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johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006Mon 14-Jul-08 02:27 PM
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"Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
Mon 14-Jul-08 02:28 PM by johno

St. Louis, US
          

I've been reading all of the posts about the D700 vs. D300, most of which seem to be slamming the D700 as inferior in every way except wide angle and low noise at high ISO.

(I haven't measured the number of pro or con posts, but it feels more negative than positive around here for the D700.)

When it comes to crop factor, wouldn't a teleconverter "fix" that gap?

With a teleconverter and high ISO capabilities, crop factor seems like an easy "problem" to fix.

However, I've never used a teleconverter. So I ask those here with more experience -- is a teleconverter a workable solution when using a D700 in shoots where reach is important?

Thanks,

JO



  

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jsnapp Silver Member
14th Jul 2008
1
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Noel Holland Platinum Member
14th Jul 2008
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     Reply message The second motor?
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14th Jul 2008
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21st Apr 2009
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14th Jul 2008
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14th Jul 2008
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14th Jul 2008
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                              Reply message FX crop factor killer & pixel density
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18th Jul 2008
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jsnapp Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Mon 14-Jul-08 03:13 PM
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#1. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


Stanford / Palo Alto, US
          

Your "easy problem fix" is an idea that has been brought up repeatedly when the launch o the D3 required us to re-think our rationalization that for digital DX was better than FX.

THe debate about DX vs. FX vs. any other format is one of many tradeoffs, and perfect for endless discussion here in the forums. I love it.

I think the higher level of negativity you perceive about the D700 is due to several things:

(1) Jealously , whether you own a D300 (like me) and don't want to double-down in your investment in a camera body, or you now own a D3 and feel like someone has kicked the legs out of your lofty pedestal.

(2) The strongest FX proponents already have a D3 and are most likely off enjoying their wonderful camera, or else over in the D3 forum posting about how much they enjoy it.

(3) I think there is an idealized notion "FX requires bulky glass so might as well pair with a bulky body, DX format allows for lighter equipment, and therefore a D300/(D90) will be perfect."

I am too young too have been a serious shooter with film, but it seems that 35mm film was in effect the DX format of the day. Now with the advent of higher resolution digital sensors, FX format is at least in the short term viewed somewhat like a more "medium" format, all of the emphasis on the convenience of 35mm film having fallen upon the DX format.

Radical idea: EX format! Intermediate to DX and FX. Sure to be _truly_ hated by all. (Think Canon)

  

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Noel Holland Platinum Member Winner in the Nikonians 10th Anniversary Photo Contest Charter MemberMon 14-Jul-08 03:35 PM
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#2. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 1


Epsom, GB
          

>35mm film was in effect the DX format of the day

You are indeed too young, APS was the DX format of it's day. Unfortunately in some persons eyes the disadvantages of APS have rubbed off on DX sensors (they are often called APS sized sensors)

APS suffered from the fact that any advancement in film technology to give APS a boost in quality was also automatically used in 35mm film given even better quality.

Some of the underlying physics as to why 35mm was better than APS is still just as valid today for FX versus DX. It's just that at the moment the overriding factor is the cost producing the larger sensor sizes. Medium format is even better quality than 35mm but the reason we aren't all Hasselbladians is because their cameras are 5 times more expensive again than Nikon FX cameras.

I don't think that the community as a whole is negative about the D700. In fact in many regards they are quite upbeat. Who wouldn't be upbeat with a D3 shoe-horned into a D300 sized body. But I also agree that there are some stat junkies who may be a bit miffed that there isn't even more improvement than there was (hard to get excited about and on-camera flash)

All told the D700 is in almost all regards a D3 but packaged smaller. Forgetting silly issues like the moaning about 95% viewfinder coverage which is frankly a rather stupid picky little issue, the only really significant loss is the second AF body motor for mechanical lens drive. But unless you are using mechanical AF lens it's likely not significant to you.

  

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nimike Registered since 05th Jul 2008Mon 14-Jul-08 04:04 PM
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#5. "The second motor?"
In response to Reply # 2


Prague, CZ
          

Maybe a stupid question, but D3 has two AF motors? And D700 only one? What does it mean practically? Slower focusing with non AF-S lenses? Or something else?

  

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jbloom Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Mon 14-Jul-08 05:46 PM
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#6. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 2


Wethersfield, US
          

>Medium format is even better quality
>than 35mm but the reason we aren't all Hasselbladians is
>because their cameras are 5 times more expensive again than
>Nikon FX cameras.

That, plus the 1200-mm f/2.8 lens I'd need to cart around the sidelines at the football game on my (hypothetical) H3D. Oh, and the max 400 ISO. And the one-frame-every-two-seconds speed. But other than that....

D3, D700, D300... or H3D... it's horses for courses.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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spootdad Registered since 27th Dec 2006Tue 21-Apr-09 11:13 PM
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#37. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 2


Portage, US
          

"Hasselbladians" ? Weren't they the aliens in a really bad John Travolta movie?
From the rocking of the cradle to the rolling of the hearse, the going up was worth the coming down

  

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wrdpico Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2009Wed 22-Apr-09 12:15 AM
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#38. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 37


US
          

Which really bad Travolta movie? If it's the one I'm thinking of, they were Ravoltanians. Hasselbladians were always better than that.

wrdpico

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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DKESLERFL Registered since 21st Mar 2003Mon 14-Jul-08 03:46 PM
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#3. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


Miami (Coconut Grove), US
          

I have noticed the trend as well. I keep asking myself why people come to the D700 forum just to say how they are already invested heavily in DX and have no intention of buying one. I DON"T CARE! It seems those posts would be of more interest and more appropriate in the D300/200/.* devote' areas. And some of the D3 pundits are just as screwy in their own way. I could care less whether or not one guy can't quite afford it, or another guy is buying several for his kids and an extra one to keep in his Land Rover.

