I am asking this question cause I ran into somebody that is charging people a large sum of money for pictures I would consider to not be nice...well something I wouldn't have paid for. I am not trying to be a jerk or a critic, as I have no room to say otherwise considering my photos aren't the greatest and latest (far from it actually), but this individual has been charging people around town a large sum of money.

When would you think it's ok to start charging people? I personally have not even thought of the notion considering only about 70% of my shots have been shoot to print type of exposures (and that’s going by my own analogy here, so I am sure the number is even lower). I would feel like #### charging anybody when most of my shots cannot be used.

I personally feel like I need to apprentice or learn for a few years at the very least (workshops, college and so on) before I could see myself feeling comfortable charging anybody (feel like I put in some time for experience). Even now some has offered money and I turned it down and offered to do it for free...just to gain experience.

on the flip side, if people are paying this person..then why should they not? But wouldn't this said photographer ruin his/her reputation or credibility?

I guess to sum up the question, but what have you done and when do you think it's appropriate to become a paid photographer?...basically what would you consider set standards?

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Be careful of doing work for free as that practice can spread by word of mouth and people will come to expect it from you. Same with using an extremely low fee.

I do not currently do session type work, I may in the future, but I am not ready at this point.

I do offer selected images for sell as prints and that is as far as I go now.

Mike in Alaska

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You raise several points that have to do with the way a person wants to conduct their life and business and the way they want to treat people. I suppose that's a personal issue that each must come to terms with.

I wouldn't worry about what that person is doing. If he is charging for an inferior product and his customers don't know the difference, than everyone suffers and I suspect it would eventually get him into sticky situations if his product isn't up to high standards.

Yes, I worry about reputation and credibility. So, I started charging when I felt I had acquired the skill, knowledge and experience to offer the best to my clients. And, I WANTED to take the next step and become a professional. Some of this decision has nothing to do with your skill and product. There are many, many incredibly talented photographers who are amateurs--they simply do not have the interest in going pro and charge for their work.

That said, the quality of your work is of course important too. If you go pro and your work isn't up to a certain level, then you will deal with unhappy customers and your own credibility if you fail to deliver--every time. And you probably won't be very successful in the long run.

You say you would feel bad for charging if your shots can't be used? Then, you're not ready. There's nothing wrong with offering photos to someone for free for the experience if you are not a professional. You are not competing with professionals at that point because the person asking is not looking for a professional. Yes, in a round about way it impacts our potential customer base, but that's a much larger issue.

I think it's encouraging that you feel you need to gain more experience and knowledge before you'd be comfortable with charging people. To me, that says you recognize that your work should be at a certain level before offering your services. That's integrity and will serve you well in the future.

At the end of the day, decide if becoming a professional and charging for your work is a goal. If so, then get the experience and skills so that you can offer a quality product to your clients. I knew I was ready because I was confident I could offer top notch results every time--and, I wanted it.

Again, don't worry about the other person. Don't let his potential problems be yours. Be the best first and it will make subsequent decisions and steps that much easier.

Finally, if you take that next step, you'll have to consider the business side of charging for your work or making a go at a business. This involves legal matters such as licenses and taxes, networking and marketing, inventory and client relations. Many pros will tell you, as it is for me, that we spend more time on the business side than we do on the creative, picture-taking side.

Dan L.
http://www.danlarussophotography.com/

Thank you for the honest feedback! it's much appreciated.

That sounds like a solid plan. and to be honest with you, i am not too sure if i will ever want to make something i would consider a hobby my business. Then i would imagine there is a fine line....

For instance i will use my wife as an example...she gets so worked up as to what shot she wants, but yet there is something i personally wanted to chase down and shoot..so i can imagine what it would be like with people who you are not even related to and want specific to the point photos...which just might take the fun right out of the hobby now called a business lol

I guess when my skills are good enough (to my own standards) where i won't have to worry, maybe then it won't be as much as a burden or a concern to take simple shots. That will probably be a few years down the line..lol

I was also worried about doing things for free...but i figured what will they get upset about? it's for free, also if i don't feel like doing a shoot, i can decline cause they aren't paying for my services...so i am hoping that shouldn't be too much of a concern.

