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ZiggyStardust Registered since 30th Dec 2008Sun 25-Jan-09 06:38 AM
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"NX2 vs Lightroom"


TH
          

I did a side by side comparison of NX2 and Lightroom, and the differences are quite huge. The attached file was not touched in either case, but the rendering is dramatically different. Can anyone explain? If the delta was small it would be understandable, but it isn't.

Thanks!

Ziggy


Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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AndyMac Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Dec 2003Sun 25-Jan-09 01:29 PM
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#1. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 0


Odessa, US
          

The biggest issue is that Lightroom (and all other non-Nikon prodcuts) ignore all in-camera settings except for the white balance. You can get around this to some extent by using the Camera Profiles that are included with LR 2.2. These come pretty closet to simulating the picture control settings that you can download from Nikon.

But if you have custom settings in the camera that you need applied to the image you will have to do so during post processing since Lightroom won't read them from the NEF file like NX2 will.

By the way, there are limits to photo sizes for posting. I believe it's 900 pixels on the long side with a size limit of 150K.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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SoCalMan Registered since 27th Jun 2006Mon 26-Jan-09 05:19 AM
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#3. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 1


Bonsall, US
          

I agree that sometimes "The biggest issue is that Lightroom (and all other non-Nikon products) ignore all in-camera settings except for the white balance." However, that is only a part of the difference.

The gear-heads on these sites are often fixated on small, imagined differences in camera sensor performance that in the real world are completely obliterated by raw software differences.

I own NX2, Adobe CS3 and DxO. Even when all three have ALL adjustments disabled, the resulting JPGs are astonishingly different. So different, in fact, that in some cases non-photographers assume the same image was made by different cameras.

Many posters have claimed that Nikon (Canon, …) should know best how to interpret the raw image because it was made with "their" camera. Utter nonsense. Raw image interpretation is purely a mathematical function with dozens of degrees of freedom: there is no "right" conversion.

For example, originally, Nikon Capture did a very poor job compared to Adobe RAW and DxO. Capture NX got better, and NX2 is very good, although buggy and awkward.

Each of these three has its strengths. NX2 is very good with reds and yellows (e.g., sunsets, fires). CS3 handles over and underexposure best, but has trouble with color balance, especially skies. DxO corrects distortion and does a great job with micro contrast, but tends to be too contrasty overall. CS3 automatically removes hot pixels. NONE are as good at moderating noise as NeatImage or some of the other third-party products.

In careful hands, $200 or less in software, plus careful shooting technique, can make a $900 camera indistinguishable from a $3000 “pro” camera in all but a tiny handful of situations. Lenses are a different story. A cr@ppy lens is a cr@ppy lens.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 26-Jan-09 06:14 AM
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#4. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 3


San Jose, US
          

Jim I disagree with you that there is no "right" conversion of the RAW file. While the final image as processed by the photogtapher may differ from the "as shot" condition, you need to properly decode the NEF to get the real "as Shot". Even experts like Tom Hagen point out that only Nikon has the correct algorithms to decode Active D lighting. No one else can even see the tags. If you can't see a contol you can't apply it, so the only way to get your "as shot", not your final artistic interpretation is to use Nikons code.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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BJNicholls Gold Member Awarded for his contributions to the community and the Resources Charter MemberTue 27-Jan-09 06:26 PM
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#20. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 4


Salt Lake City, US
          

If you're shooting raw, you shouldn't use settings like D-lighting if it messes with correct exposure (and it can). You certainly can get the same D-lighting effect with another raw converter - that setting doesn't change the raw data except in respect to exposure. The only difference NX has by reading the tag is to automatically apply fill-light curves where you will need to engage that manually with another converter or define a preset if you shoot with D-lighting a lot.

Tags aren't image data, they're just instructions to NX to match your in-camera image processing settings. "As shot" isn't "real" any more than any decoding of the raw data is "real". "As shot" is in-camera processing with Nikon's idea of what to do with an image and with the few camera settings you have available (compared to the full power of a raw converter). If you like Nikon's interpretation, that's great but that doesn't make it more correct.

BJ

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 07:15 PM
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#21. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 20


San Jose, US
          

You are correct that RAW file data is not real in that Nikon actually does some manipulation of the data hitting the sensor, but all RAW Processors read this manipulated data. Nikon knows exactly how they manipulated the data and also includes the proprietary tags so it also knows how you set the camera. So your assertion is that Nikon's interpretation of its own data and algorithms is not more correct than 3rd party RAW processors that don't have the ability to read the tags and also don't have access to Nikon's proprietary algorithms? I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with your logic.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Tue 27-Jan-09 07:56 PM
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#22. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 21
Tue 27-Jan-09 07:57 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

Again, I agree with Bob,

The bottom-line is...no matter which methodology is used...Nikon is always going to know it's own $H*T, better than anyone else does.

That's it!

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005Mon 26-Jan-09 03:41 PM
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#6. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 3


Apollo, US
          

>>
>>
>For example, originally, Nikon Capture did a very poor job
>compared to Adobe RAW and DxO. Capture NX got better, and NX2
>is very good, although buggy and awkward.
>
I am quite puzzled by this comment. I own LR2, NX2 and PS3 and have explored and used them all. Of those three, I find LR the most awkward and non-intuitive. Could you be more specific?

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 26-Jan-09 11:08 PM
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#8. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 6


San Jose, US
          

I must admit I don't use LR, having tried the original and at the time finding it wanting compared to CS3. I am sure it is much improved, but if I am going to use an Adobe product it is going to be Photoshop. My main RAW processor is NX2 because the results are spectacular and it is very intuitive as you work directly on the image. I only use CS4 extended when I have a special need for some of its exotic tools. Day to day i can process my NEF RAW faster with better results in NX2.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Tue 27-Jan-09 12:27 AM
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#9. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 8
Tue 27-Jan-09 12:29 AM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>My main RAW processor is NX2 because
>the results are spectacular and it is very intuitive as you
>work directly on the image. I only use CS4 extended when I
>have a special need for some of its exotic tools. Day to day i
>can process my NEF RAW faster with better results in NX2.


It's intriguing how folks see things so differently - eh!
I totally agree with you Bob...I find the results in NX2 spectacular too...the pictures pop and have that tonal vibe I want. I also find the programme in general very easy/un-complicated to use and much faster than in Photoshop.

Final results aside, my pics just don't LOOK as good in Adobe whilst processing them - so why on earth would I really want to use that prog - IF I didn't have to?

Obviously - I wouldn't.

To be honest, I don't really care who has the best prog around...I would be just as happy using Adobe products all along - IF they did a fantastic job...it makes no different to me who gets my money at the end of the day.

However, I do think that a certain amount of brainwashing has taken place...over the years, and now for a lot of folks...IF it's not Adobe it must somehow be inferior...Geeze, talk about capitalistic based corporate monopoly or what!!!...Ole Joseph Stalin will be laughing in his grave...I guess coz it's "our" western brand of economic dictatorship - it's all just fine n dandy?

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 02:28 AM
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#10. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 9


San Jose, US
          

Photoshop and its derivatives are a huge business not only for Adobe but Kelby Training. I am a member of NAPP and after watching their tutorials and reading tons of excellent detailed books on Photoshop, especially by Dan Margulis, I consider myself pretty knowledgeable in Photoshop. I first started using NX just to process the RAW files but when NX2 came out I was surprised at how easy it was to get excellent results, so of course I use it. It saves time and gives me a better file, why would I use anything else? For the stuff I can't do in NX2, I go to the full Photoshop program. People do seem to have a problem with the idea that Photoshop may not be the best product to process their NEF RAW. Canon doesn't have an equivalent program, so I can see why they would want to use Photoshop.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Tue 27-Jan-09 03:32 AM
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#11. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 10


CA
          

Well, purely from a crossover platform degredation standpoint...it would be optimal to be able to process a NEF entirely within an NX series prog...and be finished.

Everytime we transfer/save/render or do whatever within a 3rd party (foreign) setup...the file and/or base quality is compromised to some degree.

I'm actually surprised that camera co's like Nikon and Canon haven't fully developed their own MEGA GREAT processing software to accompany their digital equipment long ago...after all, it's the most natural of business progressions.

Once again - it's not like Adobe own the planetary patent on editing prowess.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 04:02 AM
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#12. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 11


Clemmons, US
          

Because they are camera, optics, and electronics companies. Not software companies. Making high quality, robust, and properly performing software is much harder than many of us think.

Nikon had to carry their core raw conversion routines to an outside contractor (Nik Software) to get Capture NX and NX 2 written. I hope they rewrite some of the demosaic algorithms some day soon to prevent artifacts from hair, fine structures in buildings, bridges, etc. ANd maybe suppress obvious hot pixels? We get auto CA correction (yes!!) so why not the hot pixel problem?

If you ever wonder why the NX2 interface and interaction with the operating system are as odd as they are, remember that Nik only ships plug-ins for Photoshop except for Capture NX/NX2 family. To me that speaks *volumes* for why software oddities are the way they are.

