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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 02:01 AM
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"A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."


US
          

Hi to all fellow and beloved Nikonians...

To me, this website and everything it represents means all the world. So, it was with great concern I read a post at the Nikon Cafe' which more than troubling me, has made me sick. I'll share it with you now...

End for Nikonians? Good for Nikoncafe?

Nikonians is effectively ending it's free membership, starting jan 12th limiting free membership to 25 days, then making people pay $25/year for membership.

They claim right now that they have about 9,000 paying members, and that only covers 13% of their costs (which means they are burning around 2 million dollars a year!).

I would expect the vast majority of the non-paying members (of which there are 143,000) to leave Nikonians, which will almost certainly make Nikonians less attractive, and should be a boost for other great sites like NikonCafe.

I've posted a blog entry on my site here with more details:

http://www.dentonimages.com/page.php...ws011009090724

So, is this a good move by Nikonians? or is this the end for them?
__________________
Steve Denton
http://www.dentonimages.com

And, so, I'm wondering... Is this the end? God forbid it is as I'd be MORE than willing to send in an additional amount if it meant we could keep things going just as I'd hope many of you would, too. There's no other site I know of that brings anywhere near as much to us...the lovers and users of Nikon equipment than the Nikonians does, and if necessary, I think we all need to be very concerned.

I guess we'll just have to see what's happening and then proceed from there as we might, can and should. Please forgive my posting this here as I just wanted it to be seen by many along with the understanding it could well be moved, deleted, or whatever by the moderators. In the meantime, best wishes to all, and especially to the two founders who've made all this possible.

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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sjd996 Registered since 29th Jan 2008Sun 11-Jan-09 09:01 PM
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#1. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 11-Jan-09 09:02 PM by sjd996

US
          

Thats my post.

I love this site and truely want it to succeed.

Many Nikonians, myself included, frequent multiple forums. You'll find similar posts on all the different sites by a lot of different people.

However I can't help but believe this is a very bad move - Nikonians is what it is because of it's broad membership, and I believe this move goes against that and will most likely cost Nikonians "market share" and it's leadership position for Nikon shooters. I hope I'm wrong.

Personally I haven't decided whether I'm going to pay or leave yet - my gut reaction is to wait until after the 26th and see how many people are left and then make a decision.

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sun 11-Jan-09 09:39 PM
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#3. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 1


Toronto, CA
          

I fail to understand how so many people can take advantage of, and loudly proclaim the great value of, all of the free access that has traditionally been available on Nikonians, and then profess shock at the suggestion that because it costs a lot of money to maintain and grow Nikonians that a paltry $25 annual membership is now in order.

So you're suggesting that the reaction of many Nikonians will be to simply leave and go elsewhere to get free stuff from another site rather than pay $25 per year for what they've already stated is a huge volume of great advice, guidance, discussion and debate at Nikonians?

For pete's sake, $25 a year isn't a hardship! You can find $25 in loose change in your sofa cushions.

What does anybody think it costs to maintain and upgrade servers and devote many dozens of hours of hard work each week to maintain and upgrade software, moderate the forums, look for new products for the online store, etc., etc., etc.? Does everybody think it all comes free and happens like magic? Do people think that Nikonians is some sort of sideline hobby site set up and maintained by some 20 year old living in his mother's basement?

I think posts like yours worry me more than anything else. In one long breath you tout the great value you've received freely from Nikonians, but then immediately devalue it all by essentially stating that you're going to wait to see what other people do before shelling out a lousy twenty five bucks. In other words, you're suggesting that, in fact, all of the value in Nikonians is only useful to you if it's freely available. I think that's a hypocritical attitude.

OTOH, if you're really just trying to suggest that Nikonians should work harder to find alternative sources of revenue (ads, ads, ads in all the forums) then you should say so.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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sjd996 Registered since 29th Jan 2008Sun 11-Jan-09 10:01 PM
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#4. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 3


US
          

Howard,

I've been running web sites large and small for the last 13 years, I think I've got a pretty good handle on costs and revenue potential, thank you.

This move represents a fundamental change in the business model for this site, going from a community site to what many have described as a "private club" in other threads, and thats going to have a serious effect on it's appeal and how Nikonians fits into the world around it.

I agree $25 isn't a lot (but if you look in other forums here, others disagree), but if every site started charging $25 I'd be broke - what would happen if google, or community sites like facebook, twitter, the other dozen or so forums I frequent all started charging? It's not a good way to build your site, IMHO, and I believe it will have a very negative impact on this site moving forward. You may disagree.

FYI, I personally don't use the hosting here, I've watched just half of one podcast, I don't use the buy/sell forums etc, I'm here just for the forums, for the people here. And if you look at my posts, I've asked very, very few questions since I've been here, but offered answers on hundreds, trying to help other people. Should I now pay for that privilege? If I pay, it's because I'm part of the community and want it to succeed. If my time, advice and help is not needed...

There are a lot of heated opinions on this topic.

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 03:01 AM
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#11. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 4


Toronto, CA
          

Steve:

The change sure seems to be a fundamental one in the Nikonians business model. I agree with you. OTOH, your comments about Google (it certainly charges AdWords customers serious money and pays AdSense customers precious little while reaping huge profits), FaceBook (a money loser), Twitter (a huge money loser) and most other forums are meaningless. By all means leave Nikonians (or stay) as you see fit, but don't attempt to analyze its business model without having real facts at hand.

Your comments about your participation in forums are perfectly accurate no doubt, but seem singularly inward looking. Thousands of Nikonians, myself included, participate in forums, expecting only the satisfaction to be derived from such participation without assigning value before or after the fact. That you and so many others are suddenly assigning great value to their posting contributions is both funny IMO and a classic unconscious ploy to try and keep things just the way they are.

According to over sixty posts I've read on this issue here, there seem to be dozens and dozens of angry Nikonians who all claim to have, like you, asked very few questions while offering hundreds of answers. The implication is that people only glean information for themselves by asking questions, but that is clearly a red herring. In fact, there isn't a single active Nikonian anywhere who hasn't taken advantage of the valuable information in these forums simply by reading it.

I've made several public suggestions about financially re-organizing Nikonians, developing a fully ad-driven revenue business, lowering membership prices to make the cost of entry more affordable (or at least less notable) for a much larger number of people. Unfortunately, it seems that 99% of all the people posting on this issue only want to gripe, display their anger, tout the immense value of their posts in the forums over the years, and babble lots of other self-centered nonsense. Somebody, please, push an agenda for a better or more appropriate business model.

Just spare me and a few others I know all this pusillanimous griping over twenty five bucks a year. We lose more change in the sofa cushions for pete's sake. It's 2009 - bandwidth, servers, and hard labor costs more money than ever.

Besides all that, has it ever occurred to you or anyone else in all the threads on this topic that maybe the days of all that free stuff online is endangered? Maybe, just maybe, ad-driven business models die a quick death in the face of ever-decreasing ad revenues as millions more sites vie for a pool of ad dollars increasing at only a tiny fraction of the rate of new sites?

If in fact the Nikonians founders have bounced to an extreme that is untenable in the face of economic downturn and other available online forums, while at the same time having to grapple with ever increasing bandwidth costs as more and more 'Nikonians' hit the site to get the information they need, then maybe Nikonians.com has simply hit some critical mass beyond which this sort of business model simply can't function (not-for-profit or whatever). In that case, this latest financial decision and restructuring will no doubt fail.

The smart money creates petitions and lobbies designed to influence the site owners to moderate their decisions. The fools, the rash and the inconsiderate simply get angry at the decision and stomp off to go play in a different sandbox. That's pathetic and an inappropriate exclamation point at the end of all of the oh-so-valuable posts they claim to have contributed.

Beyond anything else, I'm disgusted by and disappointed in the enormous number of angry, self-centered posts on this issue. I truly expected a vastly more constructive and persuasive reaction.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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artizen65 Registered since 02nd Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 03:31 AM
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#14. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 11


Littleton, US
          

Howard,

I am going to stick my neck out here. I do not think Steve has any concept of what it takes to run a data center and the pipes usually on a sharp shins ring that it takes for large data centers. My example below is for a single OC12 not on a ring and includes no back up should you loose your single OC12.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sjd996 Registered since 29th Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 04:26 AM
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#18. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 14


US
          

I might surprise you there, I've project managed and deployed websites for some very, very large companies.

Your numbers below come to about $220k per year for hosting and equipment, that sounds about right - maybe a little high (I'd be surprised if they get 25% at peak times, that 150k number is members that have ever registered in the past 8 years, there is no way to delete your registration).

The general rule of thumb for forums, is that if 10% pay 10 dollars you are in the black, so that would be $150k/year, which is close enough to your numbers.

This site is claiming about $2m in expenses a year according to JRP's post...

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

  

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artizen65 Registered since 02nd Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 07:35 AM
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#26. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 18


Littleton, US
          

>I might surprise you there, I've project managed and deployed
>websites for some very, very large companies.
>
>Your numbers below come to about $220k per year for hosting
>and equipment, that sounds about right - maybe a little high
>(I'd be surprised if they get 25% at peak times, that 150k
>number is members that have ever registered in the past 8
>years, there is no way to delete your registration).
>
>The general rule of thumb for forums, is that if 10% pay 10
>dollars you are in the black, so that would be $150k/year,
>which is close enough to your numbers.
>
>This site is claiming about $2m in expenses a year according
>to JRP's post...

Steve,

My apologies.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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artizen65 Registered since 02nd Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 03:19 AM
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#12. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 4


Littleton, US
          

>Howard,
>
>I've been running web sites large and small for the last 13
>years, I think I've got a pretty good handle on costs and
>revenue potential, thank you.
>

Servers are cheep. "BUT"
Lets assume that 25% of the membership are streaming data at peak times with an average 1MB connection so using a round figure of 25% of 150K users that is 37.5 GB of bandwidth used at any given time. A T3 is 44.1 MB Last time I checked here it was $900.00 a month. That is 850 T3's. Wow.

So I think we can safely assume that just our little community requires probably an OC12 just to handle the load. Now an OC3 is 3 T3's and an OC12 is 4 OC3's for a total of 12 T3's. This assumption is probably fairly close as to our bandwidth requirements. That is roughly 10K per month for a single OC12.

So 120K a year just to cover the pipe so we can all be Nikonians. I for one don't want advertising cluttering up our forums like so many other sites have.

So how many members does it take just to cover the "PIPE" assuming an OC12 at 10K a month. The answer is 4800. Now how much does the equipment cost to convert that OC12 to IP well a Flash Wave 4500 with the appropriate cards I could get an exact figure but roughly 100K so that is another say 4800 members.

Then there is the cost of space etc., etc., etc The list is just about endless.

P.S. An OC12 might be a little small!!!!!

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 03:59 AM
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#15. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 12


Toronto, CA
          

Your numbers are scary for anyone who is watching their former hobby site suddenly gain serious traction. The wrenching debate in such situations is, "How will I ever pay for all this?" As for Nikonians.com, the owners certainly have to deal with big costs in the areas you've mentioned, and which may significantly outpace monthly site revenue. Whatever the owners' margins happen to be, it's their business to lose, so they've got to be realistic about costs, site scaling and a few other crucial items which revolve around hanging on to, growing and managing the active membership.

Ever-expanding free access = no money = no web site. Again, your cost estimates inject a sobering note.

I think that ad dollars available to sites in the rapidly expanding top 25% of enthusiast web sites and portals have leveled off and are actually decreasing in many categories. Publicly available news reports available online say so. Economic downturns and recessions certainly don't help the situation. But it seems that the number of web sites clamoring for ad dollars is increasing at a ridiculous rate, while the amount of available ad dollars increases only incrementally.

If in the end I'm participating in a fully restructured Nikonians as a paid member with 15,000 (or 5,000, or 50,000) other paid members, so be it (as long as I'm contributing and participating effectively and enjoyably along with the other members). I don't think that's a bad future.

The whole idea that Nikonians would somehow be less valid or worthwhile if it shrunk to 50,000 paid members, flies in the face of the fact that when Nikonians actually was that size a few years ago, everyone participating in the site in those days were thoroughly enjoying themselves. Big registration numbers are meaningless if they've grown to constitute a huge money pit.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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tommiejeep Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 04:04 AM
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#17. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 12


Goa, IN
          

Michael,again very interesting and well above my knowledge base. I am a member of a non-profit,non-pay site that has very srtrict posting rules. Now I better understand why.

Not a problem, just post best photos and answer the questions only if you have an answer. Had to submit a brief resume' and samples of photos before being invited to join.

I am probably one of the bigger offenders here in terms of posting photos that are not all that good and sometimes post for humour and not photogaphy. I guess I had better use more self-control and pay for the upgrade.
Thanks,
Tom

T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

  

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KQW Registered since 24th Jul 2008Mon 26-Jan-09 06:01 AM
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#207. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 1


MU
          

Have folks visited some of the other Nikon sites? In my opinion, they are not quite up to par with this site.

The advice you can get here will save you ton's of dollars if you use it correctly.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Mon 26-Jan-09 06:27 AM
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#208. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 207


Memphis, US
          

Thank you Ken for the very kind words! I also appreciate your support.

Kind Regards Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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sjd996 Registered since 29th Jan 2008Sun 11-Jan-09 09:11 PM
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#2. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Just FYI - I count 14 threads on this very topic here on Nikonians in this forum:

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=134

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Sun 11-Jan-09 11:27 PM
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#5. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 2


St. Paul, US
          

Hmmmmm....this is the first I have heard of it. I am a paying member, so I might remain a paying member, but I am troubled that 87% of the clientele may leave. Communities thrive on inclusiveness, not membership fees, and I have yet to see a very successful one that make fees mandatory. To be candid, internet forums just don't work that way.

If I paid $25 into every forum I contribute too over the spectrum of my hobbies, it would be over $1000 a year> I don't post images on FM because I don't want to pay multiple times for the same thing. It's a waste.

Agitator, don't take this personally, but you really seem to be looking at this from what works for you, and clearly, that won't work for everybody. It isn't just the $25, but how many new member do you think this place would get if all new members had to pay first. The place would go extinct in less that 2 years, and that would be a shame.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Sun 11-Jan-09 11:53 PM
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#6. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

Well for me, I used the buy & sell once. I took a silver to gain access.

I felt it was the largest Nikon community available to resell a 200/400. It did the job. That said , if the community was small I wouldn't have joined.

It's nice to communicate with others sharing your interests/vices. But there are other websites that have it free, it's a jungle out there.

The managers of the site really have to find a way to keep the eyeballs and monetize the site or all their previous efforts to build will be wasted as the site melts away or they should sell it (if buyers exist, like dpreview did)

It's no secret, that people on the internet want everything free, as AOL will tell you. We'll have to see how things go.

Rags

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 01:50 AM
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#7. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


San Jose, US
          

Dick you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I agree with Howard. Right now the 9000 paying members are footing the bill for people who want to use the full services for free. Do you think that it is fair to them that they should pay and you should get the same access and content for free? Whether you pay or not, you impact the number of servers required, administration, etc. that it takes to run this site. If only 13% of the costs are being covered by current membership, where do you propose that Nikonians get the rest of the money required? Perhaps a bailout from the US Gov't since everyone else is in line? There was a big uproar last week when Nikonians added the name of a Sponsor to the title of a forum, yet everyone wants everything to be free. As I understand it people will still be able to look at the forums, they just won't be able to post if they don't pay. Many sites you speak of are funded by ads from vendors like Amazon, etc. I think the level of information and help on Nikonians is greater than most places you can look. It is not filled up with flaming emails or stupid rants, but rather with useful insight from many professional or advanced shooters. Yes if you joined every paying web site you would go broke, and maybe you don't use the gallery and many other things that makes Nikonians unique. That is why there are many levels of membership. Even on Flicker you have to pay a fee for storage beyond a few gig. As Howard says $25 is not an enormous sum. Yes we may lose some people who think $25 is too much for what is provided here, but I would not expect a mass exodus.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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rihetzler Silver Member Charter MemberMon 12-Jan-09 02:24 AM
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#8. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

I'm a paying member, though I occasionally let my membership lapse. I find it useful, I want it to continue, I contribute. Its the best Nikon site I've found on the web. Richard

  

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Ed Basic MemberMon 12-Jan-09 02:26 AM
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#9. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

>but I would not expect a mass exodus.

No, just 143,000 of us.

  

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illininagel Registered since 23rd Dec 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 03:08 PM
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#32. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 9


Orland Park, US
          

In my view, forums thrive on traffic to be successful.

I frequently visit several photography forums...and happen to prefer Nikon Cafe over the others. On occasion, I enjoy visiting Nikonians--but only do so a few times a month.

I certainly don't derive $25 of benefits annually through my visits. Maybe this is what Nikonians prefers, but by forcing me to choose between a $25 membership and not visiting at all, I choose the latter.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of basic users will make that same decision, which will ultimately lead to the end of Nikonians. The problem is that there are just too many free alternatives out there.

I feel much better about making my voluntary contributions to a free site like Nikon Cafe than being forced into making donations.

As my days are now limited here, this will most likely be my last post!

  

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jtm Registered since 04th Jan 2005Mon 12-Jan-09 02:58 AM
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#10. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 7
Mon 12-Jan-09 03:00 AM by jtm

US
          

>where do you propose that Nikonians get the rest of the money
>required? Perhaps a bailout from the US Gov't since everyone
>else is in line?