I wasnt really upset with the ther said photographer, but more so wondering what pre-requisites people should have before even considering..like i have never heard of a baseline or a minimum requirement, or maybe a degree may be one of them, but that still doesnt garuntee much of anything i would think, so i was just wondering.

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I feel your pain. Recently I offered up some images to the county Farm and Natural Lands Trust, for free, to use in their promotional videos, website, FB page etc. I believe in the idea of saving open spaces, especially in my area where I have seen big bad changes in the last 17 years.And since I live and work on one of the preserved properties I can take the shots when the conditions are ripe. Anyway I sent a link to my galleries to the Operations manager.She loved what she saw, said she would forward to the guy in charge of that end.THEN she said she loved my work and would I be willing to sell her some prints to hang in her home..
I was flabbergasted.I am not sure I am ready to take that step either. One thing to sell a farm/horse related image to a magazine or two for an article but to have someone ask that wants to hang your stuff in their home. NO idea what to ask ( never priced art in a gallery around here.Plus it seems photography is rarely exhibited..not the right equipment to make sure my image is even PP'd/color corrected to be printed..So I am thinking about telling her I will gladly give her what she wants for cost of printing (local camera shop does custom printing and can help me out in house with the pp'ing)..so am I shooting myself in the foot if say in a year I feel I have learned more, gained more confidence and do want to try to start selling?I have horse friends begging me to shoot for them..again..I have NO business training ..no concept of how to charge etc etc..so common sense say NO don't do it..
edited to add-- It is hard when you see everyone with a camera trying to make a business at it. And see images that make you think "I can do so much better by just knowing how to adjust my exposure" I read a blog post where someone who was trying to do it the 'right' way would get so frustrated when she would see people posting snapshots on FB and people 'oohing and ahhing' over them.She wondered if anyone even cares what makes a good photograph anymore..

Sheri Becker

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I don't claim to be an expert either, but I see what some people have for wedding and/or family portraits that they have paid quite a lot of money for, and I am horrified. Not only at the quality of the photos, but at the fact that anyone claiming to be a pro would sell them, and that people actually think they are worth buying.

Keep in mind that most people do not have an educated eye to know what to look for in a good, bad or mediocre photo. For instance, I'm probably the only one who noticed that in my son & DIL's wedding photos, the bridesmaid's dresses are 3 different shades of blue, depending on whether they were inside, in the sun, or in the shade outdoors. And the skin tones are totally inconsistent--my son had a dark tan, in some of the pics he looks very yellow, in some he is very red. Or if anyone did notice, they didn't think there was anything the photographer could have done to prevent it. There were also issues with blown-out highlights and underexposed shadows in almost every photo.

So far as WHEN you should charge--I think it would be when YOU are satisfied that you would be happy to have someone put one of your photos on their wall, and tell people that YOU took it.

When it comes to wedding and family photos, there is more and more of a trend for a photographer to charge for the photo session, and then give the client a CD or DVD with the photos on it. Then the client can have them printed as desired. Some photographers who do this will also offer prints from a pro-quality lab as an added service. This setup is becoming pretty common in this area, and quite honestly, as a client I like it much more than a "traditional" arrangement of a smaller fee for the session, and then the client paying a very high price for prints. Less hassle for everyone involved.

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This is what I have been doing occasionally for family and friends, usually as a wedding gift to the couple. Up until now, I would photograph the event (shooting film), have prints made, and have disks made for family members. Now that I have gone digital, I can see the same process becoming even smoother and more streamlined--it will be nice to see images immediately.

James

I think the FIRST requirement is to know what you don't know. If you don't know that - and yes I am serious - then your probably in trouble about the time you take the job.

The second requirement, assuming you're not trying to feed the family this way, is that you know that you can get the shot when the chips are down. Getting paid for this is a form of commitment, and you need to be able to honor that.