It was very encouraging to hear the Image Doctors Podcast with the Nik Product Manager for their contracted Capture NX family work. Limited XMP support and the excellent selective editing tools are one thing. But the admission that they see how high-volume workflows need more attention in the future releases of Capture NX should be applauded.

I'm usually not a high-volume shooter until I go to a sporting event of a school musical event. Then I have tons of pics......

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 04:32 AM
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#13. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 12


San Jose, US
          

In today's modern world there is no such thing as a pure hardware vs. software company. when I worked in the Defense industry, Software made up 30 to 50% of the system, because modern defense hardware systems require interaction with firmware and software. This is also true for commercial products too; I had also worked for Cisco. You are correct that producing high quality robust software is difficult unless you take a software systems engineering approach to its development and test; many companies don't. The core of Nikon's algorithms come from Nikon's film scanner software where film images were digitized. Yes Nikon went to Nik because Nik had proprietary software tools using U technology that met Nikon's needs. It is not uncommon for a company to buy some elements of their software suite rather than develop it themselves. The same with hardware. No company today would consider developing all the elements of their product from scratch. That said, the interface to a software product is more a result of human engineering or the lack thereof. While Microsoft has produced standards for coding software in their OS, you would be surprised at how many companies ignore the rules. Photoshop was not developed for Photographers, because when it was developed Photographers turned their photos over to graphic professionals. Its interface is not exactly intuitive. This is what LR tried to correct. NX is only on its second release, and improvements have been made to the interface and more are coming in later releases. Most people when they open NX2 are confused because it does not look like Photoshop and they think it is too hard to use. Yet a few hours with the program is usually all you need to start producing results.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 05:48 AM
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#15. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 13


Clemmons, US
          

I think NX 2 is much more straight forward than Photoshop also. We "reach" as the old Start Trek episode said. And yes, it seems much of the distaste with some users is that it's not Photoshop.

API calls, interfacing with file systems, modern multithreaded operating systems (like maybe even 64 bit memory address ones....anyone at Nikon and Nik listening?). I worked for EMC. And we both know that companies have core competencies. Nikon's is most certainly not full-blown application software engineering development or any of what I just listed. And I think Nik has some deficiencies also, per my previous post.

I'm not surprised at all about people not following Microsoft's (or Sun's etc.) application writing guidelines. I ran into at work for many years myself.

NX 2 is a solid step forward from NX. The results are quite often excellent. If you get it the way you like in-camera then your post-processing life is very simple. I'm looking forward to NX 3.0. And I look forward to cleaner and more open metadata documentation for NEF files. Nikon should be able to release a modest specification on how it handles XMP and IPTC metadata. NX2 gets us part of the way there already.....

I think we agree far more than not. One notable exception being that I'm willing to call our babies (NX 2 and some of the other Nikon software) "ugly". Sure they are our babies. We love what they can do for us.....but can't we agree that they are not always pretty? And also not very practical in certain use cases?(most wedding photographers come to mind)

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 04:48 PM
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#16. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 15


San Jose, US
          

Oh I do agree that the NX platform still needs user interface work and some more tools to make it better. Sometimes we work around an interface because the underlying Sw is so powerful we still want to use it; take Photoshop for example. I too am looking forward to NX3.0, as NIK and Nikon are on the right track.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Tue 27-Jan-09 04:59 AM
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#14. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 12


CA
          

>Because they are camera, optics, and electronics companies.
>Not software companies.

In the digital realm there's no simple clear-cut divisions like that anymore. Digital simply intertwines the software environment into the physical element. A D300 is reliant upon both integral components, neither will function without the other.

Look at the music world, exactly the same thing...and funny enough they are experiencing very similar hurdles too. As with analog, it has been quite a challenge to produce a truly great tone via the digital platform - just as digital images lack some of the inherent organic qualities of film.

With music - no digital anything can capture the same audio characteristic as the simple "air push" component as it comes out of a speaker cone. Likewise, film has certain attributes that can never be 100% reproduced within a digital setup.

Software/hardware it's all part of the living network.
WE are Locutus of Borg...Delta Quadrant Primary Juncture #43577

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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TXCiclista Registered since 15th May 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 05:30 PM
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#17. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 12


Fort Worth, US
          

>We get auto CA correction (yes!!)

In my humble opinion, this is a signficant part of NX2's "superior" rendering of NEF's. I can color-balance a photo in LR to resemble an NX2 photo, but it takes far more effort to achieve the CA results in LR that NX2 gives me automatically. Since CA has a definite impact on sharpness, correcting for it is a critical part of PP. Having it done automatically is a significant contribution to the final results.

-----
This is my Nikon. There are many like it, but this one is mine!

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 05:54 PM
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#18. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 17


Clemmons, US
          

I'm glad others notice that issue as well. Lining up the different component colors along edges definitely helps apparent sharpness, local contrast, whatever we all think it should be called.

And manually correcting it is a total bear for me. Just one or two images out of 50 needing manual correction loses tons of time for me. Even my 70-200 VR has some appreciable CA in situations so it's not all about "oh you use poor lenses"

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Mon 26-Jan-09 01:18 AM
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#2. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 0


Clemmons, US
          

Please provide the camera settings as well as the Develop settings from Lightroom for comparison. Then we can make some suggestions as to cause.

My guess is this is the Adobe Standard named Camera Calibration profile. And the tone curves are very different. possibly some saturation differences but that may be an artifact of the different Calibration profiles.

Best Regards,
Michael

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Mon 26-Jan-09 08:08 AM
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#5. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 2
Mon 26-Jan-09 08:13 AM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

Bob and I seem to be agreeing upon this same issue over & over again in different threads.

It's obvious, that Nikon knows it's own NEF file technology with flawless accuracy...better than anyone else...and therefore, by only using their SDK engine will one actually be able to obtain the NEF image "as shot".

IF you prefer a 3rd party (ie: Adobe) platform rendition of a NEF...then fine...use it...however, it simply cannot BE 100% true.

Personally, I have no problem with working completely within a Nikon based processing/editing environment - IF they can offer me ALL the fundamental functionality required on a daily basis.

I only use Nikon gear and shoot in NEF, so in reality...why would I wish to use an outside 3rd party software programme - IF I can keep my workflow entirely within a singular platform?

WE've only needed Adobe (up until recently) simply because Nikon hadn't really stepped up to the plate...now that they are starting to do so, things will of course change.

It's not like we owe Photoshop a living or anything

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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The Smokester Registered since 19th Dec 2008Mon 26-Jan-09 04:06 PM
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#7. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

I applaud the OP for actually posting images demonstrating the differences he is talking about. All he needs to do now is fill in the details of how he processed each image.


I trust you are using the most recent profile from Adobe...This makes a big difference.

Thank you.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Tue 27-Jan-09 05:56 PM
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#19. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 7


Clemmons, US
          

I hope the OP returns to the thread to share the application settings with us.

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 03:28 PM
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#33. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 7


Canton, US
          

Yes, the proper profile can make a big difference.

But it isn't surprising that NX2 and LR would give different results right out of the box. LR is meant to work with virtually every digital camera on the market, so its default rendering can't be expected to look like what you'd get with the Nikon software.

However, one of the strengths of LR is its flexibility. If you don't like the "look" that a particular profile gives you, simply create your own from almost infinite possibilities and then save it as a preset. The sliders in LR may look simple, but they are actually quite sophisticated and can yield very subtle results.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 03:46 PM
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#35. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 33


Clemmons, US
          

Hi Steve,
Yes, I agree with your points. I consider the Camera Calibration choice to the the largest influence on this particular image. I count that as a "setting" in my earlier post.

After the impact of the Calibration chosen I expect tone curve, saturation and/or vibrance, and the sharpening to all come into play on this image.

  

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doc5md Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Wed 28-Jan-09 12:54 AM
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#23. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 0


Williamsport, US
          

I have a question for everyone. Please don't flame as I really don't know the answer here. I will preface this with letting you know I shoot RAW and use LR.
Here's the question: If you are shooting RAW and just use NX to convert to jpg 'automatically' using the 'in-camera' settings, why not just shoot jpg? isn't it doing the same thing? or is there more?
Thanks, just trying to learn the in's and out's here.
Quinn

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 01:10 AM
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#24. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 23


Clemmons, US
          

Hi Quinn,
Doing only that would not make much sense over the camera JPEGs. If we actually use a few tools in Capture NX 2 we can get better results at the extremes.

From what I have seen demonstrated, you often can get slightly better shadow detail from doing the conversion straight in NX 2. More importantly if you start clipping a highlight in a channel you can attempt to recover some of that lost detail with exposure compensation or Highlight Protection.

White Balance is best corrected in raw, not the camera processed JPEG. Luminous Landscape website had some demonstrations of how in some lighting circumstances you simply cannot fix it in JPEG but you can when starting with raw.

