NEF files degraded in CS3?
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#1. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 0
b2martin_a Registered since 10th Jan 2007Mon 16-Jul-07 07:41 AMThe in camera settings are not read by ACR (Adobe Camera RAW), only software from the camera vendor reads the in camera settings. Where this information is stored is not documented, so no second party software can read it. This is probably why you see a difference in RAW images converted using the Nikon plugin versus Adobe ACR.
You can determine what settings you want in ACR and save a new default for your camera. When you save them, they will only apply to the camera model that took the image, so if you have several cameras you will have to save a new default for each.
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#2. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 1
Thanks for that insight. I just tried a little test on the theory. I made my camera settings all normal on the D200. I took a photo and imported it into CS3 and also into the trial version of Capture NX. If your theory is correct, then the images should look identical on the same screen. Well, almost. They looked very similar - much more so than my attempts with camera-altered images. The colours were slightly different, with Capture NX producing a slightly yellow hue. What surprised me most, however, was that CS3 came up with a slightly sharper image. It was as though Adobe preferred the image to Nikon's own Capture. Anyway, I now realise I can continue to use Photoshop CS3 without any Nikon Plugin, as long as I shoot normal and don't try any in-camera enhancements. I can then do the enhancing in CS3. But what my trials have proven is that, if you attempt to do in-camera enhancing on a Nikon camera, and then import the images into CS3, they don't come out as a NORMAL image - that is, it's not just that CS3 only reads the basic file sans enhancements - it actually degrades the file somehow. Because when I try and import a camera-enhanced file into CS3 the end result is much worse than an image shot normal in the same camera.
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#3. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 2
So, here's another question for you clever Nikonians. Which of the in-camera alterations are considered by Adobe Photoshop CS3 to be unreadable alterations? For example, if I set my camera on High ISO Noise Reduction, will this be read by CS3's ACR system? If I choose Image Sharpening, will this be read by CS3? What about things like Colour Mode? I don't want my images to be degraded (the way they were when I tried shooting VIVID) and imported into CS3 (via Adobe's ACR converter which changes NEF images into Adobe Raw images), but I do want to be able to use some functions on my D200 - which is, after all, one of the reasons I bought the damn thing. I'd like to be able to reduce noise, increase sharpening, and set the colour mode, without having to buy Capture NX to read it all. Let me point out that I need to be able to export images from Photoshop because they need to be read by the lab that does my printing (who operate with Adobe) and the layout artist (who uses Adobe), and myself (using Adobe InDesign etc). Nikon need to realise that Adobe is an indisputable industry standard, and not providing a Plugin for CS3 (presumably to try and force people to buy/use Capture) is going to force professionals away from Nikon and towards Canon. It's crazy if Nikon expect people to go through two different systems (e.g. downloading into Capture NX, then exporting into CS3) just to interface with other professional services.
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#4. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 3
b2martin_a Registered since 10th Jan 2007Tue 17-Jul-07 11:04 PMThe only parameters that ACR reads from NEF files(CS, CS2, CS3) is white balance and this is not 100% correct since Adobe had to back engineer how to read it. All other parameters you set in your camera (saturation, sharpness, noise reduction, color mode, etc) are only read by Nikon's RAW converter software and the in camera processing software. This is not unique to Nikon, but most if not all camera vendors. I think this is a major negative factor for anyone who wants to process RAW files. Software from the camera vendor is not in the same league as software like Photoshop when you need to process large numbers of images. I tried Capture NX trial software and it's totally unacceptable in the speed category.
The Nikon Plugin that you used in CS2 does not have all the capability of ACR. It does have the capability to read in camera settings. If this is what you want, you need to use Capture NX instead of Photoshop.
Adobe has saved default values for all cameras that are supported by the RAW coverter, but you can change this to anything you want. If you use the RAW converter in Photoshop, you should assume that any settings you set in the D200 will only apply to JPG images from the camera. You can modify the ACR settings to output images with the characteristics you want and save a new default. You can also save several as presets and apply these to single or multiple images in ACR. These won't match the in camera images, but the goal of any settings is to get images that are acceptable to you - dosen't matter if these were from in camera or in ACR settings.
