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Subject: "You're Kidding Me, Right??" Previous topic | Next topic
Scooter Silver Member Charter MemberSat 08-Jul-06 10:56 PM
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"You're Kidding Me, Right??"


Milwaukie, US
          

Well first of all you must know that I am a Rawshooter Premium user and a Corel Paint Shop Pro X user. I've been sort of looking around this forum and I notice a lot of you are not.

I downloaded NX today and worked with it for a while. It just looks like a modified Capture to me. Which I really couldn't stand to use.

I'm really confused as to why RSP was not as popular as these other RAW conversion programs. RSP is really easy to use, fast and does a great job for me. This NX is slow, and the layout of controls takes a long time to get to. I will not be using NX at all.

I really love downloading directly into RSP from my CF card, running the slide show, and marking priorities to the photos. And from there it was fast to make corrections and easy to convert to JPEG or tiffs. The work flow is IMO very good in RSP.

I really must be missing something about NX. But for me, I'll wait for something better.




Scooter

My Website

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
08th Jul 2006
1
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
Scooter Silver Member
08th Jul 2006
2
     Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
08th Jul 2006
3
     Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
bastion999
09th Jul 2006
10
          Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
09th Jul 2006
11
     Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014
08th Jul 2006
5
          Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
Scooter Silver Member
09th Jul 2006
13
               Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014
09th Jul 2006
16
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
MelT
08th Jul 2006
4
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
09th Jul 2006
7
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
MelT
09th Jul 2006
8
     Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
09th Jul 2006
9
Reply message RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??
Scooter Silver Member
09th Jul 2006
14
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jku
09th Jul 2006
15
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MelT
10th Jul 2006
18
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RDW
08th Jul 2006
6
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pcspecialist
09th Jul 2006
12
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Spectric
10th Jul 2006
17
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czei
10th Jul 2006
19
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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine
10th Jul 2006
20
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jku
10th Jul 2006
21

DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Sat 08-Jul-06 11:36 PM
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#1. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 0


Colorado Springs, US
          

Everyone is entitled to use whatever software they want to here.

Any new piece of software will seem clumsy at first-- I certainly can attest to that as Rick Walker and I have spent the last few months reviewing most of the major RAW converters that handle NEF files. One of our conclusions of all our efforts was that people should make a decision on which converter to use based on what meets their own workflow needs. We liked RSE/RSP a lot. Each converter has strengths and weaknesses. One thing we mentioned about NX that we didn't like was the tiny GUI and how some tools seem to get buried in the interface. However, we also thought it offered some incredibly powerful options not available in some of the other RAW converters.

Whichever converter you choose, you should spend the time to learn it and get the most out of it.

-Jason

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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Scooter Silver Member Charter MemberSat 08-Jul-06 11:47 PM
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#2. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 1


Milwaukie, US
          

Everyone is entitled to use whatever software they want to here.

Of course they are. I didn't mean it like that.

I guess I am just a bit frustrated with all of this. I know I am going to have to change my software now and it really bugs me. I thought I had found something really good and now it's going away.

I was just venting a bit, I didn't mean to offend.

Jason do you have a recommendation to which programs I should look at knowing how much I like RSP?

Thanks,

Scooter

My Website

  

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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Sat 08-Jul-06 11:53 PM
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#3. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 2


Colorado Springs, US
          

Hey Scooter-- didn't realize you were talking about the RSP buyout.

I don't know if you've listened to any of our podcasts where we discuss RAW converters, but that would be a good starting point.

Of all the RAW converters that we tried, Rick and I both like Capture for our particular workflow "style". That conclusion is based on quality of conversion and the fact that NC reads the in-camera settings in your NEF.

If I didn't have NC, I'd probably use Bibble Pro. It has some really nice features, like integration as a Photoshop plug-in, built in Noise Ninja (very cool), and some good processing algorithms that remove artifacts. The interface is a little crowded at times, but I think it is a good converter.

The other converters we tried are good, too-- but many of them created demosaicing artifacts, or were expensive, or were designed for a studio workflow (tethered shooting).

Just my opinion.

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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bastion999 Registered since 29th Oct 2004Sun 09-Jul-06 01:07 AM
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#10. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 3


Cumming, US
          

After justing listening to the DxO podcast, I'm guessing the upcoming ACR review still leaves you liking NX/Capture over it.

I appreciate your reivews and Bob's comments also.

Keep up the good work!


  

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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Sun 09-Jul-06 01:28 AM
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#11. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 10


Colorado Springs, US
          

ACR has some very good advantages-- especially with a Photoshop-oriented workflow.

Since it is not a stand-alone converter, we've saved it for last.