What you propose means not using the tools. Save the time and shoot straight JPEG.

--Michael

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Wed 28-Jan-09 01:13 AM
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#25. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 23
Wed 28-Jan-09 04:22 AM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>I have a question for everyone. Please don't flame as I
>really don't know the answer here. I will preface this with
>letting you know I shoot RAW and use LR.
>Here's the question: If you are shooting RAW and just use NX
>to convert to jpg 'automatically' using the 'in-camera'
>settings, why not just shoot jpg? isn't it doing the same
>thing? or is there more?
>Thanks, just trying to learn the in's and out's here.
>Quinn

I don't think anyone would simply use NX2 to convert to jpg "automatically"...using the in-camera settings...NX2 is used to process the NEF much further via a non-destructable medium...that one can save via several different versions of - without destroying the original file.

IF I simply shoot in jpeg...I don't have this highly flexible 'intermediate' processing vehicle.

Just because the end product may indeed still be a jpeg file...doesn't mean that the 'journey' is the same...because it's totally different. The NEF route enables the user a completely different set of options.


Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 03:14 AM
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#26. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 25


Raleigh, US
          

I'm anxious to hear what LR settings were used as well. It looks a bit like the ACR 4.4 or Adobe default profile to me. I just switched to the latest "Camera Standard/Vivid" profiles and theyre MUCH improved.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Wed 28-Jan-09 03:24 AM
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#27. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 26
Wed 28-Jan-09 04:23 AM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>I'm anxious to hear what LR settings were used as well. It
>looks a bit like the ACR 4.4 or Adobe default profile to me. I
>just switched to the latest "Camera Standard/Vivid"
>profiles and theyre MUCH improved.

It's funny, coz I hear exactly the same remarks here...as I did with regard to digital guitar/audio processing for the past 15-20 years.

I don't want "much improved" close, almost, nearly or perhaps with the next upgrade - how about let's just get it friggin' 100% right, now!

It always appears to be that never ending quest - "are we there yet?"

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 03:55 AM
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#28. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 27


Raleigh, US
          

>>I'm anxious to hear what LR settings were used as well.
>It
>>looks a bit like the ACR 4.4 or Adobe default profile to
>me. I
>>just switched to the latest "Camera
>Standard/Vivid"
>>profiles and theyre MUCH improved.
>
>It's funny, coz I hear exactly the same remarks here...as I
>did with regard to digital guitar/audio processing for the
>past 15-20 years.
>
>I don't want "much improved" - how about let's just
>get it friggin' 100% right!
>
>It always appears to be that never ending quest - "are we
>there yet?"
>

I hear you. I design and build my own tube guitar amps to make sure they sound right.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 04:31 AM
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#29. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 28


Raleigh, US
          

Well i finally took the Pepsi challenge...

I just finally d/led and played with Capture NX2 and ran a few NEFs through in both it and LR 2.2 using the 'Camera Standard" profile. I did some people shots, some dog shots (fur for sharpness), some outdoor woods shots, and some city shots.

I must say.. with every pic I like what Capture did better. I didnt touch a single button in Capture, I just looked at whatever popped up. I don't even know if there is an "auto" button like LR has. In Lightroom, often my defaults are a bit dark until I hit "Auto". So i compared the LR using just "Auto" at first in the Develop Module.

The Capture versions looked sharper, better colors (in faces and in the woods), and had more detail in both highlights and lowlights.. I then added a Clarity=25 and a Vibrance=25 to see if that'd help, but it didnt.

So what a wrench this throws in things... *smacks forehead*

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 05:50 AM
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#31. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 29


San Jose, US
          

Dan I applaud you for doing the right thing and checking it out for yourself. Too many people listen to the propaganda about LR but fail to actually do a side by side. You can now see why many of us are such NX2 supporters, and why we keep saying only NX2 is going to get the image right; the rest may come close but they will not hit the nail on the head. For us NX2 types we want as perfect an image as we can get from our RAW files and the answer is use NX2. Just think how much better your image would have been in NX2 if you actually used any of the processing features.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 03:38 PM
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#34. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 31


Canton, US
          

C'mon, Bob, let's be fair about this. I don't see any propaganda about Lightroom any more than there is propaganda about NX/NX2. Many people get top-quality results with either program, and you have said that you don't even use LR yourself.

NX2 may well indeed give you results you consider better right out of the box; while LR takes more tweaking to find the right settings for a particular camera or image style you want. But once you have it, it's locked in. It really isn't a matter of giving up quality for convenience, you can get excellent or so-so results with either program depending on how you use it.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 08:53 AM
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#45. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 34


San Jose, US
          

Hi Steve yes that was a poor choice of words on my part. The fact is there is a lot of discussion about what results you get using LR vs NX2 and as I said in an earlier post, if you are looking to get your image to look like what you saw on the back of the camera, the NX2 image will look like that upon opening it. The LR version may be close but it won't be exact. What you do with the image after it is opened now depends on your skill in the program you are using and here we can agree. I don't use LR, as I tried it and quite frankly felt it was a poor substitute for the full up version of Photoshop I already had and used. My consistent point and you can disagree with this is that I can get better and quicker results with NX2 than Photoshop or LR and I am very good with Photoshop, but as you said LR takes more tweaking. Again no matter what I do in Photoshop, my preference for RAW processing is NX2 not ACR. There are many people who share my view, and many like you who do not. There are also many people who have not tried NX2 and my other post was just saying that you should try it because you may be surprised, and what I had meant by the word propaganda, should have been stated as PR. Too many people think that only Adobe can provide a viable solution for post processing images. I do think at one time I believed that, especially when I was using multiple branded cameras. I know that after using NX2 it gives me what I need.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 04:17 PM
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#37. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 31


Clemmons, US
          

Hi Bob,
I am encouraging you to reconsider a few of your word choices. "Right" and "perfect" are difficult to defend in this arena. You certainly find the rendering of NEF through NX2 very pleasing (as do I the vast majority of the time). You are implying a correctness that is not well supported.

Let's take some examples:
** Thom Hogan in his camera reviews almost always calls out how Nikon images are oversaturated to some extent or another over the Imatest 100% level (even with Neutral Picture Control). I would contend that is a measure of objective correctness and the Nikon rendering is, by definition, not correct. It's over saturated. However, many of us find that pleasing so we don't worry about it in most shooting circumstances.

** Furthermore, in those same discussions and plots he shows the Hue shifts from actual. In other words, the Nikon rendering of the scene is not precise to the actual image target. That would not fit an objective standard of "right" or "perfect.

** In my own shooting experience I have discovered that Nikon applies a minimum contrast curve that I absolutely cannot undo in the software. In other converters I can reveal shadow detail that is not attainable in some cases with Nikon Capture NX 2. One would have to reconsider what is "right" or "correct" in those circumstances. Often it's not an issue for the image, but it is interesting to note that such a situation is basically you losing shadow data....or at least visual access to it.

** Finally, I think the conversation so far implicitly has been around color and tone. But how about the demosaic algorithms? That's critically important. I have portrait examples of my older daughter and landscape/architecture examples of a bridge and other repeating structures that show clearly that the demosaic algorithm in the Capture family gets confused and introduces artifacts that are totally unreal (as in they don't exist in the actual scene I shot) and detract from the image. Hairs cross over each other on my daughter's forehead and have a fuzzy pattern around the intersection. Why? Because the demosaic routines couldn't figure out where the edges were and drew total nonsense. And it's easily visible in modest sized prints, not just enlargements.

In summary, you are a big advocate of Nikon's own software for post processing. You deeply approve of the results and enjoy them. I do also. You feel strongly enough to be an active member in this forum. I feel very empowered with Capture NX 2. But I am also alert to it's particular behaviors. And given the above objective evidence points, I would not use a phrase like "only NX2 is going to get the image right." Sometimes the resulting image if most definitely not 'as shot'. I believe I have made a solid case for a different term for the results you and I both enjoy. The results may be often good/great/excellent/pleasing/wonderous, but they may not be truly correct in an objective fashion.

I wonder if we have all scared off the OP since the post-processing (and camera) settings in each image have not been revealed. I hope we hear from him soon.