Last summer GM announced they were raising prices despite the fact the economy wasn't that great. I heard that didn't go so well. The economy is now going down the drain. Fortunately they are getting a bailout. Anyone think that will save them?


>Even on Flicker you have to pay a fee for storage beyond a few gig.
>As Howard says $25 is not an enormous sum.

Disclosure: I am a silver member here and do not even have a free flickr account. I like this site. I'm just expressing my version of reality with some hope of keeping this place alive.

Nikonians lowest membership level at $25 allows for 300 megs. Flickr Pro at $25 doesn't give you a few gig, you get unlimited uploads and storage. Another benefit is Ad-free browsing.

Let's assume it is 2 gigs, though. That would be 6.7 times the amount of storage for the same price on one of the most popular sites of any kind in any language in the world.


>but I would not expect a mass exodus.

We shall see.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 05:33 AM
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#21. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 10


San Jose, US
          

I have a Flickr Pro account and you are correct that gives me unlimited storage. But my point was a pro account is not free. I still feel that people are arguing about this as though the only benefit is the forums. That of course is not true. But if a membership level was limited only to forums, no storage, no contests, no training, would that be of interest? I think you have to look at the whole package. I don't know the true numbers, but my guess is tha paying members probably have a higher percentage of pro and advanced amatuers than non payers. I pay because I felt I got far more for my money than just forum access. Most of my recent purchases where driven by information and advice I got here on Nikonians. I also gained information to make me a better photographer. If that isn't worth $25 a year than I don't know what is. Sure some people will leave, but that is not the end of Nikonians.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 11:16 AM
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#27. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

>Dick you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I agree
>with Howard.

Hi Bob...

Whoa, Amigo... You've nailed the wrong guy. I totally support "Pay for Play" which is why I upped my status to "Gold" at my last renewal, and I'm totally happy I did so. I'm 64 and with the economic chaos of recent months, I have to be very careful in that I live on a fixed income and also have 4 kids in college...Ouch...

I don't think there's anything I have or have had of any value that hasn't come with a price. I visit some of the other sites like the Cafe', Nikongear and Miranda, etc., et al, but this site is "home base" so to speak simply because to me, it's special and I would miss it terribly.

I guess I also fail to see the wisdom in the grousing and whining of some others as $25/year is but a pittance compared to the enjoyment I derive from the Nikonians' Forums, Podcasts, e-zines, etc. and I'm happy to "slap leather" as they used to say in the old West, and pony up. And, I truly hope the vast majority of my fellow Nikonians feel the same way.

With ALL best wishes to ALL...

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 12:52 AM
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#62. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 27


San Jose, US
          

Sorry Dick you are correct, I was guilty of shooting the messenger.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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tommiejeep Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 03:21 AM
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#13. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Goa, IN
          

Interesting. I just decided to actually use "My Gallery"(when I get the time) and have decided to upgrade my membership just to support the site. Heck I have recouped my $25 by buying ThinkTank gear and my free Markins pouch.

Also the last few times I have tried to register on Nikon Cafe I got something like 'registrations closed'(this was not just from my computer!lol). Is Nikon Cafe feeling a crunch also?

I did not realize that only 9,000 of us are paying! Will have to go back and check the replies to the change of name of the Wildlife Forum.

The site has been a big help to me as was Dpreview a couple of years back(and still is to a lesser extent). I participate on several forums and most are supported by Sponsors and Ads. We shall see.

I am still renewing and upgrading, we shall see.
Cheers,Tom

T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 05:38 AM
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#22. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 13


San Jose, US
          

I don't frequent Nikon Cafe but I did go ove to look at the comments about Nikonians. The owner of that site was supportive of Nikonians trying to make ends meet, and was even saying donations to his site would be appreciated. If like tose posters stated that they would all use Nikon Cafe over Nikonians, then I think his increased membeship would cause him to change his free site too. There is no free lunch.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 03:59 AM
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#16. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Bay Area, US
          

Even today, Nikonians is not for free, how could it be? I don't know how much, but it does cost money to run such an elaborate website: servers, programming, bandwidth, maintenance, etc.

The only question is how to pay for it. It can be advertising, or the customers pay, or a mix of these two. Any website is paid this way. I'm not aware of any other option.

So do we want advertising? Mention an 85mm lens in a post, and a sponsored link will appear next to it where to buy one - like it is with Google? Or do we rather want to pay $25 a year?

That is the only discussion we can have here - how to pay for this wonderful site, not if.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 04:35 AM
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#19. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 16


Toronto, CA
          


>That is the only discussion we can have here - how to pay for
>this wonderful site, not if.

Well said! Succinct and positive. I wish I'd said it that way myself.

How about adding a Basic membership fee of $10 a year, reducing Silver, Gold and Platinum to $20, $60 and $100 dollars per year respectively? I think that sort of pricing will be attractive to a lot of existing Basic members. With a much higher paid membership, it would be possible to also add only a moderate amount of affiliate, AdSense and sponsored ad links in order to fatten site revenue to a respectable level.

The biggest problem I have with the current Nikonians announcement is that too much is changing for Basic members with too little incentive for Basic members to go along with the changes.

No matter how urgent or valid the Nikonians financial argument may be, its not realistic to think that going from totally free, site-wide basic access to a fully paid model in one breath is going to convert many Basic members. Where's the incentive? The existing value of the site is a partial incentive certainly, but when a person has already been participating in the creation of site content as a Basic member, something else is needed to convince that person to buy into the site.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 05:43 AM
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#23. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 19


San Jose, US
          

Howard those are all good ideas. I know JRP and Staff are looking for ways to make membership more attractive to the members and are considering other benefits, so people should forward their ideas to him or Bo. I too am sorry to see the kind of reaction we are seeing from paid and non paid members. I am not a professional, but I was so satisfied with what I was getting out of Nikonians I first upgraded to Gold and now Platinum level. Is the site perfect, hell no, but with inputs from members it can be made better. Why should a few paying members pay while others get a free ride?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 01:00 PM
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#28. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 23


Toronto, CA
          


>I am not a professional, but I was so satisfied with what I
>was getting out of Nikonians I first upgraded to Gold and now
>Platinum level. Is the site perfect, hell no, but with inputs
>from members it can be made better. Why should a few paying
>members pay while others get a free ride?

I'm in the same position as you, except that I recently upgraded from Silver to Gold. If a whole bunch of Basic members disappear leaving 'only' ten or twenty thousand active paid members, that's certainly no hardship. I think the vast majority of basic members merely lurk, glean information as they come across it, and rarely contribute. That's fine and it's the reality of these sorts of sites. That said, it's also clear that many basic members have contributed mightily over the years and continue to do so right now. My hope is that most of those good contributors will buy a Silver membership and continue their worthwhile participation in Nikonians.

One significant thing typical of paid membership sites is that the incidence of trolls is much lower than on sites which offer broad, free access.

Bo and company will have to admit sooner or later (if they haven't already done so) that they can't please all of the people all of the time. If someone participates in Nikonians strictly for the free interaction with other photographers in a variety of freely accessible discussion forums, I can't think of very many incentives which will motivate them to pay for a membership. My assumption is that Bo and company have considered that factor and are prepared to take a membership hit in several areas.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:39 AM
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#38. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 28


San Jose, US
          

While not scientific in any way, I did a quick scan yesterday of the forums I frequent. the majority of posts were from paying members though there were some from basic non paying members. I certainly have no problem with the people who have posted that they are down on their luck and may have to choose between food and a membership. I do have a problem with people who say "I was thinking about paying but now that you told me I have to do so to use all the stuff I have been using it is now offensive to me so I am leaving." I agree you will not please all of the people on a free site. For everyone like me who has chosen to go up at least one or even two levels in membership, even though they don't use all the stuff, there are probably 3 others who will never pay and would rather go to inferior sites instead. I scanned the comments on Nikon Cafe yesterday. Most of the people griping there were people who stopped in once in awhile but really never participated in the site. They see Nikonians only as forums with a gallery they do not want to use. I don't fault them, but I doubt we will miss that kind of membership. I am more concerned about people who are paying members and are being stampeded to the door for fear that Nikonians will fail. Well if it does fail it will be because the current members have not made themselves heard as to what they want from Nikonians.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 07:13 PM
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#35. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 19


US
          

Howard you nailed it!

It seems to me you will always lose eyeballs; attrition, other interests, adverse reaction to ads, adverse reaction to any change or dislike of another participant.

So while its important to keep what you have, it's also important to maintain the allure for new participants (which may result in some loss of what you have). Site sustainability may result in some bruises.

Rags

  

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rodsky77 Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Jan 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 04:56 AM
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#20. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Why pay the $25? Show me another site that offers the same quality information and advice. I just upgraded to the Silver. Will many people leave? Perhaps. Where will they go? This is the best Nikon forum. I would just pay the $25 to show support, have my own gallery space and to be able to sell items. I think it's definitely worth it.

New Jersey Nikonian


Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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bkv959 Registered since 10th Jan 2009Mon 12-Jan-09 06:29 AM
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#24. "No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

We will be locked out. There is a difference.

They are running a big business here and deserve bigger salaries.

At near 80 I have no income but don't begrudge their working for all they receive. I am ashamed to be in the group that $25 is a big deal but it is.

Life is haves and havenots. Just the way it is.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 06:43 AM
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#25. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 24


San Jose, US
          

Well maybe they can have an over 80 discount. I don't suggest seniors as I am already 70 and I think many Nikonians are in their 60's, if we all got discounts they might have to close down.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 01:07 PM
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#29. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 25


Toronto, CA
          

>Well maybe they can have an over 80 discount. I don't suggest
>seniors as I am already 70 and I think many Nikonians are in
>their 60's, if we all got discounts they might have to close
>down.

Good idea, but I think that discounts for multiple membership purchases might work well. For example, how about a "Buy 1 membership at full price, then buy a second identical membership at 20% off to give to a senior." The donated memberships go into a pool. Senior photographers (or anybody on a fixed income) can fill out a simple application online and qualify for one of the donated memberships. That way, donated memberships are anonymous.

Personally, on that basis I'd be delighted to contribute several additional discounted memberships annually.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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edoruan Basic MemberMon 12-Jan-09 02:36 PM
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#31. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 29


New York, US
          

Recently Nikonians have been sending me messages encouraging me to renew or possibly upgrade my paid membership. I'm a charter member at silver level. (God, have I been here that long?)

Even more recently (this week), I was thinking that I've outgrown this group, and it's time to move on. This is not because I have at last reached a utopian level of excellence and no longer seek advice. It's that I've been reading more than the usual dose of nonsensical advice from people who should know better.

Today, after reading intelligent posts by Howard Carson, Bob Baldassano and others, I've decided to stay and pay.

One more point of contention: Why do we not have a specialty section on Stock Photography? Stock is no longer the domain of the professional. It's also of interest to semi-pros and hobbyists who provide much of the stock material now days.

Edo

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the Nikon Cafe mentioned in the original post? It seems there are a number of them.

Edo

  

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Juggernaut Registered since 25th Jul 2008Mon 12-Jan-09 04:59 PM
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#33. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 31
Mon 12-Jan-09 05:02 PM by Juggernaut

Triad, US
          

>Edo wrote:
>
>P.S. Does anyone have a link to the Nikon Cafe mentioned in
>the original post? It seems there are a number of them.

Edo,
here is the link to the cafe...
Nikoncafe.com


ETA - I won't be leaving soon. I find the forum to be a very valuable asset to my education in photography.


Daniel
North Carolina
SmugMug

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:46 AM
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#42. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 33


San Jose, US
          

The one I used was www.nikoncafe.com, not all of the posts were against Nikonians, in fact some Nikonians were on there supporting our site.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:44 AM
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#41. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 31


San Jose, US
          

Ed thanks for including me in the list of people who make intelligent posts - I am not sure my wife would agree.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:42 AM
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#40. "RE: No One Will Leave!!"
In response to Reply # 29


San Jose, US
          

Howard another excellent idea. Please forward it to JRP or Bo.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:40 AM
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#39. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 20


San Jose, US
          

Kevin my thoughts exactly, it is why I became a Platinum even though I am not a Pro like most of them are. We need more people who think like you.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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adcam Gold Member Nikonian since 31st Dec 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 02:23 PM
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#30. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Portland, US
          

I was lurker for about a year in this site. I've learned so much in this site that I decided to do the Gold membership to support this site.

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Mon 12-Jan-09 06:02 PM
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#34. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 30


St. Paul, US
          

I'm a paying member, so I have bought the right to question some statements here. Not picking on anybody, but here goes:

""Right now the 9000 paying members are footing the bill for people who want to use the full services for free. Do you think that it is fair to them that they should pay and you should get the same access and content for free?""

What content? The content that many non=paying members are providing? Keep in mind that a huge percentage of the people providing content are non-paying members, and not only do they provide content for free, they increase traffic numbers, so the ads Nikonians can sell to their sponsors are worth a lot more. There is a lot of value in that, and it is the business model that most web 2.0 applications are driven by.

""If that isn't worth $25 a year than I don't know what is. Sure some people will leave, but that is not the end of Nikonians.""

Depends on how many people leave. Clearly I happen to think it will be a lot more than you do. Besides, the numbers are misleading. They say they have 150,000 members, but how many are active. For all we know, 50% of the active numbers ARE paying. If that's the case, there is no way this revenue drive could begin to pay for what appears to be bloated expenses.

""No matter how urgent or valid the Nikonians financial argument may be, its not realistic to think that going from totally free, site-wide basic access to a fully paid model in one breath is going to convert many Basic members. Where's the incentive?""

Agree 100%. I think they went way overboard here.

""Why should a few paying members pay while others get a free ride?""

Becuase paying members are getting benefits that they use, where the free members are not. You make it sound like non-paying members are freeloading, when what they are really doing is participating at a level they are comfortable at, and providing content and and valuable traffic statistics to the site. IMO, that ain't freeloading.

""They are running a big business here and deserve bigger salaries. ""

Based on what? Do you know their current salaries? Heck, most user content driven forums do not have a list of paid staff. Look at the number of people this place employs and it greatly exceeds most forums. Personally, I do not think they have managed their costs well, and non-paying members are being asked to pay for it.

I think they should look at some of the creative suggestions here for getting more money out of their contributors, similar to things that Agitater has suggested. Heck, their content providers (us) seem to be doing a better job of coming up with alternative solutions than their (presumably) paid staff. And the suggestions are free!

Bottom line, I don't think their present proposed solution will work. I have seen it fail over and over and over again.

They need to manage their costs if they want to survive.



It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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edtsui1946 Registered since 25th Jan 2007Mon 12-Jan-09 11:39 PM
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#36. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 34


Chappaqua, US
          

I am a paying member here and enjoy the site. I also visit Nikon Cafe and other sites such as Photo.net and dpreview. I will continue to be a paid member, but I must confess my worry and reservation about the decision to oblige users to pay. Given the alternatives available, such a move would drive many good participants away. I do think that Nikonians should find some way to encourage but not oblige non-paying members to contribute, and find a way to acknowledge their contributions in terms of access. Nikonians, in my view, can and should get more ad revenues. If properly explained, members here can understand and accept such unavoidable advertisement. Good luck with coming up with a revised business model that can make this site sustainable at least for the next five years.

Ed Tsui

  

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glxman Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Oct 2008Tue 13-Jan-09 12:05 AM
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#37. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 36


South Australia, AU
          

Hi Guys,

My 2c worth,

I have not been a member long but have found a lot of non paying members contributions a great help,

How things are going to work out in the future, time will tell,

For example,
One of my favorite fly fishing publications here in Aust has closed its doors,

Why?
It certainly had a lot of subscribers,
The problem was the global financial crisis had the biggest impact,
80% of the retail guys "pulled" their adverts from the magazine due to "downsizing", basically, the adverts were paying for the publication,

I am a "metallic" member, (silver), here in Australia where $10 AUD most probably would not buy a Big Mac in the USA,

At the current pricing, I am happy to renew my membership,

Regards,
Gary

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Taught myself everything I know and I still know nothing!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 03:02 AM
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#44. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 34


San Jose, US
          

Bob your logic would only work if all the paying members were nto contributing. The fact is paying members and none paying members do contribute. If you have to ask what content, and think it comes primarily from non members, then you have never heard a podcast, never read an article in the magazine, never spoke with a forum moderator, never read the resources section. All of these things are done by paying members or Nikonians staff, not to even speak of the Pro Shop staff or the IT folks who keep the site running. Or what about the seminars or travel, etc. I could go an and on, but you get the point. Again I will say I have no problem with the fact that some people really can't afford $25 a year. Then they should go to the free sites to maximize their benefit. But I for one don't think 13 to 15% of the people who frequent this site should support the rest of the people who want to use it for free and get upset because they are asked to pay $25 a year for it. Less than 7 cants a day! You can't buy a newspaper for that, not in fact could you buy some Photo Mags for 30 days worth of 7 cents saved. None of us know how many people will decide to leave Nikonians, but I know a good thing when I see it, and I am sure thre are enough intelligent basic members right now who will realize that they do have a good thing here and will buy the minimum membership. For those who don't see the value, well I wish them luck.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 03:19 AM
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#45. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 44


St. Paul, US
          

Thing is, a lot of nan-paying members don't use any of that stuff. Hell, I don't use any of that stuff and I am a paying member. That's why a more creative program could work for the people that want that stuff. Say, sell the podcasts like mp3s, similar to a music store. Charge a flat fee per want ad insert, etc. It's all old technology at this point and not that difficult to do.