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#5. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 4
Xopher Registered since 25th May 2003Wed 18-Jul-07 06:53 AMThis is partially correct. Nikon cameras apply some of the settings to the raw data. The Raw data stored is not truly completely Raw. The camera's white balance setting changes the way the raw data is stored in the camera. It is documented as such and is also one of the reason Adobe had to take a while to reverse-engineer the NEF format.
I'm sure the noise reduction settings are also applied to the raw data before storing since I can see a difference between raw images in ACR and LightRoom when High-ISO noise reduction is turned on. Some camera settings are definitely being applied to the Raw data within the camera.
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#6. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 5
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Wed 18-Jul-07 09:32 AMTony, Robert and Xopher,
Boy am I disappointed, I am discovering the same things as Tony - I use Adobe 1998 srgb because I like to shoot flowers with green stems and bright vibrant blooms. I have definitely noticed my saturation of my images of NEF files in ACR are way down, from what I had used and observed in Nikon Capture 4.4 prior to my CS3 purchase(I have not upgraded to NX, it was my choice to bite the bullet and pay 3 times more for Adobe CS3, more power). This is so disappointing, to fully realize now that my images from nefs are losing their bright colors and maybe other in camera settings that I have set and which I set for a reason, as Tony. Gosh, I guess I need to do one of two things:
1. Do as Robert suggested and set up some custom defaults in Adobe Camera Raw so that my nefs (shot using Adobe color space) will be "cooked" in ACR to reflect the colors and effects that I set in camera. I do use other settings, such as srgb and portrait mode when I shoot faces and skin, so I would need a different custom set of settings in ACR to process those nefs for portraits.
OR, choice 2:
2. Use Nikon Capture 4.4 to "cook" my nef raw files and immediately save them all as tiffs, and then operate on them in CS3 as tiffs.
Lordy. I am seeing exactly what Tony states here,
Debra
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#7. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 6
kjrslr Registered since 19th Jul 2003Wed 18-Jul-07 09:00 PMDebra,
Don't be too down on ACR just yet. You might want to get a copy of Bruce Frazer's book "Adobe Camera Raw with Photoshop CS(2)" or wait until Jeff Schewe updates it for CS3 later this summer. When this first came out it answered a lot of questions about ACR and how to work with it. It is not a difficult book to read but will help you realise the potential of ACR.
The destination is our goal but it’s the journey that educates us.
KeithR
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#8. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 7
Hmmm KJRSLR (nice moniker!), sounds like just another purchase to me. Trouble is that there's a big difference between CS2 & CS3 - that being the Nikon NEF LE Plugin operates on CS2 but not CS3. So buying a book about CS2 is not helpful. And waiting for a new book to come out in the hope it might help resolve the issue is much like waiting for Nikon to produce a Plugin for CS3 - a bit like hanging jelly from the ceiling. I don't have the time to wait. I need to sort the problem now because I have clients depending on my work. As Deb points out, it's very tedious to have to create a whole lot of different settings for ACR for each idealised camera-setting. I mean, what's the point of Nikon providing all these wonderful in-camera alternatives if they can't be read on the industry standard for digital post-production? Go and look at the list of cameras that Adobe list as interfacing with CS3 - there's plenty of Canons, and only one meesly Nikon (the D40). Hey Deb, how about you join us folk lobbying Nikon to create a new Plugin for CS3? From the above, it seems like no-one really knows which in-camera settings are genuinely read by ACR. The Nikon boffins are keeping quiet about it, that's for sure.