Many Thanks,
Michael

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 03:20 PM
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#47. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 37


San Jose, US
          

Michael you make very good points, so a definition is in order. By "Right" I mean what you saw on the rear display of your Nikon Camera. I will agree that no camera captures a scene as our eye sees it. But if I shoot a picture with my Nikon Camera and view the image and adjust it as i shoot by looking at the histogram and other tools I get an image that I am happy with at first, though I may make further adjustments when I open it in a RAW processor. So what I want my Raw processor to do is show me that same image that I saw when I open it in the RAW processor, so that becomes my "Right" image or as I have called it my "Perfect" image in that it is an exact representation of what I saw in the display. I also want my RAW processor to let me change my mind in the way I applied my camera controls and features that I paid a lot of money for because I bought a D700. I don't want the RAW processor to relegate my camera to a second tier camera because it can't use my new features and apply them to the image it renders. Now I am free to apply my RAW processor tools to that image and adjust it in a way that pleases me from an artistic or technical standpoint to the best of my ability to use the tools supplied. I have not seen the demosaic issues you have stated in your post. I have reviewed the dpreview post about the comparisons between LR, and View NX RAW processing and that study showed NX2 to give better results. So I hope my little definition adds some clarity to the inputs as I don't want to appear to be a fan boy as I too know that NX2 is not perfect in itself, but I do believe it will start me off with the best representation of what I saw on my camera display.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 05:50 PM
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#53. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 47


Clemmons, US
          

Glad to read your post. I would still encourage a vocabulary change going forward since right, nearly perfect, or best are words with connotations of objective correctness. And without a lengthy contextual discussion like we just had I think it's sending a message that is different from what you have been wanting to put forward.

As you do, I certainly like to start with something that's very close to what I saw on my D90 or D80. They aren't color profiled displays like my monitor at home, but you and I seem to have a similar interest in starting with what we saw on the camera display (if we happened to look while busy shooting).

To be fair, my demosaic errors are very rare. At least I don't notice them very often. But the potential is out there.

I'm still sticking with NX2 as my primary converter. However, this month I spent some mad Christmas money from my family on DxO Optics Pro 5.3 and Lightroom 2.2 upgrade. I've hedged my bets.

I had the feeling we were in much closer agreement than some readers might have initially thought. Just a vocabulary mismatch. Thank you very much for taking the time to thoughtfully clarify your statements for me and the members reading.

I have found this ultimately to be a useful discussion thread.

My next big challenge is come up with a good keywording, label, and rating workflow. At the moment it may be a one way street from Photo Mechanic to Nikon applications then into Expression Media 2 as a final resting place (Photoshop CS3 editing before that only in certain circumstances). I am considering starting a thread about metadata manipulations and Digital Asset Management for NEF-centric workflows. If I do, I hope you and everyone else on this thread will join in. I suspect we can put together something very useful.

Best Regards,
Michael

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Thu 29-Jan-09 07:21 PM
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#55. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 53
Thu 29-Jan-09 07:23 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>I would still encourage a vocabulary
>change going forward since right, nearly perfect, or best are
>words with connotations of objective correctness. >

IF you've ever studied in-depth epistemology, ...you would know that everything we say as individuals is merely "subjective" enterpretation of data, events, experience, etc.

In short, it's our personal bent.

Simply because objective correctness doesn't (and cannot) exist within the realm of logic.

Therefore, I don't think it's really appropriate for any of us to try and influence others on how they should word their dialogue here.

As "right" and "perfect" are soley subjective in nature...and thus only related in the direct (first person) context to the said writer...WE as observers do not have the premise by which to comment

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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lawndartdriver Registered since 30th Mar 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 02:47 PM
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#32. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 29
Wed 28-Jan-09 02:49 PM by lawndartdriver

US
          

I, too, have become an avid NX2 user and now shoot only in RAW. I found a discussion on Nikonians about filter add-ins to NX2 and downloaded a 30 day FREE TRIAL of Niks Color Efex 3.0 for NX2. I am SHOCKED at how well the filters improved my pics. I applied some to some old mediocre jpgs from last year and it snapped them into COOL!

I will definitely buy this one.

http://www.niksoftware.com/colorefexpro/usa/entry.php

Jimmie
D3S, D3, D200, 18-200VR, 14-24mm f2.8, 24-70mm f2.8G, 70-200mm f2.8G VR, 50mm f1.4D and G, 85mm f1.4D, 300mm f2.8D AFS
"Help me Obiwan...."

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 05:42 AM
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#30. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 23


San Jose, US
          

Quinn I can see how you may think we are talking about making the RAW file like the jpeg, because we keep talking about Nikon settings and algorithms, but we are not. The JPEG file is far inferior to the RAW file, as the in camera process takes the RAW data and then processes it to make the JPEG, throwing away much of the information never again to be recovered. What we are talking about is the fact that only Nikon NX has the capability to take the RAW file and process it with all the Nikon settings and algorithms to give the best representation of what fell on the sensor. This will be either a 12 or 14 bit file not 8 bit. Now if you are really lucky your image was exposed exactly correctly and you were not pushing the dynamic range of the image. If so when you open the NEF in NX2 it will be the final image shot exactly as you wanted it, with all your camera setting applied. If you opened that exact same RAW file in LR or any other RAW processor, it would read the WB, the only setting it can read and then apply its best approximation to what Nikon would have done with the data, but it will not be exact, so you now have an image that was perfect in NX2, but needs further processing in LR to get close. Now if your file wasn't a perfect exposure, in NX2 you are still starting with all your setting in use and you can now go in NX2 and actually change the camera settings, staying in RAW the whole time and completely process your image with just a few quick steps that can be revisited at any time. This image and changes and any other versions you create will all be saved within the NEF not in side cars like Photoshop does. The reason to shoot RAW is that because you are working on a 12 or 14 bit file non destructively, you can make big changes to the file without creating artifacts and if using NX2 have total control of all the camera functions after you shoot.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 03:50 PM
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#36. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 30


Raleigh, US
          

>Quinn I can see how you may think we are talking about making
>the RAW file like the jpeg, because we keep talking about
>Nikon settings and algorithms, but we are not. The JPEG file
>is far inferior to the RAW file, as the in camera process
>takes the RAW data and then processes it to make the JPEG,
>throwing away much of the information never again to be
>recovered. What we are talking about is the fact that only
>Nikon NX has the capability to take the RAW file and process
>it with all the Nikon settings and algorithms to give the best
>representation of what fell on the sensor. This will be either
>a 12 or 14 bit file not 8 bit. Now if you are really lucky
>your image was exposed exactly correctly and you were not
>pushing the dynamic range of the image. If so when you open
>the NEF in NX2 it will be the final image shot exactly as you
>wanted it, with all your camera setting applied. If you opened
>that exact same RAW file in LR or any other RAW processor, it
>would read the WB, the only setting it can read and then apply
>its best approximation to what Nikon would have done with the
>data, but it will not be exact, so you now have an image that
>was perfect in NX2, but needs further processing in LR to get
>close. Now if your file wasn't a perfect exposure, in NX2 you
>are still starting with all your setting in use and you can
>now go in NX2 and actually change the camera settings, staying
>in RAW the whole time and completely process your image with
>just a few quick steps that can be revisited at any time. This
>image and changes and any other versions you create will all
>be saved within the NEF not in side cars like Photoshop does.
>The reason to shoot RAW is that because you are working on a
>12 or 14 bit file non destructively, you can make big changes
>to the file without creating artifacts and if using NX2 have
>total control of all the camera functions after you shoot.

Thanks for the elboration, Bob. I'm slow, so just to clarify. If for example in my camera I set a custom color profile which i believe I have set to Saturation +1, etc. Or if i used the Vivid profile for example. These settings will be applied to the RAW image in NX2? How is sharpening controlled? These settings in the camera I thought were only applied to JPEGs, so it is important that I understand if NX2 is taking these settings into account when it applies its default process on the RAW file. Ie, I don't normally care about these settings because i didnt think they counted in RAW land. But if NX2 is changing this game, then i need to get a lot more involved with my camera's processing settings, eh?

If so, this would also explain why LR's default conversions look so flat. They have none of the camera setting flair applied that NX2 reads and applies. But its a bit moot, even after i added some Vibrance, Sharpening, and Clarity in LR, i still prefered the NX2 image.

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Wed 28-Jan-09 04:27 PM
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#38. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 36


Colorado Springs, US
          

Those settings will indeed be applied to images in NX, which will make things look different. It's easy to get the same effects with presets in LR and have them applied to a whole set of images, whenever you want.

I've done detailed comparisons between the NX Picture Control settings and the new Adobe color profiles. I can't see a difference. I've tried Camera Standard, Portrait, Landscape, etc. No difference.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 04:52 PM
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#39. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 38


Canton, US
          

Rick, you're exactly right. The Nikon software will duplicate the camera's settings by default, while LR will not. That's why the OP sees such a difference between the two. As you noted, you can achieve virtually the same look with LR as you get with NX, it's just a different process path to get there. Once you get that look (or any other you want) just save it as a preset. It really couldn't be simpler in principle.

Another point is that there are literally hundreds of presets for LR available for free downoad from various sources. Some of them are quite interesting and can also be good starting points for developing your own presets.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 05:56 PM
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#40. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 39
Wed 28-Jan-09 06:21 PM by TXBDan

Raleigh, US
          

Gah, this is confusing. I just went and compared a bunch of pics again with the Capture set with all the in camera options set to 0 or Normal.

Its still sharper, especially in the highlights, then LR2. But if i click down the brightness and add soem Recovery, I'm able to get closer to NX2. NX2 has better (or easier to find) skintones for sure. It also seems to excel at finding a proper WB. The camera in Auto WB seems to do a fine job in NX2.