-Jason

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sat 08-Jul-06 11:58 PM
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#5. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 2


Colorado Springs, US
          

RAW processors are a bit like cameras and film. Something that one person loves can drive someone else crazy. As Jason mentioned, he and I think very well of RSE/RSP. I've had a copy of RSE since it first came out and paid for an upgrade to RSP when it arrived on the market. I like the workflow very well, but the images seem to take more tweaking than Capture, at least for what I like (emphasis on last four words).

My favorite converter in terms of higher volume workflow is probably ACR, but that's also probably because I've used it in that capacity for so long. When combined with Bridge and CS2's Image Processor, I find it pretty quick and easy to use. It's a different workflow than RSE/RSP, but it's easy to use once you get into its revised rhythym.

Bibble is also good at workflow, although I find the user interface a bit busy. Its conversion quality is very good and Bibble has been aggressive about adding new features.

The converter that has the most in common with RSE/RSP is Capture One, primarily because they were created by the same person. RSE/RSP has some features that Capture One doesn't, but there's an inherent similarity. I actually like the initial look of images created in Capture One slightly better than RawShooter, but prefer RawShooter's additional color controls such as vibrance.

The best recommendation I can make is don't switch until you need to. RSE/RSP still works and who knows what the future will hold. There may be something out a year from now that aligns better with your preferences.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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Scooter Silver Member Charter MemberSun 09-Jul-06 05:15 AM
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#13. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 5


Milwaukie, US
          

Rick,

I do plan to keep using RSP for a while. What I didn't realize until now was that RSP was not reading in camera corrections. I always thought I was doing something wrong.

So you use a viewing program first to view and sort your NEF files before using NX. Is this how it is supposed to work. I really like to be able to view the NEF files in a larger preview and throw away the ones I should before I have to open them in NX. This is my biggest problem really.

Thanks for all your replies.

Scooter

My Website

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sun 09-Jul-06 01:14 PM
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#16. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 13


Colorado Springs, US
          

Yes, I use Bridge in CS2 to do my original sort and labeling. It has the slide show feature you mention. After reducing down to the images I'll actually post-process, I then bring up Capture via the Bridge. I view the Capture browser as more of a feature for working with a smaller number of images and to copy and paste file settings.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Sat 08-Jul-06 11:56 PM
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#4. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 0


Petersburg, US
          

>I downloaded NX today and worked with it for a while. It
>just looks like a modified Capture to me.

I have to disagree that NX is merely a modified Capture. The new tools available appear to be very powerful. It does appear to be a beta release though. There is some simple functionability that is not there. I am not talking about PS tools other have complained about such as cloning, etc. I am talking about being able to simply right click on the photo and export to a graphics program of choice. The functionality in the browser seems to be lacking as well. It will be interesting to see what NikonView Pro brings to the table.

NX is not a replacement for CS2 and I do not understand the complaints of those expecting one.

I have been a Capture user who will export to CS2. I have used other raw converters but always find myself going back to Capture as a starting point. I have never been too thrilled with ACR.

I personally see the potential of NX and CS2 being a great combination.

You can use anything you wish to but calling NX merely a modified Capture is simply not an objective statement.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Sun 09-Jul-06 12:05 AM
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#7. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 4


Colorado Springs, US
          

Mel-
Not to hijack the thread, but I think a misconception is that the "browser" in NX is somehow analagous to Nikon View. It isn't. Instead, it is similar to the "Multi-image window" in NC4. It is used to quickly open files in NX (and only NX), do batch processing, and the like. Since Nikon View Pro hasn't come out yet, we still need to use another program to be our "viewer"-- like Bridge, Nikon View, Photo Mechanic or ACD See.

I'm not under the impression that the File Browser window was ever intended to do more than what it currently does (but it is an excellent suggestion that I will pass on to the folks at Nikon).

-Jason


Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Sun 09-Jul-06 12:15 AM
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#8. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 7


Petersburg, US
          

>I'm not under the impression that the File Browser window
>was ever intended to do more than what it currently does
>(but it is an excellent suggestion that I will pass on to
>the folks at Nikon).

Jason,

While others feel it should be, I am not under the impression that NX should include everything one could ever want such as a raw converter, complete graphics program and catalog program.

Usually when a program tries to be everything, then the different pieces come up lacking. I have had no expectation that NX would be a robust catalog problem. Lets hope that Nikonview Pro is.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Sun 09-Jul-06 12:17 AM
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#9. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 8


Colorado Springs, US
          

Tell me about it. In the meantime, I've been enjoying Photo Mechanic. It's like Nikon View on steroids.

-Jason

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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Scooter Silver Member Charter MemberSun 09-Jul-06 05:31 AM
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#14. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 4


Milwaukie, US
          

Hey Mel,

Yeah I guess I need a little lesson on what else is available. Once I started working with RSP I really didn't keep up on what else was out there. So I was not being objective.