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#9. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 8
Oh yeah, and Deb, the trouble I see with "cooking" your images in ACR to suit camera settings is it all depends what base you are starting from as to what you end up with. If you have your camera set on Vivid, for example, and then import into ACR, from my experience it will end up not just non-vivid, but less saturated than Normal. In other words, you'll be trying to inject saturation into a desaturated image. If you shoot on Normal and then import into ACR, at least you're starting from a base with better colour saturation and range, because it hasn't been degraded by ACR. So I don't see the point in trying to make ACR alter an image - why not just open it in photoshop CS3 and use the saturation, hue, selective colour, shadow/highlight functions etc to get the right result? Let me know how you get on, please. (By the way, I'm having trouble with CS3's patch tool - it won't operate on 100% opacity, even if it's set for it. - And no, I don't have the transparency button ticked. - Anyone else experiencing this?)
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#10. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 9
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Thu 19-Jul-07 02:33 PMThanks Keith and Tony, again. I will lobby Nikon on this issue via email and a letter with a stamp. I still have CS2 loaded so I think I will see if I can tell the difference. I am not sure I have the Nikon le plug in loaded for CS2 that Tony mentioned, I do not see it. Where would I get it? I guess Adobe has this for free on their website.
EDIT: I am not at all sure that my Adobe Camera Raw has the Nikon plug in- I have upgraded to the latest ACR 4.1, but how does one know if one is using the latest algorithm in CS3 for say, a D200 camera raw file??? How would I know?
Also, I compared an image file, opened in Nikon Capture 4.4, saved it w no changes as a tiff. Opened same image in CS3, then opened original unchanged NEF file, same image, made no changes in ACR, and opened it in CS3 also, and compared the two images on screen(my monitor is hardware calibrated). I had to increase saturation up to 40 to match closely what my tiff file from NC 4.4 had on it.
What are we to do? I'm really disappointed to realize these issues. I shoot in Adobe 1998 for a reason - I like the saturation.
Debra
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#11. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 10
There's really nothing magical about the NEF plugin. You'll get exactly the same results by, e.g., opening the NEF in the free Nikon View editor (supports all Nikon cameras up to the D200) or in Picture Project (supports all Nikon cameras), saving the result as a tiff, and opening the tiff in Photoshop. The plugin just gives you a convenient way of doing this without saving an intermediate file, along with a couple of very limited raw adjustments.
Note that the Nikon NEF plugin can't be downloaded from Adobe (they have their own Adobe Camera Raw plugin, which doesn't give identical default results but has much more control). The NEF plugin is only installed when you (a) have an existing Photoshop installation, and (b) install a Nikon package like Nikon View, Picture Project, or Capture 4.x - it's the Nikon software that 'helpfully' installs the NEF plugin, overriding ACR (often without asking).
Note also that's there's more than one type of Nikon NEF plugin. Nikon View and Capture 4.x install a 'Nikon NEF Plugin', whereas Picture Project installs a 'Nikon NEF Plugin LE'. The former version is better, since it transfers your image data in 16-bit mode. The 'LE' version (perhaps 'LE' means a 'lite' or 'limited' edition) only works in 8-bit mode, so you're actually throwing away data for no good reason if you're using it. Unfortunately, Nikon has stopped updating Nikon View (and Capture 4.x), so you can only use the LE plugin if you have anything more recent than a D200 (this is what we should really be complaining about!). In this case, you're better off just exporting 16-bit tiffs from Picture Project and loading them into Photoshop, unless you need the very limited white balance and exposure raw adjustments that the NEF plugin offers (these are duplicated in the Nikon View editor, but not in Picture Project, another annoying omission in the 'next generation' software).
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#12. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 11
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Thu 19-Jul-07 03:44 PM
Richard,
Thank you - do you have to have installed Photoshop BEFORE the Nikon Capture installation, for that better Nikon plug in to be in effect for ACR ?? I installed Nikon Capture 4.4 a year ago, then installed CS2 in April, then CS3 in May. I wonder what my ACR is calling up to process my D200 nef files?
Well, I guess I am assuming the correct way to get the "MOST" out of my D200 raw files - open in Nikon Capture 4.4, save immediately as tiff, then open in Adobe CS3 to edit. I hope that use of the tiff file from NC 4.4 will allow me the same amount of editing power that a NEF file would, in CS3 software. Sheesh, this is a lot of steps.