What holds me back is its clunky interface and the complete wrench it'd throw in my LR workflow... what a pain.

I think i'm going to keep playing with pics in LR and try to get them to match NX2 for a bit. Hopefully I can get LR up to par.

If anyone has any setting experiments or anythign they'd like me to try and post up, feel free.


EDIT: I've found that cranking the Recovery in LR2 makes up for 70% of the differences I'm seeing. LR2 by default just blows out a lot of the detail in the highlights. By cranking Recovery up to 85ish I'm starting to see a lot of the detail i see in NX2. Combined with some strong Sharpening in the 50 range, Vibrance and Clarity to 25, Camera Standard profile, I feel like i'm getting close

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fastbike Registered since 02nd Oct 2004Wed 28-Jan-09 06:36 PM
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#41. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 40


Granbury, US
          

Did you get your answer on NX2 and in-camera sharpening settings? If you haven't checked, note that the Picture Control settings have varying amounts of sharpening applied. Dr. Jay's NX2 book recommends moving those sharpening settings back to 0 in NX2 and doing all sharpening in unsharp mask or equivalent.

FWIW, the most irritating thing to me is that LR and NX2 each have some very appealing features. What I want is LR and NX2 combined, along with a real clone tool. That would be photo nirvana for me.

For instance, I really appreciate NX2's use of camera settings and the ability to eliminate a single processing step either by unchecking the box or deleting the step (LR's undo is pathetic by comparison). In LR, besides the whole image management/collections capability, I particularly like the ability to change exposure like the camera, i.e. +/- steps. I also think the local settings brush capability works a bit better than the NX2 equivalent.

"Many look, few see". The Tao of Rau

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 04:04 PM
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#52. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 41


San Jose, US
          

Larry you do know that NX2 also lets you change exposure in +/- steps of EV up to +/- 2 EV right?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Wed 28-Jan-09 07:10 PM
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#42. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 40


Clemmons, US
          

Recovery of 85-ish? Goodness, that seems like an awful lot. Check your Brightness and Contrast values as well as the tone curve. Those may be pushing up the highlights.

If I ever get to a recovery value of 45-45 I start asking myself "what else could be causing this?" or "is this image salvagable?"

BTW, I can't point to it with proof positive, but I have wondered if Nikon software maps the luminance values a little differently than Adobe or others. Everyone has differences.

Good luck which ever way you go.

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Wed 28-Jan-09 09:33 PM
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#43. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 42


Raleigh, US
          

>Recovery of 85-ish? Goodness, that seems like an awful lot.
>Check your Brightness and Contrast values as well as the tone
>curve. Those may be pushing up the highlights.
>
>If I ever get to a recovery value of 45-45 I start asking
>myself "what else could be causing this?" or
>"is this image salvagable?"
>
>BTW, I can't point to it with proof positive, but I have
>wondered if Nikon software maps the luminance values a little
>differently than Adobe or others. Everyone has differences.
>
>Good luck which ever way you go.

Agreed, i normally keep the values under 15-20ish. Interesting is that the LR histogram shows a lot more clipping with this pic than NX2 does. When i apply enouch Recovery in LR to overcome it all, it looks pretty similar to NX2's image.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Wed 28-Jan-09 10:08 PM
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#44. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 43


Colorado Springs, US
          

Make sure you're comparing the equivalent color modes in the two programs. In other words, compare Camera Standard in LR to the Standard setting in NX2. If you compare the Adobe Standard color setting to the Standard setting in NX2, you'll get very different highlights. In the past, I recommended people build in a -0.25 exposure adjustment in their LR defaults to adjust for the difference. It's no longer necessary if you use one of the Picture Control equivalent profiles in LR. I have my camera defaults in LR and ACR set to camera standard, as well as slightly different sharpening parameters (similar to the landscape sharpening preset that Adobe provides), just because that's what I typically like as a starting point. If I have series of photos that are portraits, I apply a preset to them that includes the Camera Portrait color setting, as well as altered sharpening settings optimized for people. It's very easy and quick, and at least for me, far easier than fumbling through camera settings.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 03:48 PM
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#50. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 44


San Jose, US
          

Rick you know that you can take any thing you did in NX2 and make a preset out of it also. I can work on one image in a series and save a particular step or a series of steps and save it as a custom preset or just copy it and apply it to a series of images so LR really has no advantage there. I agree it is nice to have this capability no matter which SW you are using.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Thu 29-Jan-09 09:06 PM
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#58. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 50


Colorado Springs, US
          

I'm very familiar with NX, having used it since well before it originally came on the market. If you compared the process of applying presets to multiple images in both environments, you'd find LR much quicker. I consider that a significant advantage.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 03:03 AM
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#59. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 58


San Jose, US
          

Thanks for the reply

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 03:28 PM
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#48. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 42


San Jose, US
          

Michael I believe I read in Tom Hogans book that they do map lumenance differently.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 03:55 PM
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#51. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 39
Thu 29-Jan-09 04:14 PM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

I think it is time to call a truce. We seem to be going round and round with the same results. Those of you who believe you can get the same results as NX2 with LR and a bit of work and who value that interface I say learn it well and stick to your choice if you have tried a comparison with NX2 and think LR is equal there is no need to fret over it. Those of us who see the value of starting our processing with an image that looks like what we saw in our camera display with no need to tweak it will stay with NX2. Just like our choice of cameras, our choice of post processors is an individual thing. I hope we all learned a bit more about the various options available to us to improve our images.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 03:43 PM
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#49. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 38


San Jose, US
          

Rick can you share how you are making this comparison?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 29-Jan-09 09:10 AM
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#46. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 36


San Jose, US
          

Quinn Since a RAW file consists of a manipulated version of the data hitting the sensor and a file of proprietary tags, it also has a list of steps on how to apply the algorithms and camera settings if they can be read. So what NX2 does is just read the steps and applies them to the RAW data in a non destructive way to display your image. No pixels are harmed or altered in the process. So while they are irrevocably applied to a jpeg, they can be changed at any time in a RAW file on NX2. So lets say you set sharpening in the camera to +2 and you opened the RAW file in NX2. You can now go in and change sharpening to any value you want to apply, any picture control you want or any white balance, etc. You can even change the exposure = or - 2 EV. I change all my sharpening to zero when i open my RAW files and apply a Capture sharpening of my own and then an output sharpening. And next month I can come back to the same file open it and change it again as often as I want. So yes when you open your file in LR since they can only read your WB they will not look as good out of the box. Adobe now has new settings that they say are close to the Nikon settings, that make the image look better, but you still are getting an interpretation of what you set not what you actually set. So now you know why we prefer NX2 ro Adobe ACR.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Thu 29-Jan-09 07:21 PM
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#54. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 46


Raleigh, US
          

I'd like to see more comparisons. Would it make any sense to post up NEFs and let people with both software play with them and post results? I'm sure we'd all be honest enough to do our best with each. We could then point out the differences and where we had trouble with either software, etc.

A picture's worth a thousand words after all.

Also, maybe the folks who have found good LR2 presets could share?

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Thu 29-Jan-09 07:40 PM
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#56. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 54


CA
          

I'm not sure that this test would really mean anything...simply because it's merely a 'subjective' based comparison.

NX2 produces the most accurate intended NEF enterpretation of the data - however, that doesn't mean that people will actually prefer this result. Too many other factors come into play here.

Hey, I've even known some folks to actually prefer a digital modeller enterpretation of a Soldano 100W amp tone over the "real" thing!!!





Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005Thu 29-Jan-09 08:27 PM
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#57. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 56


Apollo, US
          

>I'm not sure that this test would really mean
>anything...simply because it's merely a 'subjective' based
>comparison.
>
>NX2 produces the most accurate intended NEF enterpretation of
>the data - however, that doesn't mean that people will
>actually prefer this result. Too many other factors come into
>play here.
>
>Hey, I've even known some folks to actually prefer a digital
>modeller enterpretation of a Soldano 100W amp tone over the
>"real" thing!!!
>
Really, after numerous posts on this subject, it is clear that in the end, it is simply a matter of preference. To each his own. This is starting to sound like an Apple v Windows, Nikon v Canon thread. Man the fort! The Goths are at the gates, whatever you do, hold fast and do not give an inch!
>
>
>
>
>

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 03:29 AM
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#60. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 57


Raleigh, US
          

Just when i was getting ok results again out of LR and leaning that way, i run another batch of people under tungsten light and i just can't get LR to match NX2's sharpness. NX2 also has far superior high iso noise reduction built in and the WB came out great automatically and the skin tones look great. I had to struggle in LR to get a good WB (basically looked at the NX2 file and copied it) and the skin tones still look like ####.

As a relative novice, I don't think i have the experience and skills to squeeze the results out of LR2. I was happy and didn't even know better until i tried NX2. Now that i have a target to shoot for, I'm struggling to make it happen in LR2.