I also don't care to discuss the merits of FX and DX. If a someone hasn't got all that figured out already, they certainly don't NEED a three thousand dollar FX camera.

Personally I will have both formats until it is rendered mute. When that will be I have no idea, but I do know it isn't that far off in this digital arms race we are evolved in.

Your TC logic doesn't really fly because people will say that since you have a TC it would be better served on a DX camera and give you around 2X the power for a given focal length. These are the people who like their critter pictures up close and personal. I'm one of those.

Regards,

Don Kesler

http://www.donaldkesler.com

Through the judicious use of adjustment layers, no pixels were actually harmed in the processing of my shots..

  

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mwhals Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2004Mon 14-Jul-08 03:53 PM
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#4. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


Winfield, US
          

I think it is all silly. If someone doesn't own or WANT the D700, then they should just stay out of this forum. The only posts needed in this forum are from those WANTING the D700 or those that already have the D700.

Shoot nature with respect and don't trample it or startle its inhabitants.

  

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Howgill One Registered since 29th Jul 2007Mon 14-Jul-08 08:32 PM
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#8. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 4


AU
          

"I think it is all silly. If someone doesn't own or WANT the D700, then they should just stay out of this forum. The only posts needed in this forum are from those WANTING the D700 or those that already have the D700."

I don't own a D700. Don't know anyone who does, yet

I don't know, yet, if I want one, which is why I am lurking (if not, until now, posting) in this forum. I am sure by the time I want one I'll have come up with rationalisation as to why I NEED one - mainly because I'd like my glass to keep its value and utility and to not depreciate nearly as fast as the bodies inevitably, quickly do.

So I am going to stick around here and keep but keep my own counsel for a while. That and wait for the first crop of reviews and the early adopter premium to fall off the price. It'll also be entertaining to see how any D3x specs spice up the debate. Lots of fun.

  

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mwhals Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2004Mon 14-Jul-08 08:38 PM
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#9. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 8
Mon 14-Jul-08 08:39 PM by mwhals

Winfield, US
          

The fact you are on the fence makes sense that you are here. I was referring to people who have nothing constructive to say about the D700 and have no intention of buying it.

Shoot nature with respect and don't trample it or startle its inhabitants.

  

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jbloom Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Mon 14-Jul-08 06:04 PM
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#7. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


Wethersfield, US
          

When I got my D3, I did so mostly because I can take good advantage of its high-ISO performance for much of my sports shooting. The D700 will apparently have similar performance, and anyone who wants state-of-the-art high-ISO performance would be well advised to consider those two bodies.

A TC will "fix" the crop factor "gap," but only up to a point. The stop or so better ISO performance of the FX bodies is diminished by the loss of a stop of light through the (1.4x) teleconverter. Plus, the autofocus system will also be losing that stop of light. We have yet to see whether the D700 AF system is identical to the D3, but even if it is, I haven't seen an A/B comparison of the D300 and D3 AF systems with the D3 hobbled by a TC. I suspect they will be pretty close, in which case you have paid a lot of money for a more expensive body and TC to end up with the same performance of the D300. Of course, what you do have is the option of removing the TC, having less reach but having the better high-ISO performance. I can tell you from experience that's a worthwhile trade-off in some cases. (High-school gyms and ice rinks lit by banks of fluorescent lights come to mind!)

But there is an upper limit. Once you've put a TC on the longest lens you have, you still have more reach with that pair plus the D300 than with a D3/D700. If you are a birder or other shooter where there is never enough reach, that may well be a deal-breaker.

Me, I have a D3 and a D2X. When I want maximum reach and the light permits, I go the DX route. (It would be even better with a D300.) When I want low-light performance I use the D3. When I'm in a situation where I could easily use either, I tend to opt for the D3, frequently with a TC, for its faster frame rate, better AF, better auto WB and the convenience of dual CF cards (not available on the D700). If I were starting from scratch today, I would probably opt for the D700 and D300 thanks to the considerable cost savings of the D700 vs the D3 and the marginal (for my purposes) performance differences.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 15-Jul-08 06:32 AM
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#10. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 7


San Jose, US
          

You don't get "more reach" with a DX vs FX camera. A 300 mm lens is still a 300 mm lens. The viewing angle is just cropped in the DX version. You could get the same result by cropping your FX image in photoshop, but your reach is exactly the same. I don't know why people continue to spread this incorrect information.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Tue 15-Jul-08 08:53 AM
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#11. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 10


Paignton, GB
          

It's not incorrect, Bob - it just depends on your definition of "reach".

If we are comparing the D700 and D300, then with the same lens, subject and distance, the D300 will put more pixels on the subject. For wildlife and suchlike, this can be very useful.

Your contention that there is no difference is only true if you're comparing (say) a 12MP DX camera with a 28MP FX camera.

It just shows we all need to be careful to define our terms...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Check out the Nikonians Team pages

  

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DrJay32 Moderator Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Tue 15-Jul-08 09:05 PM
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#12. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 10


Colorado Springs, US
          

All things being equal, you'd think I'd have comparable image quality between a cropped D3/D700 image and a D300 image. But all things aren't equal.

