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Subject: "Inside vs outdoors" Previous topic | Next topic
John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 11:11 AM
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"Inside vs outdoors"


Garretson, US
          

So, I'm not doing as well consistently with indoor shots or kid shots as I do with out door shots. I assume that because I am trying to get some of that broken and kids are notoriously hard to get still it is a challenge e even for more experienced photographers. I also know I need a good flash I haven't yet purchased. But I want to make sure I am setting things up correctly. I don't go in knowing what I want I kind of juggle between the magic three trying to get a happy balance so my exposure is ok and I tweak the exposure compensation if I need to brighten things up a bit. I know I am working with to slow a shutter but with out better lighting I fell stuck and I try to keep the ISP at or below 800. D3200 maybe I could get a bit higher there. I don't know. Not in a spot to download yesterday's shot but I will put up a couple as soon as I can. Thanks for any comments! Bertotti

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Subject Author Message Date ID
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blw Moderator
01st Nov 2012
1
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SheriB Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
3
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John Bertotti Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
6
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John Bertotti Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
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blw Moderator
01st Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
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blw Moderator
01st Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
11
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aolander Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
01st Nov 2012
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mklass Platinum Member
01st Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
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John Bertotti Silver Member
02nd Nov 2012
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blw Moderator
02nd Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
03rd Nov 2012
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MEMcD Moderator
04th Nov 2012
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John Bertotti Silver Member
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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-12 12:26 PM
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#1. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

> I'm not doing as well ... with indoor shots or kid shots

In what way are they not as good?

> I assume that because I am trying to get some of that broken

???

> I tweak the exposure compensation

Say more about this? I think it's part of your problem.

> I know I am working with to slow a shutter but with out better lighting I fell stuck and I try to keep the ISP at or below 800.

You're too afraid of noise. A noisy image that's sharp and focused is far better than a nice clean, noise-free blur. You can't fix motion blur in post processing, but you can do something about noise.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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SheriB Silver Member Awarded for sharing her exceptional images and details of rural farm life. Nikonian since 11th Sep 2010Thu 01-Nov-12 01:29 PM
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#3. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

>> I assume that because I am trying to get some of that
>broken
>
>???
I am betting he meant bokeh and possibly auto correct took over...

Sheri Becker

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 03:47 PM
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#6. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 3


Garretson, US
          

Yep that's it, I have a love hate relationship with auto correct.

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 03:44 PM
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#4. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 1


Garretson, US
          

Afraid of noise? Could be, I don't notice the noise as much as most people so I try hard to limit it. I should spend a day shooting high ISO and see how it works out. These pics were ok but I was seated 30' back or more. I had the 55-200 on and it was at 200 most of the time. I was hoping for sharper images. Probably the hand holding and small on oars flash didn't help. I will get a couple uploaded when I get home. So far I have only seen them in the camera and may be I was just zooming in to much on that screen? I hope.

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-12 05:31 PM
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#8. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 4


Richmond, US
          

> 30' back ... on oards flash

Assuming that this means "on board flash" you are probably getting almost no contribution from the flash. 30 feet is just too far for that little flash to make a difference. Even at ISO 800.

> I had the 55-200 on and it was at 200 most of the time.

That means that the lens is f/5.6 max. Presumably that's the aperture in use. It's not the best situation for low light, which is what most indoor things end up being.

> I was hoping for sharper images.

I'll guess that your shutter speed was probably 1/60th? It may be that you're getting "ghosts" due to the combination of ambient and flash exposure, or more likely there is subject motion. Did you have VR turned on? If so, at least you could be reasonably certain that you don't have additional contribution from camera motion.

> hand holding

Assuming you had VR turned on, and since I can easily guess that your shutter speed is 1/60th (the maximum shutter speed permitted by default when flash is detected), you probably aren't having the traditional "hand holding" problem, which is camera motion. Ordinarily you'd expect to need - on average skill levels - to need about 1/300th to get a good result at 200mm on DX. VR, which this lens has (as opposed to VR-II or the newest VR-III) gets you two to three stops of improvement, so 1/300 -> 1/150th -> 1/75 -> 1/40th or so. So 1/60th is probably fine for hand holding in this context.