I know this post doesnt help anyone, i'm just venting. I have no freaking idea how to incorporate NX2 into my LR library. Having every file saved in LR as a TIFF will be huge...

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 03:42 AM
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#61. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 60
Fri 30-Jan-09 06:44 AM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

I don't see the problem...quit using LR and use NX2

I really don't understand this mentality of comparing different software programmes...just simply use the prog that gives one the most favoured end results...and don't look back.

It's just like tube amp tone...
I don't spend hours n hours on a Marshall Plexi trying like mad to make it sound like a Mesa Boogie.

I simply use the Mesa.

NX2 interprets NEFs the way Nikon intended them to be read...coz it's their technology, so they know it better than anyone else...IF that's good enuff for you - use it, and forget trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole.

I just took this flower shot about 15 mins ago...D300 NEF to NX2...it took me all of 3 mins to process and create the jet-black designer background using the selection control points. The colour rendition is absolutely spot on...it looks exactly the same as the bloom itself.

http://kvincent.zenfolio.com/p332451180/h228160c#h228160c

Now, how simple is that

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 03:43 AM
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#62. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 60


Clemmons, US
          

You might need a different catalog application then. Or maybe you catalog high quality JPEGs in LR to save space and generate TIFFs only for follow on Photoshop work or high quality printing? In some cases you could delete the printing TIFFs and others since they are temporary. Only big layer, noise reduction, cloning, etc work in PS would make you think about keeping them.

I'm just thinking out loud to see if anything would help you.

I bet in many cases the non-destructive tweak of a 100 quality JPEG from NX2 would be good enough for may applications, small prints, etc.

I hope this helps in some small way,
Michael

PS -- my personal experience shows that (for my use) LR or ACR are more divergent from NX2 as you get more differences from the two profiled white balance (tungsten and daylight) values Adobe reportedly uses for their profiles. I have not done rigorous testing to prove this to myself or anyone else. Just an observation-based hypothesis I don't have time to validate.

  

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 03:54 AM
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#63. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 62


Raleigh, US
          

Yeh. I'm all for using NX2 for conversions. What holds me back is that its not the complete workflow solution that i've been using LR as. If i continute to use LR for it's library, It'll be rather ugly with a bunch of tiffs and importing/exporting things everywhere. In fact, if i choose to only use something for it's library, i might even use Aperture since it plays nice with iPhoto and other Mac apps. So i'm trying to weigh the value of doing it all in one app against the value of the IQ improvement. I'm also at home in LR and NX2 is pretty clunky to me right now. So i know only i can come to a conclusion, again, just thinking out loud

Also, for kicks i just ran the same batch through Apple Aperture 2. Interestingly the pics looked very much like LR2's. Same WB and skin tone issues. They were off the same exact way. So indeed, there seems to be some Nikon secret sauce in there.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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rwboyerjr Registered since 23rd Jul 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 04:29 AM
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#64. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 63
Fri 30-Jan-09 04:32 AM by rwboyerjr

US
          

The acid test has proven - no really secret sauce.

Just kidding here is the world's most difficult NEF to process if you are interested in reproducing skin tones, I am pretty finicky.

Your mileage may vary...

http://photo.rwboyer.com/2008/12/aperture-2-and-nef-raw-recipies/

The reason this was/is my acid test is this was the age of the encrypted WB - what a wonderful idea, thanks. Seriously the D2h was a bear in anything but Capture, all of my new cameras are easy.

RB

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 06:15 AM
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#65. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 60


San Jose, US
          

Dan LR guys can correct me if i am wrong, but I think you can process your NEF in NX2 and then just save the NEF in your LR library. As far as i know LR does not see nor touch the changes you made to the NEF in NX2 and as long as you don't make any more changes in LR, your NEF will be intact,

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 09:46 AM
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#66. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 65


Canton, US
          

I think you are correct in that. But that still keeps the issue of having to juggle two quite different programs.

To add another wrench in the mix, many photographers swear by Phase One's Capture One for the most pleasing and accurate skin tone conversions. Who is right? It all comes down to perception and personal preference.

It's interesting that much of Lightroom's technology comes from yet a different program called RAW Shooter, which Adobe bought out. Many photographers thought it gave the best conversion quality.

There's also the issue of the end product: if we quibble about subtle differences in tone and saturation, how does this translate to the final print, where there is a whole new set of variables in addition to what we see on the computer monitor?

Here's how I see it:

1. NX gives you the quickest path to the subtle qualities of an image that matches Nikon's intentions. Whether that is better or most accurate is a matter of personal preference.

2. Lightroom allows you to come pretty darned close to the above with enough tweaking, and once you're satisfied you can save that preset forever. But you aren't limited to just the "Nikon look," you can get just about any "look" in the same way. And it really can't be argued that LR is much superior to NX with regard to workflow and managing an image library.

3. At the end of the day it is just a matter of what looks good to us. If we think that only NX can do what we want, then NX is the only program we should use. If we are satisfied with what LR can do, then there is no need to add another program into the mix.

If we are unsatisfied with individual aspects of the conversion, such as noise reduction or sharpening quality, there are third party progams available that do a better job of these than either LR or NX.



Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 04:52 PM
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#67. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 66


SE
          

I still haven't tried NX extensively, but I'd agree with you on this

>Here's how I see it:
>
>1. NX gives you the quickest path to the subtle qualities of
>an image that matches Nikon's intentions. Whether that is
>better or most accurate is a matter of personal preference.
>
>2. Lightroom allows you to come pretty darned close to the
>above with enough tweaking, and once you're satisfied you can
>save that preset forever. But you aren't limited to just the
>"Nikon look," you can get just about any
>"look" in the same way. And it really can't be
>argued that LR is much superior to NX with regard to workflow
>and managing an image library.
>
>3. At the end of the day it is just a matter of what looks
>good to us. If we think that only NX can do what we want,
>then NX is the only program we should use. If we are
>satisfied with what LR can do, then there is no need to add
>another program into the mix.
>
>If we are unsatisfied with individual aspects of the
>conversion, such as noise reduction or sharpening quality,
>there are third party progams available that do a better job
>of these than either LR or NX.

What I really dislike, is that Nikon refuses to release the proprietary information about the NEFs. C shooters will get the programs (Nikon shooters have to pay for Capture control as well) for free. That alone almost made me choose C.

___________________________________

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TXBDan Registered since 23rd Sep 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 05:04 PM
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#68. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 67


Raleigh, US
          

>I still haven't tried NX extensively, but I'd agree with you
>on this
>
>>Here's how I see it:
>>
>>1. NX gives you the quickest path to the subtle qualities
>of
>>an image that matches Nikon's intentions. Whether that
>is
>>better or most accurate is a matter of personal
>preference.
>>
>>2. Lightroom allows you to come pretty darned close to
>the
>>above with enough tweaking, and once you're satisfied you
>can
>>save that preset forever. But you aren't limited to just
>the
>>"Nikon look," you can get just about any
>>"look" in the same way. And it really can't be
>>argued that LR is much superior to NX with regard to
>workflow
>>and managing an image library.
>>
>>3. At the end of the day it is just a matter of what
>looks
>>good to us. If we think that only NX can do what we
>want,
>>then NX is the only program we should use. If we are
>>satisfied with what LR can do, then there is no need to
>add
>>another program into the mix.
>>
>>If we are unsatisfied with individual aspects of the
>>conversion, such as noise reduction or sharpening
>quality,
>>there are third party progams available that do a better
>job
>>of these than either LR or NX.
>
>What I really dislike, is that Nikon refuses to release the
>proprietary information about the NEFs. C shooters will get
>the programs (Nikon shooters have to pay for Capture control
>as well) for free. That alone almost made me choose C.

I'm not sure if its true, but I've read that Nikon actually released an SDK, but Adobe didn't want to use it.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 05:17 PM
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#69. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 68
Fri 30-Jan-09 05:28 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

Nikon told me that they offer any 3rd party their SDK engine for free...Adobe chose not to use it.

I love free enterprise n all...but when you consider that Nikon is the top global DSLR manufacturer, and Photoshop is the top photo editing software programme...I think that there should be some kind of international economic 'legislation' that forces huge companies like this to share/impliment technologies for the good of the end consumer.

After all, business exists soley for the people...and not the other way around.

How would we feel IF two medicine based companies wouldn't cooperate 100% properly...which then resulted in a silly competitive race towards a cancer treatment. When if they had worked together the cure would come a lot sooner.

People would be up in arms over something like that.

KEV

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 06:27 PM
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#72. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 69


Canton, US
          

>
>After all, business exists soley for the people...and not the
>other way around.
>

Unfortunately, rightly or wrongly, that really isn't true. In a free economy, business exists solely for the purpose of making a profit. (Unless they are controlled by a government that limits the profit they can make and dictates how much they can produce... but that is socialism.) The more successful they are at making products and services that meet the needs of people, the more profit they make. But Nikon could choose to drop out of the camera business tomorrow if they wanted to, and have no obligation whatsoever to their customer base.