Finally, the next requirement (I was going to say last but I'm not sure) is that you are confident that the results will hold up to the higher of your standards and the customer's. I might even add the standards of the market. Even if the customer is willing to accept what you would describe as lower grade work, YOU have to be comfortable with that work being on display somewhere, making your reputation. That's also true of the market - whatever is out there makes your reputation. When I wrote my first book, I discovered that the value of that book (to me) was that, in effect, thousands of people read my resume. I never thought of it in that way as I was writing it, but in the 15 years since then, that has become extremely clear.

#1 and especially #2 are a little different if someone is buying a print. In those cases, many of the variables and risks are already past in time, so #3 is the primary consideration.

Note that #3 is, to a degree, a form of #1. I take very few paid jobs (or even unpaid jobs) because I am very, very aware that a few years ago I sold some prints. And I now realize that that was probably a mistake, because frankly they were not up to the standards of the market. I didn't know what the market really had. I cringe now when I see those files. Even now I'm pretty wary of this, although with five more years of experience I'm at least a fair bit closer to those standards. (As an aside, I come from a family whose standard for achievement can be summarized by the not-very-funny joke from UC Berkeley grad students: "UCB, where your best is never good enough." A lot of my family did go to UCB and it shows in the attitudes.)

Looking around, I see a lot of #1 and #2 wanna-be pros out there. I also see an embarrassing number of #1 and #2 actual pros. Every time someone posts here on Nikonians with the question "I have a wedding job coming up in a few weeks, what lens should I get" we clearly have a #1 problem, and almost certainly we have a #2 problem as even if said magic lens appears in the fingers, it's not realistic to expect that they can meet #2.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Brian..how do you KNOW what the market has..and do you think globally or start by thinking locally? For instance, a friend who is after me to do a shoot of her horses had a local pro do a session last year. I thought the images were very nice.Not sure I could do better maybe not even as good especially with the conditions she was shooting in.( dark horse against snow) I know a few 'bigger name' (mainly horse) photographers through seeing lots of their images in our Breed publication and yes the local "was no Jane Doe" to say. But to get "Jane Doe" you would have to pay a lot more, as they are in other states, in higher demand, etc.You do get what you pay for but should the local who isn't up to the standards of Jane Doe NOT take jobs? Not everyone can afford to hire a Jane Doe to get some nice pictures of their animals ( and usually include themselves)
I told my friend I would be happy to photograph her and her horses, but I was looking at it as a learing experience and would give her what ever files she wanted to get printed.I KNOW I am not ready to hang out a shingle.

Sheri Becker

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I wish I could be more certain. In your case, you have a reference point in Jane Doe, and there are some in the publications. I ask myself if my stuff would look out of place next to Jane Doe's, or on the same page of the magazine as John Doe. After a while of surveying the field I hope one would have some notion of what the reference levels are.

Maybe I'm too conservative. But I don't like being embarrassed, even if it's later. I'd also prefer not to be like the bottom tier of whatever it is we're evaluating, even if that's the level above "gets paid." I suppose I'm arrogant enough to think that if I keep at it I'll eventually get there, but probably that's not all that realistic either.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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I guess what I am getting at is..if there is no one in an area who is as good as "Jane ..or John" and a photogrspher feels they are producing something better than the other person calling themselves a pro ( again, not saying I am at this point)..why shouldn't they charge? I think I am looking at it as a supply and demand scenario. If another photographer can provide people a better service than they have access to ( saying they do not have access to Jane or John due to cost or location) I guess I would say 'go for it'
And you keep saying you are conservative..is it being conservative, ..too judgemental of yourself..or not enough confidence..( your #1 and #2 points aside)?? I do think at some point you have to just jump in and try.It's the people that can admit failure I think will do better. I also think we here on a board like this judge our work a lot harder than someone who may walk into a gallery ..I could be wrong though..Happens a lot :-P
Thanks for your input.

Sheri Becker

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Along the lines of what is available and accessible.... that varies a LOT. I am in a very rural area with only one really good photographer in a reasonable drive. And she is SO disorganized that it's very difficult to get prints, etc from her, or even get her to call you back. The alternative is to get someone from the nearest larger city (Nashville) which is what my daughter did for her wedding. But many many people here can't afford that. They wind up going to JCPenney and then are not happy, either.