Thank you for any confirmation/advice per this post,
Debra
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#14. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 12
>Thank you - do you have to have installed Photoshop BEFORE
>the Nikon Capture installation,
Yes, there has to be somewhere for Capture to install the plugin (which is one of the Photoshop plugins directories). You can probably do this manually by moving Nikon NEF Plugin.8bi or Nikon NEF Plugin LE.8bi to the PS plugins directory (but you have to have Capture, NV or PP installed as well to support the plugin). However, this doesn't mean the plugin will actually work with CS3 - Wellos suggests it only works with CS2, so it sounds like you're out of luck.
>I wonder what my ACR is calling up to process my D200 nef
>files?
If you're seeing the ACR window (lots of raw controls!) then it's handling raw conversion by itself. If you're seeing a smaller window with only white balance & exposure sliders and a small image, then you're using the Nikon plugin - you can only have one or the other. See:
http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/adobe-camera-raw-problems.html
>Well, I guess I am assuming the correct way to get the
>"MOST" out of my D200 raw files - open in Nikon Capture 4.4,
>save immediately as tiff, then open in Adobe CS3 to edit.
Yes, if you like Nikon's 'flavour' of raw conversion (which is a personal preference) and the ability to read in-camera settings and Nikon's colour profiles. And doing it this way means you don't have to bother with the NEF plugin at all (so there's nothing to interfere with ACR, should you wish to use it).
>I hope that use of the tiff file from NC 4.4 will allow me the
>same amount of editing power that a NEF file would, in CS3
>software.
It comes down to the controls available in Capture vs the controls available in ACR and which you prefer - you can only use one or the other, not both together. Once you've done the raw conversion and handed over the image from ACR to PS, or loaded a tiff from Capture into PS, the options are exactly the same, of course.
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#13. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 8
>I mean, what's the point
>of Nikon providing all these wonderful in-camera
>alternatives if they can't be read on the industry standard
>for digital post-production?
This is really up to Adobe rather than Nikon. I don't think their general policy is to support raw settings other than white balance, from any manufacturer. Adobe's 'philosphy' is to deal with such things using software settings in post-processing; arbitrary in-camera settings recorded in the NEF are ignored. The NEF settings can of course be read by Nikon's own software (NV, PP and NX) and (now we've got past that nonsense with white balance encryption) are well documented and accessible (both from open source code and from Nikon's own software development kits).
>Go and look at the list of
>cameras that Adobe list as interfacing with CS3 - there's
>plenty of Canons, and only one meesly Nikon (the D40).
Aren't all current Nikons supported by the latest ACR?
>it seems like no-one
>really knows which in-camera settings are genuinely read by
>ACR.
AFAIK, it's just white balance.
>The Nikon boffins are keeping quiet about it, that's
>for sure.
There are actually several packages that can read and display a lot of relevant settings (e.g. ExifTool), it's just that nobody apart from Nikon seems to be interested in using them to influence raw processing. A bigger issue may be the colour profiling information for each of their cameras that isn't included in the NEFs, but buried somewhere in the Nikon software (various working icc profiles appear mysteriously in one of the Nikon View directories from time to time, but they aren't documented). If you prefer the results from Nikon's converters (including the NEF plugin) to ACR's, it's probably as much to do with Nikon's careful profiling of their own cameras' internal colour spaces as anything else.
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#15. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 13
RDW has supplied a lot of useful info here, but I take issue with a few things. One, Nikon is forcing us all to download our pics into one of their software programs before using CS3. None of Nikon's programs are a patch on the overall capabilities of CS3, and the double-handling is highly irritating. Canon doesn't force this upon its users. It's not up to Adobe, but rather Nikon to ensure that its products are user-friendly in terms of professional operating equipment.
Deb - you'll know if you've got the Nikon Plugin in your CS2 because when you try and load a NEF image a box will appear telling you the Nikon NEF Plugin (LE or otherwise) is overriding the ACR. As I've said before, Nikon's Plugins won't load into CS3 (the NEF LE nor the YCC TIFF). But you can download them from the Nikon website for free if you want them for your old CS2.