I don't have a problem with trying to collect money for services. I have a problem with the business model they are pursuing, as I have seen it fail time and time again. And that's a pretty bad deal for the paying members.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005Mon 19-Jan-09 05:59 PM
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#154. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 54


Apollo, US
          

Over the past few years there has been a huge growth in what I refer to as the "entitlement" mentality. Which I perceive as a totally impractical and irrational belief that a small group should fund or support the various activities of a larger non-contributing group. The diminishing returns of this concept should be apparent to everyone. The old saying, "there is no free lunch," is as true here as elsewhere. And you are correct when you say, there are none so blind as those who would not see."

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Tue 20-Jan-09 06:55 AM
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#166. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 154


Memphis, US
          

Robert we truly thank you for the support!

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 02:47 AM
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#43. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 30


San Jose, US
          

Thank you Armando the rest of the paying members thank you for your good sense and willingness to pitch in.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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glxman Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Oct 2008Tue 13-Jan-09 03:42 AM
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#46. "Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 43


South Australia, AU
          

Your post has given a better picture of this excellent web site,

Being in Australia, sure, I don't have access to every thing, but for the others reading, as a Silver member I'm sure getting my money's worth without the "trolling" you get on almost any other web site,

I do think a trial period is a good option,

For example,

Prior to my purchase of the D700, I was able to make an informed opinion about the old questions, "DX or FX", prior to purchase,

This was info I got on Nikonians, did not even have to post, just read!

Its almost embarrassing the help I have had without being able to really contribute since the D700,

Regards,
Gary

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Taught myself everything I know and I still know nothing!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Tue 13-Jan-09 04:35 AM
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#47. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 46


US
          

Hi:

Here is my take on the whole issue. I became a member of this forum, back in March 2007, after getting back to photography with the purchase of the D40. Right after I joined, I became a Silver member. However, I was not active for some time , because I belonged to another forum.

I became more active in Nikonians because it was far superior to any other forum and a tremendous wealth of information. In fact, Nikonians is my only forum and not just for photography. Since getting back to photography, after a 15+ years absence, I started from scratch. I would not have been able to make my, what I believe good decisions, in purchasing thousands of dollars worth of photo equipment without the invaluable help and guidance of many of the members who took time to offer advice.

In all honesty, I became embarrassed contributing only $25 for my annual membership, after all the money I was expending. Therefore, I upgraded my membership to Gold, the hard way; I did not use $39.50 coupon for purchasing the D300 book.

I’m very happy in this forum and the people have been very nice and hospitable to me. In fact in my website: www.hektorsphotos.com I have nothing but Nikonians logos in it. I am committed to the continued success of Nikoninas. I will upgrade my membership to Platinum but not this year and after the 24-70 and 70-200 VRII Again, this is a fantastic Website and $75/year is a pittance, IMHO. Nothing in life is free.

Best Regards,

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 06:19 AM
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#48. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 47
Tue 13-Jan-09 06:30 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Hector thanks for sharing your reasons for being a member. You have not only paid the piper in money but you have also been a good provider of information to others. I too had decided to up my membership for similar reasons. Although I have not met any Nikonian in person, I feel like I have known many of you for a long time and I value the insight that everyone brings to the forums. Even newbies who ask what looks like simple questions often are the catalyst for further understanding about how our cameras, lenses and software work. For me, after being an amateur most of my life and never owning a really good tripod or ever having a ball head. I got an excellent education over in the tripod forum and it led me to by the Markins Ball and Gitzo tripod I have today and I have never been happier with a purchase. My 35-70 f/2.8 lens which I bought for a steal price, would never have been in my hands except for the glowing comments made by members in the various forums I looked at. It is by far the best bang for the buck of any of my purchases. There were so many examples like this including honest critiques of my photos that made me realize I was getting far more out of my silver membership that I upgraded to gold and now platinum, because I wanted to support the effort even though many of the things that are now available to me as a Platinum member I will probably not use. It is people like you that will keep Nikonians viable long after the lurkers who have decided to abandon us for other sites are gone. I would rather belong to a finacially sound organization with people who are committed to making it better than one that has thousands of people who are on it just because it is free.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Tue 13-Jan-09 05:18 PM
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#52. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 48


US
          

Hi Bob:

Thanks for your very kind words. It has also been great talking to you. I do not know if my contributions are that significant, but I’m doing my best. Therefore, I take your word .

You raised an excellent point that I did not address that is the ability to talk to people around the world, getting their perspectives. This is not just a local Website, but much more than that.

I’m basically reaching my freezing point regarding equipment. My next three items are the 24-70 (it is a matter of time,) the 70-200 Version 2 (maybe – I have not yet decided on it,) and the laptop. I would purchase the latter when I absolutely need it. My biggest requirement is the FSB. The good deals that Newegg keeps sending me, with discount coupons, are of laptops of 667 Mhz, but I want one of 1 GHz and those are still on the pricey side. I can wait; I really do not need it right now.

With the D300 + D700, I have enough for the next ten years, at least. I’m sure that the D700x and/or the D800 or D900 are going to be top-notch. However, they might require more computer power of both the Tower and Laptop. In addition, the more the difference in performance between the D300 and the other body, the less I would be using the D300. Better bodies are good, but, the bottom line imho, it is up to the photographer to do the best with what he/she has – I only publish on the web.

My goal, after the equipment purchases are done, is to keep the photography budget to less than $1,000/year. My Website + Nikonians are ~ $150.00/year. In addition, I have five softwares to keep up with: NX, LR, Noise Ninja, Nik Efex, and Camera Control Pro. That would range between $500 - $600/year. Therefore and in all probabilities, I will up to Platinum in my next membership renewal.

Best Regards,

Hektor

PS: B&H refunded me $5.50 for the D700 shipping and I did not ask for it. Actually, I refused their offer. That is what I wanted to hear from them that I am a valued customer and not just a number. I’m happy now.

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 06:11 PM
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#53. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 52


San Jose, US
          

B&H has always been a class act to me.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Tue 13-Jan-09 08:53 PM
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#55. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 53
Tue 13-Jan-09 09:51 PM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Bob:

I agree about B&H and it is the place I really trust, but got very upset with them. We made up!

I just took the 70-200 VRII off the wish list – do not need it. The 70-300 VRII and with the D700, just crank the ISO. I’m just about to pull the trigger on the 24-70 (and two-day air ,) but will sleep over it. If I do, I’m done with photo equipment. This time, I really mean it!!!

Thom Hogan said the following, today:

“Jan 12--I'm expecting at least Nikon lens and accessory prices to go up substantially in the US in the not too distant future. If you look at when some of these items were originally priced, Nikon has suffered very large product margin hits on many of these due to the currency exchange difference. I think it reasonable to expect a list price bump soon, then rebates again to move any inventory that sits around too long.”

http://www.bythom.com/

Best Regards,

Hektor

Update: I just pulled the trigger on the 24-70 – due to arrive this Friday. I did sleep on it – took a nap! If anything goes wrong with the order, I won’t try to fix it. If it happens, it does and if doesn’t happen, it does not. Byers’ remorse? Maybe. However, I really wanted the lens! I will re-evaluate the 85mm 1.4. The problem with it is that its minimum focusing distance is 3’ and the 24-70 is 1.2’ – I can get closer. If the bouquet is about the same, the 85mm is gone.

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Tue 13-Jan-09 11:25 PM
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#56. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 55


Bay Area, US
          

>> If the bouquet is about the same, the 85mm is gone

Not even close.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 08:18 PM
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#83. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 56
Thu 15-Jan-09 08:36 PM by Ramesses

US
          

I posted the same message twice, for some reason. Deleted the contents of this one. Sorry about that. Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 08:34 PM
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#85. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 56


US
          

Hi Tom:

Let’s continue this discussion in the right forum and thread:

“Nikon 24-70 – Discussion from another forum:” http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=146&topic_id=153067

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Wed 21-Jan-09 06:52 AM
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#185. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 47


Memphis, US
          

Ramesses thank you for the very kind words and support! Plus your website is very nicely done! I see you got the new logos up quickly!

Again thanks! Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 13-Jan-09 06:26 AM
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#49. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 46


San Jose, US
          

GAry another thing I like about Nikonians is that it is worldwide. It is fun talking to you guys down under and getting a chance to see photos of places I hope to visit someday.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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glxman Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Oct 2008Tue 13-Jan-09 07:52 AM
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#50. "Your right Bob,"
In response to Reply # 49


South Australia, AU
          

Like traveling around Australia,

The "tyranny of distance" is factor to consider when coming down my way, a bit of a trap for some on a tight schedule,

lets hope I can get some for you in the future suitable for uploading, at the moment, the images are hitting the "trash can" and then the format button,

Regards,
Gary

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Taught myself everything I know and I still know nothing!

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Wed 21-Jan-09 06:53 AM
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#186. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 49


Memphis, US
          

Bob I want to thank you for all the support you have given us during this very tough time of change!

Kind Regards Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 21-Jan-09 08:00 AM
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#188. "RE: Thanks for your input Bob,"
In response to Reply # 186


San Jose, US
          

JIm glad to help I really believe in Nikonians.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Nikon Bob Registered since 16th Jul 2003Tue 13-Jan-09 04:53 PM
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#51. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Thunder Bay, CA
          

Good luck to all involved in this issue and to those that remain after the mandatory membership is imposed. I don't use the buy and sell nor do I post photos. I came back to Nikonians a while back when I bought a D700 and had renewed interest in things Nikon. The loss of access to the site by non payment of an annual fee is not a loss to me as an occasional user.

Bob

Nikon Bob

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 14-Jan-09 02:10 AM
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#57. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


San Jose, US
          

One other factor I have not mentioned in this thread and was not aware of until I upgraded the first time, is that if you upgrade your membership before your current membership expires, all your remaining time is converted to the higher level. So for example if you were a silver member with a 2 year membership with one year to go and you upgraded to gold for one year, you will actually now have 2 years at the gold level. It is even better going to Platinum. When I upgraded to Platinum I still had 3 years at the Gold level as I had upgraded first from Basic to Silver and then Gold. I added a 1 year Platinum member, and now I have 4 years at the Platinum level although most of that time was paid at silver and gold levels.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Nikonnubie07 Registered since 22nd Jan 2007Wed 14-Jan-09 06:18 AM
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#58. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 57


Chicago, US
          

Hi folks,

I am a paying member and this site has helped me immensely in making good decisions in buying my gear. After lying low for a number of years, I am now a very active event photographer.

With the difficult economic times now and ahead of us, I can appreciate everybody trying to save money. Twenty five dollars could be very important for somebody else.

However, at the same time, I do have a hard time understanding that if you can afford to buy a Nikon camera and a couple of lenses and accessories, $25 annually is like paying taxes for a one time purchase of a lens. Whether you are a consumer or pro, buying a Nikon camera will set you back around $500 easy.

I am sorry but I don't get it.

Norm in Chicago

  

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barrycanada Registered since 30th Nov 2005Wed 14-Jan-09 01:31 PM
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#59. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 58


Windsor, CA
          

Best wishes in the future to all Nikonians, the founders and the site in general.

I won't be paying for a membership, so will not be a member after my 'free period' expires.

I have really enjoyed being a member for the last few years. I was a paying member for only one (1) year, a few years back.

While I totally agree that $25.00 is really very small change to a Nikon photographer, I disagree with the MANDATORY annual membership fee for ALL members.

Without question, the mandatory membership fee is a small price to pay for many members.

Especially those who like to post their photos, webpages, businesses, enter contests, sell and buy, watch podcasts, travel to Nikonian events, trips, workshops, post continually and repeatedly on most every topic, etc.

Personally, I enjoy occassionally entering the 'forums'. Thats about it for 95% of the time that I travel to the site.

I'm, just not into the rest of it.

Possibly, this new direction indicates that Nikonians has evolved into an enterprise that is trying to be too much to too many.

Again, I'll miss you Nikonians.

Best wishes and kindest regards to all, Barry Canada.



  

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Rickman Basic MemberWed 14-Jan-09 11:25 PM
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#60. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 59
Wed 14-Jan-09 11:28 PM by Rickman

Port Deposit, US
          

Well. I guess I'm like a few of you. I don't use many of the available resources, I don't contribute a lot of very useful info and do not have a lot of posts, especially compared to some (although I think I lost some in the post count with the server upgrade a while back). I was Silver for a few years just to support the site and I upgraded for the same reason, to support the site. I get much more here than some other sites. I enjoy it here. Folks are pleasant and civil for the most part unlike some of the other sites where flaming is a lifestyle. I know if I post a stupid question or a stupid answer to a question it will be answered or corrected as necessary with civility and without trying to embarrass or denigrate me. Seems like most all of the folks here truly want to help. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm comfortable here. And oh by the way I have really learned a lot here. Due to back problems I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I would like so I tend to stay behind in the learning curve as far as my skills development but the advise I get from the forums helps a lot, plus they are great reading most of the time. I think I'll stay a while. Thanks for listening.

Rick S
U.S.Army (Ret)
Fishing, photography - fishing, photography, one hobby too many?
Prov 16:16, God Bless.
Visit my gallery

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 12:45 AM
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#61. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 60


San Jose, US
          

Rick thanks for your comments. It is comments like yours that give me faith in the intelligence of our members who for whatever reasons realize that this site is not just about forums. I too am comfortable here and I also upgraded to support the site as I was getting more out of it than I was giving. I certainly know I have posted my share of stupid questions and answers and have also taken my share of critics of my pictures. All of it has helped me improve or make better decisions about my gear and its use.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Belders Friend Registered since 20th Dec 2008Thu 15-Jan-09 02:34 AM
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#63. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 61


CA
          

It's not about the money........


I'm out.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 04:12 AM
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#64. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 63


San Jose, US
          

I would be interested in hearing your reason.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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bkv959 Registered since 10th Jan 2009Thu 15-Jan-09 08:57 AM
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#65. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 64


US
          

I don't think many understand what is going on here. This site is under sale negotiation for between 8 and 10 million and can ask between 15-20 million if they can substantially up their paid member base.

Not a problem with me, it's part of the 'freedom of opportunity' - part of what this country offers. Color me jealous perhaps but they deserve what they work hard for. Check the amount of commercialism through the site and note what other sites are selling for.

Personally I think it's worth the money. Great site. But the non-member ARE presently providing a great amount of content. That will only become abundantly clear after the sale and after the new owners take over and realize some changes are needed to get the old non-paying members back.

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberThu 15-Jan-09 11:01 AM
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#66. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 65
Fri 16-Jan-09 02:55 AM by jrp

San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

Mac,
First, welcome to Nikonians.
Thank you very much for alerting us of this negotiation going on.
It must be among bidders and maybe they will let us know soon who won and inform us when they will start negotiations with us.
You seem to be very well informed, so If you could provide us with some names that would be good because we had not heard of any of this until your post.

If I am wrong on my assumptions after reading your post, we thank you then for your efforts to inject some humor to this thread.

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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aldewitt Registered since 16th May 2008Thu 15-Jan-09 02:45 PM
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#71. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 66


Jefferson City, US
          

Reminds me of when the news media was reporting that Mark Twain had died, and he was quoted as saying "reports of my death are wildly exaggerated."

I think the same is true here. Someone reads something someone posts on Flickr or somewhere else and the next thing you know its a "fact."

I think it was very kind of you to address this the way you did.

A. L. DeWitt
Jefferson City, MO

Cameras allow us to share the beauty in God's creation with others.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 06:12 PM
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#75. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 66


US
          

Hi JRP:

A lot of people run figures of how much the site costs based on number of threads, members, storage, etc, etc, etc. However, they overlook or take for granted the effort and time of dozens of people that either started Nikonians and/or keep it running – that it is not brought into the equation.

To me, $75/year is a pittance, because I just post here and enjoy the comradeship and the wealth of information without having to expend a single moment of my life running or helping to run this website. I’ve done it before and it is not easy and so time consuming.

Thanks for being a co-founder of Nikonians and the website. It is a great site. Period.

Best Regards,

Hektor (AKA: Ramesses)

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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pdelany Gold Member Nikonian since 06th Nov 2008Fri 16-Jan-09 01:48 AM
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#100. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 66


Canton, US
          

Thanks for the humor Ramón. Kudos to you and Bo for creating this site. Bob Baldassano’s auto signature could not be more accurate, the site is truly the most important investment I’ve made in my passion after the purchase of the camera. Thank you for all your hard work and thanks to all the moderators and the behind the scenes folks for their hard work, they are all appreciated. This site is more than worth the membership fee, regardless of the level. The only thing that disappoints me is the email I received today, we’re getting a new logo. I just got my ball cap, tripod leg covers, and tee shirt for Christmas, and now they’re obsolete. LOL, oh well. I look forward to seeing the new design. This site will live on!