> So far I have only seen them in the camera and may be I was just zooming in to much on that screen? I hope.

Usually I find that they look better on the camera than on the computer later - it's much easier to see the issues on a bigger screen.

> sharper images

Did you check the focus lock in? There should be an option somewhere in the menus to show you which AF target was locked on - I know it's on almost every other camera, so I assume it's on the D3200 too. It is often the case that "not sharp" images are the result of "not in focus" and either getting the wrong AF target or not having any of them locked on is a primary contributor to that problem. You can also check this once it's in the computer by loading an original out-of-the-camera file into ViewNX2 and asking it to show focus points.

_____
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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 06:59 PM
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#9. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 8


Garretson, US
          

I think all your points are right on. I don't have room on my laptop for views nx2. I have to load in a few pics then work them then back them up right away, one reason it hasnt been done yet is I just don't have the time ate moment. In thinking about it 35 feet was probably on the close side. How long is a basketball court? I was about 2/3 that far away when I take into account everyone was on a stage at the opposite end. I should have held off the post until I had some pics downloaded and ready to,go, sorry for that!

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-12 08:25 PM
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#10. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 9


Richmond, US
          

> In thinking about it 35 feet was probably on the close side.

I think you're right.

> How long is a basketball court?

In US junior high schools, 74 feet.

> I was about 2/3 that far away

So around 50 feet, assuming junior high school. NBA dimensions are 94 feet so even longer.

I was guessing that you'd underestimated when I read that you were at 200mm most of the time. Ordinarily one doesn't need a 200mm indoors, at least in a living room sort of situation.

> 50 feet is WAY too far for an onboard flash. It's even pretty far for a powerful external flash like an SB-910, although those can make it that far.

> basketball

You didn't mention that it was a sports situation before. Assuming that you were at 1/60th, you very definitely got subject motion, probably a LOT of subject motion. Sports involves much more active motion than, say, birthday parties, so you have to have some strategy for freezing the motion photographically. The two general strategies for this are either (1) faster shutter speeds or (2) flash. Furthermore, spots photographers have an "affectionate" name for high school gyms: "light dungeons." We'll have to see just what sort of conditions you were in from the EXIF data, but in general I'd expect that high school or junior high basketball is best shot with a very fast lens, shutter speed around 1/500th if possible, and ISO that will allow you to get the first two. Usually I hear about folks using an f/2.8 zoom lens or actually more often a 50/f1.8 or 85/f1.8. The sports pros would normally want to shoot at 1/1000th to freeze motion - on the other hand many times the pros are in better light. The NBA (as an example) has national TV lights to help, and paradoxically an f/5.6 lens may actually survive in those conditions. But when less is spent on the lights, you usually can't get away with slower lenses.

Also note that flash is not always permitted. The officials sometimes turn a blind eye to P&S flashes or the popup flashes because they really don't have that much effect down on the playing field. If you haul in an SB-910 or Mecablitz 76, everyone knows the difference the instant the flash goes off, and you may be asked not to use it. At my local minor league baseball park, I was once asked to leave for using a powerful flash. Fortunately I didn't even have a flash unit on me, and I even managed to show them a shot that I got with a big flash shadow demonstrating that the flash in question was well to my left... of course they don't ever hassle folks with the P&S because the popguns don't show up down on the field.

_____
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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 08:41 PM
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#11. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 10


Garretson, US
          

Good info, but it wasn't a sports event. It was a grade school language parade. Kids from prek to 5 th grade dress up as a word they were given, when called they show off on stage while a definition is read. My kids are little so I zoom a lot to get them. The stage is at the end of the basketball court and we were sitting back on the court as the elementary sits in front. I don't know if they would mind a big flash or not. I am going to get the sb910 shortly and work up to the faster 70-200. There may have been some shake from hand holding but I was being very careful and have been working o. My holding of the camera and pistols so I know I have gotten better. I suspect my choice to be at lower ISO was a problem, I think I ramped it up to 800 at some point then to be safe I went to auto for a few pics. I will try to get some posted by morning. Thanks!