Here's an issue with sorting images in Capture: at the moment I am experimenting with a downloaded trial version of Capture NX, and the thumbnails in the browser are way too small to be of much use, and I can't seem to make them any bigger. (In CS3 I can have thumbnails plus click on an image to make it bigger to see whether I want to open it or not.) Don't know if this is just a problem with the trial version of NX or not?
In any case, if you have saved files from any of Nikon's software programs which are in NEF format (and I have many CDs etc saved this way - because I didn't think it would be a problem until I upgraded from CS2 to CS3), then they again must be double handled.
If you use Picture Project as a sorting system, then it seems to automatically alter your images as soon as you download (increasing contrast eg), whether you want it to or not, and before you go near the enhance button.
I am informed that the TIFF files that are exported from Picture Project are not of high quality cf those from Photoshop or Capture? Can anyone confirm this? If so, then Picture Project is not an ideal method of sorting and saving files.
RDW asks if all current Nikons aren't supported by ACR? The answer is, not really. They will read NEF files, but not in-camera adjustments embedded in the files. What's more, in my tests, I've shown that ACR actually DEGRADES NEF files which have in-camera adjustments embedded in them. As far as I'm concerned, this means ACR does not support Nikon cameras. (Adobe's website lists many cameras which it supports, but only one Nikon -the D40)
Here's yet another question for y'all. If those of us with CS3 (and beyond?) are being forced to import our Nikon pics into Capture and then exporting/saving as TIFFs for use in CS3; and if we are going to export them out of CS3 as 8-bit images, does it matter whether the TIFF files from Nikon software are exported as 8-bit or 16-bit TIFFs?
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#16. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 15
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Thu 19-Jul-07 08:48 PM
Thank you Tony and Richard, again, for your help;
1. I did NOT have the Nikon plug-in loading in CS2 or CS3. I had loaded my Nikon Capture 4.4 prior to CS2 or CS3. I have now located and copied the appropriate file, per above, and Bob Johnson's helpful site, to the proper folder. I do now have the Nikon plug in operating in CS2 for my Nikon nef files, as I am now obtaining the described pop up that declares the Nikon plug in is opening the raw file. Good for that.
2. I cannot get the same plug in to work in CS3,(by copying it to the appropriate CS3 folder corresponding to CS2 folders on my hard drive) per Tony's findings. Just wanted to be sure. Will not work in CS3. Bad.
3. Tony asked re; thumbnail sizes in NX, "Don't know if this is just a problem with the trial version of NX or not?" - answer: in Nikon Capture 4.4 on the top main menu, under "Multi Image", there is a "thumbnail size" choice of 5 sizes. Perhaps NX has this command? (I do not have NX).
4. Tony asked "TIFF files that are exported from Picture Project are not of high quality cf those from Photoshop or Capture? Can anyone confirm this?" - answer: I used Picture Project for about 2 weeks and went back to Nikon View as I found PP too cumbersome for me.
5. Tony asked "does it matter whether the TIFF files from Nikon software are exported as 8-bit or 16-bit TIFFs?" answer: I export my tiffs from NC 4.4 as 16 bit files. I also check the box in the tiff saving menu to "embed profile" as I wanta keep my Adobe 1998 profiles, since I shoot flowers a lot.
Hope this helps. You both have helped me a lot in this thread. I'm thrilled that I have found a way to get back my saturated images in CS3 but disappointed that it involves two programs to do it. Good thing I bought the Nikon Capture 4.4, huh?
Thank you, Debra
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#17. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 16
Thanks Deb. Subsequent to writing my last bit I did eventually find a way to make the thumbnails bigger in NX Browser. The little icon box had done a disappearing act for some reason, and it took a while to get it back. (Sounds like it's different to 4.4)
I actually don't mind Picture Project for sorting because, on my big screen iMac, the slideshow operates in full screen, is fast, and allows me to tick images to mark them. I'm still unsure whether the TIFFs exported from PP are 8-bit or 16-bit (it doesn't offer a choice, nor tell you), and also PP always uses Nikon RGB, and doesn't offer Adobe RGB. Is it that PP only exports 8-bit and this is why I've heard that the TIFFs from that program are not of high enough standard?
