Hi to all fellow and beloved Nikonians...

To me, this website and everything it represents means all the world. So, it was with great concern I read a post at the Nikon Cafe' which more than troubling me, has made me sick. I'll share it with you now...

End for Nikonians? Good for Nikoncafe?

Nikonians is effectively ending it's free membership, starting jan 12th limiting free membership to 25 days, then making people pay $25/year for membership.

They claim right now that they have about 9,000 paying members, and that only covers 13% of their costs (which means they are burning around 2 million dollars a year!).

I would expect the vast majority of the non-paying members (of which there are 143,000) to leave Nikonians, which will almost certainly make Nikonians less attractive, and should be a boost for other great sites like NikonCafe.

I've posted a blog entry on my site here with more details:

http://www.dentonimages.com/page.php...ws011009090724

So, is this a good move by Nikonians? or is this the end for them?
__________________
Steve Denton
http://www.dentonimages.com

And, so, I'm wondering... Is this the end? God forbid it is as I'd be MORE than willing to send in an additional amount if it meant we could keep things going just as I'd hope many of you would, too. There's no other site I know of that brings anywhere near as much to us...the lovers and users of Nikon equipment than the Nikonians does, and if necessary, I think we all need to be very concerned.

I guess we'll just have to see what's happening and then proceed from there as we might, can and should. Please forgive my posting this here as I just wanted it to be seen by many along with the understanding it could well be moved, deleted, or whatever by the moderators. In the meantime, best wishes to all, and especially to the two founders who've made all this possible.

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

Thats my post.

I love this site and truely want it to succeed.

Many Nikonians, myself included, frequent multiple forums. You'll find similar posts on all the different sites by a lot of different people.

However I can't help but believe this is a very bad move - Nikonians is what it is because of it's broad membership, and I believe this move goes against that and will most likely cost Nikonians "market share" and it's leadership position for Nikon shooters. I hope I'm wrong.

Personally I haven't decided whether I'm going to pay or leave yet - my gut reaction is to wait until after the 26th and see how many people are left and then make a decision.

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

I fail to understand how so many people can take advantage of, and loudly proclaim the great value of, all of the free access that has traditionally been available on Nikonians, and then profess shock at the suggestion that because it costs a lot of money to maintain and grow Nikonians that a paltry $25 annual membership is now in order.

So you're suggesting that the reaction of many Nikonians will be to simply leave and go elsewhere to get free stuff from another site rather than pay $25 per year for what they've already stated is a huge volume of great advice, guidance, discussion and debate at Nikonians?

For pete's sake, $25 a year isn't a hardship! You can find $25 in loose change in your sofa cushions.

What does anybody think it costs to maintain and upgrade servers and devote many dozens of hours of hard work each week to maintain and upgrade software, moderate the forums, look for new products for the online store, etc., etc., etc.? Does everybody think it all comes free and happens like magic? Do people think that Nikonians is some sort of sideline hobby site set up and maintained by some 20 year old living in his mother's basement?

I think posts like yours worry me more than anything else. In one long breath you tout the great value you've received freely from Nikonians, but then immediately devalue it all by essentially stating that you're going to wait to see what other people do before shelling out a lousy twenty five bucks. In other words, you're suggesting that, in fact, all of the value in Nikonians is only useful to you if it's freely available. I think that's a hypocritical attitude.

OTOH, if you're really just trying to suggest that Nikonians should work harder to find alternative sources of revenue (ads, ads, ads in all the forums) then you should say so.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard,

I've been running web sites large and small for the last 13 years, I think I've got a pretty good handle on costs and revenue potential, thank you.

This move represents a fundamental change in the business model for this site, going from a community site to what many have described as a "private club" in other threads, and thats going to have a serious effect on it's appeal and how Nikonians fits into the world around it.

I agree $25 isn't a lot (but if you look in other forums here, others disagree), but if every site started charging $25 I'd be broke - what would happen if google, or community sites like facebook, twitter, the other dozen or so forums I frequent all started charging? It's not a good way to build your site, IMHO, and I believe it will have a very negative impact on this site moving forward. You may disagree.

FYI, I personally don't use the hosting here, I've watched just half of one podcast, I don't use the buy/sell forums etc, I'm here just for the forums, for the people here. And if you look at my posts, I've asked very, very few questions since I've been here, but offered answers on hundreds, trying to help other people. Should I now pay for that privilege? If I pay, it's because I'm part of the community and want it to succeed. If my time, advice and help is not needed...

There are a lot of heated opinions on this topic.

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

Steve:

The change sure seems to be a fundamental one in the Nikonians business model. I agree with you. OTOH, your comments about Google (it certainly charges AdWords customers serious money and pays AdSense customers precious little while reaping huge profits), FaceBook (a money loser), Twitter (a huge money loser) and most other forums are meaningless. By all means leave Nikonians (or stay) as you see fit, but don't attempt to analyze its business model without having real facts at hand.

