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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Fri 23-Aug-13 10:15 PM
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"Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
Fri 23-Aug-13 10:17 PM by coolmom42

McEwen, US
          

I am interested in photographing the LIGHT by Bruce Munro installation at Cheekwood sometime before it leaves town.

This is their policy on professional photography of the exhibit:

"There is no professional photography or videography allowed during exhibition nights. Any groups taking professional photography during the show will be asked to leave.

Professional photography & videography will be available during the LIGHT exhibition on select Tuesday nights through November. Available sessions are first come first serve.
Photography is $225.00 for member and $300.00 for non-members. Videography – please call for quote.

Hours of access are 6pm – 9pm.
Bookings can be made by calling the Special Events Department."

So how do they determine who is a pro and who is amateur???? If I show up with a good quality tripod, decent (but not considered pro) quality DSLR & lens, plus a little bit of other gear, how could I show them I'm NOT a pro, and have no intent of selling my photos?

I've seen photos for sale that were made with an Iphone.... what's to keep a pro from wandering in and doing that? And how would that pro be distinguished from the random visitor?

Aside from my own ethical principles, what's to keep ME from selling the photos I make? And how would they know if I do it???

This seems to be a totally un-enforceable policy.

They have no restrictions of photography of any other exhibits that I can find on their web site. I could just as easily go make photos of the contemporary sculptures that are permanent installations, or of the outdoor train exhibit. Clearly they want people to buy prints of the very photogenic LIGHT exhibit in their gift shop, rather than anyone getting prints from self-made images.

I looked at the designer's website--there is a link to ACID: Anti-Copying in Design---but nothing about photo ownership.

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

35 mm 1.8 Nikkor
18-55 mm Nikkor VR
55-200 mm Nikkor VR
55-300 mm Nikkor VR
150-500 mm Sigma OS
Feisol CT3471 & Markins M20 ballhead

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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PSAGuy Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Nov 2008Fri 23-Aug-13 10:22 PM
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#1. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 23-Aug-13 10:25 PM by PSAGuy

Lake Elmo, US
          

My "litmus test" is if I can look in the mirror and say I did nothing wrong. If there is even a slight nagging , then I know I am kidding myself.

So to answer your question above...."what's keeping me from selling the photos I make ?" ....I guess if you have to even ask that question in that manner, you are pushing it past even your own limits. It appears to me you are asking "Can I get away with it?" If that's the question.....you should already know the answer.



  

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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Sat 24-Aug-13 02:49 AM
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#3. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 1


McEwen, US
          

>My "litmus test" is if I can look in the mirror and
>say I did nothing wrong. If there is even a slight nagging ,
>then I know I am kidding myself.
>
>So to answer your question above...."what's keeping me
>from selling the photos I make ?" ....I guess if you have
>to even ask that question in that manner, you are pushing it
>past even your own limits. It appears to me you are asking
>"Can I get away with it?" If that's the
>question.....you should already know the answer.
>
>
>
>


Please note that I said "aside from my own ethical considerations".

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

35 mm 1.8 Nikkor
18-55 mm Nikkor VR
55-200 mm Nikkor VR
55-300 mm Nikkor VR
150-500 mm Sigma OS
Feisol CT3471 & Markins M20 ballhead

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Sat 24-Aug-13 01:27 AM
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#2. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat 24-Aug-13 01:29 AM by dm1dave

Lowden, US
          

The problem of course is they have no way of sorting out who is pro and who is not. Enforcement is arbitrary based on the opinion of the security guy that sees you taking pictures.

I would guess that using any DSLR and a decent tripod would put you at risk of being asked to leave.

This is where a camera like the Nikon 1 or another small mirrorless and a small plastic tripod (gorilla pod) would come in handy. The small camera looks like a point and shoot but it gives you most of your DSLR controls so you can get the shots that you want.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Sat 24-Aug-13 02:51 AM
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#4. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 2
Sat 24-Aug-13 02:52 AM by coolmom42

McEwen, US
          

>The problem of course is they have no way of sorting out who
>is pro and who is not. Enforcement is arbitrary based on the
>opinion of the security guy that sees you taking pictures.
>
>I would guess that using any DSLR and a decent tripod would
>put you at risk of being asked to leave.
>
>This is where a camera like the Nikon 1 or another small
>mirrorless and a small plastic tripod (gorilla pod) would come
>in handy. The small camera looks like a point and shoot but it
>gives you most of your DSLR controls so you can get the shots
>that you want.
>


I expect you are right, Dave. I may call and talk to someone there about it, ask if they have a process for differentiating pros, LOL.