Looks like I'll also have to buy Capture when the trial version runs out. Damn!
Glad you got the Plugin for CS2 anyway, Deb.
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#18. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 17
b2martin_a Registered since 10th Jan 2007Thu 19-Jul-07 11:35 PMYou can develop a preset for CS3 ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) that will give you the vivid colors you see in your JPG files from the camera. You can not get them identical, but very close. Develop several presets for the various setups you use in the camera. Select all images in Bridge, open them in ACR and apply the preset to all images at the same time.
You can open JPG and NEF files in ACR, which makes it easier to compare the in camera processed image that used you camera settings to the ACR image. Adjust ACR to get an equivalent image and save these settings as a preset that you can select at any time and apply to any or all NEF files. This gives you a starting point that is very close to what you get from the Nikon software, and I assume you would adjust the image using the Nikon software to get the final image. If you are not making any adjustments with the RAW processor, why not just use a JPG from the camera.
I would also like to see ACR read the in camera settings, but the camera manufacturers don't seem interested in a standard RAW file format or documentation that would allow software vendors to use this data. I guess they consider this is a "trade secret" that gives them an advantage over competitors. I think it will be a long time before this issue is resolved - photographers will have to suffer.
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#19. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 18
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Fri 20-Jul-07 06:15 AM
Thanks Robert, you are correct, I do have another option, i.e., to set presets in CS3 for adjusting my nefs that will be cooked in ACR so that the presets match the jpg which has the in-camera settings that I am trying to maintain in the raws. Thanks for the advice, I will probably do this in order to eliminate having two steps in two software programs to achieve my in camera settings for raw files that are cooked in Adobe CS3 ACR.
Thanks very much, this thread has helped me a lot,
Debra
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#20. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 15
>One, Nikon is forcing us all to
>download our pics into one of their software programs before
>using CS3. None of Nikon's programs are a patch on the
>overall capabilities of CS3, and the double-handling is
>highly irritating.
I don't think Nikon is really forcing us to do anything. There are plenty of raw conversion options, of which ACR and NX are just two (I rather like the results from PhaseOne's converters, and Silkypix is worth a try). As suggested below, you may need to experiment with the defaults to get settings that suit your images.
>Canon doesn't force this upon its users.
>It's not up to Adobe, but rather Nikon to ensure that its
>products are user-friendly in terms of professional
>operating equipment.
I don't really see the difference between Canon and Nikon here (you can use ACR, or the manufacturer's software, or a 3rd party tool according to taste), except that Canon provides better free software with its cameras (more capable than Picture Project!). Charging extra for NX even with the pro cameras irritates a lot of people.
>If you use Picture Project as a sorting system, then it
>seems to automatically alter your images as soon as you
>download (increasing contrast eg), whether you want it to or
>not, and before you go near the enhance button.
I haven't seen this, at least not with the version of PP I've used. An image from a NEF imported into PP and exported as a 16-bit tiff without manipulation looks the same as an image from a NEF imported into PS via the NEF plugin and exported as a 16-bit tiff without manipulation.
>I am informed that the TIFF files that are exported from
>Picture Project are not of high quality cf those from
>Photoshop or Capture? Can anyone confirm this? If so, then
>Picture Project is not an ideal method of sorting and saving
>files.
I haven't heard (or seen) this. The (16-bit) tiffs are of excellent quality. My problems with PP are the lack of control over raw conversion, the 'dumbed down' interface compared to Nikon View, and the slow speed of conversion.
>RDW asks if all current Nikons aren't supported by ACR? The
>answer is, not really. They will read NEF files, but not
>in-camera adjustments embedded in the files.
Yes, but this is true of many raw file formats from multiple manufacturers (and is Adobe's decision rather than Nikon's). Adobe only really cares about 'as shot' white balance, which is why they (justifiably!) made such a fuss when Nikon encrypted it in the D2X (Nikon have now given Adobe the key to this, and everyone else has just cracked it or copied the open source dcraw decryption code).