I never really got into Adobe's products either. Simply for cost at first but then going from PSP to Adobe is really quite hard for me.

Can you give me a little run down on your work flow? For instance, if you were to shoot 500 shots at a horse show how would you view all of those quickly to edit out the bad? And view them larger than a thumbnail. You don't have to be specific just in terms of software.

Thanks a lot,

Scooter

My Website

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 09-Jul-06 09:52 AM
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#15. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 14


UK
          

Easy. Use Picasa2 from Google. Its free and its faster than RSE/P. I use Picasa2 as a 'first view' of my shoots.

>Can you give me a little run down on your work flow? For
>instance, if you were to shoot 500 shots at a horse show how
>would you view all of those quickly to edit out the bad? And
>view them larger than a thumbnail. You don't have to be
>specific just in terms of software.
>
>Thanks a lot,

john

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Mon 10-Jul-06 12:28 PM
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#18. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 14


Petersburg, US
          

Hi Scooter,

It is not uncommon for me to take 500+ shots at an event. I will download using the NikonView option when you pop in a new disk in the reader. Once the download is complete then NikonView will automatically start.

I will quickly flip through the screen sized pictures using NikonView. I will put a representative shot in Capture, and make any tweaks to WB, etc., save the settings and then batch the rest. I will put into CS2 if needed for more serious color corrections, purpost the cleaning of dust marks and resizing for print.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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RDW Registered since 20th Sep 2002Sat 08-Jul-06 11:59 PM
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#6. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 0



          

If one of the surveys on the Pixmantec site is to be believed, RawShooter was pretty popular (second only to ACR amongst 3rd party converters, though I suppose the free RSE helped to boost its ratings). This is presumably why Adobe is burying it! I agree about the workflow - I haven't seen a better raw conversion interface. I'm a bit less enthusiastic about the conversion quality (at least with the free RSE version - I haven't tried RSP with the Color Engine). Although it usually gave nice results with landscapes, I could never get (e.g.) good skin tones (compared to Nikon's software) without a lot of fiddling. RawShooter (in common with other 3rd party converters) also ignores most in-camera settings. The ability to use (and adjust) these settings, along with good quality default conversion (with 'accurate' colours) and (in NX) the new U-point technology, are probably the reasons why Capture is of interest here. Of course most of the excitement this week is from the new NX download (most people haven't had the chance to play with it before now).

  

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pcspecialist Registered since 18th Mar 2006Sun 09-Jul-06 03:33 AM
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#12. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 0


Portland, US
          

I suggust staying with RSP until the purchase of a new unsupported camera prevents you from doing so. Why mess with somthing that is working for you?

  

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Spectric Registered since 04th Nov 2004Mon 10-Jul-06 11:21 AM
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#17. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 12


Northern Cumbria, UK
          

Hi all

Having tried many convertors I too found RSP to be the one for me and as said it has been swallowed up by Adobe, obviously they did not like the competition !

I will still use this until I am forced into changing, and then will review the marketplace.

For viewing & cataloging your images why not use digital Pro ?

Written by photographers for photographers and although not easy at first to get to grips with I think it has potential.

all the best
Roy

  

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czei Basic MemberMon 10-Jul-06 01:56 PM
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#19. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 0



          

>I downloaded NX today and worked with it for a while. It
>just looks like a modified Capture to me. Which I really
>couldn't stand to use.

I'll have to second that in the sense that the general user interface has more in common with Capture than anything else, which was also a big dissapointment for me. Having tried every RAW converter on the market (and paid for more than one) OSX Capture comes dead last in every category except for image quality. I just naturally assumed that Nikon would use this opportunity to re-design the program completely, and was shocked to see what they came up with, especially after using Lightroom.

I wanted to give the program a try, though, and after reading the entire NX manual, and spending a couple of afternoons playing with it, it still comes dead last in every category except for image quality, which is too bad, since the control points and the way to use selections and layer modes are really useful.

Since I happen to be a software product manager, here's what I would do to fix it:

1. Assemble a bunch of professional photographers (including most who never used Capture) to see how the program could fit into their workflow and then streamline the GUI to make it easy to actually get work done.

2. Change the way the program works so that it doesn't try to render every change to the entire image. This will speed it up tremendously.

3. Make it possible to easily copy settings from one photo to others. For example, many photographers will shoot a grey card, and then use that to make settings for many others. Or adjust a range of photos up or down a stop.