I do have a small 12 MP Fujifilm camera that has some pretty good flexibility. I might pick up a gorilla pod to use with it.

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

35 mm 1.8 Nikkor
18-55 mm Nikkor VR
55-200 mm Nikkor VR
55-300 mm Nikkor VR
150-500 mm Sigma OS
Feisol CT3471 & Markins M20 ballhead

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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ShaunVD Registered since 24th May 2013Sat 24-Aug-13 03:55 AM
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#5. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I'm not really sure how a venue can determine who is a pro or an amateur. I would imagine they would expect someone, or more than likely, a group of people working together with lots of heavy duty equipment filming the event.

I can't imagine why someone would give you or your D3100 a hard time, or any of those lenses on your list. Perhaps that Sigma may stick out to someone though.

DSLRs, especially entry level ones, become more mainstream everyday. When I'm out and about I often spot people, especially families with them, at the beach, parks, and zoo.

I would hate for you to not bring your DSLR just to find there are plenty of other people in attendance with them.

If you carry yourself and your gear unassumingly, you should be fine!

  

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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Sat 24-Aug-13 12:01 PM
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#6. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 5


McEwen, US
          

The tripod would probably be the attention-getter. I won't need the Sigma lens, but the 55-300 is pretty long with the hood added. But I won't need the hood at night.

I'll call them next week, it will be interesting to see what they have to say.

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

35 mm 1.8 Nikkor
18-55 mm Nikkor VR
55-200 mm Nikkor VR
55-300 mm Nikkor VR
150-500 mm Sigma OS
Feisol CT3471 & Markins M20 ballhead

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 24-Aug-13 12:32 PM
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#7. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

You're right, it is entirely arbitrary. I've been accused flat out of lying - because I had a tripod, a big camera and big lenses. I obviously was a pro. The fact that I had a business card from one of the extremely large computer companies did not get me off the hook. I was essentially ejected from the grounds, and presumably I'm not welcome to return either.

In another case, I did as you're about to do and called. The reply is that if you're concerned enough to call, you're considered a pro. Oh great.

In many cases, the tripod is the determinant. Anyone serious enough to be using a tripod is considered a pro. On the other hand, given that this particular event is at night, even that may not be a very fair discriminator. (It often isn't anyway, but even less so at night.)

Many other times, it doesn't seem to matter. Most times, in fact.

Sometimes the "professional" photography means something like "a portrait session" with clients or models, perhaps something like an engagement shoot. I've never worked with models in any similar venue, so I don't know how I'd try to explain that as a non-pro. In fact, that's what I think this particular notice has in mind since they say "groups taking professional photography."

It is often logically extremely hard to prove the absence of something. For example, prove that driver X has never driven on the wrong side of the road.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Sat 24-Aug-13 08:28 PM
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#11. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 7


McEwen, US
          

>You're right, it is entirely arbitrary. I've been accused
>flat out of lying - because I had a tripod, a big camera and
>big lenses. I obviously was a pro. The fact that I
>had a business card from one of the extremely large computer
>companies did not get me off the hook. I was essentially
>ejected from the grounds, and presumably I'm not welcome to
>return either.
>
>In another case, I did as you're about to do and called. The
>reply is that if you're concerned enough to call, you're
>considered a pro. Oh great.
>
>In many cases, the tripod is the determinant. Anyone serious
>enough to be using a tripod is considered a pro. On the other
>hand, given that this particular event is at night, even that
>may not be a very fair discriminator. (It often isn't anyway,
>but even less so at night.)
>
>Many other times, it doesn't seem to matter. Most times, in
>fact.
>
>Sometimes the "professional" photography means
>something like "a portrait session" with clients or
>models, perhaps something like an engagement shoot. I've
>never worked with models in any similar venue, so I don't know
>how I'd try to explain that as a non-pro. In fact, that's
>what I think this particular notice has in mind since they say
>"groups taking professional photography."
>
>It is often logically extremely hard to prove the absence of
>something. For example, prove that driver X has never driven
>on the wrong side of the road.