Your comments about your participation in forums are perfectly accurate no doubt, but seem singularly inward looking. Thousands of Nikonians, myself included, participate in forums, expecting only the satisfaction to be derived from such participation without assigning value before or after the fact. That you and so many others are suddenly assigning great value to their posting contributions is both funny IMO and a classic unconscious ploy to try and keep things just the way they are.

According to over sixty posts I've read on this issue here, there seem to be dozens and dozens of angry Nikonians who all claim to have, like you, asked very few questions while offering hundreds of answers. The implication is that people only glean information for themselves by asking questions, but that is clearly a red herring. In fact, there isn't a single active Nikonian anywhere who hasn't taken advantage of the valuable information in these forums simply by reading it.

I've made several public suggestions about financially re-organizing Nikonians, developing a fully ad-driven revenue business, lowering membership prices to make the cost of entry more affordable (or at least less notable) for a much larger number of people. Unfortunately, it seems that 99% of all the people posting on this issue only want to gripe, display their anger, tout the immense value of their posts in the forums over the years, and babble lots of other self-centered nonsense. Somebody, please, push an agenda for a better or more appropriate business model.

Just spare me and a few others I know all this pusillanimous griping over twenty five bucks a year. We lose more change in the sofa cushions for pete's sake. It's 2009 - bandwidth, servers, and hard labor costs more money than ever.

Besides all that, has it ever occurred to you or anyone else in all the threads on this topic that maybe the days of all that free stuff online is endangered? Maybe, just maybe, ad-driven business models die a quick death in the face of ever-decreasing ad revenues as millions more sites vie for a pool of ad dollars increasing at only a tiny fraction of the rate of new sites?

If in fact the Nikonians founders have bounced to an extreme that is untenable in the face of economic downturn and other available online forums, while at the same time having to grapple with ever increasing bandwidth costs as more and more 'Nikonians' hit the site to get the information they need, then maybe Nikonians.com has simply hit some critical mass beyond which this sort of business model simply can't function (not-for-profit or whatever). In that case, this latest financial decision and restructuring will no doubt fail.

The smart money creates petitions and lobbies designed to influence the site owners to moderate their decisions. The fools, the rash and the inconsiderate simply get angry at the decision and stomp off to go play in a different sandbox. That's pathetic and an inappropriate exclamation point at the end of all of the oh-so-valuable posts they claim to have contributed.

Beyond anything else, I'm disgusted by and disappointed in the enormous number of angry, self-centered posts on this issue. I truly expected a vastly more constructive and persuasive reaction.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard,

I am going to stick my neck out here. I do not think Steve has any concept of what it takes to run a data center and the pipes usually on a sharp shins ring that it takes for large data centers. My example below is for a single OC12 not on a ring and includes no back up should you loose your single OC12.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

I might surprise you there, I've project managed and deployed websites for some very, very large companies.

Your numbers below come to about $220k per year for hosting and equipment, that sounds about right - maybe a little high (I'd be surprised if they get 25% at peak times, that 150k number is members that have ever registered in the past 8 years, there is no way to delete your registration).

The general rule of thumb for forums, is that if 10% pay 10 dollars you are in the black, so that would be $150k/year, which is close enough to your numbers.

This site is claiming about $2m in expenses a year according to JRP's post...

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

>I might surprise you there, I've project managed and deployed
>websites for some very, very large companies.
>
>Your numbers below come to about $220k per year for hosting
>and equipment, that sounds about right - maybe a little high
>(I'd be surprised if they get 25% at peak times, that 150k
>number is members that have ever registered in the past 8
>years, there is no way to delete your registration).
>
>The general rule of thumb for forums, is that if 10% pay 10
>dollars you are in the black, so that would be $150k/year,
>which is close enough to your numbers.
>
>This site is claiming about $2m in expenses a year according
>to JRP's post...

Steve,

My apologies.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Howard,
>
>I've been running web sites large and small for the last 13
>years, I think I've got a pretty good handle on costs and
>revenue potential, thank you.
>

Servers are cheep. "BUT"
Lets assume that 25% of the membership are streaming data at peak times with an average 1MB connection so using a round figure of 25% of 150K users that is 37.5 GB of bandwidth used at any given time. A T3 is 44.1 MB Last time I checked here it was $900.00 a month. That is 850 T3's. Wow.

So I think we can safely assume that just our little community requires probably an OC12 just to handle the load. Now an OC3 is 3 T3's and an OC12 is 4 OC3's for a total of 12 T3's. This assumption is probably fairly close as to our bandwidth requirements. That is roughly 10K per month for a single OC12.

So 120K a year just to cover the pipe so we can all be Nikonians. I for one don't want advertising cluttering up our forums like so many other sites have.