So I feel that in this context, a person who could do better than JCPenney, but charge people a modest sum, could make a little money and make people happy too. I'm not there yet.... but I may work up to it.

working on it in Middle TN
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> And you keep saying you are conservative..is it being conservative, ..too judgemental of yourself..or not enough confidence..

Could be lack of confidence. Or, put another way, fear. Some of the things I've been afraid of would surely amaze folks here at Nikonians.

> supply and demand

Another way to say it is that there's a need, so go fill it.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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"Or, put another way, fear"
Been there...doing that

Where is Lucy and her 5 cent psychiatric Booth when ya need her???

Sheri Becker

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everybody has good points...now i know why you see such a variety out there.

Sheri brought up a good point, if there is really nobody in the area...and you are pricing to your level of quality..then no harn no foul i guess.

Yesterday i went out and took shots of a friend's family (per his request) the wife was all geeked on my shots, meanwhile i was like "meh could have been more centered" or "everybody isnt in focus, i dont like this shot" my wife was blown away! (hence the reason why i do not prefer to have her with me when i am taking photos)

But i do see that as a significant difference, she just doesnt know..meanwhile i have a general idea. At the end of the day, we came out with a lot of decent shots to where i dont mind hanging any of those photos on their wall..granted i never charged them anything for my time, as what i stated earlier, i just want the experience. now maybe a few years down the road i might look back at these photos and cringe..but for now, they will do.

I guess i better explain what made me ask the question. A good friend of mine at work is got married, he asked me to photograph his wedding at the time...i gracefully declined and said to look for a nice reputable photographer so you wont get any missed shots, as i couldn't guarantee all of my shots can and will be shoot to print type of quality. he took my advice, after the wedding (2 months later) he got his photo book and a few 8X12, 20X30 and some standouts and so on..when i was at his pad, i looked at the shots, and i asked the question and i was blown away as to how much they charged them for their wedding...well i wasnt surprised about the cost, but i was surprised about the quality of photos. i didnt want to say anything as he already paid for the photos, and they got some nice moments captured for a lifetime. But i honestly feel bad cause (not trying to sound like a jerk again) i honestly feel like i could have done a better job for him.

I am running into the same dilemma in Sept time-frame..a good friend of the family is getting married and they want me to photograph their wedding..at first i declined, but then they said they dont care and want me to do it. Again, i wont charge them a thing considering they are friends of the family..and it will be more of a wedding gift and i think it will be a great learning experience and i already forewarned them lol

SO i might be one of those people coming on here in the next couple of months probably asking for some tips and pointers. I also purchased a few books on different settings and how they were achieved..proper etiquette...and so on. I am also looking at probably attending a wedding working group prior to, just so i can get everything down packed.

I think i am getting a lot of request simply because as what Sheri mentioned, a good ethical photographer is expensive now and days...plus them knowing i am not charging pretty much seals the deal LOL but i agree with what others have mentioned, over time i can see this becoming more of a hassle instead of it being something enjoyable or a learning experience and i don't want those people taking advantage of that. the same group of people i took photos of yesterday, all of a sudden are asking about their kids senior photos, kids, cars, guns..i was like "Whoa"

same thing with the retirement ceremony i am doing...now i got 3 different email asking favors and asking me how much will i charge..

it seems like the hardest thing to do is not being caught up with everything and step back and realize what do you want to be known for...that cheesy photographer, or that photographer everybody nods their head and says they highly recommend this said individual..which i think will build more cred in the long run...

in the end i guess we can all be our best and worst critic from what it seems. damn that was a novel lol

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First, even though no money is changing hands, you are still agreeing to some form of (implicit) commitment. They are counting on you to get the shots. I have found that at least my family doesn't recognize the difference. Even though I verbally clearly set expectations ("hey ya know I've never done this before, won't have the opportunity to practice in advance and don't have the necessary equipment") the expectation really is there. It's a compliment, in a way, that they have confidence that I don't. But they don't know what I don't know, and I do.