Just look at what Canon did to their loyal customer base when they trashed the FD lens mount for the new EOS system. They did that because they saw more profit potential with the new system even though they created a small group of disgruntled users in the process.

I know this is off topic, but it also applies to the NX vs LR discussion. Software companies have the same goals, which is to produce a product that will attract the most customers so they can make the most money. Nikon makes more money by selling their software instead of giving it away with their cameras. They will do that as long as people continue to buy it.

(Of course, Adobe makes a hefty profit, too... but they do offer very substantial academic discounts if you qualify.)



Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 06:49 PM
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#75. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 72
Fri 30-Jan-09 06:52 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>Unfortunately, rightly or wrongly, that really isn't true. In
>a free economy, business exists solely for the purpose of
>making a profit. (Unless they are controlled by a government
>that limits the profit they can make and dictates how much
>they can produce... but that is socialism.)

As a European I prefer bigger GOVT controls and/or legislation.
To me, business doesn't exist solely to make a profit...but as an integral social instrument to maintain the economic flow...and ultimately sustain our human livelihood, etc.

And yes, I also think that big business has a 'responsibility' to society to provide WHAT the consumers want and need. After all, we humans are social based creatures, we need a collective system to successfully survive and flourish.

Crass capitalism, in reality...is no more than a corporate owned dictatorship.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005Fri 30-Jan-09 07:33 PM
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#77. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 75


Apollo, US
          

>>As a European I prefer bigger GOVT controls and/or
>legislation.

Yea, right! We are from the government and we are here to help you.
Hardly.
Nikon spent money and R&D time to continually improve software. Canon put out this crappy little piece of freeware and really made no effort to improve it. Why should they, it was free.
Nikon got smart, partnered with NIK and put out a nice piece of software. Apparently good enough to fuel the endless discussion that has been going on here. Half of the complaints about software come from people trying to run a Formula One race with the family jalopy.
LightRoom got themselves lost in the world of storage and batch processing. The image process was an afterthough. It appears that Adobe originally planned to have Light Room as a gateway to Photoshop. When Adobe realized that they were losing market share to other image programs they began to improve lightroom. Unless you have a serious need for batch processing and do not mind the LR quirky filing system, if you have a Nikon, you are far better off with NX2. Let alone the bloated and overdone piece of software that Photo Shop has become. But, that is my opinion from my experience.
And you know what they say about opinions and there certainly are a lot of them here.

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 07:41 PM
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#80. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 77


CA
          

>>>As a European I prefer bigger GOVT controls and/or
>>legislation.
>
>Yea, right! We are from the government and we are here to help
>you.
>Hardly.


I've lived in the USA (and travelled around your country a lot)...and I noticed that Americans seem to harbour both this underlying fear and distrust towards their govt. By comparison, Europeans, Canadians, Brits, etc. don't hold the same kind of paranoia mindset.

Yes, I much prefer bigger government, rather than small...and I've lived in several different countries...so I've experienced the different approaches.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 07:53 PM
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#82. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 80


SE
          

>>>>As a European I prefer bigger GOVT controls
>and/or
>>>legislation.
>>
>>Yea, right! We are from the government and we are here to
>help
>>you.
>>Hardly.
>
>
>I've lived in the USA (and travelled around your country a
>lot)...and I noticed that Americans seem to harbour both this
>underlying fear and distrust towards their govt. By
>comparison, Europeans, Canadians, Brits, etc. don't hold the
>same kind of paranoia mindset.

I agree. It even got so absurd here that you let companies decide what is good for you. But as stated, companies have one goal - to make money. Just look at how advertisement for kids are controlled here, or how the medical bill helps all Americans to stay healthy...

Sure, we are big multi-national companies that are here for you - thus, to help you spend the money so our big fri--ing CEO and board can get a nice bonus even when they mess up big time (think our global financial crisis), while you get to spend 20 hours of your time with our great, out-sourced support.

___________________________________

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 08:00 PM
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#84. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 80


Canton, US
          

>I've lived in the USA (and travelled around your country a
>lot)...and I noticed that Americans seem to harbour both this
>underlying fear and distrust towards their govt. By
>comparison, Europeans, Canadians, Brits, etc. don't hold the
>same kind of paranoia mindset.

It isn't paranoia on our part, just the way we look at things. History has abundant examples of governments that indeed cannot be trusted to do the right thing. In fact, the very founding of our country was a response to the many abuses of His Majesty's government toward its colonies. If our government does things we don't like, we have the opportunity to kick them out every few years. Warts and all, the system has worked very well, and still is the model for democracy around the world.

But regardless of the role of government in business, if a company isn't making a profit it isn't going to survive. It can only limp along on the backs of the taxpayers for so long.

The ideal goal of American government is to create an environment where business and individuals can thrive to their best potential. The ideal goal of most European government is to force business and individuals to fit a mold defined by and limited by the whims of that government. I know that's an over-generalization, and neither system is perfect.

So what you see in your observations of America is that we cherish our freedom to choose our destiny rather than be nourished by the State from cradle to grave. Call it the frontier spirit, but it's part of our heritage as a nation that was created out of a wilderness in a relatively short period of time.

But I digress...

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 08:21 PM
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#88. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 84


SE
          

>>I've lived in the USA (and travelled around your country
>a
>>lot)...and I noticed that Americans seem to harbour both
>this
>>underlying fear and distrust towards their govt. By
>>comparison, Europeans, Canadians, Brits, etc. don't hold
>the
>>same kind of paranoia mindset.
>
>It isn't paranoia on our part, just the way we look at things.

Yes, that is why e.g. Ford and Chrysler thought big cars were DA s...t. Look at things now... A great achievement... (btw, in this case, I think car and oil companies have put their heads together. not to create something better for people, but for them to make more money. Backfired apparently. Who pays for that?)

> History has abundant examples of governments that indeed
>cannot be trusted to do the right thing. In fact, the very
>founding of our country was a response to the many abuses of
>His Majesty's government toward its colonies. If our
>government does things we don't like, we have the opportunity
>to kick them out every few years. Warts and all, the system
>has worked very well, and still is the model for democracy
>around the world.

this model has not worked well. IF that were the case, why is there a huge need for all these desperate measures to save the big car companies, banks etc. Who has to pay? Not the companies or the people on the boards that were supposed to be "responsible" for it (that is why they payed so much).

>But regardless of the role of government in business, if a
>company isn't making a profit it isn't going to survive. It
>can only limp along on the backs of the taxpayers for so
>long.

We'll see. Go Chrysler...
>The ideal goal of American government is to create an
>environment where business and individuals can thrive to their
>best potential. The ideal goal of most European government is
>to force business and individuals to fit a mold defined by and
>limited by the whims of that government. I know that's an
>over-generalization, and neither system is perfect.
>
>So what you see in your observations of America is that we
>cherish our freedom to choose our destiny rather than be
>nourished by the State from cradle to grave. Call it the
>frontier spirit, but it's part of our heritage as a nation
>that was created out of a wilderness in a relatively short
>period of time.

I know this. It's like Matrix, right...

>But I digress...

Me too

___________________________________

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 08:33 PM
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#89. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 84


CA
          

>>I've lived in the USA (and travelled around your country
>a
>>lot)...and I noticed that Americans seem to harbour both
>this
>>underlying fear and distrust towards their govt. By
>>comparison, Europeans, Canadians, Brits, etc. don't hold
>the
>>same kind of paranoia mindset.
>
>It isn't paranoia on our part, just the way we look at things.

I understand your position (as I've had this discussion a thousand times - of course ...however, to a non American...that kind of outlook is rather paranoid.

As a BRIT I was raised and grew up to trust my govt. Of course nobody thought that they were perfect...but, in the UK there was never ever a feeling that Govt was something one should fear or be against in general.

The same applies here in Canada where i live at the moment. Canuks basically trust their govt to handle the important social issues and administer related programs, etc. Sure, we may complain about certain things (Of course)...but there's NEVER this issue of looking at the govt they way in which Americans often do.

Another example is the GUN issue...I would never ever want firearms to be be legal, or to be able to buy one. I don't believe that ordinary citizens should ever be allowed to own a weapon - period. I'd much rather let the police/military take care of local security in that regard. Here in Canada, we have a very low murder rate - simply because hand guns are not legal.

And I say this - having lived in Israel for many years where all citizens own guns and we carried them on a daily basis.

I actually left the USA, simply because it wasn't socialistic enough in it's outlook for me...(My brother lives in Florida and often asks me if I'll ever move back)...but I find your social setup way too harsh in many respects. I think collectively, and not so individualistic.

No offence meant - that pioneer stuff just isn't my bag.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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michael1778 Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 06:33 PM
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#73. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 69


Clemmons, US
          

That kind of competitive situation exists all over the pharmaceutical industry today. No riots yet. Not saying there shouldn't be, but redundant pharma research is a fact of life today.