So how many members does it take just to cover the "PIPE" assuming an OC12 at 10K a month. The answer is 4800. Now how much does the equipment cost to convert that OC12 to IP well a Flash Wave 4500 with the appropriate cards I could get an exact figure but roughly 100K so that is another say 4800 members.

Then there is the cost of space etc., etc., etc The list is just about endless.

P.S. An OC12 might be a little small!!!!!

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Your numbers are scary for anyone who is watching their former hobby site suddenly gain serious traction. The wrenching debate in such situations is, "How will I ever pay for all this?" As for Nikonians.com, the owners certainly have to deal with big costs in the areas you've mentioned, and which may significantly outpace monthly site revenue. Whatever the owners' margins happen to be, it's their business to lose, so they've got to be realistic about costs, site scaling and a few other crucial items which revolve around hanging on to, growing and managing the active membership.

Ever-expanding free access = no money = no web site. Again, your cost estimates inject a sobering note.

I think that ad dollars available to sites in the rapidly expanding top 25% of enthusiast web sites and portals have leveled off and are actually decreasing in many categories. Publicly available news reports available online say so. Economic downturns and recessions certainly don't help the situation. But it seems that the number of web sites clamoring for ad dollars is increasing at a ridiculous rate, while the amount of available ad dollars increases only incrementally.

If in the end I'm participating in a fully restructured Nikonians as a paid member with 15,000 (or 5,000, or 50,000) other paid members, so be it (as long as I'm contributing and participating effectively and enjoyably along with the other members). I don't think that's a bad future.

The whole idea that Nikonians would somehow be less valid or worthwhile if it shrunk to 50,000 paid members, flies in the face of the fact that when Nikonians actually was that size a few years ago, everyone participating in the site in those days were thoroughly enjoying themselves. Big registration numbers are meaningless if they've grown to constitute a huge money pit.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Michael,again very interesting and well above my knowledge base. I am a member of a non-profit,non-pay site that has very srtrict posting rules. Now I better understand why.

Not a problem, just post best photos and answer the questions only if you have an answer. Had to submit a brief resume' and samples of photos before being invited to join.

I am probably one of the bigger offenders here in terms of posting photos that are not all that good and sometimes post for humour and not photogaphy. I guess I had better use more self-control and pay for the upgrade.
Thanks,
Tom

T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

Have folks visited some of the other Nikon sites? In my opinion, they are not quite up to par with this site.

The advice you can get here will save you ton's of dollars if you use it correctly.

Thank you Ken for the very kind words! I also appreciate your support.

Kind Regards Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org



I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

Just FYI - I count 14 threads on this very topic here on Nikonians in this forum:

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=134

Steve Denton

Website: http://www.dentonimages.com
Rate Photo Stuff | DSLR Database | Travel Blog

Hmmmmm....this is the first I have heard of it. I am a paying member, so I might remain a paying member, but I am troubled that 87% of the clientele may leave. Communities thrive on inclusiveness, not membership fees, and I have yet to see a very successful one that make fees mandatory. To be candid, internet forums just don't work that way.

If I paid $25 into every forum I contribute too over the spectrum of my hobbies, it would be over $1000 a year> I don't post images on FM because I don't want to pay multiple times for the same thing. It's a waste.

Agitator, don't take this personally, but you really seem to be looking at this from what works for you, and clearly, that won't work for everybody. It isn't just the $25, but how many new member do you think this place would get if all new members had to pay first. The place would go extinct in less that 2 years, and that would be a shame.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

Well for me, I used the buy & sell once. I took a silver to gain access.

I felt it was the largest Nikon community available to resell a 200/400. It did the job. That said , if the community was small I wouldn't have joined.

It's nice to communicate with others sharing your interests/vices. But there are other websites that have it free, it's a jungle out there.

The managers of the site really have to find a way to keep the eyeballs and monetize the site or all their previous efforts to build will be wasted as the site melts away or they should sell it (if buyers exist, like dpreview did)

It's no secret, that people on the internet want everything free, as AOL will tell you. We'll have to see how things go.

Rags

Dick you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I agree with Howard. Right now the 9000 paying members are footing the bill for people who want to use the full services for free. Do you think that it is fair to them that they should pay and you should get the same access and content for free? Whether you pay or not, you impact the number of servers required, administration, etc. that it takes to run this site. If only 13% of the costs are being covered by current membership, where do you propose that Nikonians get the rest of the money required? Perhaps a bailout from the US Gov't since everyone else is in line? There was a big uproar last week when Nikonians added the name of a Sponsor to the title of a forum, yet everyone wants everything to be free. As I understand it people will still be able to look at the forums, they just won't be able to post if they don't pay. Many sites you speak of are funded by ads from vendors like Amazon, etc. I think the level of information and help on Nikonians is greater than most places you can look. It is not filled up with flaming emails or stupid rants, but rather with useful insight from many professional or advanced shooters. Yes if you joined every paying web site you would go broke, and maybe you don't use the gallery and many other things that makes Nikonians unique. That is why there are many levels of membership. Even on Flicker you have to pay a fee for storage beyond a few gig. As Howard says $25 is not an enormous sum. Yes we may lose some people who think $25 is too much for what is provided here, but I would not expect a mass exodus.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

I'm a paying member, though I occasionally let my membership lapse. I find it useful, I want it to continue, I contribute. Its the best Nikon site I've found on the web. Richard

>but I would not expect a mass exodus.