Oh they have a long list of requirements for photo shoots. First of all the client has to be a contributing member, above a certain level. Then there is a big fee, all kinds of other restrictions.

I'm thinking a tripod is going to be a necessity for the night-time shots. Mine is pretty big, unless I switch to a smaller camera and a gorilla pod.

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

35 mm 1.8 Nikkor
18-55 mm Nikkor VR
55-200 mm Nikkor VR
55-300 mm Nikkor VR
150-500 mm Sigma OS
Feisol CT3471 & Markins M20 ballhead

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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hujiie Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Apr 2009Sat 24-Aug-13 01:00 PM
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#8. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat 24-Aug-13 01:01 PM by hujiie

US
          

I agree it is unclear who is a pro or an amateur and it is the best to ask the organizers. However, I feel the tripod to be the major factor not as much as camera and lenses.

If you were asked to shoot full coverage of these fine artwork for reproduction purposes, you must have a decent tripod.

www.hitoshiujiie.com/photography.html

  

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professorune Registered since 08th Jun 2013Sat 24-Aug-13 01:26 PM
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#9. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


HK
          

It really boils down with the security/other personnel monitoring the venue at the time. In my opinion is very subjective & is really a grey area.

To such people, anyone with an DSLR and tripod would likely be categorised as a "pro." Wouldn't bother to explain to them that using a D3100 would not be typical of a pro; let alone the details of what lenses a "pro" would likely use. You may wish to forgo the tripod.

Matter of selling photos taken is really an ethics and copyright matter. I guess this can only be answered by the person taking the photos.

  

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geno64 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Sep 2012Sat 24-Aug-13 01:35 PM
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#10. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


midlothian, US
          

In June, I experienced the same situation. I was in Ft. Lauderdale, and I saw a flyer for this mansion that was near the hotel. It was supposed to have these beautiful gardens on the grounds. I had about four to kill until my wife was done with her seminar, so I packed up and drove over there. The camera was tucked away in a small backpack, so nothing was out, but the tripod. When I walked in the door to pay the entrance fee, he handed me a sheet that indicated that if I was a professional photographer, the fee was over $200.00. I'm not rich, but if I knew what I was getting into, you never know, I might have paid it, but sight unseen, not a chance. It's getting harder and harder out there just to shoot pictures. Pretty depressing.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jbloom Gold Member Awarded for the continuous and generous sharing of his high level expertise and his always encouraging comments in several forums. Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Sun 25-Aug-13 06:04 AM
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#12. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Wethersfield, US
          

>Clearly they
>want people to buy prints of the very photogenic LIGHT exhibit
>in their gift shop, rather than anyone getting prints from
>self-made images.

Bingo.

Frankly, when I run into this sort of thing I shrug my shoulders and move on. There are a million things to photograph; I won't fall apart if I can't photograph some exhibit or show.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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snegron Silver Member Nikonian since 05th May 2007Sun 25-Aug-13 04:08 PM
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#13. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Cape Coral, Florida, US
          

It will most likely depend on the perception of the people working the event. As others have mentioned, a tripod will be viewed as a professional tool in the eyes of a non-photo enthusiast.

Years ago I had an incident with security guards at the University of Puerto Rico. I was taking pictures of my cousin and her fiance in front of the clock tower with a hand held (no tripod) D200, SB800 for fill flash and Nikon 17-55mm 2.8 AF-S DX. Despite the fact that there were dozens of tourists who had just arrived on buses and were taking hundreds of pictures with their DSLR's, I was singled out because they thought I was either a pro or a terrorist. Reasoning with them did not work. They sent in for back up. When I asked their supervisor why I was singled out, he said that my camera looked professional.

  

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DaveSoderlund Silver Member Nikonian since 29th May 2010Sun 25-Aug-13 06:56 PM
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#14. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Geneva, US
          

My wife and and saw his installation last year at Longwood Gardens in Philadelphia. Per Longwood's policy, we were able to bring in a tripod as long as we registered it upon entry and got a "tripod pass." I seem to remember that Longwood restricts tripods indoors at certain times of the day.

In retrospect, I was not very happy with my results that evening -- the light conditions are very challenging, and the crowds of people were suffocating!