As Brian astutely points out, the D300 puts 12MP on its DX target. The FX bodies put about 5MP on its DX target. The end result? The DX body can potentially produce an image with more detail at the same print size than the FX body-- assuming you had to crop the FX image to achieve the same angle of view. Now, I agree-- this isn't technically more "reach", but I can stand farther away from a small bird if I couple a 300mm lens with a D300 instead of a D3 and still get lots of good detail.

-Jason


Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, The Photographer's Guide to Capture NX2
The authoritative guide to Capture NX 2.0!

www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

  

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jbloom Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Tue 15-Jul-08 11:48 PM
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#13. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 12


Wethersfield, US
          

>Now, I agree-- this isn't technically more
>"reach", but I can stand farther away from a small
>bird if I couple a 300mm lens with a D300 instead of a D3 and
>still get lots of good detail.

Isn't that the very definition of "reach"?

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 08:03 AM
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#16. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 12


San Jose, US
          

Jason and Brian I agree that if you crop a 12 MP FX image down to the field of view of a 12 MP DX image you have less pixels in the image. That is an issue of image quality and even then I am not sure that considering that an FX image has a higher dynamic range that it is a one to one comparison. What I am objecting to is people talking about how a DX camera magically turns their 300 mm lens into a 450 lens giving them more "reach". I believe the image in the equivelent DX area of the FX image will be the same size as the DX image. The fact that you now crop and blow up the image to achieve the same field of view would effect the quality of the image, but the "reach" is no greater. Maybe I am just objecting to sloppy terminology. If people would explain the differences as you two have as more effective pixels on the image of interest, I would find that more accurate.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 09:23 AM
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#17. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 16
Wed 16-Jul-08 09:38 AM by KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
          

Bob, I'm not too concerned with terminology, but results are what counts. Try going out and shooting medium to small birds (not eagles, pelicans, herons) in the wild not at feeders. There will be a large difference in results between 12 megapixel FX and DX. So here's the terminology - "There is a large difference in results achieved". It's more convenient to just say better reach.

For photographers not pushing the reach envelope, FX is fine, great even - I want a D700 too for my non-super telephoto endeavors

For the OP, at the telephoto magnifications I am talking about, you already need a super-telephoto with teleconverter on DX. So yes, FX at 12 megapixels is a compromise even with a teleconverter. That's why I see a need for a FX/DX kit for the next many years (at least until the 27 megapixel FX sensor- but even then we would be talking about shooting wide and cropping heavily in post, something that may cause difficulty in getting the focussing point in the exact right place for super telephoto usage).

I am not negative about the D700 (or FX), but see it as better used in combination with DX for anyone who needs serious telephoto. For people photography (and many other uses) you can probably get away with an FX-only kit, but even for everyday use for example the 24-70mm on the D700 and 70-200mm on the D300 would make a pretty powerful duet. Also, if there were to be yet another advance in noise handling, I will probably immediately sell my D300 and purchase the improved DX sensor, because for me, most of my low-light photography is when I have a telephoto mounted. Hmm a D800FX/D400DX kit sounds just about right

SteveK
My Nikonians gallery
'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange

  

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jbloom Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Wed 16-Jul-08 11:59 AM
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#18. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 16


Wethersfield, US
          

The problem here isn't sloppy terminology, it's sloppy reading. It was my post you objected to, and I never said anything about DX changing the focal length of the lens, magically or otherwise.

I've always taken "reach" to mean, "how far away can I be and still fill the frame with the subject." I think this is the colloquial meaning in general use. This distance is dependent on the size of the subject and the camera's field of view. There are two components involved in field of view: the focal length of the lens and the size of the sensor. On that basis, a lens of a given focal length has more "reach" on a DX sensor than on an FX sensor, which is what I implied when I said I use the DX body to obtain more reach.

You seem to think "reach" is dependent solely on focal length, and a given lens would have the same "reach" on a 35-mm film body and a 4x5 view camera. I frankly can't think of a definition of "reach" that would make sense of that.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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Howgill One Registered since 29th Jul 2007Wed 16-Jul-08 12:31 PM
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#19. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 18


AU
          

Reach smeach. Sounds like you all actually agree on the facts but are simply (ok not simply!) describing them in understandably different ways because you are looking at the same thing from different perspectives. Don't get me wrong I am not complaining. I am learning a lot from this discussion which'll help inform my decision about whether or not I "need" a D700 and whether or not I "need" to keep my D300. Then there's how much in or out of reach of my budget the D700 will be. Me and the Mrs may then have an interesting discussion about reach. Unlike the D200/300 upgrade the D700 doesn't lend itself to stealth purchase on account of its distinctive finder and that little gold FX. That and she might notice I've got two cameras!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 17-Jul-08 02:28 AM
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#29. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 18
Thu 17-Jul-08 02:37 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

I certainly didn't intend to get into a pissing contest on terminology. I probably should not have used the term sloppy terminology. And if I am guilty of sloppy reading, I am sorry, but if you are defining reach as "how far away can I be and still fill the frame" so be it. So seeing that most of the people in this forum hold your view as to the definition of "reach", I decided to see how universal it was and did a Google search. What I think I found is you are using the term in a way that can be confusing. Here is what I came up with:

http://www.idahoairships.com/2007/07/18/crop-factor-sensors-lens-reach-and-the-tooth-fairy/

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

These people are certainly more expert than me. But if you guys are happy with your "reach" definition, I don't think it worth my time or anyone else's to argue about it. You just won't find me using the term that way.

And if I do buy a D700, which I think I will within a year, I still intend to keep my D200. I agree with other posters that a DX FX combo makes sense. I used an F3HP for a very long time and shot slides. I was happy with the fact that my long lens acted as I expected and my wide lenses were wide. In fact I am sorry I sold it when I went digital,as I miss the build quality, the interchangeble viewfinders and the 100% viewfinder.



Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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jbloom Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Tue 15-Jul-08 11:51 PM
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#14. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 10


Wethersfield, US
          

Brian and Jason have explained why using a 12-MP DX body instead of a 12-MP FX body does indeed give more effective "reach." I didn't explain that because after all of the discussions we've had about this subject on this forum, I didn't think it was necessary. My mistake.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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heseltine Registered since 10th Jan 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 01:53 AM
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#15. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 14


CA
          

I have decided not to buy the D700 because the frame coverage is less than the F6 or the D3 (approx. 95% ((vertical/horizontal) what ever that means). So, I'll stick to my recently bought F3 (egad, man, are you crazy?). I bought the FM years ago and though it was a brilliant camera I had many problems with framing. Wish I'd bought the F2. Had no money. Now I have. But not for a 95% frame coverage. Come on Nikon. Get it right. Make the D300a with full frame.

Mark

  

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Mike in Kansas Registered since 12th Mar 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 01:10 PM
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#20. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 15


Olathe, US
          

If I am not mistaken, it is the viewfinder that has 95% covereage in the vertical and horizontal. In other words, if the image has an object that comes up to the edge of the viewfinder, the captured image will have another 2.5% extra image on either side. I hope I am explaining that correctly... You're still capturing a full frame (24mm nominal by 36mm nominal) image.

  

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Howgill One Registered since 29th Jul 2007Wed 16-Jul-08 01:25 PM
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#21. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 20


AU
          

"he captured image will have another 2.5% extra image on either side"

Which could be seen as a small margin for error or not wysiwyg depending on your priorities and framing ability. Personally I'd rather have 100 percent even though I frequently frame slightly too tight. But I don't feel it's not a deal breaker.

  

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kvandall Registered since 05th Jan 2009Tue 21-Apr-09 01:46 PM
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#32. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

I shoot primarily indoor basketball and outdoor soccer. D700 is awesome for indoor basketball for all the reasons you said. My back up camera body is a D80. For outdoor soccer am I better off using the D80 or the D700. I am struggline with the loss of the crop factor but don't know enough technically to know for OUTDOOR SOCCER ONLY whether I am better served to use the D80 and lose ISO or get a 1.4 teleconverter and lose an f/stop.

Any have any insight???

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mwhals Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2004Tue 21-Apr-09 02:16 PM
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#33. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 32


Winfield, US
          

This might be better asked as a new thread. You posted in an old thread, which will likely result in much less help.

Shoot nature with respect and don't trample it or startle its inhabitants.

  

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kvandall Registered since 05th Jan 2009Tue 21-Apr-09 02:28 PM
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#34. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 33
Tue 21-Apr-09 10:38 PM by kvandall

US
          

thanks.

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Tue 21-Apr-09 05:23 PM
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#35. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 32
Tue 21-Apr-09 05:26 PM by TiggerGTO

Apex, US
          

Moved my response to the new thread started for this topic.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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gcarr Registered since 25th Dec 2006Wed 22-Apr-09 02:35 AM
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#40. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 32


Toronto, CA
          

What lenses are you using with the D700? I have a D80 and considering the D700 as well.
Gary

  

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kvandall Registered since 05th Jan 2009Wed 22-Apr-09 04:13 AM
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#43. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 40


US
          

I have f/2.8 70-200 VR.

You have to have the D700 if low lighting without question (e.g basketball) as the D80 ISO does not get it done, but the loss of the crop factor for soccer is a really big factor to consider unless you are prepared to buy a longer high-quality lens.

If you plan to shoot night soccer under lights you will hit the same wall with the D80 as I did with indoor basketball when I did not elect to use remote flashes, which is not an option with soccer.

Note, I have only tried one week of soccer with D700 but losing 1.5 means cropping everything. For me, that just isn't a realistic long-term option so you either have to teleconvert it, crop it or spring for a really, really expensive lens.

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nrothschild Moderator Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Wed 16-Jul-08 03:59 PM
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#22. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

In addition to all the above, adding a TC usually requires you to stop down to get the same IQ as the raw lens, and arguably you may never get the same image quality regardless of how much you stop down. The amount you need to stop down depends on your expectations as well as the lens, of course, so there is no pat answer there, except I think most long lens shooters would agree that, given a certain number of pixels across the target from a given distance, (note that I avoided the dreaded R word ) they'd rather shoot without a TC than with it.

Even without regard for the issues of a TC, in principle you can find faster glass in shorter focal lengths. For example, for the same FOV, it would be better to shoot with a 200/2 than a 300/2.8. It would be better to shoot with a 300/2.8 than a 500/4, which would put almost the same number of pixels across the target. When you get into the larger exotic glass, there are tremendous benefits to smaller lenses (300/2.8 vs 500/4) in terms of handling. At the very extremes, there is essentially no production lens faster/longer than a 600/4 (other than a $30K 30LB Sigma monster recently introduced) so there you can't just get a longer lens or use a more powerful TC.

Interestingly, it all works in reverse at the wide end, where you can go wider, faster, with an inherently less noisy FX sensor (given equal pixel count), making that a double winner with everything working in your favor. That's because the fastest lenses are in the "normal to mildly wide" range, with lens speed tapering off at either extreme. Even more interestingly, you need to use out of production lenses (such as the 28/1.4 AF-D, 28/2 Ai 35/1.4 Ai) to fully achieve this, highlighting that there is more work to be done in the lens lineup to fully take advantage of FX.

Neil

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johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 04:31 PM
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#23. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 22
Wed 16-Jul-08 07:41 PM by johno

St. Louis, US
          

Thank you all.

I ask as an early adopter who has already ejected from DX having unloaded my lenses, and one who likes the D300 enough that I have some seller's remorse before the D300 is yet sold.

There are many technical considerations here that I don;t have the knowledge to fully evaluate, but the discussion has expanded my understanding.

I don;t know to be worried or not about 95 percent view, or the .72 magnification in the D700 that is close to the .70 viewfinder magnification of the D3.

I don;t like the compact flash door appearing flimsier, but maybe that's OK.

What I do know is that one of the biggest challenges I face as a photographer who lacks a full technical comprehension that I shold have -- that intuitive sense of how to use DOF (edit: also aperture) and shutter speed for maximum artistic effect in any given situation -- one of the biggest challenges I face is not capturing birdies far away (although candid beach shots on Maui are of some long-reach interest) -- The biggest challenge I seem to face is control of light, which is all too often suboptimal.

For all of the talk of DX vs. Fx and a 200 lens acting like a 300 on the camera, which is nice -- close or far is seldom my problem -- it is light.

My hope is that the FX sensor and having the wides work like wides will expand my light envelope, and reduce the shadow noise I notice on my Dx shots -- and allow a faster shutter speed to counter my aging grip.

If I am off track on any of this, please let me know your thoughts.

This is very hard, because the D300 is such a wonderful camera. But unfortunately I can not afford to own --- nor wish to carry -- both. And I found shooting 35 MM cameras "felt" better.

I am clear on a TC being a compromise, althought I may be tempted to try one to make the advice more real, so to speak.

Thanks again,

JOhn Osthus

  

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nrothschild Moderator Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Wed 16-Jul-08 05:08 PM
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#24. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 23
Wed 16-Jul-08 05:09 PM by nrothschild

US
          

Hi John,

>> The biggest challenge I seem to face is control of light, which is all too often suboptimal.

I think you need to expand on that and precisely define your problems and how that light is "suboptimal".

A D700 will not help you with your birdies, especially if you don't have unlimited amounts of money to throw at the problem (which is assumed in some of these more or less theoretical discussions). It might help you with your wide end, or it might not. For example, if you are shooting wide at higher than the base ISO and getting noise, the D700 might help you if you have to shoot hand held. If you shoot at the base ISO from a tripod that levels the playing field to at least a great extent. Personally, I have my own tiny birdie problems so an FX as my only body would be a bad trade-off for me. It would be a great low light body but the cost/benefit ratio for me is still too steep. I can always shoot from a tripod for low light wide work(*), but extending my effective reach on the long end is a very expensive proposition at this point, and if I did spend that money I would want to put as many pixels across my birdies as possible.

(*) a tripod doesn't solve subject motion problems, though; it's a very complex set of trade-offs

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that TC's are evil- for wildlife I shoot with them much more than not, as a necessity. In my post above I was only thinking about optimizing things, not what we do in the real world. Given your conflicting requirements at both ends of the focal length spectrum, the most sensible path would be to get a good TC and see how you like it- they are cheap compared to the FX decision. You can then better gauge the impact on your decision, and you will get some more "reach" in the meantime on your DX sensor.

Neil

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johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 07:46 PM
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#25. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 24


St. Louis, US
          

By light problems, I mean shots in low light, for example, my daughter on a moving swing in the afternoon shade.

Also, for clarity -- for me photography is a passion, but not a profession. Anything more than a P&S for me is want vs need. I happen to get a lot of satisfaction out of owning good equipment. And I get shots I could not possibly capture with a P&S.

So again, the enregy around the D700 feels very negative. Will this camera be awful to own or something?

  

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nrothschild Moderator Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Wed 16-Jul-08 08:55 PM
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#26. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 25


US
          

I think you are mis-reading the sentiment, as was mentioned by other(s) above. It can't be "awful". It may not be the best solution for you. It will get you the fastest shutter speed with the least noise that you can possibly get for your daughter's swing pictures. It may not be the best solution for your birds. If it were me I would get the D300, shoot your daughter in the sun, get the TC, and get some great bird shots . If my wallet was the size of my passion, I would buy both and use them accordingly (really).

I've followed these DLSR developments since the D70 was introduced. For years, people moaned about DX because their lenses didn't "look" and behave as they did on FF film bodies. All they wanted was FX. You just couldn't seriously shoot a DX sensor. This is all in the various Internet archives; just go back to 2004-5 or so.

Four years later, a lot of people have adjusted, they've put some money into DX lenses that get their FOV back more or less where it was (but the lenses still do behave a tad differently in terms of DOF) and a lot of them discovered that DX is not such a nasty thing when it comes to long lens shooting.

Other people feel "betrayed" or whatever, because they sense that they are being footballed about from FX lenses to DX lenses and then back to FX. That's all part of being on the bleeding edge of the DSLR tech revolution.

Some people just plunked down $5K on a D3 because they didn't have a cheaper FX solution and feel somewhat betrayed. I guess in that case Nikon can do no right and put too many nice features in the D700

Other people feel obligated to have the latest and greatest. Nikon pulled a triple whammy (D300/D3/D700) in a short period of time and made that an expensive avocation. I take a long term view. With each successively lower FX body, my goal of a sub $2K FX body gets closer and closer.

You have to read the comments in light of all the above, and put it in some context. I can't even begin to articulate the impact that I see from the shift from a FF film world to a DX only world, and now back to a hybrid world. The above is a gross oversimplification and I think both formats have compelling advantages for pushing various envelopes, yet neither is a "perfect" solution that optimizes all worlds.

If you want a single body solution you just have to compromise on those basic contradictory optimizations, among other possible considerations. And ignore most of this gnashing of teeth going on now

Neil

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johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006Wed 16-Jul-08 09:07 PM
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#27. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 26


St. Louis, US
          

It's a real joy to read your analysis Neil.

I missed the DX lamentations of 04, because I was happily using a Canon G6 at that time. (and failing to capture much of any action.)

I wish I had your patience for the $2000 FX you predict. How can I possibly wait a year for a $2000 FX 24 MP camera that you will buy when the D700 is selling used for $1700 (or whatever.)

I just looked at the comparometer on Image Resourcing, and there are clear image quality differences at higher ISOs with the FX. So I am coming to peace with my decision. I only wish there was an 18-300 VR for $750.

I believe (as a marketer) we will soon see Nikon bracketing their shots, and offer longer FX lens at a slight price premium over DX.

Then all of this will be a pricing consideration more than a features consideration -- where we brand-loyal early adopters are stuck in the middle of an evolving market.

All of this garment rending is an unmet marketing opportunity.

  

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nrothschild Moderator Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Wed 16-Jul-08 10:59 PM
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#28. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 27


US
          

Actually, I don't want a 24mpx FX body, nor do you (well, there is an exception ...)

A 24mpx FX body would be the ideal wildlife body because you could shoot a DX crop, even in raw, at the same resolution as a D300, effectively the most pixel density you can get with reasonable noise characteristics (actually 27mpx would be the equivalent but we're splitting hairs there). It would presumably have an FX/DX option on the Func button which would mean you could effectively "zoom" with even a prime, and much faster than you can turn any zoom ring. It would presumably shoot 8fps or more in DX mode, with grip if necessary. It would shoot whatever fps in FX mode because who can deal with 200mpx per second flying down to the card, and thence into your computer and storage system?

If the Higher Being smiles on you, and you are tracking that bird in flight and he actually over-fills your frame (you have to do something exceptionally good for Him to smile like that ) you press a button and fire the shot of a lifetime. The other 99% of the time you shoot DX mode because you can't even fill that cropped DX frame.

That 27mpx FX sensor would not solve your problem with your daughter. It would just clog up your computer and likely force you into some serious computer upgrading. It would have the same noise characteristics as the D300, and you're back to noisy shadows. You don't need 27mpx. You need high sensor density for your birds. You want low sensor density for your daughter.

Long lenses will always be terribly expensive because DX/FX has nothing to do with it. The cost is primarily based on the diameter of the front element(s) and the minimum diameter of the element is equal to the focal length/max aperture. Even if designed for a small P&S sized 1/3" sensor, the front element size and the lion's share of cost would be the same. An 18-300VR would not help you (except maybe the VR) because it would be F/5.6 or slower. You already have a 300/4, which is the fastest long glass you are likely to find for anywhere near the cost. The next significant step, I think, is a 300/2.8 which, even in a Sigma is $3K or more.

One thing to consider is that the extra sensor density of the D300 is only useful to the extent that you can actually deliver real world wildlife shots at near the resolution limits of the lens because the sensor res isn't far behind. My progression was D70-->D2H-->D200. I bought the D200 because I'm shooting a 300/2.8 at 500mm and I really should be shooting a 500/4 at 700mm but I figured that the D200 was cheaper than the 500 and even if I could swallow a 500 it might not make a lot of sense coupled with a 4mpx D2H when there are denser sensors available. I still shoot the D2H of course, but I try to use it where I won't have to do heroic crops. My logic was predicated on my ability to take advantage of the denser D200 sensor. It isn't easy. I routinely get (highly cropped) shots on the D200 I just could not get with the D2H but it takes a lot of work and the consistency is not nearly as high. There are a lot of other differences between those two bodies, of course, the D2H having much superior Af for starters, which makes the comparison of real world output more difficult.

The point, though, is that you should carefully analyze your existing birding images for sharpness. If your images are sharp but just too tiny, the D300 may be a good solution for that problem, but if they are other than the sharpest they can be, the D300 may not help you, nor will it optimize your low light work. The harsh reality of wildlife is that it leads one down a path that ends with a $10K 600/4, plus expensive tripods, gimbals and other accouterments. At the very least a 200-400. You have to juggle that with your low light interests and your budget. Just a D300 may not get you there, whereas a D700 and some relatively inexpensive fast primes will get you state of the art low light capability, and I suspect some very high quality wildlife shots even if they may seem somewhat pixel deficient.

Neil

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monteverde_org Silver Member Nikonian since 16th Nov 2007Fri 18-Jul-08 12:19 AM
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#30. "FX crop factor killer & pixel density"
In response to Reply # 28


Monteverde Cloud Forest, CR
          

Very interesting thoughts Neil, thank you!

About the pixel density thing, it's probable that photodiodes (what the sensor pixels are made of) pollute each other & generate noise but from Nikon's FX-format CMOS Sensor article: "The foremost factor distinguishing the Nikon FX format from other image sensors is the larger pixel size, which allows it to collect more light. The D3 features 12.1 effective megapixels, with a pixel size of 8.45 x 8.45ľm — 2.4 times larger than the pixels of the DX format image sensor used in the D2X camera."

So more than pixel density or the FX format sensor, it seems that it's the size of the photodiodes that matters to achieve high ISO & low noise performance.

The idea is: larger photodiodes > more light collecting > producing a stronger electrical signal > producing a higher electrical signal to noise ratio when amplified.

So for those dreaming of a D800 or D4 with 27 or 24 megapixels & a DX crop around 12 megapixels with the same low noise capability of the D700 & D3, I guess they will have to wait a while unless there is a significant breakthrough in D300 size photodiodes or a new light capturing technology or powerful new noise reducing processor algo.

It's just not physically possible at the present to cram 12 megapixels 2.4 times larger on a DX format or crop.

Also from a marketing perspective, it makes sense to milk as much as possible a dual DX/FX bodies & lenses offering with their respective qualities before introducing such a sensor that would kill the DX line.

  

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nrothschild Moderator Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Fri 18-Jul-08 03:56 PM
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#31. "RE: FX crop factor killer & pixel density"
In response to Reply # 30


US
          

Hi Jacques,

Just for future reference as an aid to translating my ramblings, I use "pixel density" as a shorthand for exactly what you said above. Pixel density is inversely proportional to pixel size, of course, and all the benefits you ascribe to bigger pixels are assumed.

The problem with those dreaming of a DX sensor that performs as well as today's FX sensor is that, due to the physics of sensor design, should such a DX sensor become available, there will surely be an FX sensor with equivalent pixel count that is a stop or two faster, just as exists with the D3/D300 (developed more or less at the same time), and that sets a new bar for low light performance. At that point, the D3 performance will be "has been" technology that will interest no one here . It's a horse race and the horse wearing the low density (same pixel count) FX sensor will always win the race by the end of that product cycle. Of course, at that point, at least the old FX technology should wind it's way to Prosumer D80 level cameras and we will all be faced with this decision, regardless of budget .

I got to thinking about this the other night. I shoot wildlife, but that is just one thing I shoot. It is the most demanding of technology and investment though, because of the glass and the never-ending search for reach and speed. I started looking for comparative images between my D2H (4mpx) and D200 (10mpx) images, especially looking for images where extensive cropping was needed. I found a landscape scene that I shoot often, more or less as a real world test chart (the bayside scene if you've followed my prior links). And yes, I found a picket fence that was well defined by the D200 (although a bit soft at 100% compared to the smaller D2H image). The D2H image was too small to properly define the fence, which took on strange geometric patterns typical of Bayer sensors trying to do things beyond the limits of resolution. BUT, on the whole, it's hard to find that extra resolution, despite the fact that I am still convinced the lens I used (a 35/1.4 Ai) is almost surely resolving beyond even the D200 sensor in a technical sense. The point being that although I could say AHA!, here is the benefit of the 10mpx sensor, I don't think I would buy a body just to get that res.

(or, on second thought, if I was in the business of printing 20x30 prints that would blow away the viewer with it's details, that picket fence might make the image...)

What was interesting, though, was that tree leaves and shrubbery, at a distance of several hundred feet, were generally no better defined. Just bigger and a bit fuzzier on screen at 100%. Bayer sensors deal with irregular natural shapes much better than picket fences, which are essentially test charts with parallel lines that show you lpp stats. There are only so many picket fences to be shot, of course.

What the D200 does do, though, for sure, is make me feel better about highly cropped wildlife images (or maybe macro). With D2H images, I hit Ctl+ twice and I'm at 100% and my mind screams Oh No! I need more! With my D200 images, I get that satisfying extra Crl+ or two before I hit "the wall" at 100%. That's all psychological, to a great extent. It may not be, though, in the case where I have a very tight crop and all I can hope from it is a 800 pixel sized image for my web galleries. You know those shots- they will never be good 8x10's, but maybe they will make an interesting web image if the subject matter is uncommon. In principle I can take that relatively cleaner D2H image and just up-res it, but for web imaging I just never like the end result of up-sizing. It looks "fake" to me, even if the image is clean as a whistle. Maybe it's just me and my biases.

I'm going to keep doing that search because it's helping me to frame my thoughts on this matter. It does make me think that, although I have not searched for this in particular, I do not recall seeing many if any good examples of where, for example, a D300 image of the identical scene taken with a D3 actually added huge value to a real world image. And, of course, it is very difficult to execute in real life; you really have to set out to do a specific test.

I did come to some better understanding of the decision making process, though, for myself and maybe others that are trying to make the DX/FX decision... a clarification of what I said above...

There are certain benefits to FX, and those benefits are, to at least a great extent, inarguable. No one argues that a D300's high ISO sensitivity is just as good as D3. They can nit-pick the extent of the difference, number of stops, etc., but no one questions the basic concept. Nor does anyone question that FX delivers wider views with wide angle FX primes. That is truly inarguable. You can only nit-pick IQ issues.

On the other hand, the primary benefit to the DX sensor (assuming same pixel count of course) is that "reach" issue, which is hotly debated. It is not a given. At best it takes a huge amount of skill to bring home that resolution. If you are a wildlife shooter you are using a TC with either format much or most of the time and that does not work in the favor of DX because there are no magic TC's that make lenses sharper.

So, you have very tangible and inarguable benefits to FX, and a very arguable and very tenuous benefit to DX. If price was not an issue, which would you take, the two slam dunk benefits or the tenuous one?

Hmmm... food for thought...

Neil











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wrdpico Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2009Thu 23-Apr-09 10:49 PM
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#45. "RE: FX crop factor killer & pixel density"
In response to Reply # 30


US
          

Jacques,

It's been awhile since posting your thread, and monitoring it might not be a priority. Still, I enjoyed your thoughts about the large photo sites on the D700/D3 chip.