No, just 143,000 of us.

In my view, forums thrive on traffic to be successful.

I frequently visit several photography forums...and happen to prefer Nikon Cafe over the others. On occasion, I enjoy visiting Nikonians--but only do so a few times a month.

I certainly don't derive $25 of benefits annually through my visits. Maybe this is what Nikonians prefers, but by forcing me to choose between a $25 membership and not visiting at all, I choose the latter.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of basic users will make that same decision, which will ultimately lead to the end of Nikonians. The problem is that there are just too many free alternatives out there.

I feel much better about making my voluntary contributions to a free site like Nikon Cafe than being forced into making donations.

As my days are now limited here, this will most likely be my last post!

>where do you propose that Nikonians get the rest of the money
>required? Perhaps a bailout from the US Gov't since everyone
>else is in line?

Last summer GM announced they were raising prices despite the fact the economy wasn't that great. I heard that didn't go so well. The economy is now going down the drain. Fortunately they are getting a bailout. Anyone think that will save them?


>Even on Flicker you have to pay a fee for storage beyond a few gig.
>As Howard says $25 is not an enormous sum.

Disclosure: I am a silver member here and do not even have a free flickr account. I like this site. I'm just expressing my version of reality with some hope of keeping this place alive.

Nikonians lowest membership level at $25 allows for 300 megs. Flickr Pro at $25 doesn't give you a few gig, you get unlimited uploads and storage. Another benefit is Ad-free browsing.

Let's assume it is 2 gigs, though. That would be 6.7 times the amount of storage for the same price on one of the most popular sites of any kind in any language in the world.


>but I would not expect a mass exodus.

We shall see.

I have a Flickr Pro account and you are correct that gives me unlimited storage. But my point was a pro account is not free. I still feel that people are arguing about this as though the only benefit is the forums. That of course is not true. But if a membership level was limited only to forums, no storage, no contests, no training, would that be of interest? I think you have to look at the whole package. I don't know the true numbers, but my guess is tha paying members probably have a higher percentage of pro and advanced amatuers than non payers. I pay because I felt I got far more for my money than just forum access. Most of my recent purchases where driven by information and advice I got here on Nikonians. I also gained information to make me a better photographer. If that isn't worth $25 a year than I don't know what is. Sure some people will leave, but that is not the end of Nikonians.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

>Dick you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I agree
>with Howard.

Hi Bob...

Whoa, Amigo... You've nailed the wrong guy. I totally support "Pay for Play" which is why I upped my status to "Gold" at my last renewal, and I'm totally happy I did so. I'm 64 and with the economic chaos of recent months, I have to be very careful in that I live on a fixed income and also have 4 kids in college...Ouch...

I don't think there's anything I have or have had of any value that hasn't come with a price. I visit some of the other sites like the Cafe', Nikongear and Miranda, etc., et al, but this site is "home base" so to speak simply because to me, it's special and I would miss it terribly.

I guess I also fail to see the wisdom in the grousing and whining of some others as $25/year is but a pittance compared to the enjoyment I derive from the Nikonians' Forums, Podcasts, e-zines, etc. and I'm happy to "slap leather" as they used to say in the old West, and pony up. And, I truly hope the vast majority of my fellow Nikonians feel the same way.

With ALL best wishes to ALL...

Dick
The Long Ranger
A Telephoto Lovin' Nikonian

"There are none so blind as those who would not see..."

Sorry Dick you are correct, I was guilty of shooting the messenger.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Interesting. I just decided to actually use "My Gallery"(when I get the time) and have decided to upgrade my membership just to support the site. Heck I have recouped my $25 by buying ThinkTank gear and my free Markins pouch.

Also the last few times I have tried to register on Nikon Cafe I got something like 'registrations closed'(this was not just from my computer!lol). Is Nikon Cafe feeling a crunch also?

I did not realize that only 9,000 of us are paying! Will have to go back and check the replies to the change of name of the Wildlife Forum.

The site has been a big help to me as was Dpreview a couple of years back(and still is to a lesser extent). I participate on several forums and most are supported by Sponsors and Ads. We shall see.