Hope you have better luck than I did!

Dave

http://davidmsoderlund.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidsoderlund/

Visit my Nikonians gallery

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography Charter MemberMon 26-Aug-13 02:22 AM
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#15. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Philadelphia, US
          

>I am interested in photographing the
>LIGHT by Bruce Munro installation at Cheekwood sometime before it leaves town.
>
>This is their policy on professional photography of the
>exhibit:
>
>"There is no professional photography or videography
>allowed during exhibition nights. Any groups taking
>professional photography during the show will be asked to
>leave.
>
>Professional photography & videography will be available
>during the LIGHT exhibition on select Tuesday nights through
>November. Available sessions are first come first serve.
>Photography is $225.00 for member and $300.00 for non-members.
>Videography – please call for quote.
>
>Hours of access are 6pm – 9pm.
>Bookings can be made by calling the Special Events
>Department."
>
>So how do they determine who is a pro and who is amateur????

As others have stated, in reality, they can't tell as there are many amateurs who have professional equipment these days.

>If I show up with a good quality tripod, decent (but not
>considered pro) quality DSLR & lens, plus a little bit of
>other gear, how could I show them I'm NOT a pro, and have no
>intent of selling my photos?

You likely can't do that unless they are willing to take your word. I've found that the minute a photographer shows up with a tripod, the locals think that person must be a pro. Moreover, many non-photographers look at almost any DSLR and think, that person is likely a pro. Normally, at places like that, they assume pro to be safe about not letting pros in unless they pay the fee and follow their rules.

>I've seen photos for sale that were made with an Iphone....
>what's to keep a pro from wandering in and doing that? And
>how would that pro be distinguished from the random visitor?


>Aside from my own ethical principles, what's to keep ME from
>selling the photos I make? And how would they know if I do
>it???

None that I know of, but you would be subject to suit since you violated their rules, which, under the law, they get to make, since it's all on private property. The suit, of course while unlikely, is possible, and I've seen people at least threatened with suit, and defending even a threat costs money.

>This seems to be a totally un-enforceable policy.

If you're talking about the sale of the images, they do have the power of the law suit, should they desire to make use of it.

>They have no restrictions of photography of any other exhibits
>that I can find on their web site. I could just as easily go
>make photos of the contemporary sculptures that are permanent
>installations, or of the outdoor train exhibit. Clearly they
>want people to buy prints of the very photogenic LIGHT exhibit
>in their gift shop, rather than anyone getting prints from
>self-made images.

I suspect that after the show being in Longwood Gardens last year (It was extremely hard to photograph it there, even though they had much looser rules.), Munro, was unhappy with the number of photographs he saw on the Internet. There are tens of thousands of images of the show at Longwood Gardens, some good, and most awful. I believe Munro exercised his copyright rights and told Cheekwood to implement the policy about photographing his work. Many artists limit or ban photography of their work when exhibited.

>I looked at the designer's website--there is a link to ACID:
>Anti-Copying in Design---but nothing about photo ownership.

Any photo you take with your camera you own under the law (To the best of my non-attorney, legal knowledge.). The problems are three fold, however, concerning the photos. First, did you violate the law making them. Second, did you violate the law displaying them. Third, did you violate the law selling them.

In this case, without Munro's permission, or Munro's permission via Cheekwood, since the show is copyrighted, if you make an image of the exhibit, the image is considered a reproduction and is therefore is an illegal image. If Munro somehow finds out about your copy, you could be sued for copyright infringement and substantial damages, including statutory damages, considering the work has likely been registered at the US copyright office. How could Munro find out you took the image. He may have someone, if not himself, do a regular Internet search for illegal images of the work, for example. Those searches do work much of the time.

There are ways around the copyright problem (fair use, editorial use, etc.), but generally not around the problem that the photo was taken in the first place. For you can't be prohibited from taking the photo which the exhibit is on private property where they can say no.

Here's the problem if you sell a copy. What's the difference between an amateur and a professional photographer? Answer: sales! Sell the photo, and under definitions used by most, if not all courts, you've moved into the realm of professional photography, whether it's a full time gig or just once, perhaps twice, period.