>What's more, in
>my tests, I've shown that ACR actually DEGRADES NEF files
>which have in-camera adjustments embedded in them.
All NEFs have in-camera settings embedded in them. The differences you're seeing between ACR and NX even with 'neutral' settings are due to other differences in the raw conversion algorithms, the defaults the programmers have chosen, and the different colour profiles Nikon and Adobe have generated for your camera under various conditions. If you want to test this, try taking two identical photos under the same conditions, but with widely different in-camera settings. Open each in NX and save each as a tiff. Open each in ACR/PS and save each as another tiff. Compare all 4 tiffs in PS (make sure colour management is set up to honour embedded profiles, since NX will have used whatever you set in-camera by default). The two ACR pictures should be the same. The two NX pictures should be different to each other and to the ACR images.
>As far as
>I'm concerned, this means ACR does not support Nikon
>cameras. (Adobe's website lists many cameras which it
>supports, but only one Nikon -the D40)
No, they are all listed:
http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html
>Here's yet another question for y'all. If those of us with
>CS3 (and beyond?) are being forced to import our Nikon pics
>into Capture and then exporting/saving as TIFFs for use in
>CS3; and if we are going to export them out of CS3 as 8-bit
>images, does it matter whether the TIFF files from Nikon
>software are exported as 8-bit or 16-bit TIFFs?
Yes, if you're going to manipulate the image in CS3 it's best to retain all the data for as long as possible:
http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/8bit-versus-16bit-difference.html
One other suggestion - have you tried Nikon View (free download from Nikon tech support websites)? It works with everything up to the D200, has the same two raw adjustments as the NEF plugin in its editor, and the results from saving a 16-bit tiff and opening it in PS should be the same as using the NEF plugin to import a NEF directly.
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#21. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 20
You're a champion, RDW. Thanks for your efforts. Although we must agree to disagree w.r.t. Nikon's attempts to hedge the market. (They did, after all, supply a Plugin for CS2, but are refusing to do the same for CS3. Also, in-camera adjustments made in Canon cameras are read by Adobe products, are they not? But I'm far from being an expert here.)
Anyway, your suggestion of trying Nikon View is one I'll follow up. I will also try your suggestion for testing images in NX and ACR. (I have already partly done this with Normal images and found the ACR-PS images to be slightly crisper but also slightly different in colour to the same image opened in NX. My argument was that ACR appears to slightly degrade images shot with Nikon RAW NEF in-camera settings, regardless of what those settings are, as long as it can't read them. I'll try again with your idea of "widely different settings" and see what transpires.)
I went to your listed Adobe web address, and you're quite right that all Nikon cameras are listed. I don't recall where the listing I saw was - I guess it related to reading camera settings. But then there's no point in going hunting for it just to make a silly point.
I've got one more question for you, RDW. My version of Picture Project (1.7) doesn't appear to offer me a choice of 8-bit Vs 16-bit when I export TIFFs. In fact it doesn't tell me what they are. Do I presume they are 16-bit, as you imply?
Thanks again for your time.
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#22. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 21
Though I'm less bothered about the PS plugin, I don't really disagree that Nikon has tried to grab some of Adobe's market (the whole white balance saga is evidence of that). While I suppose Nikon isn't obliged to actively assist what they seem to regard as a 'competitor', introducing measures that have no other purpose than making it difficult for 3rd parties to access a key setting certainly doesn't benefit the photographer! Thankfully this nonsense now seems to be behind us, with all major raw converters now reading Nikon's white balance (in Adobe's case with Nikon's co-operation) and no new measures to 'secure' metadata in the last few cameras. Currently, the thing I least like about Nikon's software is that they've replaced a perfectly good 'free' package (Nikon View) with something that's in many respects less capable (Picture Project), an additional 'encouragement' to buy NX. They announced, but then cancelled, 'Nikon View Pro', so NX seems to be the only current offering that allows real raw adjustments from a baseline of your in-camera settings and Nikon's own colour profiling.