Stop and take the picture, you may not get a second chance.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Tue 20-Jan-09 06:53 AM
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#165. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 100


Memphis, US
          

Thank you Patrick for the support! As far as the logo I love the new one but it did make my business card out of date but hey all my cameras are out of date! I guess I am just an out of date kinda guy.

Again thank you for the support.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 11:49 AM
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#67. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 65


Toronto, CA
          

>I don't think many understand what is going on here. This
>site is under sale negotiation for between 8 and 10 million
>and can ask between 15-20 million if they can substantially up
>their paid member base.

BAH! This is fantasy, rumor and wild speculation presented as facts.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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Northline Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Dec 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 04:59 PM
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#74. "BestRE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 63


Isle of Man, GB
          

>It's not about the money........
>
>
>I'm out.

With 1 post to your name I don't think you were actually 'in'

... beginning to see the light.

http://www.northlinephotography.com

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 06:33 PM
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#177. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 58


US
          

My point exactly.

If I couldn't afford $25, I'd probably sell all my stuff.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Thu 15-Jan-09 01:40 PM
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#68. "RE: Three different thoughts"
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

All the GOOD forums I contribute to are either restricted none public access - or paid membership - except until now Nikonians.
***
In the biggest recession in my lifetime advertising budgets - which probably paid 80% of Nikonians costs - are being slashed.
***
Two years from now there will be far fewer, but probably better, web sites to visit.
I am pleased Nikonians is taking the steps needed in the recession to maintain enough income to sustain long term survival.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberSun 25-Jan-09 12:00 AM
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#202. "RE: Three different thoughts"
In response to Reply # 68


San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

Len,

That is exactly what we are doing.

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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aldewitt Registered since 16th May 2008Thu 15-Jan-09 02:32 PM
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#69. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Jefferson City, US
          

Obviously the poster who concluded that Nikonians is burning through $2,000,000 a year can't multiply. 9000 x $25 = $225,000. Not even close to the two million mark.

The number of non-paying members is supposedly 143,000? These folks can't post in the forums now, so, if all they're doing is pillaging the site's information, sorry, but it's probably past time for them to go.

Nikonians, like a lot of web experiences, depends a little on honor. If this place isn't for someone, they can find that out in 25 days or less. If the information is good (and it is) and the posts are interesting and entertaining (they are), then in all fairness if you're going to derive some value from it, you should pay a little something for it.

It may seem hard to imagine that it costs upwards of $225,000 to run a website, but it apparently does. I trust the folks running this operation to manage the money. I doubt they're going to retire to the Caribbean on my membership fee.

The decisions made to focus on the community of people who are willing to support the site will turn out to be one of the best moves the Nikonians ever made.

So, buck up. This is not the end, this is just a new beginning.

A. L. DeWitt
Jefferson City, MO

Cameras allow us to share the beauty in God's creation with others.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 02:44 PM
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#70. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 69


St. Paul, US
          

""Let the bottom feeders and other parasites feed where they may as long as I don't have to read their sanctimonious pontifications of what should and what should not be…for free. Or, to put it another way, and as much as I've tried, I've never once enjoyed any attempted conversations I’ve pursued with parasites like a carp or a catfish. And, so, shall it always probably be...""

If this is the kind of dialogue I can expect after the "parasites" are gone, I will not be renewing and I will never look back. What a joke.




It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:35 PM
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#112. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 70


US
          

>""Let the bottom feeders and other parasites feed
>where they may as long as I don't have to read their
>sanctimonious pontifications of what should and what should
>not be…for free.
>If this is the kind of dialogue I can expect after the
>"parasites" are gone, I will not be renewing and I
>will never look back. What a joke.

Hi "Max Power"...

I'm sorry if any offense was taken from my post as none was intended toward you and/or any others who may similarly share your point of view.

With regard to the human condition as it relates to this matter, IMHO a parasite is one who benefits from the good efforts and positive, constructive contributions of others while not materially contributing themselves...and I suppose I'm sticking with that...

So, allow me to apologize once again while wishing you the best of luck in your Internet travels.

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 02:41 PM
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#115. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 112


US
          

Boki...

I think you may have raised one interesting point, and that is the possibility of a "student discount." That may be something for the owners/founders to consider.

As the father of four kids currently in college, I think I have a pretty good idea of how difficult it can be for some, particularly, during these economically distressed times. In this sense and for a kid who'd like to take a photography course(s), it's likely they may have to purchase some gear. Perhaps, a Student Discount for Nikonians membership might fall into the "every little bit helps" category for these young "budding" photographers.

With regard to their presumably mature, adult counterparts, the protests of "financial hardship" tend to ring hollow as I'd imagine most own and use a kit probably valued well in excess of $1k (at the least) and if they're reading this particular forum, probably twice that, and more...

Is it really possible that $25/year could be a "problem" to some in considering whether to subscribe to a site that provides as very, very much as this one does? I don't know, but I wouldn't think so...


Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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sjd996 Registered since 29th Jan 2008Thu 15-Jan-09 02:46 PM
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#72. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 69


US
          

"Obviously the poster who concluded that Nikonians is burning through $2,000,000 a year can't multiply. 9000 x $25 = $225,000. Not even close to the two million mark."

If you read JRP's post, that $225k covers only 13% of the sites costs, so that puts the costs at around $1.7 million. However that assumes all members are silver - add in the gold and platinum numbers and the number goes up.

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

  

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Bluefin Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Nov 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 03:53 PM
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#73. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 72


Danville, US
          

Stunned is the only way I can describe my reaction to this thread.

I can’t get a pizza delivered for less than $30.

I can’t buy a single tank of gas for less than $50.

I can’t get a haircut for $25.

I can’t get my car washed for $25.

My monthly co-pay for one medication is $35.

I can’t take my wife out for Chinese food for less than $40.

However, I can get an annual membership to a fabulous photography site that has saved me thousands and thousands of dollars over the years by providing the research I need to make excellent decisions about very expensive equipment that we all seem to have no issue about spending.

Please, don't reply, "it's not about the money". I hate throwing up all over my keyboard.....Mark

  

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TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 06:21 PM
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#76. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 73


Bay Area, US
          

Mark,

you may want to look for a cheaper pizza place and could try washing your own car, but you're right on about the value of Nikonians

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

  

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Bluefin Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Nov 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 08:06 PM
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#82. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 76


Danville, US
          

>Mark,
>
>you may want to look for a cheaper pizza place and could try
>washing your own car, but you're right on about the value of
>Nikonians


Tom,

I'm not complaining about a $30 pizza or the cost of a car wash.

I probably could find a cheaper pizza but it wouldn't taste as good and I could find a cheaper car-wash but they wouldn't be as thorough as the one I use now.

And isn't that the point? Are we willing to pay for value?

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 06:31 PM
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#77. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 73


US
          

Regrettably it probably isn't the money. In some peoples eyes being asked to pay for a forum is against their principals.

just my .02

Rags

  

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chili555 Registered since 11th Sep 2008Thu 15-Jan-09 06:59 PM
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#78. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 77


US
          

It's not about the money.

It's about a flawed business model. It's about a poor solution being foisted on all participants. It's about participant created content being sold back to the same participants for a minimum of $25 per year.

I read, at one time or another, a dozen or so forums, photo and otherwise. Some have many hundreds of times the number of posts and replies as Nikonians but have managed to survive quite nicely without using the pay to play model. Some of these forums have premium content that requires membership, which I understand. But I am free to evaluate whether the content is worth the premium and accept or decline without losing access to the basic forum.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Thu 15-Jan-09 07:36 PM
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#79. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 78


Memphis, US
          

The other photography site that is our size was bought out by a mega corperation. The smaller ones may start to drop off as advertising money is way down. Companies are cutting back and the first place they look is advertising. So this buisness model may become the norm vs the one. I belong to several sites and they are all struggling to stay afloat. One smaller site I belong too has already folded another one I visit had its annual fund drive but the owner still pays the lion share of the cost yet his site is much smaller.

As far as the content being sold back it is not the content its the delivery. When you mail a letter the post office is not charging you the content they are charging for the delivery just as Nikonians is here.

Kind Regards Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Bluefin Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Nov 2006Thu 15-Jan-09 07:59 PM
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#81. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 78


Danville, US
          

Anybody know where i can get a new keyboard for less than $25?

I just ate a $30 pizza, logged on to this thread and read about principles, flawed business models, etc., and lost my lunch all over my keyboard.

"Principals" would suggest that we should be delighted to pay $25 for such a value rich resource.

"Principals" would suggest that we respect the decision of the people who provide us with the opportunity to participate in this value rich resource because without access to their P&Ls and financial forecasts, any remarks about "flawed business model" is supremely unprincipled!

Now that I have lost my lunch, go ahead and be as silly as you like.

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 10:59 PM
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#87. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 78


Toronto, CA
          

>I read, at one time or another, a dozen or so forums, photo
>and otherwise. Some have many hundreds of times the number of
>posts and replies as Nikonians but have managed to survive
>quite nicely without using the pay to play model. Some of
>these forums have premium content that requires membership,
>which I understand. But I am free to evaluate whether the
>content is worth the premium and accept or decline without
>losing access to the basic forum.

According to IDG and Gartner, over 95% of people actively visiting free sites never opt to pay for memberships, even though well over 40% of that huge group state to interviewers that they are "actively considering purchasing a membership." Slate.com, Oxygen.com and dozens of other sites have moved from basic + pay, to completely free, to advertiser supported, to ads + membership and all sorts of other variations in an attempt to capture or establish a solid financial base.

Basically, people lie to themselves when they suggest that they're perusing or trying things out and considering paying for membership in any organization that offers huge value for free. It's a self-conscious statement designed to alleviate any momentary qualms about taking advantage of obviously valuable but currently free content. Any behavioral psychologist will confirm it all. It's also completely natural and unremarkable.

Nikonians offers a wealth of services and functions to paying members. If the site has reached the point where it is financially overburdened by the load of people making legitimate use of and contributing to its free content, then it has to make a change.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 11:14 PM
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#88. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 78


Toronto, CA
          

>It's not about the money.
>
>It's about a flawed business model. It's about a poor solution
>being foisted on all participants. It's about participant
>created content being sold back to the same participants for a
>minimum of $25 per year.

That's an old, tired red herring. I estimate that 40% of all posts on Nikonians are inconculsive, interrogative, expostulations, mildly self-aggrandizing statements and so on, with a bit of trolling mixed in on top of it all. That's actually a comparatively low percentage because other, less moderated and less structured sites (of all descriptions) that are totally free, exhibit a much higher percentage of inconsequential content. Very few of the other photos sites offer membership benefits, organized photography trips or indeed anything besides forum content. Anyone who has contributed freely in Nikonians forums up to now, and who is prepared to state now that they consciously thought, at the time they were writing their posts, that those posts were worth actual pennies or dollars, is either lying or delusional.

The fact is that a lot of the good posts are also contributed by paying members. So by your same reasoning, Basic members have always regularly taken advantage of contributions made by paying members. Of course that's also a ridiculous viewpoint because paying members, to my knowledge over the years at Nikonians, have never even so much as hinted at any resentment or need for compensation from Basic members. The notion, both ways, is utterly and unalterably absurd.

We participate in Nikonians and visit other sites to get information and answers, not specifically to give information and answers. If a forum and site is well run, we find ourselves spending more time at the site and end up either deliberately or inadvertently contributing.

The vast majority of Nikonians members ask questions and present problems looking for solutions. But it's the smaller minority offer which offers the majority of answers. It's true at Nikonians and at every other technical and creative site on the Web today. The exceptions are rare indeed.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005Thu 15-Jan-09 11:33 PM
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#89. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 88


Mount Arlington, US
          

I am more of a taker than a giver on this sight, however, I'm still learning photography and this sight is very helpful. I will continue to be a paying member and hope more people will see the value of membership. I don't see anything else out there like this one!

Tony T

  

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dazman47 Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Sep 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 08:25 PM
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#84. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 77


Tacoma, US
          

"Regrettably it probably isn't the money"
I think I hear Mark puking on his keyboard!

There are easier ways to waste money such as parking tickets, late movie rental returns, cigarette's, Starbuck's lattes every day, special 3M paint coating options on new cars, fake car warranties mailed to me every month. I'd be surprised if any one runs their household with every penny accounted for (excluding fixed income).

I felt I needed to join because I got a lot of information from the forums. It did take me more than 3 months to decide because I was using around website at the time.

I love to get things for free, but I think if it's worthwhile and supports a community - then I feel like I should contribute.

just $25 worth of opinions...

Dave
My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Thu 15-Jan-09 07:48 PM
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#80. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 73


Memphis, US
          

With the exception of the car wash our full service is $15 most of this is true, plus the car wash last about a week, the pizza a few hours but for $25 dollars you get 365 days of the best Nikon related site on the web.

Anyway I just wanted to thank you for your support and kind words. Early returns our that the membership is responding in a big way and for that I thank all of you.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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philipl Gold Member Nikonian since 31st May 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 11:50 PM
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#90. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Oxford, US
          

I joined Nikonians not long after getting back into photography and getting a D200. This place has been an awsome resource! I have learned a great deal and not bought "the wrong (lens, flash etc)" because of this site. I would likely have bought hundreds of dollars worth of books and ongoing magazine subscriptions and not learned what I have here.

I'm embarrassed that I have only bought a gold membership and feel like I may be "ripping Nikonians off a bit"

This place is a great value for $25 bucks a year.

Philip

  

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bokiphoto Registered since 09th Jan 2007Thu 15-Jan-09 11:50 PM
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#91. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

as a new member, i value the nikonians forums for the information, and for the sense of community.

sadly, i may not be able to stay around, as my family's budget is very thin, and it's hard to justify paying for the "luxury" of forum use, when i don't want or need the advantages that were previously only available to members at premium levels.
i know it seems like a small amount of money to most of you, but for some of us, it makes a difference, and a measurable one, weighed against trying to pay for groceries, gasoline, and heating bills.
hopefully, in the future, our employment situation will change, and $25 will be a pittance.

i participate in about a dozen quality forums that i get useful information from, where i can contribute to the community without paying. a small part of the screen is advertisments, .. that's the price i pay.
if i had to pay $25 for every forum i value, i'd be in deep.

one criticism of the nikonians forum that i had heard, but never witnessed (until this thread), is that "they're a bunch of rude elitists".

this post, from long ranger, the originator of this thread, showed particular nastiness, ...

>>"Let the bottom feeders and other parasites feed where they may as long as I don't have to read their sanctimonious pontifications of what should and what should not be…for free. Or, to put it another way, and as much as I've tried, I've never once enjoyed any attempted conversations I’ve pursued with parasites like a carp or a catfish. And, so, shall it always probably be..."

who's calling who, sanctimonious?
just because money is tight for my family, i am not a "bottom feeder", or a "parasite", nor "carp or a catfish".

i am a reader and a contributor.

he goes on, ...

>>"Long live the Nikonians and the folks who have the principle, dignity and honor"

you, long ranger dick, have no "principle, dignity, and honor", to throw such insults, at people you don't know, who have less money than you.

you, dick, .. are one.
if i do find that i cannot fit the new membership fee into my budget, i will miss the quality of many folks here,
but you are one of the low sort, that i shall not miss.

tcb, boki-san

  

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Bluefin Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Nov 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 12:05 AM
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#92. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 91


Danville, US
          

Boki,

I was worried that there might be someone like you who truly could not afford to join this forum.

You must be unemployed and have no other sources of income other than govt assistance.

If that is true and you are sincere, I would gladly pay for your first year subscription to Nikonians. I believe with the discount all you need is $20 to sign up for the first year. Hopefully when the time comes to renew your financial situation will have improved.

Please let me know if I can help you remain a part of this community......Mark

  

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bokiphoto Registered since 09th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:22 AM
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#95. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 92


US
          

>Boki,
>
>I was worried that there might be someone like you who truly
>could not afford to join this forum.
>
>You must be unemployed and have no other sources of income
>other than govt assistance.
>
>If that is true and you are sincere, I would gladly pay for
>your first year subscription to Nikonians. I believe with the
>discount all you need is $20 to sign up for the first year.
>Hopefully when the time comes to renew your financial
>situation will have improved.
>
>Please let me know if I can help you remain a part of this
>community......Mark

i am unemployed, but am receiving no government assistance.

i cannot accept your offer.
there will be dozens of dozens like me, who have to face the choice of leaving nikonians, or not.
many of those are grade school students would have greatly benefited from the knowledge here. the help i got 40 years ago, to get me started in photography was always freely given to eager ears.
cameras were loaned, film and chemistry flowed.
i am much less deserving of your financial aid, than the kids that are just getting their tripod legs underneath them.

in contrast to the scorn that some here have exhibited, ...
your sincerity and generosity, mark, is an example of what i will miss about this forum.


tcb, boki-san

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 12:09 AM
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#93. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 91


St. Paul, US
          

I see a lot of justification about what $25 gets you in society today. That's fine, and a fair point, but when employing a requirement of paying for the content, you have to consider a couple of things:

1. How many forums are people actually participating in? and,

2. Is the content available elsewhere for less.

I think many non-paying members belong to many forums, I belong to over 3 dozen for my various hobbies. It would cost me a lot of monet to pay at all of them, and most I would just drop.