Were it me, were I am amateur. I'd call Cheekwood and attempt to get prior permission. Explain your concern about showing up with your camera, despite being an amateur, and your non-pro tripod, which could be misidentified, and that you desire, if possible, to obtain prior permission to come there with your camera and make images for your personal use.

As a pro, me, if I were to go, I would explain that while I am a pro, I am not a commercial photographer (I guarantee they have no idea of the difference.), but instead I'm a photographer using my images editorially, read that for news, intending to do a possible story with the images, which would all be true. I would say that I and the publications I work for never pay pro photographer fees to take photos (They and I don't.) and if they permit me to take the photos, they could get good national publicity. Often times, at that point, I'm asked for my press credentials (Always with me and I can email them a scan of them.) which I am willing to provide.

Good luck with your photos.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

-----------------------------
Visit my Travel Photography Blog and my Galleries.

  

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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Mon 26-Aug-13 02:43 AM
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#16. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 15


McEwen, US
          

All good points as always, Ned.

I was thinking you might have seen the exhibit at Longwood & have some experience with it.

Cheekwood's general policy is that they allow photography of the outdoor areas but not indoors. Anyone wanting to do "special occasion" photographs, like engagement or senior portraits, must pay a substantial fee and have a client who is a contributing member.

Quite honestly I think you are right.... it's going to be difficult to photograph at best and even worse with the crowds.

And as someone else pointed out, the world is full of things to photograph that are not a huge hassle.

I'm just generally annoyed by vague rules and un-enforcable policies.

working on it in Middle TN
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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography Charter MemberMon 26-Aug-13 03:13 AM
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#17. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 16


Philadelphia, US
          

Thanks very much.

Welcome to my world of professional photography for News Photographers and Editorial Photographers, who don't use photographs commercially. Unfortunately, most non-photographers, and even many photographers have little or no understanding of the difference between commercial and editorial photography, and in so many locations the rules are completely arbitrary and the enforcement even more arbitrary.

I will say this, eventually I do get in to most locations, and without paying, other than the standard entrance fees the general public pays (Often I don't have to pay them either.) (My bosses and clients will not reimburse me, ever for professional photographer permission to photograph fees.), but it often takes a lot of explanation on my part (way too much), and much nonsense.

It generally takes prior permission, so I don't waste my time because the right person to speak with usually isn't there when I get there, and no one else can make a decision.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Mon 26-Aug-13 07:49 AM
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#18. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


St Petersburg, RU
          

The rule is deliberately vague and broad so as to reserve flexibility in enforcement and defense. It is what they say it is at the time they decide.
A couple years ago I was going to some pro basketball games using my sister's season tickets, when visiting back in California. I checked the web site of the venue and the team and got a vague description of a ban on any professional photography equipment. I checked with a local camera club and no one was in agreement as to what was permitted. I took a chance to simply send an email to the head of security for the complex and asked. He responded saying that any camera that could take high quality images suitable for publication would be banned, and added that size was a security factor as well. Over a few minutes we exchanged several emails honing into what they really wanted. Yes, I could take my D90(my only DSLR at the time) and yes I could take my 70-200 2.8 and no I could not take a second camera, tripod or monopod because they felt they risked being used as weapons. He said, finally, any lens over 6 inches would not be permitted.
He even said that a 70-200 Nikon was on a list of permitted lenses, but would have to go through security without the hood mounted. So they did have some specific rules regarding size and accepted/banned models but did not want the public to know them to give gate security people more flexibility. I got him to write a short 1 sentence note acknowledging his permission for me to bring my camera and a few lenses 6 inches or less. I was to present that to security if I was stopped. As it turned out, I was not hassled at all and was even invited by an usher to sit in an empty courtside seat to get a better view. Each time I return to California during the season I go, equipped with the letter, and D800 70-200 and 24-70.
Yes, the D800 is a decent sports camera.

So the conclusion is; keep asking questions narrowing down the specifics and try to talk with someone with authority and you might be surprised in getting better access.
I approached the director of the premier ballet theater here about shooting performances and at first was told no but by being persistent and seeking higher authorities, in this case the music director I was finally invited to come and demonstrate that I could shoot without disturbing the audience or dancers. I shot in a dress rehearsal with my D7000 in Q mode which was approved but the D800 is not...too loud. So I have a very rare letter allowing me to shot ballet performances in the Mariinsky Theater if it is a local production. Traveling companies will have their own photography rules.
So the lesson is, ask, and keep asking until someone agrees.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography Charter MemberMon 26-Aug-13 12:46 PM
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#19. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 18


Philadelphia, US
          

Stan, I couldn't agree more. Keep asking before you go to a place. Much of the time you will get permission.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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Visit my Travel Photography Blog and my Galleries.