I am still renewing and upgrading, we shall see.
Cheers,Tom

T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

I don't frequent Nikon Cafe but I did go ove to look at the comments about Nikonians. The owner of that site was supportive of Nikonians trying to make ends meet, and was even saying donations to his site would be appreciated. If like tose posters stated that they would all use Nikon Cafe over Nikonians, then I think his increased membeship would cause him to change his free site too. There is no free lunch.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Even today, Nikonians is not for free, how could it be? I don't know how much, but it does cost money to run such an elaborate website: servers, programming, bandwidth, maintenance, etc.

The only question is how to pay for it. It can be advertising, or the customers pay, or a mix of these two. Any website is paid this way. I'm not aware of any other option.

So do we want advertising? Mention an 85mm lens in a post, and a sponsored link will appear next to it where to buy one - like it is with Google? Or do we rather want to pay $25 a year?

That is the only discussion we can have here - how to pay for this wonderful site, not if.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian

http://www.tkphoto.me/

>That is the only discussion we can have here - how to pay for
>this wonderful site, not if.

Well said! Succinct and positive. I wish I'd said it that way myself.

How about adding a Basic membership fee of $10 a year, reducing Silver, Gold and Platinum to $20, $60 and $100 dollars per year respectively? I think that sort of pricing will be attractive to a lot of existing Basic members. With a much higher paid membership, it would be possible to also add only a moderate amount of affiliate, AdSense and sponsored ad links in order to fatten site revenue to a respectable level.

The biggest problem I have with the current Nikonians announcement is that too much is changing for Basic members with too little incentive for Basic members to go along with the changes.

No matter how urgent or valid the Nikonians financial argument may be, its not realistic to think that going from totally free, site-wide basic access to a fully paid model in one breath is going to convert many Basic members. Where's the incentive? The existing value of the site is a partial incentive certainly, but when a person has already been participating in the creation of site content as a Basic member, something else is needed to convince that person to buy into the site.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard those are all good ideas. I know JRP and Staff are looking for ways to make membership more attractive to the members and are considering other benefits, so people should forward their ideas to him or Bo. I too am sorry to see the kind of reaction we are seeing from paid and non paid members. I am not a professional, but I was so satisfied with what I was getting out of Nikonians I first upgraded to Gold and now Platinum level. Is the site perfect, hell no, but with inputs from members it can be made better. Why should a few paying members pay while others get a free ride?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

>I am not a professional, but I was so satisfied with what I
>was getting out of Nikonians I first upgraded to Gold and now
>Platinum level. Is the site perfect, hell no, but with inputs
>from members it can be made better. Why should a few paying
>members pay while others get a free ride?

I'm in the same position as you, except that I recently upgraded from Silver to Gold. If a whole bunch of Basic members disappear leaving 'only' ten or twenty thousand active paid members, that's certainly no hardship. I think the vast majority of basic members merely lurk, glean information as they come across it, and rarely contribute. That's fine and it's the reality of these sorts of sites. That said, it's also clear that many basic members have contributed mightily over the years and continue to do so right now. My hope is that most of those good contributors will buy a Silver membership and continue their worthwhile participation in Nikonians.

One significant thing typical of paid membership sites is that the incidence of trolls is much lower than on sites which offer broad, free access.

Bo and company will have to admit sooner or later (if they haven't already done so) that they can't please all of the people all of the time. If someone participates in Nikonians strictly for the free interaction with other photographers in a variety of freely accessible discussion forums, I can't think of very many incentives which will motivate them to pay for a membership. My assumption is that Bo and company have considered that factor and are prepared to take a membership hit in several areas.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

While not scientific in any way, I did a quick scan yesterday of the forums I frequent. the majority of posts were from paying members though there were some from basic non paying members. I certainly have no problem with the people who have posted that they are down on their luck and may have to choose between food and a membership. I do have a problem with people who say "I was thinking about paying but now that you told me I have to do so to use all the stuff I have been using it is now offensive to me so I am leaving." I agree you will not please all of the people on a free site. For everyone like me who has chosen to go up at least one or even two levels in membership, even though they don't use all the stuff, there are probably 3 others who will never pay and would rather go to inferior sites instead. I scanned the comments on Nikon Cafe yesterday. Most of the people griping there were people who stopped in once in awhile but really never participated in the site. They see Nikonians only as forums with a gallery they do not want to use. I don't fault them, but I doubt we will miss that kind of membership. I am more concerned about people who are paying members and are being stampeded to the door for fear that Nikonians will fail. Well if it does fail it will be because the current members have not made themselves heard as to what they want from Nikonians.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Howard you nailed it!

It seems to me you will always lose eyeballs; attrition, other interests, adverse reaction to ads, adverse reaction to any change or dislike of another participant.

So while its important to keep what you have, it's also important to maintain the allure for new participants (which may result in some loss of what you have). Site sustainability may result in some bruises.