  

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DrJay32 Gold Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions for the Resources and eZine Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003Mon 10-Jul-06 02:32 PM
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#20. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 19


Colorado Springs, US
          

Right now there appear to be two "camps" for RAW workflow:
The "use a dedicated product at each step in your workflow" camp, and
The "use a single product for management, RAW conversion, and output" camp

I would say that Nikon fits into the former camp-- using a dedicated piece of software at each stage of the game (import/management, RAW Processing, Output).

Having used NX now since mid-March as a beta-tester, here's what I have learned so far:

>1. Assemble a bunch of professional photographers (including
>most who never used Capture) to see how the program could
>fit into their workflow and then streamline the GUI to make
>it easy to actually get work done.

Much of the Capture NX arrangement was done in a way to keep backwards-compatibility with Capture 4. In fact, if all you use are the "base adjustments", then you can read the files in Capture 4.4 with no problem. As Nikon Capture NX is firmly in the RAW converter category (camp 1) the product was not designed to manage photos, it was designed to process NEFs. So far, there is not one product that I have come across (although some are close) that offers me the kind of all in one approach for my type of image processing. These products tend to do well at either management or conversion (processing) but not both. Again, we have choice here, so it is not a big concern to me. I personally LOVE the image management of Apple Aperture. However, I didn't like the interface for RAW conversion. I agree-- if there were a product that offered the control of Nikon Capture with the organizing power of Aperture, I'd be all over it in a heartbeat.

While there are still some kinks in the GUI, Nik Software and Nikon HAVE listened to their beta-testers, who happened to be photographers. People like Vincent Versace, Moose Peterson, and even us, the Image Doctors, have all given input on what they wanted Capture NX to accomplish. Some of our suggestions made it into the 1.0 release, some of them will have to wait until a service update.

>2. Change the way the program works so that it doesn't try
>to render every change to the entire image. This will speed
>it up tremendously.

This is a conscious decision by Nikon in how they wish to render NEFs. First of all, the program speeds up a LOT over Capture 4.4 if you make your adjustments in Edit Steps (outside of the Base Adjustments). When you use the Base Adjustments, you are essentially using Capture 4.4 in the NX environment. Making changes in Edit Steps uses the NX engine, as well as image caching, and performance improves dramatically.

As far as overall speed-- Nikon wants the photographer to see exactly what their image will look like when processed. This approach requires more processing than other converters which do a basic rendering and then show an "approximate" result. However, once the processing is done, you usually don't need to wait that long for the output to be saved to a TIFF or JPEG. By way of comparison, it takes several minutes per file to output 16-bit TIFFs on my computer when I use DXO, which uses the "approximation" approach. As to which approach is better, that is a matter of personal preference. Nikon believes that photographers want to see the precise image for maximum quality-- that is their stated position on this.

>3. Make it possible to easily copy settings from one photo
>to others. For example, many photographers will shoot a
>grey card, and then use that to make settings for many
>others. Or adjust a range of photos up or down a stop.

You can do this in the Browser window with copy/paste and saved batch commands.
We've started a Capture NX tutorial in an anchored post at the top of this forum. Check it out for an explanation of how to do this in NX.

-Jason

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
www.luminescentphoto.com

Listen to The Image Doctors

Jason P. Odell
Colorado Nikonian
Author, Moving to Lightroom: Image Processing and Workflow

www.luminescentphoto.com

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Mon 10-Jul-06 10:07 PM
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#21. "RE: You're Kidding Me, Right??"
In response to Reply # 19


UK
          

I beg to differ. I tested the software yesterday and found it to be intuitive and rich with features that made me very happy. I like to see the changes as I make them and I got that. I like an uncluttered working environment and I got it by simply hitting the Tab key to banish all the floating menus. I like the ability to adjust the size of my image window and I could do that by simply holding the Ctrl key then hit the 0 key (for full screen), hit the + key to zoom in and hit the – key to zoom out. In fact, you can do your editing with the image occupying the entire screen! In most cases, a right click will pop up the appropriate menu.

I use Rawshooter Essential a lot and I found that with everything being equal i.e. applying only the camera's white balance setting, the image from the NX looks more natural than Rawshooter. I realize that Capture NX has applied my in-camera settings such as contrast, sharpening etc. so I have taken that into account in my evaluation.

It is indeed a great shame that one cannot clone with NX. This is possibly the only serious drawback with Capture NX, as you have to resort to PS (or Gimp2.2 for me), to remove dust bunnies. The other drawback is that it is memory hungry. I was testing it on my 2.4 GHZ Pentium 4 machine with 512 MB RAM and a Radeon 9600 Pro graphics card to boot and still the rendering was a bit sluggish. I am planning to increase the memory to 2 GB and if that makes a difference it will be well worth it.

Bearing in mind that it has only just been released, I think the guys at Nik have done a fantastic job.

I have a few items on my wish list, which I will put elsewhere.

john

  

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