I don't remember how I had it metered, center weighted I think and I was using only the center focus point, at least I thought I was. I will know more shortly. I did try and ev of + on a few shots to see how it would help. Anyway this all means nothing until I get some lower and see what happened. I'll be at it in a few hours. Thanks again!

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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Thu 01-Nov-12 01:06 PM
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#2. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 0


Nevis, US
          

The problem is that you don't have enough light indoors. You need to use wide apertures and higher ISO's to get the shutter speed you need to stop motion. Your 35mm f/1.8 lens would be good indoors, but you also have the problem of shallow DOF at wide apertures.

Alan

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 03:46 PM
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#5. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 2


Garretson, US
          

I need a flash and maybe a better lens? Been working towards the 70-200vrII. But the flash is going to have to come first if I keep doing these inside gym shoots of kids. I think.

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Thu 01-Nov-12 04:15 PM
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#7. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 5


Tacoma, US
          

I'd worry about the flash first, as long as where you are shooting allows it. Don't go for the cheapest, a SB-910 or used SB-900 or SB-800 is going to give you range that and SB-700 won't. And if you are "flash challenged" (like many of us) get a Nikon so you can use CLS. It will make you life easier than most 3rd party, less expensive flashes.

If you are going to stick with DX, the VI 70-200 Nikkor would work well for you and save you some money.

Mick
http://www.mickklassphoto.com
or
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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 01-Nov-12 08:47 PM
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#12. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 7


Garretson, US
          

You know I have been to the store three times to buy it but then I look at the price and walk off. I need to get Christmas done first. Once my present buying is done i'll to back. Good news is I have almost enough points saved up through travel clubs and best buy rewards to pay for it as long as I don't need it for Christmas! I find it much easier to buy for my family then for myself. Thanks!

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Fri 02-Nov-12 11:18 AM
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#13. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 0


Garretson, US
          

Ok I put several of both kids in my gallery under vocabulary parade. So please if you are willing visit my gallery link below! Thanks!

I am a bit more happy with them then I thought I would be. There is no processing done other then convert them to a small jpg for posting here. I thought they were going to be much worse. And settings for all were pretty much as BLW guessed. 1/60th, ISO 800 I must have deleted the lower ISO in camera, and some ev as much as +1.3, max aperture.

Thansk again!

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 02-Nov-12 01:20 PM
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#14. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 13


Richmond, US
          

I took the liberty of downloading one of them and popping it into LR. Auto Tone gave it +1.25 tops of exposure and it still looked a tad dark, so probably it was off by about 1.5-1.6 stops. That means that turning up the ISO to 3200 would have gotten you a good exposure, even with the limited ability of the flash. You didn't get much flash effect, as we had guessed.

When you dialed in +1.3 exposure, I'm not sure how they got brighter, but that would have been about the right amount to add. The reason I'm a little puzzled on this is that once you set ISO, the EV won't change it. And your shutter speed was up against the maximum. The aperture is physically wide open, so can't improve. And the flash is certainly at its limit, so it can't offer any more light. I would think that the ones with +EV didn't look much better, since it didn't have any options available to "command" it to be so!

As far as flash power goes... yes, an SB-910 would definitely reach that far. It's rated to 66 feet at ISO 200, with a long lens (and it knows what 200mm means). So you definitely would have been able to light it from where you were. However, a quick glance at the file you have shows redeye or its equivalent. That's because the flash is so close to the lens - and while the 910 would be further, compared to 60 feet, it's not much further away form the lens axis. You might need to do some post processing work to get rid of "bright eye" or "redeye." Ordinarily I would suggest bounce flash, but in a school gym the ceiling and walls are so far away that you'd practically need lightning in a can to do that...