Regarding Canon, I don't think ACR supports most of their in-camera settings either, see e.g.:
http://www.opensourcephoto.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15292
http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=611.new
(but I'm not up to date on this stuff).
In the version of PP I last used, the tiffs exported by the main application were 16-bit (though it didn't actually tell you this). You can check when you load them into PS (e.g. Image->Mode->16 Bits/Channel will be ticked). They'll also be twice the size of 8-bit tiffs (if you change to Image->Mode->8 Bits/Channel and re-save you should see the file size halve). In Nikon View's editor, you can explicitly save tiffs as either 8-bit or 16-bit. The only downside of using Nikon View for tiff conversion is that you can't do batch exports from the editor (though you can batch export to jpeg from the browser). PP does support batch export of both tiffs and jpegs.
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#23. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 22
I don't know if anyone's following this thread anymore, but I need to add one last observation. I still quite like sorting my photos in Picture Project - tho I only sort and don't modify them there. I then drag them out to save as Raw NEFs and place them in a folder/ CD etc. The suggestion that one can export TIFFs from PP is true, but they are lesser creatures. This is because the maximum size of a TIFF exported from PP is 1370 X 2048 pixels (to suit a theoretical 10 X 8 inch enlargement). Whereas a TIFF exported from Capture NX is 2592 X 3872. So I don't reckon it's a great idea to save your work as TIFFs exported from PP.
If you're still out there Deb, rather than buy NX, I'm also opting to shoot everything on my D200 and D80 in Normal (but Colour Mode Adobe RGB), save as NEFs (dragged out, but not "exported" from PP). When I need to work on an image or get one printed, I import the Raw NEF into CS3 via ACR where I now have presets that do what my in-camera adjustments used to do. This saves the whole double-handling business to some extent. (By the way, I have heard that Nikon are intending to upgrade their NEF LE Plugin to suit CS3 - one day.)
Thanks again RDW.
Cheers dears.
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#24. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 23
dgillilan Registered since 14th May 2006Thu 26-Jul-07 09:05 AM
Tony, Robert, Xopher, and Richard,
Yes, I am still reading the thread and started to re-post this past Sunday. I received the order of images to be printed that results from an outdoor portrait session that I shot for a neighbor and 8 relatives. The resulting shots were terrific and I recall that I had imported the shots(nefs from my D200 and tiffs from my F100 which I used Astia 100 portrait film in and scanned) that needed a "little touchup" for viewing and selection of prints by the clients, into CS3 back in mid June. I also recall that I had to really revamp my colors and did not know why at the time - back in mid June. Then I read this post and it clicked-my Nikon nef files were not being processed in CS3 as Nikon Capture 4.4 had done so well.
Anyway, upon needing to print the photos last weekend, I used CS2 and my nef files came over w colors accurate and identical to NC 4.4.
NOTE: I have also set up two presets in CS3 now, for camera raw use. I set one up named as "Portraits Oudoors" and another as "Flowers". I did compare the nef files to the jpg files and tried to match the jpg as closely as I could with my preset various settings in ACR in CS3.
Thank you all for the help, I am dealing with the issue and have ordered Bruce Fraser's book on ACR CS2 at the library, may eventually purchase the ACR CS3 book by Bruce due in early October, I guess this book was mostly finished prior to Bruce's passing away in Dec.,
Thanks, Debra
Visit My Nikonian Gallery: https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=94067
Visit My Nikonian Gallery:
nikonians.org/portfolio/dgillilan-
#25. "RE: NEF files degraded in CS3?" | In response to Reply # 24
Yachtsman Registered since 10th Jun 2006Thu 26-Jul-07 10:44 AMA question mark was raised regarding Canons DPP 3.0.2 software and whether Photoshop will read the additional settings. I am able to confirm that it does, I see no change between the unconverted RAW file and the subsequent TIFF in PS7. That is unless I've made changes during the conversion of course.
However, I would guess that ACR has exactly the same difficulties with Canons RAW as it has with Nikons NEF? Thats a shame, because by all accounts ACR has some advantages.
Richard
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