  

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Sportymonk Registered since 16th Jul 2007Fri 30-Aug-13 03:41 AM
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#21. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 19


Rocky Mount, US
          

I went to a Carolina Hurricanes Hockey game with my son in college. I emailed the venue asking permission as I had heard various reports that you couldn't not take a camera with detachable lenses inside to shoot. When the email returned, I could see it bounced to several offices but eventually, the head so security said it was ok. Printed one copy to put in my camera bag and one for my back pocket in case they took the first one and somebody else asked. (A little paranoia goes a long way). Did not want to be seen taking equipment to the car and putting in the trunk and returning to the game.

Bottom line, guard at gate asked what's in the bag? I said my camera equipment. He said ok without looking. Loved the game. (Funny thing, My son said he was taking me and I paid for the tickets?????)


As others have said, ask, or better yet, email and get something in writing.


Here's a link to the shots. http://www.hldphotos.com/Galleries/Sports/Carolina-Hurricanes-2009/9034629_WbkRQg#!i=602354914&k=zMVKzRV

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Martin Turner Moderator Expert professional PJ & PR photographer Nikonian since 19th Jun 2006Thu 29-Aug-13 10:30 PM
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#20. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Bidford on Avon, GB
          

Always a tricky issue, and, as others have said, it really depends on who is enforcing it.

I've seen 'professional' equipment defined as tripods and/or flash, which is strange, since no one has ever demanded to see my professional credentials when purchasing tripods and flash guns.

I've seen 'professional' defined as dSLR.

On the other hand, when people want you to prove you are a professional in order to get entry into something, or a discount, they generally want to see your business card.

Part of the problem, which we've discussed a few times, is that some people use the word 'professional' as a description of quality or ability, where:

• novice
• hobby
• enthusiast
• amateur
• professional

is the order of things.

Nikon seems to be a bit between two camps. You have to earn part of your living from photography, and also own two Nikon pro bodies and two pro lenses in order to qualify for NPS in the UK.

To me, 'professional' means someone for whom photography is part of their main job where they are producing images which would otherwise require hiring a photographic professional. So, for example, someone who shoots advertising images as part of a wider Creative Director or similar role is a professional, but someone who shoots pictures of houses with a compact camera as part of their job as an estate agent (US=realtor) is not. Someone who sells a lot of stuff on eBay and has a little macro studio to shoot the images with is not (in my book) a professional, but someone who gets hired by various clients to shoot their things for eBay is a professional, even if the images are not great.

To me there's a bit of a sliding scale between how significant the images are versus how much of your time you spend shooting them. Someone whose entire job is shooting pictures of wounds and bumps is still a professional, even though they may never produce an image that anyone wants to look at for longer than they have to. Someone who shoots six images a year, all of which are the main artwork for a major advertising campaign, is a professional, even though their output is tiny.

To go with that, someone's approach to business is part of it as well. A professional correctly records their invoices, pays tax, depreciates their equipment, has a good backup system in place, has policies regarding model releases, consent and other matters, and has an appropriate level of public liability insurance, and works to contracts.

M A R T I N • T U R N E R
http://art.martinturner.org.uk
http://www.martinturner.org.uk

Nikonians membership: my most important photographic investment, after the camera

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Omaha Registered since 07th Jan 2012Sat 31-Aug-13 01:04 PM
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#22. "RE: Pro vs amateur---how can a venue determine who is which???"
In response to Reply # 0


Omaha, US
          

I used to sneak my gear past security getting into concerts. Tom Petty. Eric Clapton. 38 Special. Countless others. This was back in the early 80's. Lots of tricks for getting in, and half the time when security spotted me I'd get thrown out.

Always got the shot, though. Good times.

For this place, I take them to be saying, in effect, "if you want to come here and take hi-quality photographs, you are going to have to pay us for the privilege". Pro vs amateur doesn't mean anything.

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