Also, like the newspaper business, you have to look at your competition. Where there is a lot of great information here, Google is a click away.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:36 AM
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#97. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 93
Fri 16-Jan-09 12:40 AM by agitater

Toronto, CA
          

>I think many non-paying members belong to many forums, I
>belong to over 3 dozen for my various hobbies. It would cost
>me a lot of money to pay at all of them, and most I would just
>drop.

There's a solid argument that can be made for participating in fewer forums. Perhaps the smartest move for all of us is to consider participating only in the best moderated and best organized forums, paying for memberships in those select few and spending more time in each of those few because we're not spending so much of our valuable time sifting through the lower quality forums elsewhere.

>Also, like the newspaper business, you have to look at your
>competition. Where there is a lot of great information here,
>Google is a click away.

If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it and, thereafter, expressing authoritative information. It just doesn't happen. The simple reason is that Googling a particular term, word or problem is no guarantee of getting worthwhile results. Once again, if it was that easy, forums such as Nikonians would not exist in any form because Google (and Yahoo, MSN, etc., etc.) would magically read our minds (to compensate for our poorly formed searches) and come up with directly relevant and authoritative information. The reality is that for the vast majority of people using Google to find specific answers to photography questions, the search results (after you sort through all the paid ad placements and non-relevant junk which increasingly pollutes Google's search results pages) lead them to sites such as Nikonians. QED dude.

Without well managed, deeply layered sites like Nikonians (and DPReview and a couple of others in decreasing order of value to me), Google is worthless. Heavy duty value offered by sites such as Nikonians costs real money to operate, maintain and grow. The alternatives don't exist outside local and regional camera clubs or photography clubs (and their meetings only once or twice per month, BTW). Of course there's always Wikipedia, but it's full of unchallenged opinion, precious little peer review (without which so-called authoritative statements and propositions, definitions and explanations are fundamentally untrustworthy), and far too many obvious errors in far too many places.

Google and all the rest are functionally useless without content to which they can refer. Nikonians is at once a foundational community of sorts and a highly valuable source of content to which Google and all the rest of the search engines regularly point.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 02:01 AM
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#102. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 93


San Jose, US
          

Bob the ultimate decision is always with the member. He has to decide if the $25 he spends here is worth it to him or would he rather spend $25 elsewhere. I think all people are saying is that for those who can afford $25 a year, that they should consider the value of what they are getting. If in the end after all the discussion, you decide that it is not then you should leave the Nikonians fold and don't look back. This whole thread started about a concern of a massive exodus of membership because people were being asked to pony up for use of material that had been available free, although there were 15% of the members who thought it was valuable enough to pay for it. So in summary if you think you can do better elsewhere you have free choice. Those of us who value the experience will stay.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:17 AM
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#94. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 91


Toronto, CA
          


>this post, from long ranger, the originator of this thread,
>showed particular nastiness, ...
>
>>>"Let the bottom feeders and other parasites
>feed where they may as long as I don't have to read their
>sanctimonious pontifications of what should and what should
>not be�for free. Or, to put it another way, and as much as
>I've tried, I've never once enjoyed any attempted
>conversations I�ve pursued with parasites like a carp or a
>catfish. And, so, shall it always probably be..."

>
>who's calling who, sanctimonious?
>just because money is tight for my family, i am not a
>"bottom feeder", or a "parasite", nor
>"carp or a catfish".

>
>i am a reader and a contributor.

Boki-san you've got it way wrong. He was not referring to participants like you - not by a long shot. He was referring to several posters who replied to the impending changes at Nikonians with anger, petulance and pettiness at suddenly being essentially cut off from free access to a hugely valuable resource. You have no reason to feel as though his response was directed at you and, respectfully, I think you should always consider reading several posts published ahead of any particular comment or response in order to understand the context in which it was written.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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bokiphoto Registered since 09th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:29 AM
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#96. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 94


US
          

>Boki-san you've got it way wrong. He was not referring to
>participants like you - not by a long shot. He was referring
>to several posters who replied to the impending changes at
>Nikonians with anger, petulance and pettiness at suddenly
>being essentially cut off from free access to a hugely
>valuable resource.

i don't think i got him wrong. he said what he said.
i think you're being generous.

>You have no reason to feel as though his
>response was directed at you and, respectfully, I think you
>should always consider reading several posts published ahead
>of any particular comment or response in order to understand
>the context in which it was written.

i did read through the whole thread. every post.
the context in which he was posting, made me feel like it was directed at people like me, who want to participate but can't/won't pay.

dick seems articulate enough, that he could have worded it differently, if he meant it differently.


tcb, boki-san

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:42 AM
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#98. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 96


US
          

Boki, remember he is just one. Consider the other responses of kindness and accommodation.

Hopefully your situation will change and you will be welcomed back, because you bring benefit here for us and yourself.

Rags



  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 12:48 AM
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#99. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 96
Fri 16-Jan-09 12:51 AM by agitater

Toronto, CA
          

>dick seems articulate enough, that he could have worded it
>differently, if he meant it differently.

Sorry man . . . I just re-read that part of the thread (and several other original threads on this genuinely touchy subject) and I completely disagree with your interpretation. He was referring to a very specific and vitriolic few who posted what amounted to mildly venomous responses to the announcement of changes.

I confess to writing a similar response/comment to his, but in another thread. I don't regret writing it, but several people posted genuinely disparaging responses to my comment. They took offense at the tone of my comments but at the same time took no offense at the vehement and petulant comments of the small group I was criticizing. That's a double standard. And this post is merely an observation, not a criticism of you or your feelings on the subject. I'm just disagreeing with you, but like me, you're obviously entitled to your feelings and views on the matter.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 01:52 AM
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#101. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 91


San Jose, US
          

Boki:

Some members may go a bit overboard here, but that in my experience has not been the general way Nikonians have conducted themselves. I certainly realize many people do have a hardship, and when you are trying to feed your family that $25 may be all thre is between you and an empty stomach. It is not people like you that have upset some of the paying members, it is people who can afford to pay and choose rather to take advantage of the generosity of others and get a free ride, while protesting that on principal they were going to buy a membership, but because they were now asked to, they are offended and are leaving. Bo and JRP are considering many ways to make the membership have more value, so I would ask for a little patience and maybe there might be a way to provide some service at a lower cost. Since I am not an owner, but only a member, I cannot promise that this will happen, but I do know that they are looking for input on how to make the experience more valuable and there are on going discussions.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 05:11 AM
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#103. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 101


US
          

Okay, I'm not trying to personally attack anyone here but $25 to support a great community or feed your family. Come on!!! If you can't afford $25, how do you afford your computer, your internet, your camera equipment etc. If $25 was going to break my budget, I'd probably sell all my photography equipment as well.

The way I see it, business model good or bad, I'm supporting this site with my $25 because I like it here. I don't use any of the features except buy/sell. I accidentally let my membership expire and I actually felt bad.

And for those non-paying members with their wealth of knowledge to bestow upon us, I hope you stay, but if you leave it'll be your lost. Helping people is a reward in itself and good karma. I learn everyday and love sharing what I have learned. I'm sure 9,000 people will still make a great community.

And lastly, other forums are no where near as helpful and experienced as this one. This community helps everyone with open arms and no question is a stupid question.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 05:51 AM
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#104. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 103


San Jose, US
          

Chad I am not trying to make judgements on peoples responses, and while i agree with you that if $25 was keeping the wolf away from the door, I too would be selling my stuff, but I certainly would not put myself in anyones shoes. When I was 21 and in the military, I often spent my entire paycheck to take care of my family every month, so I know how that is, but I didn't have any frills in my budget. Like I said in earlier posts, people have to make up their own mind if Nikonians is worth $25 to them. We can point out why we value it, but they ultimately have to make the decision if it of value to them, no matter what I think. At the same time, if they choose that it is not, I don't expect them to trash Nikonians, but rather leave quietly.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 06:08 AM
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#105. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 104


US
          

robsb,

I agree with you 100%. I guess I took some of the comments a bit personal. When I hear certain people say how this community isn't worth $25, then I say leave. Complaining and whinning about bad business model, doom and gloom, and how they do all the helping is annoying.

And yes I remember the days as a young Corporal, wife and new baby. All my extra money was spent at the Commissary. I ate realy good! But I didn't have a $600+ digital camera! I'm not trying to stand in anyones' shoes but we are in the D700 forum. Hmmm $25 vs $2500 for a D700!? I'm just reasoning here like those who refuse to pay $25.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 06:20 AM
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#106. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 105


US
          

Also when I was a young Corporal, I couldn't afford a computer or the internet. I went to the library. Some of the people who are complaining and stating they can't afford/or refuse to pay $25 have more equipment than me. That's a lot of $$$$, so its hard not to be a bit offended by them.

Again not standing in their shoes just looking there profiles!

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Fri 16-Jan-09 12:34 PM
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#111. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 105


Memphis, US
          

Chad and Bob first thank you for your service I am a retired Navy Corpsman and really understand how little an enlisted mans paychecks can be, been there and done that.

Now I truly feel that $25 dollars are well spent and this site is worth it.

Thank you both for the support!

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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artizen65 Registered since 02nd Jan 2008Fri 16-Jan-09 12:12 PM
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#110. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 91


Littleton, US
          

>as a new member, i value the nikonians forums for the
>information, and for the sense of community.
>

boki

I am going to direct this post directly at you. You are more than welcome to send me an email.

I have been taking photography classes at ACC the local community college since 2004, not every semester but at a cost of $560.00 for 3 credit hours it adds up. Even with my Colorado stipend they are $286.00 a class.

So I will ask you to evaluate this thread and ask your self 2 questions. If you were to attend college and needed financial assistance would you seek it and then follow through to earn the grades to keep it. Question 2 how do you feel about people who take advantage of your tax dollars because they refuse to get out there and earn it.

So I will also offer to cover your membership. Join those of us that care. Get out there kick some ass and take names later.

There are people who get out there and do what they can when times are tough. The survivors, and then there are those that just whimper afraid of day labor to put food on the table. They expect the government to pick up the tab for them.

$25.00 a year to be a nikonian vs $286.00 a semester for a 3 credit hour photography class.

Tough call isn't it.

So I ask you where your values are.

The offer to pay for your membership will always be there. Why because some people get out there and earn it.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Voodoo Registered since 29th Apr 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 10:25 AM
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#107. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

at the end of the day, I am just happy this site is here and I get to participate.

if you dont feel good coming here, dont.

and I do wish the internet and everything on it was free to see...

but thats not the world economy

Thanks for sharing,

Jeff

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 11:50 AM
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#108. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 107


St. Paul, US
          

<<If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it and, thereafter, expressing authoritative information. It just doesn't happen. The simple reason is that Googling a particular term, word or problem is no guarantee of getting worthwhile results. Once again, if it was that easy, forums such as Nikonians would not exist in any form because Google (and Yahoo, MSN, etc., etc.) would magically read our minds (to compensate for our poorly formed searches) and come up with directly relevant and authoritative information. The reality is that for the vast majority of people using Google to find specific answers to photography questions, the search results (after you sort through all the paid ad placements and non-relevant junk which increasingly pollutes Google's search results pages) lead them to sites such as Nikonians. QED dude.>>

Say I am looking for a lens, I know what my options are. I type in that lens into Google, and I get Bjorn, Hogan, DPReview and a host of ther test sites that give me a ton of information. If I think it is all a little too commercial, I can pop into flickr, the Cafe, etc, to get various opinions. All free, and all good information.

I erecently picked up a manual focus Vivitar 19mm 3.5 wide angle lens. I started a thread in the Manual Focus section to see if anybody had any opinions on it. Not one response in a month. I Google it up and find a have dozen tests out there. Nikonians is far from the only source of info out there, and that is what they are competing with. QED Dude.




It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 11:58 AM
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#109. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 108


St. Paul, US
          

<<Bob the ultimate decision is always with the member. He has to decide if the $25 he spends here is worth it to him or would he rather spend $25 elsewhere. I think all people are saying is that for those who can afford $25 a year, that they should consider the value of what they are getting. If in the end after all the discussion, you decide that it is not then you should leave the Nikonians fold and don't look back. This whole thread started about a concern of a massive exodus of membership because people were being asked to pony up for use of material that had been available free, although there were 15% of the members who thought it was valuable enough to pay for it. So in summary if you think you can do better elsewhere you have free choice. Those of us who value the experience will stay.>>

Bob, I'm well aware of what my options are. I have valued the content here enough in the past to pay for it. Fortunately, this is the only board demanding money right now.

My concern, as a paying member, is that chasing 75% of the activity away from this site will render my contribution worthless. I have no interest in belonging to a little clique, and I feel this new policy will probably do that to this place. I feel I have paid for the right to be concerned, and not have people like the Long Ranger call me a bottom feeder for doing so.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Fri 16-Jan-09 12:38 PM
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#113. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 109


Memphis, US
          

I share your concern Max and our hope is that we do not chase away 75% of the membership. Early returns are this will not happen but all I ask is give the plan some time. The owners of this site did not create this site to see it fail. I have the utmost confidence they will do what it takes to keep Nikonians in the forefront and cutting edge of Nikon photography.

Thanks for your concern. Kind Regards Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 02:36 PM
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#114. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 113


St. Paul, US
          

I am paid through June, so I will definitely give it a chance. I did take myself off of auto-renewal though, as I want to assess it at that time.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 03:54 PM
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#116. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 114


US
          

I don't think 100% of the 143,000 people participate so I think the majority leaving will be non-participants and those who just don't see the value.

I'm sure this site knows who participates and who doesn't. I'm sure they ran the numbers and wouldn't have made the change unless it was in their favor. I don't blame them for this. All companies research. If Nikonians wasn't looking at self interest and the future they'd surely fail as a business. As individuals we do the same so you can't blame companies that do the same.

I agree that this site can't answer every question, but for me it helps out 95% of the time. Other sites are good but its nice to have so much experience in one place. At times I have disagreed with people here but their experience gets me thinking.

Unfortunately, there probably isn't much traffic in the manual lens section. Sometimes you have to be creative and put it in your camera section and ask how that lens works with that particular camera.

Also someone commented on us being elitest....but I'd disagree with that statement. Once in a while you get someone who complains about stupid beginner questions or make rude comments. I have noticed a backlash against those types of people. People are quickly reminded that we are here to learn. No one forces you to click on the thread.."How do I turn on my camera?"

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 05:55 PM
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#117. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 116


St. Paul, US
          

I would guess that of the 150,000 registered users, they would be lucky to have 15,000 that are active, if participation here is like other boards. I can't tell you how many boards I have signed up on just to ask a couple basic questions and then never went back. Hopefully, if the true umber of active members here is pretty low, than there won't be much fall off.

I know that manual lens section isn't the most active, but it goes to illustrate that Google perhaps isn't the waste of time others have suggested.

Another example. I posted a nice lightly used Sigma 18-50 2.8 in the for sale section and had no responses in a week of bumping. I put it on ebay and had 19 bidders and sold it for what I was asking. Again, just another illustration that info and features are also available elsewhere.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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Bluefin Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Nov 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 06:31 PM
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#118. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 117


Danville, US
          

Max,

I put 2 Zeiss lenses, a Nikon 85mm, a Nikon 24-120, an F5 and an L bracket for sale on this web site last week and they were all gone within the week. All the buyers were courteous, prompt with payment and I couldn't be more thrilled. So there ya go......

I've been to other sites and although they may have something to offer on occasion, I know at this website I can find data I need and trust. How about that.....

Incredible huh? Same websites and two completely different opinions! Imagine that! I guess some people will stay here and others will move on.

And all this hand wringing over $25? I think it's time to unsubscribe to this thread.....Have a great day.

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 06:37 PM
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#119. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 117


US
          

Max,

Again I find it hard to believe that the administrators didn't crunch some numbers before deciding to change the policy. Like you said I don't think a high percentage of the 143,000 plus are active. Besides 15,000 people isn't bad. The moderators here are also excellent. I've argued (I mean disagreed) with a few, but they still know what they're talking about and get you thinking (learning). Once I personally e-mailed JRP and he responded. That's awesome and worth $25!

I also agree with you on your Google comment. But it's comparing apples and oranges to some degree. I think everyone recognizes there are certain limitations on Nikonians.

For example, I asked about color management and how to get my monitor to match my prints. No help what so ever. But then again color management is a confusing subject and even so called experts are clueless. Some even write books and call it helpful .

But I don't hold this against Nikonians or the people here because most of the people here are photographers not Photoshop artist (no offense to those who are). Most people here don't really care about color management, post processing, and matching prints etc.

Now if I asked about a camera function or a more photograhy related question, I'd get lots of good answers. On other sites I've visited the experience level was not the same. Some of those sites wouldn't even answer the most basic questions.

Also, not that we're stuck up, but I've noticed the majority here prefer Nikon glass so maybe another reason why your sigma didn't sell. You can't really compare Nikonians Buy/Sell forum to Ebay.

I initially try find answer here but when I can't I Google. Google is awesome and I don't think people would disagree.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 09:06 PM
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#120. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 119


St. Paul, US
          

Actually, when I am paying for both, damn straight I can compare Nikonians to ebay.

I am not trying to knock Nikonians. I am just suggesting that when you create a business model, you should consider what else is available out there and at what cost. Nikonions hardly has the market cornered on most of this stuff, and the should consider that when determining the fee.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 09:29 PM
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#121. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 120


US
          

Dammit Max... you're too rational... Stop it!

That said, it's nice to hang out with others who suffer from NAS. I mean it's like going to AA and knowing you're not going to get cured.

Rags

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 10:27 PM
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#122. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 108


Toronto, CA
          


>I recently picked up a manual focus Vivitar 19mm 3.5 wide
>angle lens. I started a thread in the Manual Focus section to
>see if anybody had any opinions on it. Not one response in a
>month. I Google it up and find a have dozen tests out there.
>Nikonians is far from the only source of info out there, and
>that is what they are competing with. QED Dude.

Wow . . . nobody every stated or even suggested that Nikonians was the only source of info out there, just that Google (in and of itself) only exists because there is information to find on Nikonians and the other sites I mentioned (which many of us, like you, regularly peruse). Personally, I would rather have fully paid access to the huge store of data on Nikonians and search for answers to photography questions here first, before resorting to Google, Yahoo or MSN searches. I'd rather search DPReview forums next (if, rare though it is, the answer I need can't be found on Nikonians) before wading through the morass of junk provided on Google search results pages in order to get to relevant information.

Bjorn's site and NikonGear.com seem quite useful, but a vicious bout of Lyme Disease nailed Bjorn and of course his site languished as a result. The same is true of other free sites (such as LuminousLandscape.com, KenRockwell.com, etc., etc.) which are essentially blogs and therefore languish when the owners are off on assignment or working on projects. By contrast, paid sites and/or ad-supported sites such as Nikonians and DPReview simply aren't subject to the sort of downtime which occurs when a site owner is laid low, because sufficient paid staff exist to continue maintaining and growing the site.

Frankly, when it's all free, too often discussion threads descend into trivialities, childishness, flaming and so on. Twas every thus - I go back to the BBS and netboard days of GENIE and CompuServe when flaming was truly an evolving written art form as opposed to the vapid, tasteless and unimaginative nonsense it seems to be today. Still, we didn't like flaming then and few of us like it now. The point is that when it's all free, it seems exceedingly difficult to maintain consistently high quality discussion forums. The opposite is true on paid membership sites, and although a few exceptions crop up from time to time, they're quite rare. That's inherent in the act of using something for which we've paid because so many of us feel that once we've laid down our money for membership, access or what-have-you, that a more stringent (or at least a more considered) set of rules and attitudes applies to our use of and contribution to the services for which we've paid.

I've never wanted to bounce from site to site to site, all of which are free, engaging in or reading discussion forums only so long as the free site (or a particular discussion topic) remains civilized and useful. The reason is trustworthiness of information and mid-to-long term knowledge about the people who are contributing. Regular membership and regular participation give us all the opportunity to single out individuals who clearly demonstrate expertise in a specific area. By the same token, our own active contributions to the paid sites to which we belong gradually hone our personal areas of keen interest and help make us authoritative on some subjects. Too often over the years, I've looked for individuals who seemed dedicated to a particular free site, only to find that things had changed on the free site (due to lack of management, lack of moderators, lack of self-control on the part of participants, and so on) and the individual I was looking for had moved on. The opposite is true at Nikonians and (to a lesser extent) at DPReview, something which I believe clearly demonstrates the value of having in place staff who are regularly and reasonably well compensated for their efforts. It takes money, and memberships are a decent (but certainly can't be the sole) revenue source.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sat 17-Jan-09 05:53 AM
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#126. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 122


San Jose, US
          

Howard I too date back to the BBS, Genie and Compuserve. My first computer was an Ohio Scientific CP8 which I still have. Those were the days of acoustic modems and watching your text scroll on screen one character at a time. I sure don't miss those days.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Sat 17-Jan-09 06:43 AM
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#127. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 126


US
          

I'm just over 30 but have no idea what you're talking about haha. Compuserve sounds familar. The first time I used the internet was on the USS Belleau Woood. I'm sure it was slow but E-mail was awesome compared to regular mail.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sat 17-Jan-09 10:10 PM
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#129. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 127


Toronto, CA
          

Try a 300 Baud acoustic modem today (if you can even find a relic at a garage sale let alone the means to hook it up - nothing will handshake with it anymore), and try a text connection. It's like watching paint dry - old, oil paint that is.

Those were the days.

Some guy would turn himself into a sysop by buying (or hacking together) a BBS software package. Then he'd tell a bunch of like-minded friends (or the membership at his computer club or photography club or whatever), set up two incoming POTS lines, and people would dial in (the maximum number of concurrent users was restricted by the number of incoming phone lines and the usually strict limitations of the BBS software). We'd post in a photography BBS forum and sometimes wait for days before the right guy with the right answer could get through on the BBS to read different threads. You had to be fast too, because sysops often logged people off automatically after a certain number of minutes, so most people used software which automatically cruised preselected forums and downloaded all new posts. You'd then respond or write new posts, log back on, and the software would toss everything into the correct forums and threads, whereafter you could either continue browsing threads until your time limit was up or log off.

A flame war could last for weeks.

Those were the days.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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tzakiel Registered since 03rd Nov 2006Fri 16-Jan-09 11:12 PM
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#123. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Alexandria, US
          

The thing is, it's all the image hosting and advanced features that are driving up the costs... but wouldn't most people prefer to have just the forums and discussions and get rid of all the extra stuff taking up so much space and bandwidth, if it meant free or lower cost membership for everyone?



_______________________________________________________

http://www.jonvandalen.com/newblog

Nikon D700
Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR
Nikkor 50mm f/1.8
Nikon SB-600 Flash

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 16-Jan-09 11:32 PM
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#124. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 123


US
          

Yes, I'd agree with that, but I use Zenfolio to host my pictures, cost twice as much as there.

But on the other hand is $25 for great discussions and resources really that expensive when relative to all the other cost associated with this hobby!?

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Sat 17-Jan-09 02:16 AM
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#125. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 124


SE
          

I use zenfolio to host my pictures too, since I have LR2 and Jeff's plug-in.

I haven't payed for a membership here, because I haven't used any of the features associated with it.

I decided to support the site now by buying DD's book on D300 and at the same time getting the gold membership.

However, I tended to agree that paying shouldn't have been made obligatory. On the other hand, I have no idea how much it cost/you earn on the traffic for a website.

I also agree that if you can afford a camera and equipment, $25 is not much.

With that said, I still think a student discount should be seriously considered.

___________________________________

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Or have a look at fling.zenfolio.com

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Sat 17-Jan-09 08:19 AM
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#128. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 125


Memphis, US
          

Jonas thank you for the support and I never thought about a student discount I will breing that up with the owners.

Kind Regards Jim and Thanks

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Ed Basic MemberSun 18-Jan-09 06:09 AM
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#135. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 124


US
          

>But on the other hand is $25 for great discussions and
>resources really that expensive when relative to all the other
>cost associated with this hobby!?

You're getting repetitive. You would just have to accept that some people never pay for "great discussions" elsewhere, and that some people never use website "resources", etc. Therefore, for them, being forced to pay $25 is an affront. This expensive hobby is irrelevant in this argument, in fact, for some of us it's not even a hobby but a profession. The fact remains: $25 is huge when the perceived return value is nil. Everyone's situation is different, and we all come from all walks of life, with different opinions. You see the value for your $25, some people don't. It's as simple as that. Some see the value but truly can't afford it. There's a few who see the value of Nikonians but takes offense at being forced to pay. I say, whatever. But you know what, life goes on. I'll keep shooting with or without Nikonians.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 18-Jan-09 06:51 AM
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#137. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 135


San Jose, US
          

Ed a number of posts back I too said that we really can't judge people who say that the $25 is a hardship as we don't know. I even said that each person has to decide whether the $25 payed is of value to them and if not they should just go elsewhere, with no hard feelings. People are posting two or three types of comments. Some are saying they can't afford $25, and will have to go, some ar saying they value Nikonians and will stay, and some are saying in principle I either don't find Nikonians gies me $25 of value or they are ofended that they now have to pay for something 15% of the people have paid for all along. But I have to tell you looking at your list of gear, you could buy and sell my investment in hardware many times over, so my guess is $25 is not a hardship for you, but rather you are one of the people who believe Nikonians doesn't give you a $25 value. It is not clear to me whether you put yourself in the "offended" group. So my question to you is a simple one. Assuming my comments about you are correct, and you are one of the ones who does not find value in Nikonians, why are you still coming to the site? I ask this because those of us who are staying, are trying to understand how to make Nikonians better and we are reading all the threads and looking for insight on what needs improvement.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Sun 18-Jan-09 07:38 AM
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#138. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 137


US
          

WOW Bob is a smart guy!

Wonder what Ed is going to say? Or has he already left and started shooting without Nikonians!?

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Ed Basic MemberSun 18-Jan-09 03:22 PM
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#139. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 138
Sun 18-Jan-09 03:25 PM by Ed

US
          

Bob, thanks for the cogent reply. First off, let's shelve right now some people's argument that having all these expensive gear we all have, it follows that we SHOULD be able to afford a mere $25. That's pure BS. Even being well-off and able to afford the finer things in life does not mean we throw away good money for nothing. The argument really is the value. The real question for most people is: Is Nikonians worth $25?

Personally, it is not worth $25 to me. There is some value, but it's not $25 (to me). Can I put a price on what I get out of Nikonians? Maybe.

You see, I was an avid Nikonian back in its first 3 or 4 years. JRP even requested me to write an article on the Arca-Swiss ballhead, Nikon's flash system and Nikon lens history, probably after seeing my numerous posts on the subjects. I only had time to do the Arca-Swiss ballhead review. This was during Nikonian's initial days when the Markins ballhead was "discovered" by a trusted Nikonian member and JRP was thinking of endorsing it on the website.

You see, I was one of the original Silver members, and it was of my own volition. Back when Bo and JRP offered it without expiry. Considering I only participated in the forums and never used any of the website's offerings, I felt a little betrayed when they instituted a new rule after a few months that Silver memberships now only last a year, thus ending my Silver membership.

So to answer your question, yes I do see value in Nikonians but it's not a $25 value. Therefore being forced to pay $25 "or get out", my choice is easy.

Why do I still come to this site? That's a silly question (sorry). You might as well ask why I visit a dozen other Nikon sites and belong to half-a-dozen Nikon mailing lists and groups (fredmiranda, flickr, photo.net, nikoncafe, nikonmf group, etc.).

When my 25 days end, I will be sorry to leave Nikonians, that's a fact. Although I've never met Bo and JRP, I've exchanged enough emails with JRP 7 to 8 years ago, and I know they are decent men. I particulary saw it in how he edited my Arca-Swiss article to be a little more rounded. I do know in my heart they have their own reasons for changing the membership structure and it's not something they thought up overnight. Having said all that, this whole thing is not for me.

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Sun 18-Jan-09 05:18 PM
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#140. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 139


US
          

>Personally, it is not worth $25 to me.

Okay, Ed, then could this comment finally (please) be an end of your venom? I mean...enough is enough! Whatever you decide to do or wherever you decide to go is fine with me...as long as I don't have to feel compelled to read any more of it.

You've more than made your point so maybe now the time has come to just say good-bye and farewell. Good luck...all best wishes...and here's hoping you find whatever it is you're looking for...

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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Ed Basic MemberSun 18-Jan-09 05:24 PM
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#141. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 140


US
          

Wow, Dick. Sorry if "venom" came across. That was not in my mind at all.

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Sun 18-Jan-09 06:06 PM
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#142. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 139


US
          

Ed I think you miss the point on the $25 dolllar argument. When people say they can't "afford" that has nothing to do with "value." I think everyone agrees that if you find no value then leave, but don't tell me how your poor and how Nikonians is forcing out the poor. How's that BS!?

You say, "Why do I still come to this site? That's a silly question (sorry)."

How is that a silly question? On one hand you say.....

"Personally, it is not worth $25 to me."

"Having said all that, this whole thing is not for me."

On the other hand you say...

"When my 25 days end, I will be sorry to leave Nikonians, that's a fact."


Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Ed Basic MemberMon 19-Jan-09 01:28 AM
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#147. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 142
Mon 19-Jan-09 01:36 AM by Ed

US
          

Please find me a post where I said I was poor, or that Nikonians are focing out the poor? What I said was that there are indeed some people who find value in Nikonians but truly can't afford the fees. There's evidence of that in posts I've read all over this forum. I've even seen kind-hearted members offer to pony up membership fees for these guys.

Why is it a silly question? Well, maybe I didn't explain myself well. I visit a lot of Nikon sites, including this one. I've been on Nikon mailing lists since the dawn of the Internet, 1996 or so. Been on photo.net since 1998. Been on Nikonians since I discovered it in late 1999. So to me, to be asked why I visit this site, it's silly. It's about Nikons, so why won't I visit? I'll continue to visit until well-you-know-what... Like I said, I do find value in Nikonians, but is it worth $25 to me to visit just 4 or 5 subforums on this site? That's the question for most people, too I would guess.

My other quoted statements are not contradictory as you make them out to be. As a long-time member, I am indeed sorry to be leaving.

On the other hand, I am glad that my Nikonian article on Arca-swiss B1 ballhead has helped a few people. I get an average of 1 email a month since JRP put it up on the site 6 years ago. Some asking more questions and looking for advice, others simply saying "thank you" for helping them with their decisions. For that, I thank Nikonians for giving me the opportunity to help.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 04:32 AM
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#148. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 139


San Jose, US
          

Ed that was a very interesting reply. It is nice to talk to someone who contributed so much in the beginning. I did not expect you to answer that you could not afford it, and I agree that people become well off by not throwing their money away. I have gained my wealth by following that precept. But you did leave the door open a crack, so I have to ask again. You say for what you use it is not worth $25 a year. But by your own admission it has some value because even though you thought my question was silly, it really isn't because it gets to the heart of the matter of what is of value or what would you pay to keep doing waht you are doing? The fact that you go to other photo sites does not matter, because just like spending money for something you don't value, spending time for something you don't value is even more stupid. So please if you will, what would you be willing to pay for the services you use currently? This information could be very valuable to the owners and members who want to see Nikonians thrive. We certainly don't want to chase away people like yourself who have something valuable to contribute.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sat 17-Jan-09 10:22 PM
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#130. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 123


Toronto, CA
          

>The thing is, it's all the image hosting and advanced
>features that are driving up the costs... but wouldn't most
>people prefer to have just the forums and discussions and get
>rid of all the extra stuff taking up so much space and
>bandwidth, if it meant free or lower cost membership for
>everyone?

I'd bet you're right about costs, at least to some degree. But without the image hosting, photography trips, hosting of the discount online store, member support, etc., etc., I think it really wouldn't be Nikonians. It would be just another photography forum, indistinguishable from many others, relatively unmoderated like many others, and with little to attract the few thousand paying members who do in fact want the hosting and advanced services at the current membership prices.

Like almost everyone else who has posted in this thread, I have no real idea or knowledge about how many paid members use image hosting, how many paid members actually use advanced features or indeed any of the other advantages conferred by paid membership. It doesn't matter though, because I pay for the Nikonians membership which provides me with a level of access to the Nikon photography community online that suits my needs. I have not found another Nikon forum online which serves my needs anywhere near as thoroughly as Nikonians, so for me it makes perfect sense to purchase and annually renew my membership.

I went from Basic to Silver to Gold in the space of exactly 24 months, so I feel that I gave myself plenty of time to 'vet' a lot of different forums, examine and try out different features and functions and so on.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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chevysales Registered since 08th Nov 2008Sat 17-Jan-09 10:36 PM
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#131. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 18-Jan-09 07:43 PM by chevysales

US
          

23 years and i never paid for a web site unless it was a bands for front row tickets to the stones over the years.

they can have my $20.00 but the least i ask is they use a secured server as ie7 showed the page to not have a lock and gave me a warning it was being directed to a non-secure page.

i had a short back and forth email with site folks about this from the charging to the lack of lock for the page that takes credit card info... honestly i'll say it and i am new here but if they can't get the darn page to show security when members are trying to give them the money they now want then i wonder if i and others have done the correct thing?


i sure hope the $20 is well spent as i just don't want to through my money around...and honestly i can't believe the ads here with the traffic can't generate the revenue needed.

so i'll take the $ big discount on jason's book and hope it helps me wrap my self around NX2 a bit more since i made the switch.

jason you listening?

Happy Nikon convert from Canon...
D700
24-70 f2.8
70-200vr f2.8

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 18-Jan-09 06:28 AM
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#136. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 131


San Jose, US
          

I hadn't noticed the lack of a secure page for payments. If that is so, it is something that should be fixed right away. BTW you post had almost a page worth of black space before the end.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chevysales Registered since 08th Nov 2008Sun 18-Jan-09 08:00 PM
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#143. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 136
Sun 18-Jan-09 08:21 PM by chevysales

US
          

>I hadn't noticed the lack of a secure page for payments. If
>that is so, it is something that should be fixed right away.
>BTW you post had almost a page worth of black space before the
>end.


the blank space i have no idea where it came from... but went in and held the delete button for a minute and it seems to be gone.

i hope the same does NOT happen to my info as there was absolutely no sign of a secure page when i gave my info. i was told the lock picture was hosted on another server or something to that effect and not to worry about it as it was secure....