I'm getting film-like response when processing D700 images. I attribute much of this to the ample size of the D700's photo diodes; the light splashing around the sensor box has obviously been reduced. I'd enjoy seeing Nikon use the 8.45 x 8.45 photo diode in a medium format chip; a Nikon "M" would be interesting!

Would any of us buy a Nikon medium format camera (with four D700/D3 chips, trimmed to 645, in a modular back)? Nikkor large format lenses are excellent. I'm sure they can make fine MF, auto-focus glass.

A pox on Hassy, and Leica MF pricing. Would the large chip market support just two survivors - PhaseOne/Mamiya, and a competitive Nikon? Hm-mm.

P.S. Administrator (Brian?), if there's a better site to post this speculation - please, do so!

wrdpico

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wrdpico Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2009Tue 21-Apr-09 10:29 PM
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#36. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 22-Apr-09 12:20 AM by wrdpico

US
          

Jo,

I'm not a tribal loyalist. I'm agnostic about the brand on a camera's name plate - just so it works. I've toiled in commercial darkrooms and learned that trained eyes behind average cameras turn out better work than unpractised eyes with the best rigs. Hence, what I'm about to write is not as a "D-anything" fan-boy.

I'm amused at how few things about the D700 invite valid criticism. For the money, the D700 is the best all around small format camera currently on the planet. Mine does excellent hand held, existing light work - and is no slouch on a tripod. I love the thing, yet I'm not married to it.

I also have a DX D80, which has IQ similar to the DX D200. The D80 and D700 compliment each other. There is no need to reconcile friends!

For the price of a good TC, one can buy a used DX, and not deal with TC f-stop penalties. Still, if finances forced a choice between FX, and DX - I'd start with a good used DX, shoot the shutter off the thing, and accumulated top lenses along the way to an FX. Then I'd keep the DX for "reach."

Clearly, "reach" is a semantically loaded term. Some bristle at the thought of a DX having any "reach" advantage. Others think that the number of DX pixels on target is the ticket. Given the same image area, I prefer a lower number of large, well crafted photo sites, over a massive number of small ones. To my eye, large photo sites (like those in the D700) are better.

In post #6, Jon hit the mark by writing, "it's horses for courses." Comparing DX, and FX "reach" quickly devolves into a shouting match between apples, and oranges.

The DX D300 is an excellent, pro-build camera. Still, the prosumer DX D90 has better IQ, and a lower price. (For a third party comparison of camera IQ, try http://www.dxomark.com.) That doesn't mean one is better than the other, or better than a D700 - that means they're different. Nikon remains in business by giving us tough competing choices.

We pays our money, and takes our chances. Enjoy the ride. A new Nikon paradigm shifter will be out next week! Then we'll read with amusement as outraged D700 heads dis the latest, greatest. Meanwhile, practised eyes behind a second hand D40 will eat all of our lunches!

wrdpico

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 22-Apr-09 12:19 AM
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#39. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 36


San Jose, US
          

Well said! I had made a statement the other day that all people comparing FX to DX start out with the assumption that for some reason I am going to limit my image on the FX to that little DX Frame and therefore the DX is better because OF PIXEL DENSITY (often called reach which creates all sorts of misinformation). I think if you are shooting FX you know you will need longer more expensive lenses in a telephoto situation to fill the frame, which I always seek to do. So if you do that and have an equivalent framed image to the D300 DX frame, you have the same pixels on image, have to blow up the FX image less. On the other end, which DX proponents never discuss, no DX camera will have a FOV equivalent to any wide angle lens on an FX camera. So while you can buy longer lenses if you have the money, there is no amount of money you can spend on a DX lens to cover an FX field of view. The fact that the D700 also has a wider ISO range and also beats the other cameras in image quality according to DXO, I do not know why we continue this tired discussion. As you point out the D90 has better IQ than a D300. The D300 can't match the D700 at high ISO's. So as long as you are willing to spend the money for the advantages of FX in either D3 or D700 form adding better and longer lenses just is part of the price. If you can't afford that, don't buy a D700 buy a good DX camera. So if you are mostly shooting small birds, then from a financial standpoint it may make more sense to buy a DX camera, but if you can buy the glass, not only will you images be better, you will be taking pictures in some situations where you could not even get the image unless you were using D3 or D700.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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rhyder Basic MemberWed 22-Apr-09 03:02 AM
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#41. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 39


Palatine, IL, US
          

Hi Bob,
I missed this thread back in July. Thanks for posting those links about the sensor sizes. What many of the "reach" proponents fail to grasp is that not all pixels are created equal. For any given lens to have more "reach" would require breaking the laws of physics, something as yet the camera manufacturers have been able to do. This all started back when "crop factor" somehow morphed into "magnification factor".
When you think about their logic....(more pixels on the image)...wouldn't that mean the D3x would have more "reach" than the D3 ?

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 22-Apr-09 04:07 AM
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#42. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 41


San Jose, US
          

Richard by their definition yes.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Wed 22-Apr-09 10:01 PM
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#44. "RE: Closing the Crop Factor "Gap?""
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

>most of which seem to be slamming the D700 as inferior in every way
I regularly post on this topic - and I do not say anything of the sort.
What I do say is each format has unique advantages and disadvantages which make it better or worse for some photographic subjects and some photographers.
With this in mind neither format is "better" - it depends on whom and for what.
If your photographic needs exclusively match DX or exclusively match FX advantages it makes sense to own just the appropriate format.
If your photographic needs ideally require owning both formats then it makes sense (subject to budget) to own and use both.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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