Second, just the fact that you asked the question has put you way ahead of most people. You definitely have a sense of what you don't know.

> over time i can see this becoming more of a hassle instead of it being something enjoyable

I am often asked why I don't go pro. Other than a couple of major logistical issues, the main one is that then it would be a job, and not my hobby. I have enough obligations in my life without adding the to my avocation. The major logistical issues are that I am highly unlikely to earn anything like what my day job pays in photography, and that I'm not presently up for being the chief marketing officer as well as CEO, lab monkey and janitor.

Just a comment on equipment. As you know, your gear is capable of doing plenty of great stuff. If this goes a lot further down the line, though, you will need to invest some more. Not so much in better gear, although that won't hurt. I am thinking in terms of redundancy or backup. The gear is quite reliable, but it's not perfect. Clients implicitly expect rabbits to be pulled out of hats when it's their history on the line, and a second body and other equipment becomes important.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Great points! I am like you in a sense I guess..my day job supports myself and my family, however...I am sure it doesn't pay near as much lol but still, time is not on my side considering my day job (if you want to call it a job) takes way too much time out of my day to commit to anything else. I can see myself get burnt out quick if I even considered, so I fully understand your position...and that is pretty cool that you have no stress to where you can enjoy your photography.

Thank you for the heads up! I was looking at a new body come next year, probably a D7000 considering. I can't justify another 1300-1400 dollars this year after spending money on speed lights, stands, reflectors, and a few lenses...plus we are picking up a new PC..looking at the iMac, whenever the new one comes out (should be may-June timeframe). If something breaks or doesn't work, then I guess I could rent something prior to if I get some lead time. My actual plan was to use this 3100 till the wheels fall off, or I should say till the sensor falls out lol and the only reason why I invested more so towards lighting...is because I finally figured out that it can make or break a shot and it hardly goes through upgrades...hell that SB800 is still going strong after so many years...thing is also easy to use till the battery starts to die out! Which validates your backup theory, luckily I replaced the batts in my 700 to where I had to boost it up a bit to be near the 800's level..but it held it down for the day.

That reminds me...I'm hoping it's just the batts...cause it was registering it as firing, but nothing went off. I will get new batts prior to leaving to steamboat springs...this is a used SB800, but it never gave me any problems till now....I should have just installed new batts and gave it another whirl, but instead, I just swapped out for my 700 and kicked it off all day.

When I got home, the flash fired a couple of times no problem...so I am guessing it got too hot? But it wasn't like I was firing every second, I was doing simple portraits, so I had about 5 minute breaks between each shot. I'm guessing the batteries, as it acted a bit funky before when the batteries started dying...I'm hoping my SB800 didn't die after so many years of use, well I don't want it to die off with this owner I should say....only got so much use out of this one. But it's crazy to know I pull this out over my brand new SB700, as it isn't much bigger in size (actually almost dead identicle) but packs a much better punch and it's recycle time is much better as well. So I'm crossing fingers here...

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> I can't justify another 1300-1400 dollars this year after spending money on speed lights, stands, reflectors, and a few lenses...

LOL it takes some overhead to start this as a business!

Usually folks like us who get in end up using an older model as the backup. My primary is a D3, but I still have my D2x. If you go for a d7000, you can keep your D3100 as the backup/second body if you go in the pro direction. Some folks would insist that the backup be fully equal to the primary, and there are times when that's appropriate. For most of us, though, an older body is quite sufficient. As you have discovered, even the least capable bodies do a lot. If I were doing weddings or shooting night NASCAR regularly, I suppose I'd have to consider another high ISO body, but for now I'm fine and given your emphasis on lighting I'm sure you would be too.

> SB800 weirdness

That sounds like low batteries to me. I use low-discharge NiMH rechargables and keep one spare set in the bag (for four flashes- I haven't come anywhere near running all four down in a single session).