Rags

Why pay the $25? Show me another site that offers the same quality information and advice. I just upgraded to the Silver. Will many people leave? Perhaps. Where will they go? This is the best Nikon forum. I would just pay the $25 to show support, have my own gallery space and to be able to sell items. I think it's definitely worth it.

New Jersey Nikonian

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

We will be locked out. There is a difference.

They are running a big business here and deserve bigger salaries.

At near 80 I have no income but don't begrudge their working for all they receive. I am ashamed to be in the group that $25 is a big deal but it is.

Life is haves and havenots. Just the way it is.

Well maybe they can have an over 80 discount. I don't suggest seniors as I am already 70 and I think many Nikonians are in their 60's, if we all got discounts they might have to close down.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

>Well maybe they can have an over 80 discount. I don't suggest
>seniors as I am already 70 and I think many Nikonians are in
>their 60's, if we all got discounts they might have to close
>down.

Good idea, but I think that discounts for multiple membership purchases might work well. For example, how about a "Buy 1 membership at full price, then buy a second identical membership at 20% off to give to a senior." The donated memberships go into a pool. Senior photographers (or anybody on a fixed income) can fill out a simple application online and qualify for one of the donated memberships. That way, donated memberships are anonymous.

Personally, on that basis I'd be delighted to contribute several additional discounted memberships annually.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Recently Nikonians have been sending me messages encouraging me to renew or possibly upgrade my paid membership. I'm a charter member at silver level. (God, have I been here that long?)

Even more recently (this week), I was thinking that I've outgrown this group, and it's time to move on. This is not because I have at last reached a utopian level of excellence and no longer seek advice. It's that I've been reading more than the usual dose of nonsensical advice from people who should know better.

Today, after reading intelligent posts by Howard Carson, Bob Baldassano and others, I've decided to stay and pay.

One more point of contention: Why do we not have a specialty section on Stock Photography? Stock is no longer the domain of the professional. It's also of interest to semi-pros and hobbyists who provide much of the stock material now days.

Edo

P.S. Does anyone have a link to the Nikon Cafe mentioned in the original post? It seems there are a number of them.

Edo

>Edo wrote:
>
>P.S. Does anyone have a link to the Nikon Cafe mentioned in
>the original post? It seems there are a number of them.

Edo,
here is the link to the cafe...
Nikoncafe.com


ETA - I won't be leaving soon. I find the forum to be a very valuable asset to my education in photography.


Daniel
North Carolina
SmugMug

The one I used was www.nikoncafe.com, not all of the posts were against Nikonians, in fact some Nikonians were on there supporting our site.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Ed thanks for including me in the list of people who make intelligent posts - I am not sure my wife would agree.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Howard another excellent idea. Please forward it to JRP or Bo.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Kevin my thoughts exactly, it is why I became a Platinum even though I am not a Pro like most of them are. We need more people who think like you.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

I was lurker for about a year in this site. I've learned so much in this site that I decided to do the Gold membership to support this site.

I'm a paying member, so I have bought the right to question some statements here. Not picking on anybody, but here goes:

""Right now the 9000 paying members are footing the bill for people who want to use the full services for free. Do you think that it is fair to them that they should pay and you should get the same access and content for free?""

What content? The content that many non=paying members are providing? Keep in mind that a huge percentage of the people providing content are non-paying members, and not only do they provide content for free, they increase traffic numbers, so the ads Nikonians can sell to their sponsors are worth a lot more. There is a lot of value in that, and it is the business model that most web 2.0 applications are driven by.

""If that isn't worth $25 a year than I don't know what is. Sure some people will leave, but that is not the end of Nikonians.""

Depends on how many people leave. Clearly I happen to think it will be a lot more than you do. Besides, the numbers are misleading. They say they have 150,000 members, but how many are active. For all we know, 50% of the active numbers ARE paying. If that's the case, there is no way this revenue drive could begin to pay for what appears to be bloated expenses.

""No matter how urgent or valid the Nikonians financial argument may be, its not realistic to think that going from totally free, site-wide basic access to a fully paid model in one breath is going to convert many Basic members. Where's the incentive?""

Agree 100%. I think they went way overboard here.

""Why should a few paying members pay while others get a free ride?""

Becuase paying members are getting benefits that they use, where the free members are not. You make it sound like non-paying members are freeloading, when what they are really doing is participating at a level they are comfortable at, and providing content and and valuable traffic statistics to the site. IMO, that ain't freeloading.

""They are running a big business here and deserve bigger salaries. ""

Based on what? Do you know their current salaries? Heck, most user content driven forums do not have a list of paid staff. Look at the number of people this place employs and it greatly exceeds most forums. Personally, I do not think they have managed their costs well, and non-paying members are being asked to pay for it.