Happy Nikon convert from Canon...
D700
24-70 f2.8
70-200vr f2.8

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberSun 18-Jan-09 09:42 PM
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#145. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 136


San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

Bob,
The paying pages are secure. ONE image used in that page is not on the same server, causing IE7 not to identify it as secure. We are fixing it this week.

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sun 18-Jan-09 12:06 AM
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#132. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Alberta, CA
          

I've been wondering if it is a generational issue? JRP may be able to study the issue and decide or adjust strategy accordingly.

E.g. Is it the Google/uTube/Facebook generation of folks doing the objecting and it's us 'more seasoned' folks that have no problem recognizing Nikonians for the excellent value that it is!

Best regards, SteveK
My Nikonians gallery
'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sun 18-Jan-09 01:28 AM
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#133. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 132


Toronto, CA
          

>I've been wondering if it is a generational issue? JRP may
>be able to study the issue and decide or adjust strategy
>accordingly.
>
>E.g. Is it the Google/uTube/Facebook generation of folks
>doing the objecting and it's us 'more seasoned' folks that
>have no problem recognizing Nikonians for the excellent value
>that it is!

I think you've identified an important point. The majority of people who have developed expectations of free access to all sorts of information seem to be a generation younger than me. I know lots of people my age who occasionally take advantage of various kinds of free services and whatnot online, but they do it furtively rather than blatantly.

After I showed them this thread and your post, my 21 and 24 year old sons agreed with you and then proceeded to emphasize the point by insisting to me that I was speaking from a position of relative financial independence and that I was w-a-a-y too far from my own impecunious years and w-a-a-y too critical of utube/facebook/twitter business models to really 'get' it. I'd agree with both of them except for all the tech startups I've been involved with over the past 21 years, a number of which generated all sorts of salary, stock and option values for me without ever being profitable companies before being sold. I'm not special though - it's a common story told by thousands and thousands of other guys who've also had a great tech ride since 1989.

Still . . . you're right. While there's bound to be overlap in interests and demographics when we juxtapose generations and demographic groups in this situation, it doesn't alter the validity of your general conclusion. Wish I'd thought of it before.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Sun 18-Jan-09 02:19 AM
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#134. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 133


US
          

Hey, I'm 33, but I don't consider myself "seasoned aka OLD."

Personally, I think some people are just whiners....

1000's of dollars in photography equipment yet you can't afford $25....ARE YOU SERIOUS!


Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 19-Jan-09 03:10 PM
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#152. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 134


US
          

>1000's of dollars in photography equipment yet you can't
>afford $25....ARE YOU SERIOUS!
>
Hi Chad:

That is precisely what happened to me. So much money into equipment and I’m only paying $25/year in membership? To me, it was embarrassing. That is why I upped to Gold, this year and before all of this. However, so much money into equipment is what is preventing me from platinum, this year.

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberSun 18-Jan-09 09:40 PM
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#144. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Café Post..."
In response to Reply # 133
Sun 18-Jan-09 10:26 PM by jrp

San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

Not having a certain age is not a problem by itself. On the contrary.
Those are the years of fire.
Youth grants us the gifts of vigor, imagination and daring.

However, more often than not, there has been no time to study and understand political-social-economic systems in contemporary history, proving that there is never anything for free. Not even air, water or love, for they all imply obligations (Keeping it clean, nurture it, etc.)

The other evident missing part is the experience of having run a household, a business or working for one, understanding its complete works, which causes distorted perceptions of how things are made to happen.

Finally, when young, there is not yet the ability to comprehend and value the difference between commodities, goods, services and experiences, whether they enjoy them all or not. Nikonians is an experience.

Despite of all of these shortcomings, youth is precious for the reasons stated before and those virtues are not just welcomed but needed if a community such as ours is to grow strong.

Ignorance should never be confused with stupidity, just as passion is not to be taken as viciousness. But we must ask for civility.

You will have to excuse me for not making a list of the shortcomings of the mature groups, avoiding self-incrimination

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 12:33 AM
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#146. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Café Post..."
In response to Reply # 144


St. Paul, US
          

Really Dick?

After calling people parasites and bottom feeders, we are gonna pull the "venom" card?


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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muncie Registered since 14th Sep 2008Mon 19-Jan-09 05:21 AM
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#149. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I doubt anyone will see this post but what the heck.

Lately I've spent less and less time reading Nikonians (I've been an avid lurker for close to 7 years). I find this site slowing down, there are way to many subforums. The design is god aweful, the forum software is outdated and a drag to use. The search function is horrible. The list goes on.

I really wish the administrators would spend less time trying to make a buck and more time trying to improve this site. They already charge membership fees (and have a lot of members to boot) and they still litter this site with banners. You'd think if I was going to pay a membership fee I wouldn't have to look at all these adds. I get all these emails about features I couldn't care less about. Avatars,etc.

Why don't you spend your time developing an actually user friendly site. Something easy to search, etc.

Anyways just my 2 cents, I don't think I'll be renewing my membership. I find FredMiranda and NikonCafe to more than cover my needs now a days.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 07:02 AM
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#150. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 149


San Jose, US
          

David thanks for taking the time to coment on what you think are problems.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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torags Registered since 06th Jan 2007Mon 19-Jan-09 02:50 PM
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#151. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 150


US
          

Personally I don't mind banners or ads.

Hell I watch network TV & listen to free radio. I don't expect them to provide these services free and the cost to me is ears & eyes & I'm willing to pay these costs. Most people are willing.

I frankly don't get the adverse reaction to pages ads. some of which I have answered on some sites.

I have always felt I learn something from sales pitches (however little), so when smartshooter emails me a solicitation I open it and learn something. The problem is, I have NAS and sometimes I learn "I gotta have it"


Rags

  

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baddog Registered since 01st Aug 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 05:29 PM
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#153. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I surprised with all the NAS created by this website, that NIKON doesn't subsidize this.

Even though I'm really disappointed that Nikonians didn't honor their commitment for a lifelong membership for the original members, I've decided to renew my membership after having it lapse for a couple years. There has been a lot of good technical tips I've learned from posters on this site, that I haven't seen on others. I'm also looking forward to see what Epson's contributions to Nikonians evolves to be.

- JC

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 10:01 PM
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#155. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 153


San Jose, US
          

I too have often wondered why Nikon is not a sponser. Glad to hear you are reupping. I did not know original members were supposed to get lifetime memberships.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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baddog Registered since 01st Aug 2006Mon 19-Jan-09 10:49 PM
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#156. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 155


US
          

"I did not know original members were supposed to get lifetime memberships."

That's how I interpret Ed's comment in post #139 above.

"You see, I was one of the original Silver members, and it was of my own volition. Back when Bo and JRP offered it without expiry. Considering I only participated in the forums and never used any of the website's offerings, I felt a little betrayed when they instituted a new rule after a few months that Silver memberships now only last a year, thus ending my Silver membership."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 12:15 AM
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#157. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 156


St. Paul, US
          

Me too. I did get the email recently that now if I upgrade to Gold or Platinum, I get a blog and a Nikonian email address?!?

Seriously? Is that what people are looking for?


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 02:08 AM
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#158. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 157


Toronto, CA
          

>Me too. I did get the email recently that now if I upgrade to
>Gold or Platinum, I get a blog and a Nikonian email
>address?!?
>
>Seriously? Is that what people are looking for?

Who knows?!?

My local community center has a great weight room, basketball courts, volleyball courts, tennis courts (indoor & outdoor), a Pan-Am size pool, diving platforms, two hockey rinks, and member discounts in the restaurant. I have a so-called Neighbor membership which gets me a locker, clean towels, weight room, roundball courts and pool access. I don't use the courts and the pool is usually too crowded when I'm around. I really only need my membership for access to the weight room, lockers and towels for the showers. I know that other people hate the weight room and really, really like the pool. Some people (other Neighbor members actually) think that the weight room is a drain on the community center budget because far fewer people use the weight room than the other facilities. I'd prefer a lower priced weight-room-only membership, but that would mean the community center would have to schedule times for regular weight room member only access which keeps the kibitzers out during those times. It also means that a lower priced weight-room-only membership might, from a budget standpoint, be partially subsidized by Neighbor members and above. There just aren't enough people in the community to support that approach.

It seems that successfully running any sort of community organization means that you've really got to offer a range of carefully grouped services in order to get the attention of the greatest number of people (with all their varied interests) in the community, while at the same time creating a stable and sufficient revenue flow to balance your budget(s). Otherwise, you're not really running a community organization, but rather a private club which caters mainly to those comparatively few people in the community of like mind. There's no rule for organizations which suggests that every feature, function and service has to be of interest to each and every member - just the opposite actually.

The 'trick' is, I think, to determine the cost effectiveness of a large number of services to the community you're trying to attract. Keep (and offer) everything that is affordable, group the member services efficiently, shelve some things for a time when you can afford to offer them, and dump some things which are simply too esoteric to ever support. Re-evaluate every so often.

I think there are an enormous number of similarities between online organizations and traditional community centers. Interests, services, funding & membership, free access levels, volunteers, outreach, maintenance, planning, etc., etc., etc.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 02:24 AM
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#160. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 157


San Jose, US
          

So Bob instead of making a sarcastic comment about the attempt to add value to the Gold or Platinum by adding Blogs and an email address, what do you think would be something that they should be offering with that level of membership. By contributing ideas you might just help Nikonians be better.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 02:21 AM
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#159. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 156


San Jose, US
          

I somehow missed that when I first read his post. I am still waiting for his answer as to what he thinks the value of Nikonians is.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberSat 24-Jan-09 11:46 PM
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#201. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 156


San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

When the paid memberships were instituted, our way of saying thank to those previous donors was to give them a free of charge additional year of Silver. Reading this post, apparently this gesture was interpreted by some to be for a lifetime. Sorry for the confusion, but it was never said to be a lifetime membership. Thank you for making the comment, it helps to clarify it.

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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westside_guy Registered since 15th Dec 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 03:44 AM
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#161. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


UM
          

The folks who run nikonians.org have to do what they feel is best for their website. I've occasionally found this site useful, but while I'm willing to view ads as the "price of admission", I don't like Nikonians enough to pay for the privilege of continuing to participate - especially when I actively dislike this forum's software. Seriously, that's always been part of the thought process before I pop in here (or decide not to) - "do I want to put up with that gosh-awful forum system?" Up until today, I hadn't been back here for a few months - but with the changes I thought I'd jump in to give my $0.02 and say my goodbyes.

Anyway, that's just me. I do hope the people that choose to stay and pay will continue to find this place worthwhile. Goodbye!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 04:42 AM
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#163. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 161


San Jose, US
          

Puddin your opinion is respected, but could you be specific about what you don't like about the forum system?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Aulias Registered since 10th Feb 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 04:23 AM
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#162. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


Adelaide, AU
          

Here's my two cents, for what its worth!

In the past I've been a silver member, partially out of wanting to repay the group plus I felt ready to start posting pictures. But I didn't find the picture posting to be that useful, because:
-there weren't many responses to pictures I did post in the sports section, and these were mainly from moderators. After a couple of goes I soon didn't bother.
-the size restrictions at the time were quite limiting and frustrating. I think it was 800 pixels, 100 kbyte a picture? The amount of time I spent resizing saving, go to post, doup, still slightly to big, compress more, try again was quite annoying. Plus you end up with these small high compression postage stamp sized pics, eh!! e.g. I might have setup my gallery to show friends but the downsized pictures didn't have the impact, so it was easier to email people pictures, even at 1600x1200 ~ 300-400 kybyte per picture, 10Mb email limit, that's plenty of pictures you can send and the onscreen impact is much greater.

So, when the silver membership expired I didn't renew it.

The only thing I come to Nikonians now is for the forum. Even then I just read a few sections, basically D700 dreaming and to see if there's much being said about new lenses. If I'm now going to have to pay to just read the forums, then sorry, but the value just isn't there for me and that will be the end of my participation in Nikonians. $25US ($40 Australian) isn't a small sum of money for something that is more of a luxury than a necessity to me.

And to those saying "if you can afford the gear you can afford $25 a year", well, when I bought my Nikon gear I was childless, mortgageless and my partner worked full time. I now have one kid with a second one planned, a big mortgage (with a house to upgrade and fill with furniture). My partner only works part time now while she looks after the baby some days. Throw in a world financial crisis with lots of job uncertainty and I've never been so cautious with my money in my life.

All I can suggest is you consider a lower level membership, one that is just forum access only with no picture posting rights? I'd think one hundred text only forum reading members might use as much bandwidth as one picture and gallery using silver and higher member, so perhaps there's scope to tweak the user pays balance there accordingly?

Or assign free acounts an annual bandwidth quota and once you hit it then you are blocked out until it gets reset or you pay to go silver? A way to manage it and make people aware how much data they are using?

To be honest though, I still doubt I'd pay to join. Its money that could go towards higher priorities, and there are other free options out there too. I'd suspect this is the situation for many others too.

Good luck whichever way you end up going.

Cheers,
Paul

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 04:52 AM
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#164. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 162
Tue 20-Jan-09 04:58 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Paul thanks for your detailed reply and suggestions. I see you did not know that the size restriction was for the forums only, and the Gallery it is 10MB per file or 1800x1800 pixels. the 150kb limit in the forums is that thread could have a lot of images and if you didn't limit size it would bring the threads to a crawl. I put big images in my gallery, send my freinds the gallery link and then I put the medium sized image image generated automatically by the gallery in the forum with a click link to the larger one in the gallery. A lower cost limited membership is a good suggestion.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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aldewitt Registered since 16th May 2008Tue 20-Jan-09 12:32 PM
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#167. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 162


Jefferson City, US
          

Paul

An excellent discourse. I understand about how marriage and children change your financial priorities. I had to completely abandon photography while my kids were growing up (in favor of a cheap point and shoot camera) and got back in to digital when they were in college and the financial exsanguination had slowed (it never stops).

I salute you for putting your kids first. We'll miss you around here. But it sure seems like a principled decision.

A. L. DeWitt
Jefferson City, MO

Cameras allow us to share the beauty in God's creation with others.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 03:17 PM
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#168. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 167


St. Paul, US
          

<<So Bob instead of making a sarcastic comment about the attempt to add value to the Gold or Platinum by adding Blogs and an email address, what do you think would be something that they should be offering with that level of membership. By contributing ideas you might just help Nikonians be better.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery>>

Didn't realize that my comments were sarcastic. Thanks for your opinion. I seriously wanted to know that people saw value in an email address, when there are a dozen free email address providers out in the world right now. It's great that Nikonians is trying to offer extra benefits to try and justify the mandatory fees, but I guess I am not seeing the value in offering things that are free all over the internet anyway.

If you are asking for ideas on what I would like to see, I guess you have been ignoring what I have been saying. I have already contributed ideas, but I will do it again, since you asked.

I think the value of the site, for the most part, is the forum. The traffic and discourse amongst many of the members is the most important thing here, and to make it as accessible to as many people as possible, I think it is a mistake to charge for basic forum services. Traffic drives ad prices and value, and by charging a fee they are going in the opposite direction.

The buy sell section is a value, and if you sell on ebay, that can add up. I think you could charge $10 or $15 annually for people that want to sell. Blogs are of value to some. Charge 50 or 99 cents a piece, like a music download. It's easy to do.

I wouldn't mind more ads if it defrays the cost. Have paying members be ad free, like on Flickr, while base level forum users see the ads.

Storage is valuable for some, but not for many. Charge basic storage separately.

Obviously, the theme here is update the technology of the site and charge for the specific features people actually want to use, rather than just a blanket fee for services that many don't use. Why would anyone pay for things they don't use? If done this way, they keep the traffic up with the base forum users, and get paid for the technology they have implemented. If nobody pays for the features, than they are clearly features people don't want.

I really can't imagine a new D40 user paying $25 a year just to use the forums after a 25 day trial period. Getting intro level users involved, getting them afflicted with NAS is the key to long term membership here. Nailing them at the start is a long shot.

Those are my ideas, for that last time. Opinions on tone cheerfully ignored.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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nidza Registered since 06th Nov 2008Tue 20-Jan-09 03:34 PM
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#169. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 168


CS
          

It was nice helping people and improving the quality of the forum. See you all again if it ever becomes free.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Tue 20-Jan-09 04:07 PM
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#170. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 168


Paignton, GB
          

>If nobody pays for the features, than they are clearly
>features people don't want.

I think part of Bob's request was that you could suggest some features that Gold and Platinum members might value, rather than simply pointing out the problems you see with what is currently (or soon to be) offered. I don't see any radical ideas in your posts.

By the way, it makes the thread easier for everyone to follow if you hit "reply" on the post to which you are responding, rather than on the last post in the thread. Thanks!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Check out the Nikonians Team pages

  

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Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 04:36 PM
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#171. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 170


St. Paul, US
          

My concern isn't so much with Gold and Platinum members and what they might value. That's for them to decide. They sent an email to me as a silver member using blogs and an email address as the lure to upgrade. That is why I am commenting on it. As a Silver member, my biggest concern, as said over and over and over again, is the health of the forums. And my solution is to charge for the features people want individually rather than force them to pay for features they wont use.

I disagree completely with your second point. I never see responses buried in the middle of a string of 165 posts as easily as picking up where I left off, which is the way almost every forums works out there in conjunction with a quote feature. Part of the quirks that make this forum difficult to navigate, as mentioned by others above.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Tue 20-Jan-09 05:55 PM
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#174. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 171


Paignton, GB
          

>I disagree completely with your second point.

It's fine to disagree, but bear in mind that just about everyone else here does it the other way. We all have to make the best of the forum software; it takes repeated scrolling to relate posts like yours to the sub-thread they reference. Assuming that you want as many people as possible to read your posts, I'm just suggesting that you're going about it the wrong way

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Check out the Nikonians Team pages

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 05:14 PM
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#172. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 168


US
          

>Those are my ideas, for that last time. Opinions on tone
>cheerfully ignored.

Dear Mr. "Max Power"...

Now, that you've flexed your "Max Power" muscle for presumably the last time, and seemingly promised to ignore others with "opinions on tone," could it be that I, and others have finally and at long last heard the last of you? You've MORE than made your point, so hopefully you'll now feel comfortable to simply say, farewell, and just disappear. Many thanks for your "opinions," so to speak, and may you bring as much joy, cheer and inspiration to other boards as you have here.

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 05:56 PM
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#175. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 172


San Jose, US
          

Dick Bob (Max Power} is a paying member and certainly has the right to express his opinions. Whether we agree with what people have to say or not, it is important to listen to what they have to say because within the posts that are critical of Nikonians are the seeds of improvement. My point to Bob was that he could be of more value by suggesting ways to improve the value of all levels rather than just making "sarcastic" comments. Perhaps Bob does not see his comments as sarcastic, but he did respond with his thoughts on the matter in a clear way, and I thank him for that. As many others have said, it is a matter of perceived value. We need to understand what that "value" is to those who don't perceive membership the way we do. If we shut down others opinions, we will never learn how to make Nikonians better.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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The Long Ranger Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Aug 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 07:42 PM
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#179. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 175


US
          

Hi Bob...

I'm sorry and while I totally agree with your wish to obtain insights and positive input, there comes a point (to me, anyway) where enough is enough, and with regard to the ever so "powerful," Max Power, I just simply feel that in this instance...enough is most definitely enough. His points have been well taken...no offense has been intended...but I just feel the time has come to move on...and so it may be with this original post and the ensuing threads, as well. We just can't beat this horse to death any more than it already has been. I hope I can request the Moderator to just remove the whole thing.

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 09:09 PM
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#180. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 179


San Jose, US
          

Dick while you may think we are beating this horse to death, it is providing good insights that may be valuable to management. Once the deed is done and the grace period is over, then this thread should be closed, but I for one think there is still information to be mined. Just be a bit more patient, as the intent is to improve Nikonians for members, and you can't do that without hearing from the other side no matter how painful you may think it is. While this thread is certainly very long, it still contains a wealth if information that would not have been gained if you had not posted the original post. That said if you feel that you have reached your limit, it is OK to not participate in the discussion further if you don't want to. While early parts of the thread were emotional, I think people have been giving better insight near the end. After all this is an emotional subject for some. I am just trying to be neutral in the hope that I may gleen something useful out of this.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 05:45 PM
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#173. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 168


San Jose, US
          

Bob thank you for that well thought out response. You do have some good ideas.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 06:30 PM
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#176. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 173
Tue 20-Jan-09 06:35 PM by chadsphoto

US
          

Well, in many ways, I agree with MAX POWER.

-I don't use the hosting features or post pictures in threads (too limiting)
-I will never use the E-mail or the Blogs
-I never read the articles/newsletters

I'm sure there are more features but I probably wouldn't use them. Really, I'm here for the forums. No other site has this much experience IMO. IMO they're worth paying $25. Nikonians has drastically improved my photography. I've also love the Buy/Sell section, also worth the $25. Eventually, I want to attend a workshop so that's another feature I like.

The point about a D40 user can be two sided. Some people will buy a D40 (or any other camera) and use it as a P&S. They don't have the aspirations to spend more money like us. Too them spending money on a lens that cost more than the camera is insane.

Then there are those who start out, get more experienced, and want more (NAS). Personally, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting to be a Nikonian. Instead I think people will have to come here and evaluate how much value this website will be to them. Some, like me, will look at the forums and find value. Some, of course, will not.

I have referred several of my friends here. Some have become members and some have not. Some just don't like to blog.




Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Tue 20-Jan-09 06:46 PM
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#178. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 176


US
          

I forget to mention that I like the forum software...I will say that in the beginning I always posted at the end but now I post directly to whoever I need to respond to.

To navigate, you have to use the hyperlinks that are sent to you via E-mail.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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markscamera Registered since 06th Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 09:17 PM
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#181. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 178


Morristown, US
          

Think of it like this, it's just 7 cents a day to belong to the best Nikon forum on the internet. I'll be staying, it's the best source of information anywhere.

Mark Stephan
USN, retired ...GO Navy!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 20-Jan-09 09:57 PM
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#182. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 181


San Jose, US
          

Mark spoken like a true veteran. We know a good thing when we see it.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Wed 21-Jan-09 06:54 AM
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#187. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 181
Wed 21-Jan-09 06:56 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

Couldn't say it any better! How are you feeling by the way?

Oh yea GO NAVY hey thats my line but I would always share it with a shipmate. From a Proud Navy Corpsman!

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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ajdooley Silver Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006Sun 25-Jan-09 12:23 AM
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#204. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 187


Waterloo, US
          

Jim -- You've made a ton of good points in this thread -- shipmate. I'm a retired sailor too -- started as a photomate with RA-5C Vigilantes; changed to JO to keep from crawling around under Tomcats and then got a commission. Thanks for your service and all the "square" needles in the shot lines! Alan in Waterloo, IL

(I'll never forget the shot line sign on USS Blueridge: "E1-6 roll up left sleeve; Chiefs roll up right sleeve; officers drop trousers.")

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Mon 26-Jan-09 04:42 AM
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#206. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 204
Mon 26-Jan-09 04:42 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

First thank you for the support and the smile from this!

"Thanks for your service and all the "square" needles in the shot lines!"

Standing by to Assist Shipmate and thank you for your service! Doc

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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jimtan Basic MemberWed 21-Jan-09 06:44 AM
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#183. "Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Adios

$25 is not much. But, I can't justify it on the basis of the minute amount of text that I post.

Take care!

Best Regards

Jim

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 21-Jan-09 06:50 AM
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#184. "RE: Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 183


San Jose, US
          

Good luck, hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere, if not check back and see if things have changed..

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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harryg01 Registered since 07th Nov 2005Thu 22-Jan-09 09:23 PM
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#189. "RE: Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 184


Gateshead, GB
          

Bob
I know this is not related to the last post however after reading all of the content of the post I find it remarkable that had I not looked into the D700 forums I would have missed this very important change to Niikonians.

As you will know I am not a paying member, I only use the D300 forum and very little else here at Niknions.
At no time have I been informed of the changes what are going to happen in the future.

Does this mean that I am going to be excluded from these forums , it seems that there has been no blanket staement regarding these changes or if there has then for some reason I have been omited.

I have directed this post at you as you seem to be responding to the aftermath of the forthcoming decisions.

Harry

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Thu 22-Jan-09 10:45 PM
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#190. "RE: Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 189


US
          

Harry,

You should have received several notices....

Make sure your E-mail is current and check your junk folders.

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 23-Jan-09 01:16 AM
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#191. "RE: Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 189


San Jose, US
          

Harry thre have been many emails to basic members on this at the top of the Nikonians site there is a link to a message from JRP to all members about the changes. Basically if you are a Basic member, you must upgrade to a Silver membership before the end of the month or be locked out from access and posting once your 25 day trial period was up. They are offering a one time discount so it would cost you $20 for one year. Go read the post, and if you have further questions we can help you here or you can just post an email directly to JRP.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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barrycanada Registered since 30th Nov 2005Fri 23-Jan-09 01:28 PM
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#192. "RE: Adios Amigo"
In response to Reply # 191
Fri 23-Jan-09 01:39 PM by barrycanada

Windsor, CA
          

I'm leaving......so are many other Basic (non paying) members. That certainly doesn't mean that this spells 'The End' for Nikonians.

Contrary, the current paying members and Nikonians that upgrade (pay) will continue to make Nikonians the success and great site that it always has been, is and will be.

I simply enjoy the Forums almost exclusively. I honestly don't have time for or interest in much else.

I don't use or enjoy the high cost items that some Nikonians are enjoying.

I'm older (almost 60) and really like to get out there and shoot, shoot, shoot. Father time is ticking. I find spending LOTS of whatever lifetime I have left (lol) at the computer less than enjoyable.

Sometimes, I wonder how members that post on anything and everything with thousands of posts have time to actually do much photographing?

I'm not generally considered a selfish person or one who takes advantage of free services.

But, I'm leaving only because my initial attraction to Nikonians about 5 years ago and my current use and attraction remains the same.

I will miss Nikonians......a lot. But, not enough to subsidize the members who actually use the expensive commodities offered here.

Nikonians has evolved into an expensive non-for-profit business. Seems thats what SOME people want and require in this 'techno' age.

I simply have absolutely no use for this stuff.

I will always respect this 'Community', its terrific, dedicated,best intentioned founders, the moderators, members and all.

Nikonians will be a MUCH smaller community soon. But, really, your most dedicated users will have no problem becoming Silver Members or above.

My dad used to say, "Good things come in small packages."

Perhaps, with all of the expensive additional services, Nikonins has tried to become too much to too FEW members.

It will be a GREAT smaller site. Don't despair.......Nikonians is here to stay !!!

Now, quit worrying and get out there and shoot......time waits for no one......not even Nikonians !!!

Wishing you all continued success.

Barry G.



  

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stev32k Registered since 27th Dec 2003Fri 23-Jan-09 04:38 PM
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#193. "Guess I'll be leaving also"
In response to Reply # 192


Mobile, US
          

I've been coming to the site for several years and had a silver membership at one point. I didn't renew because I felt I did not get enough use to justify $25. I rarely post and only visit the site once or twice a month on average so I won't be missed.

I wish Nikonians good luck and hope the site is able to stay on-line. It does seem kind of strange to me that non-paying members will be completely blocked. That will certainly reduce site traffic and result in even lower advertising revenue. But that is a business decision and I hope it is the right one.

  

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pintofguinness Registered since 13th Jul 2007Fri 23-Jan-09 08:18 PM
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#194. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I wasn't going to reply to this rather lengthy discussion but decided to post my thoughts.

I have been a member here for awhile and even though I have not posted much, I have been reading and learning. Last year I posted about my health issues and was brought to tears with the warm emails and PMs wishing me well. I have even got a few emails lately from members wondering how I am doing. That kind of warmth is what I love about Nikonians.

I can ask questions here and not have to worry about responses that are mean, nasty and make me feel like an idiot. I feel part of a community that I can learn from and maybe some day help someone else the way I have been helped. The critiques and comments about posted photographs are also critiques meant to help instead of comments like "I could have taken that with a point and shoot."

I am a gold member (started out as basic) and plan to upgrade to platinum to show my support and gratitude to this wonderful community. Not everyone feels that way and that's okay. That's what makes this world what it is. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and should have the right to express them without being ridiculed. But at the same time, respecting the other person.

-pint (Denise)

BTW, my treatments went well. All is okay on that front. I have had 2 surgeries since July with one more to go. I had a right total knee replacement in September which was not fun at all, laying me up for several months. I am going to have the left total knee replacement the end of March. Hopefully by this fall, I will be recovered, mobile again and can get out to really take some photographs. (With what they cost, my new titanium (I think) knees better keep up with my plans)

http://denisemcnickle.com

Play Like A Champion Today
"Remember the qualities that form the foundation of
success: discipline, self-confidence, determination and perserverance"
Ara Parseghian

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 23-Jan-09 09:44 PM
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#195. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 194


San Jose, US
          

Denise it is people like you that make Nikonians such a great site. Glad to hear your health is better. I too find this site filled with warm and caring people and these people have a high level of knowledge and experience. It is more of a community than just a web site. Thanks for your continued support.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005Fri 23-Jan-09 10:13 PM
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#196. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 195


Apollo, US
          

In all of the posting here there is only one issue that has stayed with me since I find it bothersome. Before I mention it. let me say that I am a silver member, intend to remain a silver member if not upgrade so my choice is already made.
Reference has been made to a broken promise that was made to what are referred to as Charter members. I find this troublesome and would like an explanation of the situation. Apparently, if my understanding is correct, lifetime memberships were promised in some form to initial members and that promise was not kept. Can anyone further enlighten me on this issue? If the promise was made, it needs to be kept. We have nothing if not our word.

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 23-Jan-09 10:39 PM
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#197. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 196


Toronto, CA
          


>Apparently, if my understanding is correct, lifetime
>memberships were promised in some form to initial members and
>that promise was not kept. Can anyone further enlighten me on
>this issue? If the promise was made, it needs to be kept. We
>have nothing if not our word.

A bad promise - one that was made with good intentions but insufficient information or with misguided zeal - sometimes can't be kept. The smart thing to do in some situations I think, is for a proprietor to keep a list of disappointed-but-still-loyal customers and find a way to privately spiff 'em when it's affordable for him to do so.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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chadsphoto Registered since 03rd Oct 2007Fri 23-Jan-09 10:43 PM
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#198. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 197


US
          

I agree with Howard....

Well stated....

Chad
A Proud American Nikonian
"Semper Fi"

  

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rhom Registered since 06th Aug 2008Sat 24-Jan-09 05:38 PM
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#199. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 198


Sacramento, US
          

Well, I'm certainly not a charter member, but I just paid my dues to be a new Nikonian.

I joined as a (free) basic member few months ago because I wanted to learn more about how you guys and gals liked your D700s. I was floored by the quality of the files that this camera produces and read virtually all of the online and magazine D700 reviews. However, reviews are not the same as comments and insights from D700 owners that use their cameras on a regular basis. You guys will expose all of the warts very quickly and likewise will sing of unheralded virtues from owners' perspectives (reviewers are not necessarily Photographers).

What I have learned from you over the months was worth many times a Nikonian membership. I purchased a D700 as a result. I also have grown attached to you as a community, I enjoy reading what you have to say and your comments to notes that I have written. By trade, I am a university professor, another way of saying life-long student, and I am looking forward to learning much more as a Nikonian.

Best $25 that I have spent in a long time!

Best to All,

Rick

Nikon user for 40 years.
F-Ftn, F3, F4S, F90, F100, D5100, D700

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sat 24-Jan-09 06:46 PM
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#200. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 199


San Jose, US
          

Rick thanks for becoming a supporting member. I am glad to hear you find Nikonians of value like the rest of us. I love your Avatar.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Mon 26-Jan-09 04:39 AM
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#205. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 199


Memphis, US
          

Rick thank you for the support we appreciate it!

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter MemberSun 25-Jan-09 12:06 AM
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#203. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 197
Mon 26-Jan-09 09:36 AM by jrp

San Pedro Garza García, MX
          

Howard,
Thank you for your good intentions, but you are assuming it was promised. It was not.

This is nearly impossible to read now. Too long. It is now locked.

Have a great time
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
Join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members that help this happen; upgrade. Join your personal web site to the Nikonians WebRing
Make sure you check our workshops at The Nikonians Academy

  

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Cargo Registered since 21st Jan 2009Mon 26-Jan-09 03:29 PM
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#209. "RE: A Worrisome Nikon Cafe' Post..."
In response to Reply # 203


GB
          

Hi. This is my first post here - in fact I only registered (basic) a few days ago. So maybe I can contribute the view from this lowly perspective.
I had not visited the site before, however I frequently read and contribute (more questions than answers I'm afraid) to other general photographic forums, amongst them photo.net, LL, DPR - plus some of the specialised forums such as panoguide. It came as a BIG surprise to se that my free membership here was time-limited.

I immediately assumed that I'd hang around for a couple of weeks and then kiss Nikonians goodbye. I mean, the site is dedicated to Nikon users, obviously, however all the other sites are subdivided into user preference groups, as well as forums that bracket us all - software for example. So what's the USP here? maybe I'll discover it in the next couple of weeks and end up subscribing: but I doubt it. Why? The concept of elasticity of demand come into play here. The site is essentially duplicated by subscription-free alternatives. Unlike someone who has an existing emotional attachment to the site a new arrival is highly unlikely to pay for something that's so easily substituted. There's no shortage of helpful and informed comment on the sites I've mentioned.

On the site-financing strategies discussed above - and I haven't read the whole thread - my comment would be "who gives a d@mn how Nikonians is financed". It's really of no interest to me any more than the business models used by any other site with which I have no personal financial interest. Clearly there are viable methods of generating revenue with which other sites work, and they don't necessarily entail hideously obtrusive advertising mechanisms. Less obtrusive mechanisms I can live with, as I suspect can most other users of this kind of forum.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the "no access without subscription" model dooms the site to a lingering death. It will only work if you maintain site traffic (and someone previously pointed out that the lifeblood of sites like this are the contributions made freely by its posters) by free basic-access users, and then have value-added subscriber levels that are attractive enough to encourage paid upgrades. There are many precedents for this approach.

On the demographic front, I too am an over-60 contributor. I am currently a full-time carer without any income (near-zero interest rates) so I'd prefer not to spend money on anything that can be substituted so easily.

  

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