As far as sharpness goes, I just used the 640x480 version so it's hard for me to evaluate, but they don't look bad. As the analysis above suggests, you are probably fine at 1/60th with the 55-200VR at full range as long as the VR is enabled - and the subjects aren't moving much, as they are not here. Add a little sharpening and a very light touch on noise reduction and they would be good to go.

As an aside, I think you can also see why I kind of freaked out about the basketball - this is EV6, not very much light. (Remember that before this I was having to reverse engineer the situation without seeing the images!) If you were to need to shoot at 1/500th, you would need 1/60 -> 1/125 -> 1/250th -> 1/500th or three more stops of light. You could get that from ISO, by going to ISO 3200 -> 6400 -> 12800 -> 26500. Of course your D3200 can't do that, and even on a D3s or D4 ISO 25600 is pretty noisy. The other alternative is to go with faster lenses. A lens that's only mildly unaffordable is the 180/f2.8, and it's two stops faster than your 55-200, so then you'd need only ISO 6400 (one stop of ISO) and two stops from the lens. If it were really basketball, though, you could be down on the floor with an 50/f1.8 or 85/f1.8 (even less money) and that's another stop, so then you could make do at ISO 3200.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sat 03-Nov-12 10:35 PM
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#15. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 14


Garretson, US
          

I need to study more I haven't fully grasped the stops thing. I know I dialed in 1.3+ EV but maybe the D3200 ignores it under certain circumstances. I know I did because the next dozen pics I took where way blown out. I need to correct all my Halloween pics of the kids. To bad it wouldn't allow the 1.3 with the flash and everything set like it was there darn things would have been closer to properly exposed. Will the more advanced camera bodies allow you to do this? Thanks for all the help!

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Sun 04-Nov-12 04:26 AM
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#16. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 15


US
          

Hi John,


>I know I dialed in 1.3+ EV but maybe the D3200 ignores it
>under certain circumstances.

The camera didn't ignore the +1.3EV. Because the Aperture was already wide open at f/5.6, the Shutter Speed was at the minimum speed, the ISO was set Manually and the built-in Speedlight fired at full power and therefore could not provide the additional 1.3EV of light required. In other words the settings were maxed out so it was impossible for the camera to add the 1.3EV to the exposure.

>I know I did because the next
>dozen pics I took where way blown out. I need to correct all
>my Halloween pics of the kids. To bad it wouldn't allow the
>1.3 with the flash and everything set like it was there darn
>things would have been closer to properly exposed. Will the
>more advanced camera bodies allow you to do this?

When the settings are maxed out, in order to gain more light you must change at least one perameter:
1. Use a faster lens to provide a larger maximum aperture.
2. Turn up the ISO by 1.5-2 stops.
3. Increase the flash power by using a more powerful Speedlight or Speedlights.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sun 04-Nov-12 05:43 AM
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#17. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 16


Garretson, US
          

There is my other problem, I didn't understand how EV works. I figured it just put a bias on the sensor to make the picture brighter. I didn't understand that it was tweaking the physical parameters in some way. Thanks!

I am beginning to think I should buy one of the D3200 books at B&N. apparently I need to learn the camera functions better! Thanks again!

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 04-Nov-12 07:27 AM
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#18. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 17


Richmond, US
          

> I am beginning to think I should buy one of the D3200 books at B&N. apparently I need to learn the camera functions better!

It's more that you're not understanding the fundamentals of photography than the operation of the camera. Your problem is the same whether you have a D3200, a D4, a 1959 Nikon F - or a Leica or Hasselblad. So a better suggestion is to get a copy of Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson.

After you digest that, the next step would be a book on the D3200. My recommendation on that front - and it is definitely the second step, not the first - is a book on the operation of the camera.

> I figured it just put a bias on the sensor to make the picture brighter.

What you were figuring amounts to asking it for higher ISO. But in this case you set the ISO to 800, so there's no more "biasing" to be done. Had the ISO been set to Auto, dialing in +1.3 would have effectively changed ISO to 2000. (+1 would have been 1600.)