> I'm hoping my SB800 didn't die after so many years of use

Flashes are generally very long-lived items. My vintage-1983 SB-20 is still going strong, and the only flash repair I have had to make was when I packed my SB-800 too tightly in transport and the LCD got cracked. (I used a backup SB-600 in that case, although I'd have been out of luck had I needed a commander.) This is a pretty typical story.

> SB-800 ... recycle time

The SB-700 should match or exceed the SB-800 in recycle performance. The SB-700 recycles from a full dump in 2.5 secs, the specs on the SB-800 are 6 secs with four batteries and 4 secs with five.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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LOL, you are right...however I have no intention burning this into a business as of yet...then again if request keep coming I might need to do something I don't know. A couple of people that I know of that do weddings in the Denver area, all either suggested the D700, D7000 as a low budget capable body...I was like "low budget?" that was high end to me lol then again..comparing it to your D3x and so on...I guess they can be in that low end bracket.

Not sure, but it just seemed like the 800 cycled faster, could just be me being a fan of the 800 so I probably have a mental imagination of it being faster. The 700 did its job all day so I was impressed, well actually only had to hang in there for 2 hours, but still lol

I'm hoping it was just batteries, read a couple of searches of the 800 actually going bad (not firing in ITTL mode) and needing to get sent in to Nikon for repairs....169 to 250 dollars in repair costs...I wouldn't mind paying that if I had it for 3 years...but considering I just got it in December, that would suck royally! I guess one of the draw backs of used equipment...that's if it does have problems. I took the same batts and tossed them in my 700 and they seem good to go. They did report the 800 having this problem on and off, then right before a shoot..no go. I also did read this thing is really temperamental to low batts...so again, I'm in hopes lol

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"plus them knowing i am not charging pretty much seals the deal LOL but i agree with what others have mentioned, over time i can see this becoming more of a hassle instead of it being something enjoyable or a learning experience and i don't want those people taking advantage of that. the same group of people i took photos of yesterday, all of a sudden are asking about their kids senior photos, kids, cars, guns..i was like "Whoa"

same thing with the retirement ceremony i am doing...now i got 3 different email asking favors and asking me how much will i charge.."

That is the downfall..You see many internet posts on blogs and websites cursing those of us who do not charge and I can see the point. You can possibly hurt yourself and other photographers who are trying to make a living. ( assuming your work is equal to theirs even if you do not think so.If they are 10 times better its just that no one wants to pay)It sounds to me like maybe you should start think of charging something for your time at least. Be very honest about what your abilities are, but say " I have so many people asking me to shoot that I at least need to cover my time" Charge what you make an hour at your real job.Or if the people have something you might want to barter for go the route. (what do THEY do for a living?) Decide if you are going to charge for the time spent post processing or consider that as learning. But if you keep doing things for free,everyone is going to ask..Sounds like it is already happening so you need to start touching that brake pedal and decide which direction you want to turn the steering wheel...

edited because I need to stop posting when I first wake up. I sound like I never graduated high school when I do ..

Sheri Becker

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I can see that being a problem. I should mention all of these people requesting are friends of mine...but if people ask I don't know, then I guess something needs to be considered.

What I make an hour? That might take me a few to figure out lol but it ain't much that's for sure...uncle sam is pretty low budget now and days.

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Take your annual salary and divide it by 2080 hours (52 weeks @40 hours/wk.) That is the standard way of calculating hourly rate.

Now if you are going to be reporting this as income you need to add on for self-employment tax that you will be paying. BUT if you set up as a business you can depreciate equipment, subtract expenses, to offset the income. If you don't show a profit in 3 yrs (on paper) the IRS will declare it a hobby and you can only deduct expenses equal to income, and not show a loss.

If you do decide on charging, spend a few minutes talking to an accountant. It's worth the time and money. My DD is a CPA, so she doesn't charge me.... and I wouldn't charge for family pics.

Quite honestly, I would charge anyone besides immediate family. Otherwise you will have lots of moochers wanting you to do stuff. And in my experience, people don't appreciate anything free. You will get a lot more consideration and courtesy if you charge for your time.

working on it in Middle TN
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55-300 mm Nikkor VR
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