I think they should look at some of the creative suggestions here for getting more money out of their contributors, similar to things that Agitater has suggested. Heck, their content providers (us) seem to be doing a better job of coming up with alternative solutions than their (presumably) paid staff. And the suggestions are free!

Bottom line, I don't think their present proposed solution will work. I have seen it fail over and over and over again.

They need to manage their costs if they want to survive.



It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

I am a paying member here and enjoy the site. I also visit Nikon Cafe and other sites such as Photo.net and dpreview. I will continue to be a paid member, but I must confess my worry and reservation about the decision to oblige users to pay. Given the alternatives available, such a move would drive many good participants away. I do think that Nikonians should find some way to encourage but not oblige non-paying members to contribute, and find a way to acknowledge their contributions in terms of access. Nikonians, in my view, can and should get more ad revenues. If properly explained, members here can understand and accept such unavoidable advertisement. Good luck with coming up with a revised business model that can make this site sustainable at least for the next five years.

Ed Tsui

Hi Guys,

My 2c worth,

I have not been a member long but have found a lot of non paying members contributions a great help,

How things are going to work out in the future, time will tell,

For example,
One of my favorite fly fishing publications here in Aust has closed its doors,

Why?
It certainly had a lot of subscribers,
The problem was the global financial crisis had the biggest impact,
80% of the retail guys "pulled" their adverts from the magazine due to "downsizing", basically, the adverts were paying for the publication,

I am a "metallic" member, (silver), here in Australia where $10 AUD most probably would not buy a Big Mac in the USA,

At the current pricing, I am happy to renew my membership,

Regards,
Gary

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Bob your logic would only work if all the paying members were nto contributing. The fact is paying members and none paying members do contribute. If you have to ask what content, and think it comes primarily from non members, then you have never heard a podcast, never read an article in the magazine, never spoke with a forum moderator, never read the resources section. All of these things are done by paying members or Nikonians staff, not to even speak of the Pro Shop staff or the IT folks who keep the site running. Or what about the seminars or travel, etc. I could go an and on, but you get the point. Again I will say I have no problem with the fact that some people really can't afford $25 a year. Then they should go to the free sites to maximize their benefit. But I for one don't think 13 to 15% of the people who frequent this site should support the rest of the people who want to use it for free and get upset because they are asked to pay $25 a year for it. Less than 7 cants a day! You can't buy a newspaper for that, not in fact could you buy some Photo Mags for 30 days worth of 7 cents saved. None of us know how many people will decide to leave Nikonians, but I know a good thing when I see it, and I am sure thre are enough intelligent basic members right now who will realize that they do have a good thing here and will buy the minimum membership. For those who don't see the value, well I wish them luck.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Thing is, a lot of nan-paying members don't use any of that stuff. Hell, I don't use any of that stuff and I am a paying member. That's why a more creative program could work for the people that want that stuff. Say, sell the podcasts like mp3s, similar to a music store. Charge a flat fee per want ad insert, etc. It's all old technology at this point and not that difficult to do.

I don't have a problem with trying to collect money for services. I have a problem with the business model they are pursuing, as I have seen it fail time and time again. And that's a pretty bad deal for the paying members.


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

Over the past few years there has been a huge growth in what I refer to as the "entitlement" mentality. Which I perceive as a totally impractical and irrational belief that a small group should fund or support the various activities of a larger non-contributing group. The diminishing returns of this concept should be apparent to everyone. The old saying, "there is no free lunch," is as true here as elsewhere. And you are correct when you say, there are none so blind as those who would not see."

Robert we truly thank you for the support!

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org



I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

Thank you Armando the rest of the paying members thank you for your good sense and willingness to pitch in.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Your post has given a better picture of this excellent web site,

Being in Australia, sure, I don't have access to every thing, but for the others reading, as a Silver member I'm sure getting my money's worth without the "trolling" you get on almost any other web site,

I do think a trial period is a good option,

For example,

Prior to my purchase of the D700, I was able to make an informed opinion about the old questions, "DX or FX", prior to purchase,

This was info I got on Nikonians, did not even have to post, just read!

Its almost embarrassing the help I have had without being able to really contribute since the D700,

Regards,
Gary

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Hi:

Here is my take on the whole issue. I became a member of this forum, back in March 2007, after getting back to photography with the purchase of the D40. Right after I joined, I became a Silver member. However, I was not active for some time , because I belonged to another forum.

I became more active in Nikonians because it was far superior to any other forum and a tremendous wealth of information. In fact, Nikonians is my only forum and not just for photography. Since getting back to photography, after a 15+ years absence, I started from scratch. I would not have been able to make my, what I believe good decisions, in purchasing thousands of dollars worth of photo equipment without the invaluable help and guidance of many of the members who took time to offer advice.