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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SheriB Silver Member Awarded for sharing her exceptional images and details of rural farm life. Nikonian since 11th Sep 2010Sun 04-Nov-12 09:16 AM
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#19. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

I second "Understanding Exposure" Go on Amazon and get a copy.
I have lent my copy out to one or two relatives who bought DSLR cameras ( after using a P&S or cell camera only) and then were coming to me because they were so confused.It is very easy for anyone to understand yet for those of us who had come back to photography after many years it was a good refresher course.

Sheri Becker

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sun 04-Nov-12 10:21 AM
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#20. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 19


Garretson, US
          

BLW, Sheri, one step ahead of you I have Brian Petersons Digital Photography and Understanding exposure. Working my way through it now! Thanks for the heads up good to know I'm reading a book others like!

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sat 10-Nov-12 07:09 PM
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#21. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 20


Garretson, US
          

Well I just picked up the SB910. Trying it first with AA batteries but if I use it much will it make sense to get the battery pack? Also have Understanding Flash to read through.
Thanks Bertotti

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sat 10-Nov-12 09:07 PM
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#22. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 21
Sat 10-Nov-12 10:06 PM by John Bertotti

Garretson, US
          

Wow what a difference, just set it to ttl and voiced of the ceiling but the quality is definitely better. Now back to reading and experimenting.



Edit to add: big flash, little camera = the inability to let the camera hang from the strap around my neck without it flipping over. Yea, I know, I should have expected that! I might have to make an auxiliary strap a bit higher up to hold it in place.

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sat 24-Nov-12 02:30 PM
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#23. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 22


Garretson, US
          

New twist for me but now that I have this flash my need for the 70-200 is diminished as the flash is working well. Now I am back to hankering for the 14-24 f2.8!

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 06-Dec-12 12:13 PM
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#24. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 14


Garretson, US
          

Sorry to dig this up but I think I figured out why the on a shot my +1.3 ev helped, it didn't of course but in a gym full of parents there are a lot of flashes going off! I think one or more of us shot at the same time so it was an unintentional off camera flash addition! Not the first time I have had this happen but I usually notice the extra flash when I shot and don't remember it this time.

Maybe keeping this in mind will help others? Later Bertotti

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PRSS Registered since 10th Apr 2012Mon 10-Dec-12 02:54 AM
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#25. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 24


IN
          

IMHO, for photographing children indoors, I suggest you try renting a 50mm wide aperture FX Nikkor or a 85mm wide aperture FX Nikkor. Use the flash as slow sync (assuming you have decent ambient lighting). Use the flash as fill in. Better use a more powerful flash off the camera on its own tripod. Better that the flash has a soft box attached to it.

If you can get the children more closer to a corner of the room, you get bounced light from both the corner walls which soften the harshness of the flash and the sharp shadows behind the subjects(assuming with a single flash). If the walls have pre-dominant colours definitely you will get them reflected too. You may have to do a lot of post pro to get rid of the color cast.

Or if you can take the trouble of hanging two white cloths (juat ordinary bedsheets) or make somebody hold them for you - both at 45 degree (app) angles, this would give you a nice result. All these have to be done in such a way that it covers the area where the kids are moving about.

What I have told you is a simple home setup - not a professional one with multiple umbrella lights etc. which calls for an entirely different work flow. I never use the built-in on camera flash for this kind of photography.

This is my 2 cents of advice.

With best regads
PRSS

  

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Mon 10-Dec-12 03:02 AM
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#26. "RE: Inside vs outdoors"
In response to Reply # 25
Mon 10-Dec-12 03:05 AM by John Bertotti

Garretson, US
          

Bet that would work great but this is during a school show. I don't have the freedom to move the kids, get close, or have external lights, it would be very frustrating for the several hundered other parents if I tried something like that let alone how disruptive it would be for the kids during their show. Now, at home, I have been trying stuff like you suggested. It does get the job done! Thanks Bertotti



Just adding a funny note: my indoor photography is getting better! My out door, now that the snow has landed, has gone down hill. The bright snow is kicking butt. I have already asked about this in the exposure forum but added it here because I find it ironic how things to right around! Now indoors is good outside bad. Doh!

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