How many anti-depressants of the same drug development "generation" do we really need? Acid Reflux? ED? Asthma? Etc., etc......

Back to photography, I'm very puzzled why Nikon elected to encrypt their white balance in the NEF while other major vendors (Canon, Pentax, Olympus) don't. Nikon saying they offer the SDK to anyone as a way to excuse that behavior is a little weak to me.

  

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 06:42 PM
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#74. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 73
Fri 30-Jan-09 06:42 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>That kind of competitive situation exists all over the
>pharmaceutical industry today. No riots yet. Not saying
>there shouldn't be, but redundant pharma research is a fact of
>life today.


I fully recognize that there is a lot of competition within the marketplace, etc...but how would the public react IF two major companies withheld cooperation which ultimately lead to the 'prevention' of a common cancer cure.

That was my point.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 07:38 PM
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#79. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 74
Fri 30-Jan-09 07:39 PM by lofling

SE
          

>I fully recognize that there is a lot of competition within
>the marketplace, etc...but how would the public react IF two
>major companies withheld cooperation which ultimately lead to
>the 'prevention' of a common cancer cure.
>
>That was my point.

That will only happen if the companies think they both can win, or if they are desperate enough. Like Sony and Ericson.

But what could the public say? In a free market, companies don't have to cooperate...

And a common cancer cure will never be available, IMO. Cancer is far more complicated and multi-faceted than most people think.

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 07:52 PM
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#81. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 79
Fri 30-Jan-09 07:53 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

Maybe not, but I was simply using it as a comparative analogy.

Personally, I think that companies SHOULD be made to cooperate...for the good of humanity...this non-compliance is one area were the free market system is very negative.

Look at where we are now with the OIL/alternative fuel issue - simply coz BIG CORP has ruled the roost for the past 50 years.

Not to mention the current financial crisis.

Nikon & Adobe should be locked in a room together and told to get their collective act together
And they can't come out until they do.

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 07:56 PM
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#83. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 81


SE
          

>Maybe not, but I was simply using it as a comparative
>analogy.
>
>Personally, I think that companies SHOULD be made to
>cooperate...for the good of humanity...this non-compliance is
>one area were the free market system is very negative.
>
>Look at where we are now with the OIL/alternative fuel issue -
>simply coz BIG CORP has ruled the roost for the past 50
>years.
>
>Not to mention the current financial crisis.
>
>Nikon & Adobe should be locked in a room together and told
>to get their collective act together
>And they can't come out until they do.

Sorry, now we agree!

This thread is supposed to be on NX2 vs LR. Sorry, I got carried away. But this whole cr@p about free market and companies solving things just makes me so angry. Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't work, but neither does communism. Pick your poison...

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 08:06 PM
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#85. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 83
Fri 30-Jan-09 08:07 PM by Kevzphoto

CA
          

>
>Sorry, now we agree!
>
>This thread is supposed to be on NX2 vs LR. Sorry, I got
>carried away. But this whole cr@p about free market and
>companies solving things just makes me so angry.
>Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't work, but neither does
>communism. Pick your poison...

I like a free market system...with an approrpiate amount of GOVT administration to ensure that ALL citizens enjoy a decent level of social services, education, healthcare, etc.

Yes, it comes with a price...ie: taxes, but I'm fully willing to pay a little more at the pump or wherever...in order to provide ALL citizens with the necessary fundamentals that make life decent.

WE need to find the middle ground.

You Yanks just voted for "change" - so now go DO IT!

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 09:08 PM
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#90. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 85


SE
          

>>
>>Sorry, now we agree!
>>
>>This thread is supposed to be on NX2 vs LR. Sorry, I got
>>carried away. But this whole cr@p about free market and
>>companies solving things just makes me so angry.
>>Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't work, but neither does
>>communism. Pick your poison...
>
>I like a free market system...with an approrpiate amount of
>GOVT administration to ensure that ALL citizens enjoy a decent
>level of social services, education, healthcare, etc.
>
>Yes, it comes with a price...ie: taxes, but I'm fully willing
>to pay a little more at the pump or wherever...in order to
>provide ALL citizens with the necessary fundamentals that make
>life decent.
>
>WE need to find the middle ground.
>
>You Yanks just voted for "change" - so now go DO IT!
>

Sorry, I am not an American. I don't like to pay taxes, but I am I do like the fact that there aren't so many home-less people where I come from. Also, even studying at the University is basically for free. You have to pay about $40 per semester, which some think is too much.

We also get 400 days of parental leave (80 % of your salary). And child care costs max $200 per month (roughly, don't know exactly).

I just happen to live in SoCal. It is nice as long as you are educated and have a good job. As opposed to about 50 % of the population in this country. Their salary is around $8 per hour...

___________________________________

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 08:20 PM
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#87. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 83


Canton, US
          

I also believe Nikon and Adobe should cooperate. There is no good reason why Nikon can't have the option on their cameras to save RAW files in the open-sourced DNG format. Leica and Pentax already do. IMO it's wrong to have a proprietary RAW format, why not have it universal like JPEG is universal?

But should they be "forced to" by government regulation? Heck no. Government has a sad track record of messing up what they get their hands too deeply into. A big part of the current economic situation was the government either forcing or strongly encouraging banks to make very risky loans to people who couldn't pay them back. Between the greed of banks and the greed of politicians getting generous campaign donations things got quite out of control. Virtually all history shows that if allowed, government's main priority becomes to perpetuate itself, not provide for the good of the people.

Put government in charge of software and we'll just have a government program: big, bloated, expensive and inefficient. Even with its excesses, capitalism has raised the standard of living of more people than socialism ever has.

If the Japanese government were to dictate what their camera companies should make, there would be no competition between Canon and Nikon, and we would not have nearly as good cameras as we have today.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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lofling Registered since 19th Jun 2008Fri 30-Jan-09 07:20 PM
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#76. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 73


SE
          

>That kind of competitive situation exists all over the
>pharmaceutical industry today.

That is what I was about to post.
>No riots yet. Not saying
>there shouldn't be, but redundant pharma research is a fact of
>life today.

As a researcher, I say there should be. There would be a riot if tax payers and donors knew how much of their money is spent on redundant research and just stupid things.

>How many anti-depressants of the same drug development
>"generation" do we really need? Acid Reflux? ED?
>Asthma? Etc., etc......

This all relates to how much companies are allowed to control. The US model is to not have governmental interference. As Reagan stated - the Government is the problem.

Well, look at the banks how well they managed to use the free market.

>Back to photography, I'm very puzzled why Nikon elected to
>encrypt their white balance in the NEF while other major
>vendors (Canon, Pentax, Olympus) don't. Nikon saying they
>offer the SDK to anyone as a way to excuse that behavior is a
>little weak to me.

I agree. And it puzzles me that if Nikon offered Adobe information for free, why did Adobe choose not to use that info?

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Kevzphoto Registered since 14th Jan 2009Fri 30-Jan-09 07:34 PM
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#78. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 76


CA
          

>The US model is to not have governmental interference. As
>Reagan stated - the Government is the problem.
>
>Well, look at the banks how well they managed to use the free
>market.


I'd much rather have my GOVT in control of major social based organizations (ie: healthcare, banking, education, military, social services, etc)...than some private corp who's only primary interest is shareholder profits.

Extreme free enterprise simply creates the same corrupted pittfalls that any dictatoral system would.

GOVT is an integral part of democracy, as it's the voice "of the people"...and IF implimented properly...is the best way to operate a social based mechanism.

AS we can all recently see - GOVT must have administrative controls - otherwise the CORPS just run amok (or is that amuck

Using only NIKON equipment since 1973
"Master your tools, or they will become the Master of you"

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 30-Jan-09 08:08 PM
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#86. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 78


Colorado Springs, US
          

There's been a long string of non-photographic topics, especially political ones, which are not part of the intent of this site. Let's get back to photography, please.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 30-Jan-09 10:19 PM
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#91. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 86


Colorado Springs, US
          

I don't care for locking threads, but since this continues to head in a political direction, it's now locked.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 06:13 PM
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#71. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 67


Canton, US
          

When I bought my D200 I had to pay extra for Capture 4.4 .... that really irked me (I may have posted some rants about that somewhere on Nikonians at the time..) While the program did a good job of dealing with NEFs, it was a real bear to work with and slower than anything I'd ever used. NX was an improvement, but it cost even more money.

I tried Lightroom when it was first released and haven't looked back. IMO it was well worth the purchase price because it combined the funcionality of several programs into one, and did them all very well. Each upgrade of LR has been even better. Of course, NX has improved with time as well, but once using the total workflow approach of LR I don't miss it. That isn't a knock of NX or those who prefer to use it by any means, but I really don't believe that you have to use NX to get the best results from our cameras.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 30-Jan-09 05:37 PM
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#70. "RE: NX2 vs Lightroom"
In response to Reply # 66


San Jose, US
          

Steve this may shock you but we are in agreement. In the end it is what tool you aer comfortable with that meets your needs that counts.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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