In all honesty, I became embarrassed contributing only $25 for my annual membership, after all the money I was expending. Therefore, I upgraded my membership to Gold, the hard way; I did not use $39.50 coupon for purchasing the D300 book.

I’m very happy in this forum and the people have been very nice and hospitable to me. In fact in my website: www.hektorsphotos.com I have nothing but Nikonians logos in it. I am committed to the continued success of Nikoninas. I will upgrade my membership to Platinum but not this year and after the 24-70 and 70-200 VRII Again, this is a fantastic Website and $75/year is a pittance, IMHO. Nothing in life is free.

Best Regards,

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

Hector thanks for sharing your reasons for being a member. You have not only paid the piper in money but you have also been a good provider of information to others. I too had decided to up my membership for similar reasons. Although I have not met any Nikonian in person, I feel like I have known many of you for a long time and I value the insight that everyone brings to the forums. Even newbies who ask what looks like simple questions often are the catalyst for further understanding about how our cameras, lenses and software work. For me, after being an amateur most of my life and never owning a really good tripod or ever having a ball head. I got an excellent education over in the tripod forum and it led me to by the Markins Ball and Gitzo tripod I have today and I have never been happier with a purchase. My 35-70 f/2.8 lens which I bought for a steal price, would never have been in my hands except for the glowing comments made by members in the various forums I looked at. It is by far the best bang for the buck of any of my purchases. There were so many examples like this including honest critiques of my photos that made me realize I was getting far more out of my silver membership that I upgraded to gold and now platinum, because I wanted to support the effort even though many of the things that are now available to me as a Platinum member I will probably not use. It is people like you that will keep Nikonians viable long after the lurkers who have decided to abandon us for other sites are gone. I would rather belong to a finacially sound organization with people who are committed to making it better than one that has thousands of people who are on it just because it is free.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Hi Bob:

Thanks for your very kind words. It has also been great talking to you. I do not know if my contributions are that significant, but I’m doing my best. Therefore, I take your word .

You raised an excellent point that I did not address that is the ability to talk to people around the world, getting their perspectives. This is not just a local Website, but much more than that.

I’m basically reaching my freezing point regarding equipment. My next three items are the 24-70 (it is a matter of time,) the 70-200 Version 2 (maybe – I have not yet decided on it,) and the laptop. I would purchase the latter when I absolutely need it. My biggest requirement is the FSB. The good deals that Newegg keeps sending me, with discount coupons, are of laptops of 667 Mhz, but I want one of 1 GHz and those are still on the pricey side. I can wait; I really do not need it right now.

With the D300 + D700, I have enough for the next ten years, at least. I’m sure that the D700x and/or the D800 or D900 are going to be top-notch. However, they might require more computer power of both the Tower and Laptop. In addition, the more the difference in performance between the D300 and the other body, the less I would be using the D300. Better bodies are good, but, the bottom line imho, it is up to the photographer to do the best with what he/she has – I only publish on the web.

My goal, after the equipment purchases are done, is to keep the photography budget to less than $1,000/year. My Website + Nikonians are ~ $150.00/year. In addition, I have five softwares to keep up with: NX, LR, Noise Ninja, Nik Efex, and Camera Control Pro. That would range between $500 - $600/year. Therefore and in all probabilities, I will up to Platinum in my next membership renewal.

Best Regards,

Hektor

PS: B&H refunded me $5.50 for the D700 shipping and I did not ask for it. Actually, I refused their offer. That is what I wanted to hear from them that I am a valued customer and not just a number. I’m happy now.

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

B&H has always been a class act to me.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

Hi Bob:

I agree about B&H and it is the place I really trust, but got very upset with them. We made up!

I just took the 70-200 VRII off the wish list – do not need it. The 70-300 VRII and with the D700, just crank the ISO. I’m just about to pull the trigger on the 24-70 (and two-day air ,) but will sleep over it. If I do, I’m done with photo equipment. This time, I really mean it!!!

Thom Hogan said the following, today:

“Jan 12--I'm expecting at least Nikon lens and accessory prices to go up substantially in the US in the not too distant future. If you look at when some of these items were originally priced, Nikon has suffered very large product margin hits on many of these due to the currency exchange difference. I think it reasonable to expect a list price bump soon, then rebates again to move any inventory that sits around too long.”

http://www.bythom.com/

Best Regards,

Hektor

Update: I just pulled the trigger on the 24-70 – due to arrive this Friday. I did sleep on it – took a nap! If anything goes wrong with the order, I won’t try to fix it. If it happens, it does and if doesn’t happen, it does not. Byers’ remorse? Maybe. However, I really wanted the lens! I will re-evaluate the 85mm 1.4. The problem with it is that its minimum focusing distance is 3’ and the 24-70 is 1.2’ – I can get closer. If the bouquet is about the same, the 85mm is gone.

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos