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Subject: "Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interc..." This topic is locked.
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 27-Sep-12 12:12 AM
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"Poll question: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"



Some days I think 'Nikon and Canon' are the 'Microsoft and Dells' of the camera world. They have seemingly ignored the emerging mirrorless SLR camera market while Sony and others are making definite progress. The new Sony A99 and even the NEX-7 have some very compelling features. The current situation can be compared to the PC industry where the market leaders missed the move to tablets and phones by declaring 'Desktop PCs' will never go away.

But beware! There are some serious roadblocks to a mirrorless DSLR!

If you want to use your existing lenses, the body cannot be as thin as many new mirrorless cameras. Why? Your current SLR lenses require an unusually long distance from the back of the lens to the sensor plane. This distance was originally chosen to make room for a 35 mm reflex mirror. Modern digital systems, like micro four thirds, use new families of lenses with a shorter lens to plane distance They do not need to accommodate a mirror, so their camera bodies can be thinner - and lenses themselves can be marginally smaller.

So what do you want? Mirrors forever? No mirrors but keep your current lenses and have a less than optimal body? Or new compact lenses and cameras?

It will be interesting to hear the opinions of experienced photographers.

Where do you stand?

Poll result (79 votes)
Yes, even if they require me to buy a new set of lenses. (4 votes)
Yes, but only if I can use my existing lenses. (28 votes)
No. Mirrorless will never match a DLSR. (2 votes)
No. What I have is fine (37 votes)
I'm undecided. (7 votes)
What's mirrorless? (1 votes)

  

  

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klrbee25 Silver Member  Naples, US  Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2006 Thu 27-Sep-12 12:28 AM
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#1. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Mirrorless may be the future, but they will isolate a lot of photographers who have invested a lifetime in lenses for standard lenses if they aren't compatible.

-Alex Rosen
www.flickr.com/photos/klrbee25/

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Hawk Eyes   US  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 27-Sep-12 01:46 AM
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#2. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



This has nothing to do with the D800. Non-Nikon Cameras would be a better place for your post !

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 27-Sep-12 02:33 AM
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#3. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 2
Thu 27-Sep-12 02:36 AM by Unavailable


> This has nothing to do with the D800. Non-Nikon Cameras would be a better place for your post !

Fair enough except the D800 is the biggest disappointment of 2012. A 50 year old reflex mirror complete with mirror blackout, noisy 4 fps, 80 year old mechanical shutter with 1990 vintage flash synch are a few of the let downs.

Nikon - particularly with cameras like the D800 - needs to get moving before they become the RIM Blackberry of the photo industry.

Doesn't it seem obvious that the barrier to entry is no longer DSLRs. It will not take much to build a class killing mirrorless camera and make it compatible with Nikon lenses? Exactly the opposite to what 3rd party lens manufacturers do today?

Besides, I want to know that D800 owners think. They bought a reflex camera. How many wish they had a better choice?

--

Craig

  

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gorji Silver Member  Jamesville, US  Nikonian since 07th Jan 2007 Thu 27-Sep-12 02:59 AM
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#4. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 3




>Fair enough except the D800 is the biggest disappointment of
>2012. A 50 year old reflex mirror complete with mirror
>blackout, noisy 4 fps, 80 year old mechanical shutter with
>1990 vintage flash synch are a few of the let downs.
>

I am not disappointed one bit with my D800. Do you have a D800?
-------------
Please visit my galleries: Reza Gorji Photography

  

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JECoutre Silver Member  Concord, US  Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2008 Fri 26-Oct-12 01:23 PM
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#94. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 4



>
>>Fair enough except the D800 is the biggest disappointment
>of
>>2012. A 50 year old reflex mirror complete with mirror
>>blackout, noisy 4 fps, 80 year old mechanical shutter
>with
>>1990 vintage flash synch are a few of the let downs.
>>
>
>I am not disappointed one bit with my D800. Do you have a
>D800?
>-------------
>Please visit my galleries:
>Reza Gorji Photography

Add me, +1

  

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klrbee25 Silver Member  Naples, US  Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2006 Thu 27-Sep-12 02:59 AM
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#5. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 3
Thu 27-Sep-12 03:48 AM by klrbee25


The only disappoint of the D800 was to those who couldn't get there hands on one when it was released. I'd bet most owners are beyond delighted with it.

The 4fps of the D800 isn't a mirror issue. It's a bandwidth and processing issue. With a crude calculation, the D800 shoots 50 megabyte RAW files and is thus processing 200 megabytes per second. Thats almost the transfer speed of a 7200rpm SATA hard drive and its actually crunching data at this rate. Not too shabby.

-Alex Rosen
www.flickr.com/photos/klrbee25/

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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DigitalDarrell Team Member Founding Member of the Nikonians writer Guild. Author of most of the NikoniansPress books. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Knoxville, US  Charter Member Thu 27-Sep-12 03:15 AM
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#6. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 3
Thu 27-Sep-12 05:36 AM by DigitalDarrell


The Nikon D800 is the best camera I have ever used in my 40+ years of photography.

I have no use for small bodied mirrorless cameras that can't handle abuse, don't have enough mass for handholding at slow shutter speeds, and aren't made to work with real professional lenses. I can't stand slow-updating electronic viewfinders that make it difficult to follow a rapidly moving subject. I want a camera I can hold onto and take pictures.

I don't mind playing with a mirrorless camera for fun or for snapshots at a party. However, for real work, I need a real camera. I like the sound of a mirror moving. It lets me know when I've captured an image. I know how to deal with vibrations.

I once dropped a Nikon D300S, SB-900 flash, and Nikkor lens down a flight of stairs at a wedding. I ran down the stairs and picked up the camera, put the flash back in the hotshoe, replaced the broken lens, and kept shooting the wedding. Try that with a delicate little ILC.

I wouldn't trade my Nikon D800 for ten mirrorless cameras. It's a real workhorse camera with the widest dynamic range of any commercial camera, the highest resolution images ever seen from a 35mm camera, and images you can make as big as a house, or crop as deeply as you'd like. The Nikon D800 has changed the world of photography. They can't make enough of them for buyer demand, even with the "personality" flaws it has.

Sony would love to capture a small portion of Nikon or Canon's market. If only they'd stop fooling around with translucent mirrors and mirrorless in general, they might make some progress. I don't recall seeing any little mirrorless cameras, or Sony cameras for that matter, with working pros at the Olympics or any other venue where photographers have no choice but to get the job done right now. Working photographers shoot with big DSLR cameras for a reason, not tiny little Coolpix-sized cameras you hang onto with two fingers. Try hanging a 600mm lens off of one of those and see what happens to its lens mount in the heat of getting the job done.

Nikon's D800/E cameras aren't cellphones, they are imaging devices made to be worked hard and get the job done now, with no excuses. World class!

UPDATE:
Craig, according to your profile, you own a D800 and some nice lenses. Are you really and truly dissatisfied with the technology in your new camera? Do you have any mirrorless cameras in mind that you feel can even approach the D800's image quality and size? If you do, I'd like to look into them. I hope Nikon comes out with a mirrorless camera with a large sensor. I'd love to have one for carrying around all the time that I'm not shooting commercially. Right now, I carry a D600/24-85mm for that purpose.




Digital Darrell

  

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NASattack Silver Member  Dartford, UK  Nikonian since 13th Feb 2008 Thu 27-Sep-12 06:03 AM
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#7. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 6



I want a D5!

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 11:37 AM
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#22. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 6



I think you folks are missing the point. 'Mirrorless' is a classic disruptive technology. Similar paradigm shifts have displaced market leaders several times in the last decade. Ask Nokia, RIM, Microsoft, Dell and HP. Each were caught saying "all is well".

Few manufacturers can overcome the complexity of a reflex camera. As such, it represents a significant barriers to market entry. It is much easier to build a good mirrorless camera. Canon and Nikon are reluctant to cut into their customer base by making a product in a new disruptive segment (another classic error made by market leaders).

I get the impression that "all is well" around here. Am I right?

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Fri 28-Sep-12 12:02 PM
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#23. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 22



>I think you folks are missing the point.

Well, we're just trying to respond to your question with honest opinions. It's not surprising we don't all see things the same way you do, but to be honest I'm not sure what point you are really making, anyway. If you think we all have our heads in the sand about mirrorless, I suggest you re-read some of these reasoned replies.

If Nikon launches a mirrorless camera that does everything my DSLR's do, and does it better, I will consider one. It's not financially feasible for me to switch to another system - but in any case I haven't seen a DSLR replacement that meets my needs from any manufacturer yet.

Brian
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:00 PM
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#27. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 23



>I'm not sure what point you are really making... If you think we all have our heads in the
>sand about mirrorless I suggest you re-read some of these reasoned replies....

I suggest you re-read my postings. My hypothesis is pretty clear: Mirrorless is a disruptive technology that is being essentially ignored by Nikon and Canon.

>If Nikon launches a mirrorless camera that does everything my
>DSLR's do, and does it better, I will consider one.

As I suggested previously: That camera will likely not come from Nikon. A superior camera - that uses Nikon lenses - could very well come from Sigma, Tokina, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, LG, Foxconn - or any decent electronics manufacturer. For the first time in history: The technological barrier to entry is lower for a camera than it is for lenses.

Nikon could very well become the Kodak of the digital age if they keep their head in the sand much longer.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:12 PM
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#29. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 27



I hope you'll forgive me if I don't share your pessimistic view of Nikon's (or Canon's) ability to innovate!

You may not remember Fujifilm's foray into offering a well-specified DSLR with a Nikon F-mount. They were nice cameras with some advantages over Nikon's then-current range, but the company chose to vacate that market segment after a few iterations.

I think you underestimate the problems (technical and legal) that a "3rd-party camera" maker might face.

Brian
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:38 PM
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#34. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 29



>I hope you'll forgive me if I don't share your pessimistic
>view of Nikon's (or Canon's) ability to innovate!
>
I would like to be optimistic. Microsoft knows how to innovate the PC. HP does the same with printers. RIM and Nokia haave many great engineers.

All of these dominant market leaders were blindsided by disruptive technologies.

>You may not remember Fujifilm's foray into offering a well-specified DSLR with a Nikon F-mount. ...

Point taken. I'll counter with the RED video camera {url]http://www.red.com. It completely changed the 2K and 4K video markets. Sony, Canon and Panasonic have never regained their lofty market shares.

I will also add: a mirrorless DSLR is many times less complex than a reflex DSLR. This opens up new opportunities for innovators to encroach on the legacy vendors.

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:53 PM
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#43. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 34




>I will also add: a mirrorless DSLR is many times less complex
>than a reflex DSLR.

Not really.

>This opens up new opportunities for
>innovators to encroach on the legacy vendors.

That's a statement without a rational foundation for realization. The cost of entry for a new player - an "innovator" as you put it - amounts to billions of dollars. Even for your so-called innovator to take the approach of attempting to license existing technologies for the purpose of assembling them into what the innovator believes is a better camera, assumes that the necessary or desired technology is actually licensable in the first place. It is not, and any attempt to circumvent the licensing barriers will crush the touted innovator under a mountain of legal pursuits. Not amusing. Some inventors in the past, having been caught using someone else's patented technology, have then taken up the argument that the big corporate monsters are conspiring to eliminate innovation and kill the small entrepreneur. It's nonsense. Small entrepreneurs who come up with interesting ideas often don't understand why the world isn't beating a path to their doors. But small entrepreneurs with good ideas have to learn how to compete in a very competitive world. Too many small entrepreneurs believe their inventiveness is sufficient in and of itself, and believe they're entitled to advantages therefore. More nonsense.

Of course all of this assumes that amateur, enthusiast and professional photographers are somehow disappointed at the efforts of Nikon, Canon, Fujifilm, Olympus and other camera makers. Nothing could be farther from the truth (although there will always be individuals who've imagined a particular feature and are consequently disappointed when Nikon doesn't come up with it).

Nikon, Canon and all their competitors are advancing brilliantly, while at the same time doing their best to maintain profitable businesses. Without substantially manipulable profits, continued and well-considered innovation which benefits photographers will not take place. As Ned has suggested so clearly already, photographers by and large do not care about mirrorless vs. reflex, but rather gravitate toward cameras with which they believe they can make the best photos and video.

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Fri 28-Sep-12 02:51 PM
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#35. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 27



Seriously Craig, I'm I wrong that the Nikon 1 camera's are mirrorless? If they are mirrorless (Of course they are and we all know it.) then we know they aren't ignoring the technology.

Moreover, do you really think that Nikon, and Canon for that matter, have that heads in the sand so far that they aren't working on developing MDSL cameras to eventually replace their DSLRs, but are just not talking about it?

Wow, you must think that Nikon and Canon employ a bunch of idiots. I think you're underestimating them and the difficulty of producing an MDSL.

Ned
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:02 PM
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#55. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 35



>Seriously Craig, I'm I wrong that the Nikon 1 camera's are
>mirrorless? If they are mirrorless (Of course they are and we
>all know it.) then we know they aren't ignoring the
>technology.
>
>Moreover, do you really think that Nikon, and Canon for that
>matter, have that heads in the sand so far that they aren't
>working on developing MDSL cameras to eventually replace their
>DSLRs, but are just not talking about it?
>
>Wow, you must think that Nikon and Canon employ a bunch of
>idiots. I think you're underestimating them and the difficulty
>of producing an MDSL.

Nikon and Canon are "a bunch of idiots" in the same way as Microsoft and Dell are a "bunch of idiots". (Your words not mine). In the case of the latter, they made poor attempts at tablets that ultimately never sold well. They took care to not disturb their main product lines (PC's) with any new technology that would disrupt marketshare. They even went as far as saying 'tablets will not work' or 'tablets are intended only for a small set of applications'.

We all know that Apple came along and executed on a tablet strategy that is on the verge of killing PC's as a mainstream product.

The Nikon 1 is NOT a mirrorless DSLR (that would disrupt a core business). Nikon's efforts DO remind me of Microsoft's now dead windows tablet.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:24 PM
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#58. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 55
Sun 30-Sep-12 09:42 PM by briantilley



edited for spelling!

Re-reading the thread, I'm afraid it's not clear what type of camera you're referring to when you say "mirrorless", which is making the debate rather pointless.

Clearly you don't think the Nikon 1 system meets your definition, but what does? The current Sony offerings - which they term "SLT" cameras - have a mirror, but unlike traditional SLR's it is translucent and fixed, so does not flip up to reveal the shutter and film/sensor. I'm not aware of anyone else offering this technology (yet...).

So - what is it that you mean?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Sun 30-Sep-12 10:15 PM
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#67. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 55



First, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. For example, I haven't called Nikon or Canon or Microsoft or Dell a "bunch of idiots." In fact I've never discussed Microsoft or Dell in this thread.

Before you were talking about building cameras using mirrorless technology. You didn't specify mirrorless DSLR's.

For example, you've said, "Few manufacturers can overcome the complexity of a reflex camera. As such, it represents a significant barriers to market entry. It is much easier to build a good mirrorless camera. Canon and Nikon are reluctant to cut into their customer base by making a product in a new disruptive segment (another classic error made by market leaders)." I see no inference of DSLR here, but let's talk about mirrorless DSLR's.

Now, lets look at what a DSLR is. The classic definition would be, a DSLR is digital image camera with interchangeable lenses which uses a single lens reflex (SLR) mechanism. By reflex, we're traditionally talking about the bending, turning, or throwing back of light, ie. reflecting (what the mirror does.)

A mirrorless DSLR camera doesn't necessarily mean a purely optical reflex camera. For example, a mirrorless camera could take the image on the main sensor, and electronically show it on a screen which would be the viewfinder. Such a camera would be misidentified if we're only talking traditionally, but should we? I don't think so. In the instance I've defined, the camera mechanism electronically routes the light coming into the camera from the sensor (film) to the viewfinder rather than use a prism or mirror or other optical device. To me it's as much a DSLR as any.

Now let's look at the Nikon 1. It's a digital image camera, is it not? It uses interchangeable lenses for sure. It has a sensor, albeit not 35mm in size, but most DSLR's don't use a 35mm sized sensor. Okay, its viewfinder doesn't get the image optically, but so what. It gets it like my example above. I think you're hung up on its appearance. It doesn't look like a traditional DSLR. Is there any reason it should?

But really, none of that should matter to the question you've raised about Nikon and Canon, that they are at best behind the times because they aren't developing mirrorless DSLR's and are going to die because they are still manufacturing DSLR's with "a 50 year old reflex mirror."

To start, as has been pointed out, while the concept of the mirror for the reflex isn't new, the technology in the DSLR is far from old. That includes the shutter and mirror mechanisms, for example.

Frankly, in my opinion, your position is based on wild assumptions and rampant speculation as I suspect you have no special insider knowledge of Nikon or Canon plans for the future, products under development, or future marketing strategies. If you have special knowledge which the rest of us are not privy, please lay it out.

I don't know what Nikon and Canon are planning either, but I can make an educated guess, based on their patents and such products as Nikon 1. I believe they are working to develop an eventual product line based on new and emerging technologies including mirrorless, which will likely supplant the traditional DSLR we know now. In other words, I think your rant makes little sense, but that's just my opinion.

You asked, "Besides, I want to know that D800 owners think. They bought a reflex camera. How many wish they had a better choice?"

I think you've gotten your answer in this thread, and it's not the answer you expected, likely because we come to your question from a different point of view. That's the way it is.

I think we all believe you're entitled to your opinion and your point of view, and that the discourse should be civil, but at the same time I'm hoping you make your points about the issues in the future with a little more esprit de corps, and with the same value placed on others' opinions as you place on your own.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:18 PM
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#38. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 27
Fri 28-Sep-12 04:04 PM by agitater


>Nikon could very well become the Kodak of the digital age if
>they keep their head in the sand much longer.

Panicky-sounding, unsubstantiated, inaccurate nonsense. Nikon and Canon (among others) continue to be successful because they design, develop and produce products which embody what photographers of all kinds want and need. As both companies continue their separate mirrorless and reflex development platforms, I predict they'll do extremely well and likely continue to lead.

But seriously, who on earth cares if Nikon or Canon or any other camera maker happens to lead the market now or at some point in the future? We're all photographers here on Nikonians, who also happen to be using Nikon gear. We're not Nikon employees fearing for our jobs if Nikon somehow falls lower down the heap at some point.

We're not Nikon fanboys (or fangirls), and if you don't get that, then you really haven't read some of the critically abrasive threads incessantly deriding the mistakes that Nikon has made over the years. Nikonians are harder on Nikon and demand more from Nikon than any other group of photographers or consumers anywhere in the world.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:08 PM
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#56. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 38



>>Nikon could very well become the Kodak of the digital age
>if
>>they keep their head in the sand much longer.
>
>Panicky-sounding, unsubstantiated, inaccurate nonsense. Nikon
>and Canon (among others) continue to be successful because
>they design, develop and produce products which embody what
>photographers of all kinds want and need. As both companies
>continue their separate mirrorless and reflex development
>platforms, I predict they'll do extremely well and likely
>continue to lead.

Market leading companies rare reinvent themselves when a cheaper and better technology comes along. DSLR makers thrive on $3K devices that few others can make money with (the complexity barrier keeps others out of the market). Mirrorless breaks the barrier. A $500 device will soon beat every $3K device ever made. There is a very good chance that Nikon will be caught flat footed - just like Kodak - who had numerous digital patents and a strategy to enter the digital market. They just couldn't kill their cash cow (film) and reinvest seriously in digital before it was too late.

Ask Sony about the Walkman if you think this is an isolated occurrence...

--

Craig

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Sun 30-Sep-12 10:30 PM
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#69. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 56



OK Craig. Enough speculation. Where's your evidence that,

1. Mirrorless technology alone will make it possible to break the $3K price barrier for an upper level DSLR style camera, and bring its sales price down to the $500 level.

Especially consider that the Nikon D3200 with a 24.2 megapixel DX-format CMOS sensor using mirror technology sells for $700 and takes darn great photos.

2. Nikon will likely be caught flat footed in the digital camera market and shivel up like Kodak because they are eschewing development of mirrorless DSLR cameras.

Ned
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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Mon 01-Oct-12 12:56 AM
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#74. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 56
Mon 01-Oct-12 01:32 AM by agitater


>Market leading companies rare reinvent themselves when a
>cheaper and better technology comes along.

Another logical fallacy. What examples exist that we should care about one way or another?

>DSLR makers thrive
>on $3K devices that few others can make money with (the
>complexity barrier keeps others out of the market).

The sentence you've written is utterly senseless.

>Mirrorless breaks the barrier. A $500 device will soon beat
>every $3K device ever made.

You state this as though it's revelatory, which is nonsense. Lower priced devices designed with the benefit of a company's previous successes have always produced new, lower cost devices that exceed the capabilities of older more expensive deviices.

>There is a very good chance that
>Nikon will be caught flat footed

That's more fantastic nonsense unsupported by a single fact of any kind.

>Ask Sony about the Walkman if you think this is an isolated
>occurrence...

Sony? What on earth does Sony have to do with anything beyond the fact that it collaborates with Nikon and other camera makers to produce sensors, and beyond the fact that Sony collects hundreds of millions of dollars in licensing fees every year because of all its patents arising from technology efforts such as the Walkman. Sounds like a version of success, not failure.

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spootdad   Portage, US  Registered since 27th Dec 2006 Sun 30-Sep-12 05:09 PM
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#54. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 27



My hypothesis is pretty clear: Mirrorless is a disruptive technology that is being essentially ignored by Nikon and Canon

It is not a disruptive technology at this time. It is only an interesting technology that, unless it can be shown that the advances people want can be achieved, will remain interesting to hobbyists and few others.
From the rocking of the cradle to the rolling of the hearse, the going up was worth the coming down

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Fri 28-Sep-12 01:45 PM
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#26. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 22



Craig, I don't think we're missing the point at all.

It's just that we're, speaking for myself, not going to change to a new technology just to make a change. We want the new disruptive technology to give us an advantage over the current technology.

That would mean we get everything we have now, plus! In addition, considering the significant investment many have in lenses, and in more than a few cases we're talking in excess of $30K in lenses for our enthusiasts and pros, we want to be able to continue to use that investment with the new mirrorless camera.

Okay this will take a little while to read, but it makes my point clearly.

Craig, for many years I used a cellphone and a PDA. As it turns out, I was an early adopter of both. My first cellphone was a transportable, a "cell phone in a bag" which you may or may not remember according to your age. The thing was huge. I used an external antenna with it when it was in my car, which was most of the time. I got it because it was soooo much less expensive to use being a "cell" phone, than my prior car phone, which was a "radio" phone which seem to take up half my trunk. I had the transportable which really wasn't portable at all, for several years until Nokia finally came out with a small handset which actually consistently worked. The Nokia had enough inside it to be able to use it in the car without an external antenna, and outside, plus even in buildings, and it was actually portable. I then slowly changed phones for a while as the old ones didn't last all that long, and they added some useful features.

First the transportable, then more so, the cell phone handset were the disruptive technology of which you're speaking. In each case I disrupted because the new technology was a significant upgrade for me. The products did the job better because of the technology change. I didn't change to the new equipment just because it was new technology. It was the handset that really changed things because of the huge difference its jump in technology made to the usefulness of the product, even though the transportable was the more disruptive of the two, but it just wasn't good enough to capture the masses.

Kind of at the same time, I eschewed my pocket calendar and contact list and got a Palm Pilot. While this was disruptive technology too, it took several iterations to make huge inroads because in its early versions the computer software which came with it, and the computers weren't good enough. Getting the data into the PDA wasn't worth the effort for many. A lot of people forget the problems of the earlier Palms and their counterparts which didn't quite make it.

Eventually, Palm came out with the Treo. The first true "high quality" smartphone. Oh there were Windows smartphones, and with the Treo they had apps, and they were another disruptive technology, but it was the Treo which really changed things because it was as good as its Palm predecessors as a PDA, and was actually a very good phone. There were other smartphones before it, but it was the Treo that changed things because it could actually do the job well.

Unfortunately for Palm, they weren't Apple, as the iPhone disrupted every smartphone, and finally got rid of the PDA market altogether with its big beautiful screen based product, which combined the PDA, with the cellphone, and the MP3/video player. The difference between the other disruptive cellphone/PDA technologies and the iPhone was that it offered with its original product a quality which was already ahead of everyone else and was as good or better than any of the competition's individual products, or combos.

It isn't enough to be new and disruptive when you're trying to knock out the competition.

I very much disagree with your statement, speaking about building I assume, a functional equivalent of DSLR which is mirrorless. "It is much easier to build a good mirrorless camera." If that was true, there already would be a mirrorless version of a quality DSLR, but there isn't. There isn't one mirrorless equivalent of the D7000, for example, and the reason is, it's extremely hard to create an ergonomic mirrorless camera, with the feature set of a D7000, it's quality, it's focus, and metering ability, etc. in a camera which can use lenses for handholding from fisheye through 300mm, and with a tripod, to 600mm and longer.

Nikon has an excellent mirrorless camera in the Nikon 1, so obviously, they believe the technology is important, and can be a monster game changer eventually. The Nikon 1 is a great camera, in its own right, but it can't compete with my D4, or even my backup D700. My educated guess is that Nikon understands the handwriting on the wall that eventually it's highly likely a MDSL "35mm" camera spec will supplant DSLRs, but they haven't been able to design one which beats out the current product line. I'd bet they are putting millions into figuring out how to make MDSL's in the future, to take the place of today's DSLR's.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't care how disruptive the technology is, if you can't use it to produce a superior product.

One last thing. The concept of the inner-workings of the Nikon D800 may be the same as my old Nikon Photomic FTn which I purchased in 1968, 44 years ago, but I assure you the insides of the D800 are very much 21st century. If they weren't significantly updated from my old camera, the D800 couldn't do what it does. I do agree it's technology is not disruptive, but it sure works great.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:17 PM
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#57. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 26



Go out really try a Sony NEX-7 and convince me that such a camera does not represent the future.

I accept that mechanical improvements have been made in DSLRs. Very nice - and these changes would be worthwhile if you couldn't do better with an alternate technology.

I am sure they cam make VCR's better today than 40 years ago - but few of care today. Why do you think reflex cameras will do any better?

--

Craig

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Sun 30-Sep-12 10:59 PM
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#71. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 57



I had one to review about 14 months ago. I think it is a good camera for what it is and gave it a good, review, but if you want to compare it to a D700 or D800 or the D7000 it's not in the same class in almost every way imaginable. Comparing it that would wouldn't be fair.

If you want to talk about the mirrorless technology it has, as does the Nikon 1, then I will say and have said that it's wonderful technology which will make a big difference in many ways for photography, even at the professional level, when added to all the other technologies and design parameters which set pro cameras apart from other cameras.

If you want to talk about consumer level cameras then I might come to agree more with you, but you keep talking about the $3K and more expensive cameras.

While apparently you disagree, there is much more to these cameras than the viewfinder and shutter mechanisms, much more.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:54 PM
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#36. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 22
Fri 28-Sep-12 03:09 PM by agitater


>I think you folks are missing the point. 'Mirrorless' is a
>classic disruptive technology. Similar paradigm shifts have
>displaced market leaders several times in the last decade.
>Ask Nokia, RIM, Microsoft, Dell and HP. Each were caught
>saying "all is well".

The first mention or suggestion that mirrorless might be a "disruptive technology" was and remains in a Wikipedia article here. The Nikon, Canon and Sigma reps I talk to don't think mirrorless is distuptive though. Nikon and Canon have been working on mirrorless for years, simply because that's how long it takes to bring such products to market. Does anyone think that the companies come up with a completely new mirrorless platform overnight? It takes years. Their view of mirrorless is that it is just another product development vector. Mirorless has been around in point & shoot cameras for too many years to count. There's very little that is new about it, and nothing disruptive about it. The Wikipedia article author offers no explanation or citation for his/her use of the words "disruptive technology" nor do you offer any support for your use of the term "classic disruptive technology."

I apologize to all Nikonians, right here and now, for taking the bait offered by the OP. I'm sorry - couldn't help myself.

Your use of logical fallacies is epic, by the way. I love the Nokia, RIM, Microsoft, Dell and HP references. What you don't get (or perhaps what you don't care to get) is that just as some companies ignore certain new developments, so too do many other companies embrace such new development - in this situation companies such as Nikon and Canon, that are embarked on mirrorless development tracks alongside everything else both companies do successfully. I think that every time a big company like Nikon or Canon successfully add a new product platform while still maintaining and advancing development of existing product platforms, they're managing extremely well indeed.

>Few manufacturers can overcome the complexity of a reflex
>camera. As such, it represents a significant barriers to
>market entry. It is much easier to build a good mirrorless
>camera. Canon and Nikon are reluctant to cut into their
>customer base by making a product in a new disruptive segment
>(another classic error made by market leaders).

Absolute tripe and nonsense. The camera makers know more about multi-platform product development than ever before. Even Leica is now running, separately successful reflex and mirror product dev tracks. And what does the phrase "overcome the complexity of a reflex camera" mean? Sound and reads like a non sequitur. You also repeatedly write in a way that fails to acknowledge the versatility of product platforms offered by Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus and Pentax, all of which develop reflex cameras, mirrorless cameras, and scientific optical devices and instrumentation that actually establish the state of the art.

>I get the impression that "all is well" around here.
> Am I right?

Yes.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:26 PM
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#59. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 36



>The Nikon, Canon and Sigma reps I talk to don't think mirrorless is disruptive...

That's the problem.


>>I get the impression that "all is well" around here.
>> Am I right?
>
>Yes.

With no demand from its base, Nikon will fall behind its competition in the new marketplace. Customers will hang on at first. Many will begin switch - unhappily. Nikon may never recover marketshare in the new segment - and the customers they lose will never come back.

Remind anyone of RIM?]

--

Craig

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Sun 30-Sep-12 11:29 PM
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#72. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 59



Craig, this is my last post in the thread, as the thread is going nowhere.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's one of the many points you've decided to ignore to make your arguments.

You are not even remotely close to right when you say that Nikon owners are satisfied with their Nikon products, Nikon sales, Nikon support, and Nikon service. And in fact Nikonians (members) are among the most critical of Nikon and have been for years. One only has to look through these forums to see that.

Moreover, one only has to recount the quick acceptance of the Nikon 1 mirrorless system by many Nikon more standard DSLR owners, to see how Nikonians (members) are more than willing to embrace new and emerging technologies when it makes for better cameras.

In fact, the message Nikon is getting from its Nikon 1 system, and from sales of its rivals of their mirrorless systems is that this is good stuff, let's incorporate it in more cameras as part of the overall system, but the incorporation can't be driving force itself. The driving force must be to produce a better camera overall than what we have today.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Mon 01-Oct-12 01:09 AM
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#75. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 59




>With no demand from its base, Nikon will fall behind its
>competition in the new marketplace. Customers will hang on at
>first. Many will begin switch - unhappily. Nikon may never
>recover marketshare in the new segment - and the customers
>they lose will never come back.

You've made up a complete fiction containing disaster for Nikon. Your position doesn't reflect any current reality (or facts).

>Remind anyone of RIM?

Nope. Nikon's successes continue unabated. RIM added two million customers in Europe last quarter. Reports of RIM's death are premature, especially with BB10 on the way and IT getting progressively more upset having to deal with increasing numbers of insecure iOS and Android smartphones.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 01:44 PM
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#25. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 6



Well put.

Let me give you a entrepreneur's view of a DSLR like the D800.

1: Where's the ISO wheel? We have direct control of aperture and shutter speed? Why not ISO?

2. Auto ISO does not use VR. Why Not?

3. Auto ISO isn't needed anyway. We can have exposure automation that varies one of aperture, shutter speed or ISO, and automates the other two. Then the next level of automation sets two of aperture, shutter speed and ISO, and automates the other. Note to Nikon: ISO is not special. Please get over it.

4. 400K shutter life? Why not infinite? Shutter MTBFs are based on a needless mechanical mirror and an arguably needless mechanical shutter curtain. Nikon and Canon insist both are essential for fairly obvious reasons. Pretty soon we will see they are not. Completely electronic exposure in the camera body will mean virtually limitless 'shutter' life. Of course you should also think about the mechanical aperture in the lens (that could be replaced by an LCD - but let's walk be before we run)

5. OLED viewfinder. The advantages are almost too many to list:

a) works better in low light - can even switch to IR to see in virtual darkness.
b) show live color balance.
c) no viewfinder blackout i.e., continuous view
d) almost limitless of overlay data. Programmable, customizable and personalized.
e) playback in split screen while photographing (shoot and review at the same time)
f) zoom to focus right up to the pixel level
g) borrow term from Apple: retina viewfinders - use multiple display pixels to render a single physical pixel

6. Device control - Wirelessly change/update/save camera settings with my phone or tablet. Same goes for taking images.


Aside from using the pixel density equal to a D7000 on a larger sensor, the D800 did not innovate in many areas. As an inventor, Nikon and Canon DSLRs continue to leave me uninspired.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:04 PM
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#28. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 25



I thought the debate was about mirrorless or SLR? Most of your points apply equally to both types of camera.

>2. Auto ISO does not use VR.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean there

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:27 PM
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#31. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 28



>I thought the debate was about mirrorless or SLR? Most of
>your points apply equally to both types of camera.
>
>>2. Auto ISO does not use VR.
>
>I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean there

The D800 Auto ISO algorithm is Nikon's best ever. It will use a different shutter speed threshold when it detects a focal length change. For example: The D800 can now increment ISO when the SS drops to 1/60 for a 50mm lens and at 1/200 for a 200mm lens.

The D800 does not use a lower SS threshold when VR is in use. In the scenario above, 1/60 is arguably a more appropriate threshold for bumping ISO when a 200mm VR lens is being used. The mind boggles at how Nikon missed this one.

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:05 PM
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#37. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 31



I tend to agree with Ned. I can think of ten or fifteen technical features, none of which have yet been mentioned by the OP, that could also be designed and developed by Nikon engineers. But to what end? Coming up with new feature and function ideas, and then suggesting that Nikon and Canon are somehow losing it because the companies haven't developed and implemented such features, is simply an urgent position based on an individual's personal desires or perspective. It has nothing to do with the future of either company, no matter how much the OP suggests or implies that all of this ideas are absolute necessities in order for Nikon to succeed in the future. It's just more logical fallacies.

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Vox Sciurorum   Newton, US  Registered since 18th Oct 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:21 PM
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#39. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 31



Auto ISO uses field of view, not focal length. Go into DX crop mode and shutter speed increases. This doesn't make sense if you're looking at pixels because the pixels don't change size. The D800 is designed for people who don't care about individual pixels. Nikon figures 36 million bad pixels can turn into something worthwhile. Bad could mean smeared by motion blur or degraded by high ISO. You can also see this attitude in the View NX crop tool, which doesn't care if it's off by a pixel from the size or aspect ratio it says you picked. If you're printing an 8x10 containing most of the original image, Nikon is right.

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:31 PM
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#40. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 39



They are actually using full frame equivalent. DX Crop mode creates an equivalent focal length of 1.5x the lens. That makes sense and is the same thing we suggest for shutter speed. The full frame equivalent is a value in the EXIF data so it is simple to create the function.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:27 PM
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#60. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 40



>They are actually using full frame equivalent. DX Crop mode
>creates an equivalent focal length of 1.5x the lens. That
>makes sense and is the same thing we suggest for shutter
>speed. The full frame equivalent is a value in the EXIF data
>so it is simple to create the function.
>


You could have been nice enough to say I was right. I have a patent in this area, so I know am right.

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:36 PM
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#41. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 31
Fri 28-Sep-12 03:55 PM by agitater


>The D800 does not use a lower SS threshold when VR is in use.
>In the scenario above, 1/60 is arguably a more appropriate
>threshold for bumping ISO when a 200mm VR lens is being used.
>The mind boggles at how Nikon missed this one.

Nonsense. There is nothing to miss. Your theory or proposal or suggestion, whatever it is, assumes that most photographers can handhold steadily with VR on at the threshold of VR's technical stabilization limit. That's a broad assumption not supported by facts of any kind. The majority of photographers do not unerringly capture sharp images using VR because of three factors. First their physical hand/body movements, heart pump movements, poor physical stability due to improper stance or stance on unstable footing, causes movement beyond which VR can compensate. Second, many photographers shooting VR-enabled from a tripod have also not properly stabilized the tripod in windy or otherwise unstable conditions. Third, even when the aforementioned issues have been effectively addressed, a significant portion of photographers are also choosing focus targets which provide insufficient information for the camera to establish an accurate focus lock.

We cannot expect any of the current technology, reflex or mirrorless, to perform miracles. Just as true too, we should never believe absolutely the marketing claims by Nikon or any other makers about how their VR/OS/IS/VC systems provide four or five stops of advantage. Reviewers, including me, have repeatedly put such claims to the lie. Of course there are a few photographers out there who are so rock steady that they can pull off such amazing stability tricks using VR, but it's rate.

Anyway, that's why Nikon doesn't lower the threshold even more when VR is in use.

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Fri 28-Sep-12 02:38 PM
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#33. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 25



Craig, I was going to go over your points one by one, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with the mirrorless vs. mirror question, until I got to your last point, when the light came on for me.

You said, "Aside from using the pixel density equal to a D7000 on a larger sensor, the D800 did not innovate in many areas. As an inventor, Nikon and Canon DSLRs continue to leave me uninspired."

So then I saw why your point of view makes so little sense to me, why it seems to me you're barking up such a totally different tree than the vast majority of us are. It's a communications problem. We didn't understand your point of view, which is completely different from mine, and I believe most of us.

You're looking at these cameras from the point of view of an inventor. You're looking at and for innovation, innovation, and more innovation, perhaps with every new model released to the public.

On the other hand, I believe that most if not just about every one of us look at these cameras as photographers. These cameras are our paint brushes, if you will. We care about what they will do for us to create a wonderful, exciting image, or document an event well, or capture an image which can then be seen differently than with our eyes in real time, etc.

The tool itself, our cameras, don't have to be exciting themselves, they just have to work well. It's our images which have to excite us.

We'll worry about innovation when it helps make better cameras overall which would help us make better images, and we'll eventually buy the innovative cameras, once we feel their difference will really make a difference for us.

For us it's all about the images we make, not the equipment we use. I'd bet, if we would make an inventory of every Nikonian's cameras, we'd find that more people than you can imagine are still using D70's, D2H's, D200's, and other "out of date" dinosaurs of cameras, and loving them, and making incredible, exciting, wonderful images.

Call us anything you want including crazy, but, we'll worry about innovation when it helps make better cameras overall which would help us make better images.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:33 PM
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#61. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 33



This thread initially started with mirrorless. We have since switched talking about market leaders who are negatively affected by disruptive technologies. Mirrorless is at the root of the problems that will affect Nikon in the next couple of years.

As a market leader, they don't have to fix many of the problems I mention. They only have to be 'good enough'. But since Nikon is unlikely to lead us into the mirrorless DSLR market, these other features will likely bite them when a $500 camera does everything I suggest.

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Mon 01-Oct-12 01:19 AM
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#76. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 61




>As a market leader, they don't have to fix many of the
>problems I mention.

Or any of them, because the problems you describe either don't actually exist or may not be anything about which consumers care. That a camera maker may be uninterested in pursuing a dev path you prescribe seems more like a problem for you rather than the camera maker. Now I'm wondering if Nikon recently turned down a proposal of yours.

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Hawk Eyes   US  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 27-Sep-12 07:07 AM
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#8. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 3
Thu 27-Sep-12 07:09 AM by Hawk Eyes


Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and in my opinion I think yours is a joke Mr Unavailable !

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:18 PM
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#30. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 8



>Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and in my
>opinion I think yours is a joke Mr Unavailable !

No personal attacks please. You are entitled to your opinion but discussing the merits of my assertions is more appropriate in this thread.

Oh. And I'm not joking.

--

Craig

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:31 PM
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#32. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 8



Pete - Craig's right - your comment is not appropriate in any discussion at Nikonians.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Thu 27-Sep-12 03:13 PM
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#13. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 3



Craig, here's one pro photographers view, speaking solely for myself.

Right now my main camera is a D4, with a D700 backup. Likely, when the D700 reaches near or at it's use (actuation) limit, which will occur sometime next spring, I will replace it with a D800.

You asked, "How many wish they had a better choice?" The obvious answer is "Yes," but I don't think the answer is really that obvious.

I'd like a pro camera with a lifespan well in excess of 400,000 actuations. I'd like a pro camera with a high quality built-in GPS. I'd like a pro camera with a truly silent shutter (and a mode which would make a little noise, not a beep, so I know it's working for normal use) which would still have the full power (quality) of the sensor and all features, and would utilize either the viewfinder or the monitor. I want a pro camera with a variable angle, movable monitor screen.

I want a pro camera which will be large enough to easily be held in my hands. I want a pro camera which will have easy and full access to my main controls and shutter release when I rotate the camera vertically. I want a pro camera which will have both a viewfinder and a monitor in which to compose the photo. I want the viewfinder because for most shooting of still photos, and even video, it is far more useful for handholding the camera for shooting to hold the camera still, and even the best VR or OS, on every camera I've ever tested, doesn't compensate nearly as much as my forehead helps to keep the camera steady. I want a pro camera which has a viewfinder and a monitor which shows what my photo will look like when I take it, not just 95% or 98%, or even 99% what it will look like.

I want a pro camera which will not force me to basically toss my considerable investment in lenses and other important and expensive gear such as speedlights.

Of course there are many other important features and factors, but I think you get the point.

I think that mirrorless cameras are the future of still photography. The question in my mind isn't that, but what will surround the new technology. As there is much more to a DSLR than megapixels, there is much more to a mirrorless camera than the light path from the subject to our eyes.

I kind of look at my camera as a black box in which I don't care what's in it. (I really don't because knowing what's in the box and it's specs and quality helps me choose my box, but I think the metaphor is valid.) I care about what the black box can do for me and how well it accomplishes that task. I don't care if the internal workings of the box are "old fashioned." I care how and if the black box meets my needs.

That being said, I can't quite stop there. I do care that Nikon doesn't become the RIM of the camera world, though I hardly think we are at the point now, nor necessarily heading there, as I can't believe Nikon isn't seriously working on a line of mirrorless pro DSLR-like cameras for the future. I care about Nikon moving toward new technology, when it's ready, because if they don't, my investment in their products will be devalued to zero in the future, and it's a big investment.

I'm just not interested in a mirrorless camera for its new technology's sake. It has to do the job I want, the way I want to work.

So, would I like my camera to have the advantages of mirrorless technology? Of course! But then again, as they say, "The Devil's in the details." I don't want just any mirrorless camera, I want a great one which doesn't toss out my lenses, equals or betters the quality of photographic and video output I have now, has what I think is the necessary feature set, is flexible as to setup, can be held comfortably and easily, and steadily, etc., etc., etc.

Frankly, while the technology is no doubt intriguing and the future, I haven't seen a single mirrorless camera out there which makes me think its future for me is close to the horizon.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 04:01 PM
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#44. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 13



Ned - I completely agree.

I think the OP, quite likely an entrepreneur himself IMO, also misses the fact that a camera design which attempts to include everything he can think of, leaves far less room for other entrepreneurs to develop third-party accessories such as external GPS units, and a very long list of other things.

The major camera makers understand and appreciate the eco-system of third-party products which grow up around (and dependent on) all popular camera platforms.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:52 PM
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#62. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 44



I do agree with both of you on this part of the thread: Nikon has built a terrific ecosystem around DLSRs. And I will argue: it's the best system I have found. I hope so, after investing $10K+ in nikon equipment .

I am saying the relfex DSLR will simply disappear when a real mirrorless competitor emerges. That could happen in 2015 - and it could start tomorrow. Then the ecosystem will switch to support that type of camera.

I bought the worlds finest Sony XBR tube television few years back. Experts agreed: Plasma and then LCDs were never going displace CRT's. No way. Not in our lifetime.

Anyone still think that's true.

That's how disruptive technologies work. They invalidate and changes complete ecosystem.

I know this thread looks like 50 people disagreeing with one. How can 50 people be wrong? It will be interesting to find this thread in five years. Who do you will be right then?

I am not trying to be a troll or pick a fight. I simply saying this type of change has happened before. Why don't we learn more from history? I would also like Nikon to be a leader in the real mirrorless market when it arrives.

Sadly, market leaders rarely come out on top after a disruptive shift unless they seriously reinvent themselves along the way. Saying mirrorless is no threat, will not help Nikon with the hard choices they will have to make.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Thu 27-Sep-12 09:11 AM
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#9. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Your poll is missing what to me is quite an obvious response - "I will buy a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera, but it will not replace my DSLR system".

That's what I would have voted for, because I already have a Fuji X-Pro1 (and two D3s's)

Since this poll has been moved to our English Cafe, I think it would be better to drop the above discussion about the D800. Thanks!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Peterdan Silver Member  Lebanon, US  Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012 Thu 27-Sep-12 11:26 AM
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#10. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 9



It's just me but I can't live with out a viewfinder. I have tried live view and just don't like it.

I am not a number. I am a free man!

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benveniste Moderator Awarded for is high level skills in various areas, including Macro and Landscape Photography Donor Ribbon. Awarded for his generous suppport to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Boston Area, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2002 Thu 27-Sep-12 01:29 PM
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#11. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 9



While I can easily see myself buying an EVIL camera with a smaller sensor size, I can't really see maintaining two systems with a 24x36mm frame.

One of the biggest mistakes a photographer can make is to look at the real world and cling to the vain hope that next time his film will somehow bear a closer resemblance to it. - Galen Rowell

  

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Leatham Gold Member  Table Top, AU  Nikonian since 09th Jul 2012 Sat 29-Sep-12 01:33 AM
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#45. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 9



How much quieter is your X-Pro1? I am planning to get an X-E1 because my D300 is too big and noisy to use at classical music rehearsals where I spend a lot of my time. I need a lightweight, silent camera with high speed primes to run at ISO 6400, mostly for B&W output.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sat 29-Sep-12 09:28 AM
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#46. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 45



Quietness is difficult to quantify accurately without sound detection equipment...!

The X-Pro1 is noticeably quieter than any SLR I've used, but at the same time it isn't completely noise-free. The shutter is audible from a few feet away, and the AF isn't silent either.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Leatham Gold Member  Table Top, AU  Nikonian since 09th Jul 2012 Sat 29-Sep-12 10:41 AM
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#47. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 46



Thanks for that. I am seldom rushed for a shot so I maybe I can focus manually for some further reduction in camera noise. Firing my D300 into a string orchestra rehearsal never goes down well.

Another major problem is the lack of lighting, typically EV 4 or 5 and often in ghastly fluorescents or weird coloured stage lights. It is always well below a level where my D300 can give me any useful depth of field or smooth dynamic range.

I would prefer to shoot in B&W. How are the in-camera monochrome images from the Fuji? Do you know of any full size samples on the web?

I will certainly have a very close look when the X-E1 hits the shops as there doesn't seem to be a viable Nikon alternative.

The D300 still works well enough most times outdoors where I suspect that driver error is the limiting factor. I don't want an even more complicated camera!

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sat 29-Sep-12 10:49 AM
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#48. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 47



I haven't tried the in-camera black & white mode yet. If I want B&W with my DSLR's I shoot as normal and convert in post-processing, as I find it gives me more control.

I suspect the X-Pro1 will be a little better than a D300 in image quality terms in low light; AF will be slower, but if you'd be using MF because of the noise that shouldn't be a problem

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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PAStime Silver Member  Kingston, CA  Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009 Sun 30-Sep-12 04:10 PM
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#53. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 9



>Your poll is missing what to me is quite an obvious response
>- "I will buy a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera,
>but it will not replace my DSLR system".

That's my position too.

Peter

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 09:59 PM
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#63. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 53



>>Your poll is missing what to me is quite an obvious
>response
>>- "I will buy a mirrorless interchangeable lens
>camera,
>>but it will not replace my DSLR system".
>
>That's my position too.
>
>Peter

That's fair. And I believe that option would have got the most votes. But it would tell next to nothing.

VCR owners in 1990's would have said the same thing as they bought their first DVD players and then PVR's. They never intended to abandon their 'current system'. I believe they would have answered like you suggest.

Today, we know that most people didn't continue to use their VCR system as they planned.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sun 30-Sep-12 10:07 PM
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#64. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 63



>VCR owners in 1990's would have said the same thing as they
>bought their first DVD players and then PVR's.

It's perhaps easier with hindsight, but that's not how I saw it at the time.

The first domestic DVD players lacked a record facility, but from the previous development of recordable CD technology, it was pretty clear which way things would go - VHS was immediately moribund. I don't think that's the same situation as mirrorless (whatever that is) and DSLR.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas   Richmond, US  Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004 Thu 27-Sep-12 02:31 PM
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#12. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I like to think of myself as pragmatic. I think of myself as buying photographic tools to solve photographic problems. So far, my Nikons have mostly been able to solve the photography problems that I have encountered and decided to solve. The exception is the highly portable, small size niche, where I gave Nikon several chances and they failed at all of them. So I bought a Fuji x10.

Whether or not I would buy a mirrorless camera, full frame or not, with interchangeable lenses, depends entirely on what problem it would solve in my photographic life that is not already solved. I could see an EVIL camera replacing the x10, for example, if it were more flexible about lenses, particularly wide angle lenses - but only if it retains the quality of small and reasonably portable. It doesn't really count if it's only 20% smaller than my D3 + (say) a 20/f2.8. A full-frame version of an EVIL seems likely to be not too awfully much smaller than a D3 or D600, and the lenses are likely to be similar in size, since they would have to cover the FX frame size. I think it takes a certain amount of optical physics to do that. So while I'm open to an EVIL, it doesn't seem too likely that a full frame EVIL is the thing that will solve this particular problem.

Mirrorless cameras can also be much quieter, since they have, well, no mirror. How often do I need to be quieter? Sometimes. I'm shooting a concert tonight, and essentially silent with ridiculous high ISO seems like it would be a better tool than my flappity-flap D3, but only if I can reasonably use, say, a 135/f2 or that sort of lens. If I were shooting weddings, this might be a big deal to me. But I don't shoot weddings, and actually I don't do too many concerts either. If there were a FX EVIL, I might well rent it a couple of times per year. Then I could even choose which lenses I'd like, and not have to worry about which ones I would be willing to buy. But for now, I don't see buying one.

As for the rest of my photographic life, an FX EVIL would have to do what my Nikons do - and a lot better, because I've built up what is probably an unusually large investment in Nikon, both in equipment and operational understanding. The threshold of energy (and finance) to make me switch is significant and likely higher than average. What would an EVIL FX do better than my D3/D800/D600/whatever? OK, it's thinner and a little smaller. I shoot a 400/f2.8 a lot - how much is that going to help? Even if it works just as well as my D3, will I even notice the difference of 1.2lbs when the rig I am shooting weighs ten times that? My other main lenses are the usual monsters: 24-70/f2.8, 70-200/f2.8, 200/f4 Micro, 60/f2.8 Micro, and a few minority smaller ones. Cutting the size and weight of the camera in half isn't going to change my life, unless you can change the weight and bulk of the lenses too, but an EVIL FX almost by definition cannot do that.

At the end of the day, I don't see anything compelling about an EVIL FX camera, especially not one that makes me change everything. On the other hand, I do see the point of an EVIL, just not an FX one. If someone - Fuji or otherwise - made an x10-sized camera with interchangeable lenses (I don't think the X-pro-1 is that size, although maybe I'm wrong), that would be a serious consideration for me. But making it FX, no way.

Maybe I am a dinosaur, doomed to extinction. Several folks here have told me bluntly that I seem to have reasons to say no to all of these new ideas. But at least for my purposes, I just don't see the value proposition.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine   US  Charter Member Thu 27-Sep-12 03:42 PM
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#14. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I think the manufacturers are really missing the boat on mirrorless. The point of having mirrorless was to reduce the bulk and (mechanical) complexity of an SLR. The complementary expectation was that the lenses and accessories would also be smaller and lighter. Hmmm. Sounds a lot like DX, doesn't it? Ooops. Fodder for another time.

Instead, we have monstrosities like the RX-1, which really doesn't meet any of those expectations either in body or optics. Yes, the theoretical image quality is paramount, but if I wanted absolute IQ, I know mirrorless isn't (or shouldn't) be the place to go.

If I'm going to use mirrorless, it's because I want something smaller and lighter, but I'm not willing to compromise relative image quality by going to the opposite extreme; i.e., a point & shoot with a teeny sensor. To be honest, 1" and m4/3 is the sweet spot for me. It's too bad that there isn't currently a mirrorless camera which combines the aggressive and wonderful PDAF of the Nikon 1 with the wide availability and variety of lighter! and more compact! lenses like m4/3. That would be the desirable mirrorless for me.

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PerroneFord Silver Member  Tallahassee, US  Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011 Thu 27-Sep-12 06:08 PM
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#16. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 14



This has been a fascinating discussion...

Frankly, I could care less about whether a camera has a mirror or not. I have a Nikon 1 v1 and like it a lot. If someone could take that technology, give it a DX sized sensor, and put it in the frame of a D3/D4 I'd buy it. Just keep the optical viewfinder please.

I have nearly 20 Nikon or Nikon F compatible lenses. I have zero desire to reinvent that.

So it seems (just like all other cameras) there are disparate camps for the coming mirrorless transition.

Some want small, light cameras for easy portability. I'd say this market is fairly well served already. Others want the familiarity of size and features of their current cameras, with the silence of a mirrorless camera. That's the camp I fall into.

The Nikon D400 will likely be the last of my SLR purchases for quite some time. I would consider a move to a new full size body if it offers the mirrorless technology. I would absolutely LOVE to gut my D2H and put a CX sensor in it. Mirrorless or not!

------
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 10:08 PM
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#65. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 16



I have a similar investment.

After using a cropped sensor mirrorless Sony NEX-7, my chin literally hit the counter. While this camera is no DSLR beater, I could see clearly that this type of camera is going to eventually win - just like the other technologies I have listed elsewhere in this thread. It may take an iteration or two, but relex SLRs are going the route of CRT's. I don't say this anger anyone. I just can't see how it won't happen.

Sadly, we will be stuck with our relatively 'fat' bodies based on the original 35mm film designs. If we don't want a new family of lenses, we can't change DSLR depth. Responses to this pool suggest there is a high desire to keep the current family of lenses.

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sun 30-Sep-12 10:22 PM
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#68. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 65




>I just can't see how it won't happen.

Yes, that is clear Some of us see things differently!

Like you, I'm very impressed with the quality of the current top-end mirrorless cameras - in my case it's a Fuji X-Pro1. But it won't replace my DSLR(s), and I didn't expect it to.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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grizzly200   Solano County, California, US  Registered since 18th Dec 2011 Thu 29-Nov-12 04:08 AM
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#121. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 65



I personally can't stand small, thin, light bodies. I like a solid, rugged, heavy camera with a viewfinder. My prized Nikkor lenses wouldn't balance on a skinny little mirrorless body. Pros won't go for a camera with the size and build quality of the V1 or J1.
The Reflex viewing system allows the photographer to see exactly what he or she will get in a shot. I will never be comfortable holding a camera up away from my eye, framing a shot on some screen on the back.

James

  

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Lthole Gold Member  Evergreen, US  Nikonian since 16th Feb 2006 Thu 27-Sep-12 05:39 PM
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#15. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Frame size actually means nothing to me. My requirement is build quality since I shoot mainly wildlife and landscapes in the mountains. Wind, rain, snow, dust, heat, altitude are my challenges. If a mirrorless is built to equal a D4 or D800 in those conditions I could be interested but without those features I have little interest. Now I understand those who don't shoot big glass have other needs and it really becomes a tool for the job issue rather than format in my view.

Dave

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography   Livermore, CA, US  Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006 Thu 27-Sep-12 07:55 PM
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#17. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I think you miss the mark on the drawbacks of mirrorless.

While everything you say about lenses designed with mount-to-sensor distance large enough to accommodate a mirror is true, your conclusion that lens compatibility negating the thin body is false. Obviously an interchangeable lens camera can support a spacer to provide the proper spacing when needed. I suppose if you always use this space then it does for practical purposes impact the size of the body, but as a transitional tool, the spacer technically does not impact body design.

The mirror does however serve a few useful purposes, namely to provide a viewfinder, and to divert the image to the autofocus sensors and meter.. For mirrorless to replace SLR, we'd want the mirrorless camera to meet or exceed SLR performance in these areas. Metering is a non-issue. Viewfinder is close if not there already. Contrast-detect AF however is not yet up to the speed of phase-detect AF for fast-moving action. This is simply a matter of processing power, so mirrorless has come a long way, and it will get there. Once it does, there will no longer be any reason to have a mirror flopping around in our cameras when shooting. Indeed, someday the SLR design will seem quaint and absurd. We're not quite there yet.

The idea of the D800 being a disappointment because is has a reflex mirror, and is compatible with legacy flash equipment, is not well connected to reality. This would be disappointing if the competitor's cameras had already exceeded this level of performance in a mirrorless system. But, since they haven't, the D800 is only disappointing against a theoretical camera that doesn't yet exist, yet amazingly has only been slightly more difficult to purchase in 2012 than a D800.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sun 30-Sep-12 10:15 PM
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#66. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 17



Of course an extension can be provided to provide compatibility with older lenses. That would be ine.

It has been done with new (and thinner) micro 4/3rd cameras that use extensions to allow compatibility with original 35 mm lens to plane lenses. It has not proven immensely popular because it adds mechanical instability and it competes with true micro 4/3rd lenses that are often smaller and more technically advanced.

--

Craig

  

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dhrphoto Silver Member  Laurel, US  Nikonian since 03rd Sep 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 02:30 AM
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#18. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 28-Sep-12 04:24 AM by dhrphoto


Hello fellow Nikonians,
I don't think mirrorless is the future because:
1 I love looking through my pentaprism viewfinder to compose an image.
2 It requires virtually no power, great for when I want to check a
scene or study a view.
3 Great for viewing in bright sunlight.

4. I already have a P7000 for a mirror-less.

P.S. Ya know, I just love my Nikons.

May Your Day Be Happy And
Full Of Beautiful Images
D.H.R.

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King Nothing Gold Member  Cranbrook, CA  Nikonian since 31st Dec 2011 Fri 28-Sep-12 05:27 AM
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#19. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I was actually having this same conversation with my local dealer yesterday and I'll stick with what I said to him. I think it would be incredibly stupid of Nikon to come out with a new lens mount for a full frame mirrorless. And that means no fiddly adapters that don't work very well either. If I have to buy into a new mount for a full frame mirrorless then what incentive is there for me to stay with Nikon? Either way my existing lenses would be useless and I'd have to replace them. I think that once EVF technology is fast enough and energy efficient enough that Nikon will come out with a DSLR that loses the mirror but keeps everything else. It'll probably use the on sensor phase detect autofocus like the V1.

Personally I don't want a full frame lens on a small body. I've tried the 24-70 and the 70-200 on the V1 with the adapter and I find the ergonomics are atrocious. Even the D7000 is a little small with the big lenses, which is why I got the vertical grip for it. I'd be interested in a full frame mirrorless if I can keep using all my lenses with a decent size body for balance.

Chris

Flickr
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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 06:04 AM
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#20. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 28-Sep-12 02:27 PM by agitater


The OP is addressing marketing and specmanship, and presents an unsupported controversy.

Mirrorless cameras are generally thinner and lighter than their mirrored counterparts. But those differences are not virtues if the resulting cameras are too light or too thin to handhold for good, stable shooting. After all, VR, VC, OS and IS do not compensate for all the photographer's ills. Thinner, smaller and lighter are nothing more than marketing-driven and pointless so-called needs.

The OP is also provocative when he refers to how long the focal plane shutter has been around. So what of it? The alloy and kevlar shutter of today is nothing like the shutters produced years ago.

That camera makers continue to develop new tech is terrific. But promoting adoption of such tech while deriding the superb cameras being used to produce the finest photos of the day is a curious approach. The vaunted, mirrorless Sigma DP2M is capable of staggeringly gorgeous captures, but its superb sensor and astonishing lens are wrapped in an almost unusable body. By contrast, the Fujifilm X-Pro1 is an all-around mirrorless hybrid that is let down by a terribly short eyepoint. The point here is that the non-Nikon mirrorless camera makers have got to produce cameras which kick down all of Nikon's doors (not just a few of them) if they want to knock off either one of the two leaders. Anything else is just talk, almost-great cameras, and a very small market share.

People gravitate to the best value that produces the quality they want. That's why Canon and Nikon own the vast majority of the photography market and all the other makers fight over the rest. Nikon and Canon both now have advanced mirrorless systems, so we'll see how well they do and how well the market takes to them and whether or not some success gives Nikon the impetus to push mirrorless upward.

Some other maker has to take a run at Nikon and Canon. It's certainly about time. Maybe Fujifilm? The X-Pro1 system is amazing (other than the eyepoint). What about Olympus? The new OM system is also amazing. Panasonic and micro4/3? I doubt it.

Mirrorless has great potential. But potential won't knock off mirrors. My next research and photography trip will include the X-Pro1 (which I just reviewed). Wonderful camera and x-mount lenses, but I'm waiting for the new zoom to show up. The point is that change has far more to do (at least for me) with image quality, so I think that preferring or promoting mirrorless merely because it's newer tech is just as senseless as deriding traditional tech just because it's mature and deeply well developed.

Who knows . . . maybe the successor to the DX D300s and D7000 will be a mirrorless DX D400 (or D7100/8000)? Now that would be an interesting development. It's pure speculation for now, obviously, but if Nikon or Canon ever did such a thing you can be sure that image quality, ergonomics, eyepoint, etc., etc., etc., would all be best in class. The other makers - mirrorless or otherwise - can't quite say that.

The OP also expresses himself in a way that suggests there's a problem out there with image quality, or possibly that image quality or camera usability is somehow stalled? If so, I think that's nonsense. The bottom line is that unless you're pixel peeping at 150%, technical image quality from about the $500 price point on up is superb. So I say that mirrorless or not, we've reached the point in photography technology at which the choice of camera brand and mid-quality or better lens has ceased to matter and the photographer is the only critical factor. The technology debate has become just that - a techgeek debate over which microscopically examined pixel is cleaner.

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pollarda Gold Member  Provo, US  Nikonian since 23rd Feb 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 06:19 AM
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#21. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 28-Sep-12 06:23 AM by pollarda


Personally, I'd like to see a FX/full frame camera that took Nikon's current lenses (perhaps with a converter ala extension tube). I could see using it :

1) As a backup camera. Sometimes a whole additional DSLR would be just too much from a weight perspective.

2) In situations where there are going to be a large number of pictures taken. For example I recently shot a 900 frame panorama (15 gigapixel: http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/114571 ). It turned out really nice but, there are still a number of "issues" I'd like to fix as I'm still learning. On the other hand, do I want to burn through an additional 900 shutter activations??? Think photos for panoramas, HDR, focus stacking, video (shot by stills and put together -- not video from the video unit itself.) What if I wanted to do a picture like the one I did where I not only shot the 900 pictures but also HDR'd AND focus stacked the pictures. Then I have say 9x900 + a bunch more. It could be 15,000+ pictures / shutter activations by the time it is all said and done.

I have a friend of mine who shoots quite a bit of landscape video with his D300 in 9 frame brackets and then HDRs them all together and finally they all get strung together into a video. Really cool stuff -- but he burns through shutter activations like nobody's business.

3) When I need something that is lighter or less intrusive than the DSLR (for portraits/restaurant shots, etc.)

They both have their place. I wish it was a bit easier to select one or the other for the job at hand (by having interchangeable batteries and lenses) than is currently the case.

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Fri 28-Sep-12 12:16 PM
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#24. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Wow! I'm surprised at some of the comments. While the mirror is a familiar design, you would think we are doing something radical like giving up film in favor of crappy, grainy, digital images. It's about the images - not the hardware.

I have a D800E and a Nikon V1. I've used them both in the past week. There were some situations at the Tour Championship last week when I wished I had my V1 instead of my D800E.

The Nikon Vi is a lot better than some of the criticism suggests. The small size allows use in venues where a DSLR is not permitted - like the ACM Honors program at the Ryman Auditorium last week. A mirrorless camera can be used for images that are not possible or not permitted - such as during the address and backswing at a professional golf event. And the frame rate on my V1 is much faster than my D800E.

The V1 does have a viewfinder - an electronic viewfinder that is actually better in some situations. I was in a relatively dark concert venue and the electronic viewfinder is much brighter than a conventional viewfinder.

I do want some additional lenses. I'd like something wider and faster than the current kit lenses. The ability it use an adapter with current Nikon lenses is a big positive. Who would have thought about an equivalent 810mm f/4 by using the 300 f/4 and adapter on the V1. This combination makes an excellent birding lens. But if you want birds in flight, the V1 is not your choice.

Durability may be an issue. The V1 is not a pro DSLR. But a 50mm f/1.8 or 18-200 on a D3200 does not have a robust build. And I can buy an extra V1 body if necessary - it's just not that expensive.

I've very comfortable in using the V1 and a DSLR. Both have their places in my kit. And there are times when each is left behind. The ability to use a mirrorless camera provides additional opportunities. It's not a replacement for a DSLR - it's a compliment to a DSLR and something different.

We are at the front end of mirrorless development. Today there are more mirrorless cameras and more images from mirrorless cameras than DSLRs. It's an opportunity.


Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops - Smokies Oct 2012

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

  

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Vox Sciurorum   Newton, US  Registered since 18th Oct 2007 Fri 28-Sep-12 03:44 PM
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#42. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I have a large investment in F mount lenses. A camera that supports those lenses with full electronic coupling and autofocus is much more valuable than one that does not. Nikon's own V1 does a bad job, and nobody else supports AF at all.

  

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CaptainYooh Silver Member  Calgary, CA  Nikonian since 27th Oct 2011 Sat 29-Sep-12 04:48 PM
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#49. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 42
Sat 29-Sep-12 05:03 PM by CaptainYooh


Great and meaningful discussion. I've read every post with interest and found that I can, to some degree, take sides with both "extremities" of the argument. I also think OP's intent has been distorted somewhat in that the conversation took off to the comparisons of mirror vs. rangefinder territory. I viewed the original question in more of a game theory light: does the strategic direction taken by Nikon and Canon open attractive and enticing entry opportunities for other players and, if yes, do these potential entrants have a reasonable chance of either taking a big bite off the photo market or even pushing the giants away? I tend to say "yes", they do. These entrants are not going to be some yahoo geeks working out of their basements but the well-known players. Recently announced new Hasselblad Lunar camera tells me that none of the serious players are really sitting on their butts waiting for things to happen. Everyone is doing something interesting out there.

I have a huge investment in the Nikon equipment and would be hard pressed to abandon it, unless I absolutely must. Other than financial need, what would make me do this? I honestly don't know at this point.

Most of the photographers are familiar with this web-site that stores some amazing examples of photographic history (http://www.shorpy.com). How did they manage to take shots so sharp and so good more than 100 years ago? Was it the better lenses or processing chemicals? Or is it all in the format differences? I doubt either assumption. It was and still is in one's ability to see and compose each shot. Technical support comes distant second. But it surely is nice to have it.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 26-Oct-12 01:55 PM
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#95. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 49



Thanks for recognizing that I was not baiting anyone when I started this thread. I really do prefer an EVF - and I now understand that many of you do not. I still encourage everyone to visit a your LBS and try something like a V1 or Sony NEX 7. I would like to hear more about your experience.

With a few exceptions, I think most points of view have been intelligently presented in this thread. I can honestly admit I have learned a great deal from several Nikon supporters in this forum.

I still think Nikon and Canon could be caught looking the other way when a RED-inspired mirrorless FX camera is ultimately produced. That's how market leaders lose their dominant positions. I have mentioned many such companies so far. I can add IBM and Oracle to this list. Both fell onto hard times over the past few decades. Yet both have recovered by reinventing parts of their core business. Which will Nikon become?

From reading this thread, It is clear to me that MANY existing Nikon customers are not too worried about the mirrorless threat. That is good and bad. Companies grow by selling back to their base and by attracting new customers. With this in mind, I see a true opportunity for an entrepreneur to beat Nikon at their own game by producing the world's best 'FX image recorder' that also accepts Nikon, Canon and Sony lenses.

I think an 'agnostic image taker', or more simply, a mirrorless body that accepts any major manufacturer's lens, is both feasible, cost effective and can attract new customers who are dissatisfied with slow DSLR progress.

RED did just that in the video world.

--

Craig

  

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PerroneFord Silver Member  Tallahassee, US  Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011 Fri 26-Oct-12 05:47 PM
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#96. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 95



>I think an 'agnostic image taker', or more simply, a
>mirrorless body that accepts any major manufacturer's lens, is
>both feasible, cost effective and can attract new customers

Agree to this point.

>who are dissatisfied with slow DSLR progress.

Completely disagree with this point.

DSLR progress is moving VERY quickly. Much of it spurned on by adopting things from the video side of things. The DSLR market is VERY traditional and will continue to be for another 15-20 years or so. When a lot of us former film shooters stop caring much and are happy with out 50MP, 15fps, ISO 50k cameras.

You continue to purport that DSLR progress is slow. However, you offer zero evidence that it's slow. Perhaps too slow for your liking. However, it seems to be moving along just fine for the GREAT majority of those people who are actually spending their hard earned thousands of dollars on Nikon's and Canons. It seems to be moving just fine for those who's living relies on having the best cameras available. Whether that be weddings, photojournalism, sports photography, or whatever, DSLRs are utterly dominant, and nothing looks to be slowing that trend.

>RED did just that in the video world.

No, in fact they haven't. RED's penetration into the high end video market is pretty good for their size. But Sony still sells more cameras a day, than RED sells in a year. It's all a matter of perspective.

>
>

------
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 26-Oct-12 07:01 PM
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#97. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 95



I understand that many people are happy with their DSLR's. I would be too if I believed they were the best we could get.

Many people were happy with their laptop computers until the iPad came along. People still buy laptops but the growth market, for new and returning customers, is in tablets.

Nikon is not motivated to stop making reflex cameras. They make a decent profit selling them. They would plan on making a smaller profit with EVF camera that costs half as much (that's somewhat debatable) in a market with fewer barriers to entry (that's almost certainly true). A new manufacturer in the FX mirrorless market could make a profit by selling to Canon, Sony and Nikon lens owners.

You mention that RED didn't put the market leaders out of business. That's very true. But RED did raise the bar, forcing Sony, Canon and Panasonic to introduce SSD-based 2K and 4K recorders far earlier than they would have done otherwise.

So you see, I think Nikon would actually benefit from leading us into FX mirrorless photography, rather than kicking and screaming from behind.

--

Craig

  

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PerroneFord Silver Member  Tallahassee, US  Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011 Fri 26-Oct-12 07:49 PM
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#99. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 97
Fri 26-Oct-12 07:52 PM by PerroneFord


>I understand that many people are happy with their DSLR's. I
>would be too if I believed they were the best we could get.

Best is a VERY elusive term. So to that end, I make my money in photography as a sports shooter. Please indicate to me a mirrorless camera that I can buy today that equals the performance of my D3s and D800. My two most used, old fashioned DSLRs. And by performance, I mean FPS, ISO performance, handling, and reliability. The primary factors I have in mind when I spend $3k-$6k for a camera.

If you can't name any, then this exercise is merely academic. As it means my old fashioned DSLRs are still, in fact, the best we can get.

>Many people were happy with their laptop computers until the
>iPad came along. People still buy laptops but the growth
>market, for new and returning customers, is in tablets.

And you have continued the fallacy along the same lines. Please show me which tablet I can use today, that will let me run Photoshop, Lightroom, Photo Mechanic, and my OnOne Perfect suite, and do it better than my i7 based MacBookPro.

Again, if you can't name one, then in fact, my old fashioned laptop is still the best for *MY* needs, and I'd extrapolate that to say that they are still best for users who need to CREATE rather than just consume media.

>Nikon is not motivated to stop making reflex cameras. They
>make a decent profit selling them. They would plan on making a
>smaller profit with EVF camera that costs half as much (that's
>somewhat debatable) in a market with fewer barriers to entry
>(that's almost certainly true). A new manufacturer in the FX
>mirrorless market could make a profit by selling to Canon,
>Sony and Nikon lens owners.

I think Nikon is not motivated to stop making reflex cameras because as of 2012, their overall performance is unmatched by any other kind of camera. When this ceases to be the case, Nikon will adapt. They adapted to SLR technology, they adapted to autofocus (slowly), they adapted to digital, and they are slowly adapting to mirrorless with their newest efforts just announced.

>You mention that RED didn't put the market leaders out of
>business. That's very true. But RED did raise the bar, forcing
>Sony, Canon and Panasonic to introduce SSD-based 2K and 4K
>recorders far earlier than they would have done otherwise.


The bar that RED raised was one of putting true cinema quality imagery into the hands of well financed independent productions. More than anything, their timing was impeccable. The world was ready for a significant jump to digital, but the imagery was JUST getting there. With the likes of the Arri D20, Viper, Genesis, and DALSA Origin to compete against, RED did very well on price and performance.

Unlike the mirrorless agenda you seem bent on, RED came in at nearly the top of the game. They challenged the establishment with a tool that was producing imagery that was as good or nearly so, as systems costing MANY times more. This is not true in the DSLR market. Mirrorless cameras currently pale in comparison to their reflex DSLR competitors.

>So you see, I think Nikon would actually benefit from leading
>us into FX mirrorless photography, rather than kicking and
>screaming from behind.

This may well be true. But I think it's a bit early yet. And again, I don't say these things out of ignorance. I own a mirrorless camera, I own an ipad, and I've worked with RED and was in line for a Scarlet before my stills business skyrocketed and I bought 2 D3S's instead.

I am not at all opposed to mirrorless, and would happily go there if it could meet me needs.

------
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sat 27-Oct-12 12:47 AM
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#103. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 99



Nikon is vulnerable like Microsoft before the introduction of the iPad, and RIM before the current generation of smartphones.

You seem to perceive no threat, and suggest that EVF cameras aren't going to beat Nikon. Why not? Nikon is not doing anything in the FX mirrorless space. That's sound like the best kind of competitor to have.

Like the SSD cameras pioneered by RED, Mirrorless will eventually dominate the SLR market. Will Nikon step up to the plate? Doesn't seem like they want to...

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Sat 27-Oct-12 01:54 AM
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#104. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 103



>Nikon is vulnerable like Microsoft before the introduction of
>the iPad, and RIM before the current generation of
>smartphones.

Every company is, theoretically, vulnerable to all manner of changes, evolutions in technology, threats from competitors and anvils dropping from the sky. (MeepMeep!) Saying Nikon (or Canon or Panasonic or Sony or Joe's Stone Crab) is vulnerable to competition is just like saying that the sun will come up tomorrow.

>You seem to perceive no threat, and suggest that EVF cameras
>aren't going to beat Nikon. Why not? Nikon is not
>doing anything in the FX mirrorless space. That's sound like
>the best kind of competitor to have.

I don't speak for Nikonians members in any way, but I'd estimate with great certainty that very few of them think about competitive market factors as a "threat" of any kind. Perrone said nothing about EVF and/or mirrorless cameras beating anything or any company. He stated very clearly only the precise reality of current and projected usage by professionals and enthusiasts in both still photography and videography - that Sony outsells RED hands down, and that pros go almost exclusively for DSLR camera bodies and their attendant sensors because that's where the finest image quality resides. I agree with Perrone (his experience is notable for its depth and breadth), and I agree with Ned (whose successful experience as a pro photographer and photowalk leader is obvious) with respect to his supporting anecdotal information.

My own experience in investigative research which frequently depends on high resolution photography to support the production of evidence on which to found research reports to clients, is also that DSLR tends to be the first choice of researchers intent on producing the highest quality still photography. Of course researchers are using all manner of cameras, but the veratility and broad understanding of DSLR cameras and associated lenses remains far more widely useful to investigative researchers for the vast majority of purposes in the field.

There's some sort of ill-conceived tendency out there to yearn for smaller and lighter purely for their own sake. I think it's senseless. Smaller, unfortunately, means also the ergonomic design - specifically to accommodate and encourage stable handling, steady focusing (VR/IS/OS/VC are simply not panacea), must be unusually well implemented, but that has yet to happen. The reason is that the average size of adult human hands throughout most of the world end up being cramped by form factors which are simply too small in certain dimensions. Simply arguing, "Oh people will get used to smaller form factors," is completely unfounded. Pros and semi-pros (e.g., my research associates), need a either a handful of bulk or an add-on grip/battery grip accessory any time a small form factor camera is imposed on them (such as when I provide a small form factor camera to an associate for a particular project). They can't use the Fuji X-100 or X-Pro1 on pressurized assignments because the camera bodies are simply not designed to be used on the run and no amount of practice will make it so. Besides that, they're investigative researchers and I will not have them wasting valuable time trying to force a small form factor camera into all the myriad uses in which larger form factors populated by DSLR pro bodies reign supreme.

>Like the SSD cameras pioneered by RED, Mirrorless will
>eventually dominate the SLR market. Will Nikon step up to the
>plate? Doesn't seem like they want to...

RED did not pioneer SSD cameras! Where do you get this from? Kodak developed the first prototype SSD video cameras back in 1997-1998. Sony developed the first tapeless video camera in 2001-2002, and Panasonic came out with the first SSD video camera in 2003-2004. RED didn't develop anything until 2005, and didn't actually deliver its first camera until August 2007.

You're making predictions based on what appear to be your wants and desires. What you're missing is that it is practical application of industrial design that dictates form factors for various sorts of professional photography and professional video device uses. Industrial designers have been producing small form factor designs for decades. None of them have seen the light of day because the prototypes have been shot down in flames by the pros tasked with field testing such cameras. Smaller form factors and mirrorless technologies are industrial factors prompted in part by the need for market changes based on fresh product lines, and partly on predicted economies of scale which manufacturers believe will result in lower bills of materials and hence lower production costs.

Nikon has positioned its mirrorless development quite well. If you want a really hot mirrorless design right now, order a Nikon 1 V2 right now or go to the store and buy a Fujifilm X-Pro1 or an Olympus OM-D. Note though that Fujifilm and Olympus don't even exist in the pro photography or video markets, and that I'm absolutely not sending out research associates with anything other than solid, reliable very high res DSLR bodies and pro lenses. As Perrone said, to take its place you've got to beat it and mirrorless, small form factor bodies just can't do it.

Nikon and Canon have been battling it out in the pro SLR and DSLR and DVSLR market for years and years and years. Both companies are plugged directly into the needs of every kind of still photography pro shooter you or any other Nikonian can think of. Both companies plug into those pros, all around the world, through their professional services programs. Now, both companies have turned their experienced IP geniuses in the direction of pro video. Canon is a bit further ahead for now. Both companies have mirrorless lines too - but they're not attempting to burden their pro contacts with any of that just yet. Nikon's foray into pro video is still taking small steps. The D800 is not bad, but output color space is limited to 4:2:0, which means that the broadcast guys can't adjust the footage to color match anything they want to intercut from other sources. Why not 4:2:2 (which would also allow professional screens)? Stay tuned.

DVSLR bodies and lenses are showing up in certain TV and movie productions because they're relatively inexpensive. You can blow them up, crash them, soak them, dunk them, kick them, etc., etc., etc., and the production is only out of pocket $3-$4K depending on which lens was trashed along with the body. All sorts of new shot angles and live effects are appearing because the cost of getting really hard shots went down dramatically with the release of the Canon 5D MKII. But nobody is doing broadcast work or primary movie work just yet. Shorts and documentaries and other, similar sorts of productions, yes - but not the money pots. So Nikon and Canon are devoting resources to advancing their presence in the pro video market as a consequence. Both companies are devoting resources to mirrorless and OLED/EVF as well, but like other makers they're doing so at the consumer and enthusiast levels. That means developments have to percolate upwards to the pro level, quite the opposite of how technologies have always percolated downward from the pro level down to the consumer level.

Mirrorless ILC from Fujifilm, Olympus, Sony, Samsung and Panasonic, by all real evidence and compared to professional needs and demands, is still a consumer technology and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Wake me in five years or so to recheck the status. If there's a mirrorless ILC with an EVF that looks realistic and a form factor the encourages (rather than discourages) fast, confident handling in all environments (in other words, handling like a current pro DSLR), I'll be happy to consider the thing. Until then, it's just dreams of mirrorless and related technologies for their own sake, and for that reason a complete waste of my time for any consideration related to professional use.

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Howard Carson

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sat 27-Oct-12 02:32 AM
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#105. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 104



Saying that every business can fail is obvious. The sad corporate failures I have highlighted were market leading companies that failed to reinvent themselves in the face of change.

I don't personally care if EVF cameras win. I just don't see how they can miss.

I am not asking for lighter or simpler. I want the best images possible. In 2012, we can finally shoot digitally about as good as film from 5 decades ago. Sorry that doesn't impress me as much as some others.

I know EVT's don't make better images. They will just facilitate better images. Reflex cameras are fine for those who grew up shooting film SLRs. As this aging group of photographers dies off, the next generation will simply not be interested. I don't see Nikon being ready for this change.

>>RED did not pioneer SSD cameras! Where do you get this from?

RED pioneered the widespread industry adoption of progressive scan SSD in an era when most cameras were still using interlaced tape. Its an analogy dude. RED innovated while the market leaders were standing flat footed. Got a better example aside from Nikon and Canon?

--

Craig

  

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Sat 27-Oct-12 02:51 AM
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#106. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 105



>Saying that every business can fail is obvious. The sad
>corporate failures I have highlighted were market leading
>companies that failed to reinvent themselves in the face of
>change.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that Microsoft is a "sad corporate failure"?

Don't answer that. I won't waste any more of your time. I have to unsubscribe from this thread.

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Howard Carson

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sat 27-Oct-12 01:29 PM
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#109. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 106
Sat 27-Oct-12 01:31 PM by Unavailable


>Let me get this straight. You're saying that Microsoft is a
>"sad corporate failure"?
>
>Don't answer that. I won't waste any more of your time. I have
>to unsubscribe from this thread.

Off Topic but I will respond: Microsoft has been supported by software revenues - mainly from Windows and Office - for over a decade. While they were standing still, the market changed from desktop to mobile. Before that, Microsoft was standing still as internet connectivity almost wiped out Windows 95. In each case, Microsoft missed the opportunity to maintain leadership. That's rates as a sad failure to me. They used to be number one. Now they are number 4 behind Apple, Google and Facebook - and who knows how low they will go?

Moving forward, software revenues - particularly from operating systems - will not be significant profit centres. What some proof? Go to http://microsoft.com/. What does the windows title say?


"Microsoft Home page | Devices and Services"

That's right, Microsoft admits their former software business is dead.

TO GET BACK ON TOPIC: Mirrorless has the same potential in the DSLR business. Properly executed, no new buyer will even look at a reflex mirror camera. Base customers - like many in this thread - will still buy the old technology. Just like some people still buy paper newspapers and magazines. Sounds a lot like the Microsoft saga to me. Thanks for mentioning it.

--

Craig

  

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dhrphoto Silver Member  Laurel, US  Nikonian since 03rd Sep 2007 Sat 27-Oct-12 03:06 AM
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#107. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 105



All being said, I would like to know how many Mirrorless camera users set up their last shot with out powering them up? Yes I turned it on afterwards, however, my DSLR still uses less power.

May Your Day Be Happy And
Full Of Beautiful Images
D.H.R.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sat 27-Oct-12 01:37 PM
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#110. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 107



>All being said, I would like to know how many Mirrorless
>camera users set up their last shot with out powering them up?
>Yes I turned it on afterwards, however, my DSLR still uses
>less power.

Fair enough. And how many times have you pressed the shutter button, only to realize that power was off! Saving power has its disadvantages .

An EVF shows what will happen when you press the shutter button. It also creates a freeze fame of each image as it is taken. This sure beats the blacked out reflex VF.

--

Craig

  

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dhrphoto Silver Member  Laurel, US  Nikonian since 03rd Sep 2007 Wed 31-Oct-12 01:01 AM
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#113. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 110



>>All being said, I would like to know how many Mirrorless
>>camera users set up their last shot with out powering them up?
>>Yes I turned it on afterwards, however, my DSLR still uses less power.

Added: (before, during & after the shoot.)

>Fair enough. And how many times have you pressed the shutter
>button, only to realize that power was off! Saving power has
>its disadvantages .

During set up, never!
Trying to moot my point are you?
Shall I make another?
Wait!

May Your Day Be Happy And
Full Of Beautiful Images
D.H.R.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Fri 26-Oct-12 09:54 PM
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#100. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 97



And I thought I was out of this thread, but Craig you keep making unsubstantiated blanket statements about Nikon (and Canon, though not mentioned here) as well as what many of us have said about our DSLR's.

As for Nikon (I don't follow Canon as much, but I suspect they have a similar outlook.) they have too many new patents concerning mirrorless technology to believe they will keep such technology solely for the "Nikon 1" type of camera. They wouldn't be putting in so much capital, both financial and human, in my opinion, into mirrorless technology, if they weren't serious about mirrorless technology for cameras, and it would be incredibly presumptuous to assume they are so shortsighted as to not understand the implications of this technology for DSLR's.

If you have real facts to the contrary, not just more speculation, (Please don't talk about what the reps from Nikon and Canon with whom you've spoken say. They know nothing about what Nikon is planning and developing, nor do they in any way represent Nikon management's thinking. They're salespeople out to sell the companies' current wears, and that's it.) please lay them out, as that might cause me great concern about my investment in Nikon photographic equipment, and therefore such information would be extremely helpful to the long term health of my photography business.

I am certainly one of the people happy with my DSLR, however, that doesn't mean I don't want a DSLR which is better than my D4. I can visualize a great deal of improvement to my D4 and the D800, which would help me, and most have absolutely nothing to do with mirrorless technology. There is a whole lot more to a quality digital camera than mirrorless technology. That being said, I'd be ready to embrace a mirrorless "DSLR" today, if and only if, however, overall it's an improvement on my current DSLR. I won't embrace mirrorless just for the sake of embracing the technology.

I think your example of the iPad is a great example. In 1993 Apple came out with the tablet, the Newton. It was a great idea, but a terrible product. In 2000, Microsoft had the Tablet PC. It was another dud. It took Apple until 2010 to bring out the iPad. Putting great new technology to work to make a great and useful product can take years. The iPad is a great example of that. Finally with the iPad, there was a tablet which was worth purchasing, and which for many could substitute for a laptop computer, or was better than a laptop computer. In other words, people were smart enough to wait for tablet technology to get to the point where the product was better for their use than what they were already using.

You said, "I would be too (referring to today's DSLR's) if I believed they were the best we could get." Here's the thing, if you take the current mirrorless technology, and install it in my D4, removing the swinging mirror system, it wouldn't be as good as my current "old fashioned" D4. Right now, the D4 and the D800 are the best we can get. Some day that won't be so, but for now, it is.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

-----------------------------
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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 26-Oct-12 10:34 PM
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#101. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 100



With technology, a good idea often fails when it is poorly executed. There were stylus-based tablets before the iPad. The iPad was simply the first tablet to nail form factor, user interface and functions. It was also introduced by a vendor who was not afraid of cannibalizing there core business with disruptive technology. Apple had been a desktop computer company. In the years leading up to the iPad, they had transformed into a mobile and phone company. Desktop computing continues to provide less than 10% of revenue. Good thing they didn't listen to Microsoft who had 'proven' that you cannot sell mass-market tablets.

I see mirrorless, the same way. Poor attempts from some vendors; and half hearted attempts from Nikon and Canon who seem afraid to cannibalize their core DSLR business. They are leaving the door open for someone else to enter the mirrorless FX market.

It is a moot point anyway: Do you think many buyers under 30 will want a camera with mirror much longer?

As far as IP goes, I don't think Nikon or Canon have much to defend. The genie is out of the bottle. The Sony NEX 7 and Olympus OM has an OLED EVF with a shutter curtain is used only to end an exposure. That's a fair bit of prior art to try and out patent.

Maybe Nikon will just end up as a lens manufacturer. I see reflex cameras becoming the next CRT TVs. Arguably a better viewfinder image in some cases, but who cares when an EVF does much more?


--

Craig

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Fri 26-Oct-12 11:51 PM
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#102. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 101



So, you have absolutely no factual evidence, no special knowledge that Nikon and other manufacturers aren't planning major mirrorless advancements, including bringing mirrorless technology to their DSLR business in the future, when they believe it's ready for DSLR's. In other words, all your evidence is speculation.

As far as buyers under 30 wanting cameras with or without mirrors. I think that for most buyers of cameras that question is completely irrelevant. I think the average person doesn't care what's under the hood of their camera. I think they only care about how easy it is to use, how easy it is to carry, and how good are the photos coming out of it.

The iPad sells because it's good looking, has a great form factor, and does the job for which it's intended. It doesn't sell because of any specific technology anyone can point to inside it. The average person just doesn't care what's inside. I think that's the way the average person feels about mirrorless technology. They don't care about it. It's the results which count.

Moreover, I think we're seeing the beginning of the end of the low end to midrange consumer camera. I think the future is written as smartphones for photography for most people. Heck they're taking snapshots only and why bother with a camera that's no better than their smartphone when they already have the smartphone.

As to photo enthusiasts and pros who make photographs, even the ones under 30 are smart enough to choose the best camera within their budget, the one with the feature set which works the best for their photography.

And now you can truly have the last word, as I've unsubscribed, and am moving on to other discussions.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

-----------------------------
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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Sat 27-Oct-12 09:30 AM
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#108. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 101



Unless you're going to provide some meaningful evidence to support your points of view on this topic, you're clearly not going to convince anyone who has an open mind.

Please - it's time to drop the matter so that we can all move on.

Thank you!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Sat 27-Oct-12 01:48 PM
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#111. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 108



>Unless you're going to provide some meaningful evidence to
>support your points of view on this topic, you're clearly not
>going to convince anyone who has an open mind.
>
>Please - it's time to drop the matter so that we can all move
>on.
>
>Thank you!


Brian. Thank you for the note.

I have rarely repeated a single point. There is still lots to discuss since there are literally thousands of reasons why EVF's become the dominant cameras. The only irrefutable point: EVF will eventually replace mirror reflex cameras. It is inevitable.

While many may not like what I am suggesting, I am surprised some many act like it isn't going to happen. It supports my theory that companies and users are looking the other way when markets collapse.

There will always be reflex DSLR cameras. Just like you can still buy a film SLR. I remain amazed that so many believe reflex DSLRS will matter much longer.

--

Craig

  

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PerroneFord Silver Member  Tallahassee, US  Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011 Sat 27-Oct-12 02:29 PM
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#112. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 111



This is my final post on the matter.

>I remain amazed that so many believe
>reflex DSLRS will matter much longer.

The thing you don't seem to get, is that the users here, much like users everywhere, DON'T CARE. If mirrorless becomes the "new thing" we'll move. If Nikon makes the move, great. If they don't, we will either move companies or stay with what we have. It's really not a big deal.

I own cameras from Nikon, Canon, Sony, Panasonic, and will soon have one from BlackMagic. Some are film, some are digital. I DON'T CARE who's name is on the front of my camera, nor do I care what technology is inside it. As long as I get the images I need.

Done.

------
Webpage: http://www.ptfphoto.com

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kennoll Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Seattle, US  Nikonian since 07th Feb 2011 Sun 30-Sep-12 06:19 AM
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#50. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 30-Sep-12 06:20 AM by kennoll


My thought is, without going through all the posts here, is that there is a new, younger generation of people out there that like things small, easy to use, and extremely portable. Once they realize they need something better than an iPhone will they venture into the smaller, mirrorless cameras. Not because they're good but because they will make bigger photos and they're cool. These will be perfect until, lo and behold, "I need something even more capable" will they transition to a more "professional" camera. Now, when the serious newbies figure out that photography is the real deal will they go to the bigger, more capable DSLRs. So, to me, there seems to be a generation gap in photography and the mirrorless fits there.

Just say'n..

Ken
Seattle, WA
My Gallery

  

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Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography   Philadelphia, US  Charter Member Sun 30-Sep-12 03:42 PM
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#51. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 50



Ken, I don't think that's the answer.

I only have anecdotal evidence to offer from the bird walks and travel I do and sometimes lead, and the wildlife photography walks I lead, but I see enough consistency there to believe a different scenario. Moreover, from talking with serious photographers here and in Photo Groups at a couple of National Wildlife Refuges I get the same impression.

First, I see more and more older (read that seniors or nearly seniors) photographers with mirrorless cameras than anyone else. They've transitioned to these cameras because they've found the DSRLs are bigger and heavier than they want at this point. They want a smaller camera with which to travel, and one that's lighter to carry around all day wherever they are shooting. They understand that they could likely get better photos with their DSLRs, especially if the photo needs a really long lens (which they are no longer willing to drag around), but the mirrorless at this point (they will get better) are good enough for them at this time. In fact some of these mirrorless cameras such as the Nikon 1 make darn good photos.

Second, about two thirds of the first time camera users, who've found they want something more than a smartphone, who I see while traveling, and those who I occasionally lead are using upper level point and shoots. I've asked them (I'm nosy. Hey, I'm a writer in addition to being a photographer, and get paid to be nosy.) why not a mirrorless or DSLR camera. They generally answer, the mirrorless and DSLRs are too complicated, and many they say they've never heard of mirrorless cameras.

About a quarter seem to get DSLR's and just a few get mirrorless. Those who get DSLR's generally tell me the camera dealer or their friends told them they're eventually going to go with a DSLR so why bother with the mirrorless. Those who got mirrorless told me they wanted a much better quality camera than a phone or point and shoot, but wanted something more portable than a big DSLR.

Third, and this is where to some degree I agree with you. While the "cool" factor comes into play for some, I think you've miscalculated the "cool" factor with regard to age. The "baby boomers" invented the term "cool." While that may not be entirely accurate, "cool," as used today, certainly entered the general use English language lexicon during the 1950's. I submit the "cool" factor even among newly minted senior citizens (especially men (even my wife agrees with this) is a motivating factor even for those who "should know better."

I think, however, whether twenty and thirty somethings smartphone and point and shooters jump to mirrorless or DSLRs, has far more to do with how "deep" the "photography bug" has bitten them than the "cool" factor, from what I hear from them.

By the way, this past week, on a gorgeous Monday, I strolled through Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. The only mirrorless cameras I saw belonged to seniors with grandkids. All the twenty and thirty somethings I noticed taking photos had either cell phones or DSLRs.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

-----------------------------
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PAStime Silver Member  Kingston, CA  Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009 Sun 30-Sep-12 04:10 PM
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#52. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 50




>Once they realize they need something better than an iPhone

That may not happen as much as we might think it will. Increasingly for the masses, convenience trumps quality. I grew up during the hi fi era (turntables, cartridges, amplifiers, speakers). Today its about striving for portability and convenience (iTunes), not fidelity. I expect the same with smartphone cameras (which are also improving).

Overall, we are seeing market fragmentation, a usual phenomena in a given market space. The niches are becoming more specialized and the differentiation more subtle. It appeals to manufacturers because they can grow the overall size of the pie. It appeals to consumers because they have a better selection.

Peter

  

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richardd300 Silver Member  Dyserth, UK  Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009 Sun 30-Sep-12 10:57 PM
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#70. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 52
Sun 30-Sep-12 11:02 PM by richardd300


I voted for "Yes, but only if I can use my existing lenses". This I have done slightly with tongue in cheek however. Why, because I have a worry about the future of a semipro new DX (D400 etc)or if there is one it being the last mirrored offering. Nikon may start to embrace the mirrorless market and in a way already have with the Nikon 1 series. Whether this is a market tester with the FT1 adapter and some quite cool marketing ploys such as the Youtube Nikon V1 video with CS Ling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFCsy2uVnfU

I believe however that the mirrorless path is fraught with difficulties and history shows it's had a sometimes lack lustre journey. I am sure technology can eventually overcome this, but not anytime soon. If the Sony Alpha A77 was equal in stature to a Nikon equivilent dSLR I'm sure more would have migrated to it especially for wildlife and these successes reported widely.

Also, perhaps Nikon have made provision for a space in the semipro DX dSLR market with the D800 forgetting the inferior fps which however does give 6fps in DX mode with the MB-D12 grip. This equals the D7000 fps, but not of course the D300s with grip. The price of the D800 incidentally has crashed in the past 3 weeks in the UK making it more attractive. As a new D800 user I am already learning how this camera can replace my not so loved D7000.

So, only a few weeks ago if I was told they can produce a mirrorless camera which would provide me with a seamless interface with my wildlife longer lenses I would have been more interested than I am now. That is because my current feelings have changed since I bought my D800 which is proving to be a more than credible wildlife camera.

Richard

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Fri 26-Oct-12 07:07 PM
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#98. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 50



>So to me, there seems to be a generation gap in photography and
>the mirrorless fits there.
>
>Just say'n..
>
>Ken
>Seattle, WA

Fair enough. At 53 years old, I am so very happy to part of the young wave of mirrorless fans

But seriously, I think you right to raise the demographic element. A generation that grows up with LCD phones, GPS device, TVs and tablets, may find mirrors to be a bit 'old fashioned'.

--

Craig

  

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dhrphoto Silver Member  Laurel, US  Nikonian since 03rd Sep 2007 Mon 01-Oct-12 12:14 AM
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#73. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Seriously, don't you think if mirrorless was better, I'd already own one. My F100, D300s, & D700 are great camera's.
I Would love to have a D800!

May Your Day Be Happy And
Full Of Beautiful Images
D.H.R.

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Larry E30 Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   US  Nikonian since 27th May 2009 Mon 01-Oct-12 01:49 AM
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#77. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 73
Mon 01-Oct-12 02:49 AM by Larry E30


I think I like the idea of a FF mirrorless ...but see -that's all I had for my first 3 years or so of digital.

And another log on the fire = swivel screen.That too I had on my cameras.
ie ; Canon powershot S5IS,or Nikon 8400(for wide).

So .. to me the perfect camera is ; Panasonic GH1 w/ 7-14mm
(too bad it doesn't have high ISO/low noise....like Nikon).

So a how about ... ;

Nikon(or Canon or whoever) ; FF mirrorless 4 versions ; 15 or 25 megapixel,and with true glass finder or STRONG 270 degree swivel.
Wth NEW lens mount...but sold with spacer....with full contacts-for all needed info auto.
And if they only wanna do two versions the 15MP having the swivel,and 25MP having the true glass viewfinder;
...so you guys w/ the 25MP can feel supierior.

So - all Nikon lenses will work,but,as you like you can buy slimer/trimmer/smaller -made for camera lenses.!

To really throw a wrench into the works - slightly cropped sensor to 4 to 3 ,or 5 to 4.Or better yet - have this FF sensor mirrorless camera have the FULL time option of 5 to 4 AND 1:1(6X6).

Now let's go shooting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me - personally FF mirrorless camera,15MP,STRONG swivel screen

Now for Non-mirrorless.I love my D5100.Does a good enough job - for what I need...BUT ;
dig this;
round 180 degree image ,Sigma 8-16mm, AWESOME Tokina 10-17,Sigma 70mm macro...
WHAT MORE COULD A PHOTO-PERSON want !?.
Point being(I guess);Camera to head(eye) - mirror through lens...is...my SECOND love.So strongly good.
but second to say GH1 type camera.

So...guess I'd like a super - duper GH1 TYPE camera made.(by some top quality maker)

But I love best Mirrorless/swivel 15MPish MULTIFORMAT - - - - ;
You may be in love with(a camera glued to your head - only kidding)
look through the lens(mirrored)viewfinder.

I really found "Swivel" to be liberating.Being an artsee photographer;
I can keep my glasses on AND SHOOT FROM ABOVE HEAD TO BELOW SHOE LEVEL,AND VERTICALS TOO.
This helps/inspirers me to 'GET THE SHOT'...angles...and the shot matter.

I tried 'Swivels' on SLR's to NO HAPPY END.

So - this thread may be closer than we think ...to getting quality,instant/fast 'swivel' mirrorless shots.

So - yes - I would buy a FF mirrorless interchangeable lens camera...
in my choosing...I'd look for what most "fits me"(best two words in my responce)in available choices...
Remember the alamo - Larry E-30 - Olympus E-30 I thought was going to be the best camera in the world.Horrible shooting 'swivel',horrible noise...and mine was defective....poo...

I feel like Bobby Fisher...waiting in the wings....come on....make me that fast high quality shooter....
I'm ready...I'm waiting .

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Wingman Silver Member Awarded for sharing his excellent work and continued contribution to the forums, most notably at the Aviation forum. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Kimberley, CA  Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2002 Mon 01-Oct-12 05:10 AM
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#78. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 77



No, absolutely not. I shoot serious stuff, with considerable action and sports. My D700 is already too small to steadily hand hold for a lot of what I do. I love my D3, want a D4 and am waiting for the D5.

Neal Nurmi

---Wingman Photo---

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member  Alberta, CA  Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006 Wed 17-Oct-12 04:28 AM
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#79. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I voted yes but only if I can adapt my existing lenses, but I really wanted a choice that allowed me to pick a DX mirrorless.

My motivation is smaller DX mirrorless lenses and body (like what they achieved when Oly/Panny went from 4/3 to m4/3). If I'm going to shoot mirrorless FX I might as well use my big rig FX DSLRs instead as there won't be that much size advantage.

Anyhow I'm not opposed to mirrorless in either DX or FX but it MUST HAVE on-sensor PDAF like on my V1 (but only better by then?). My cameras must have lightning fast continuous tracking AF, which in today's world means PDAF.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support   US  Registered since 25th Jul 2004 Thu 18-Oct-12 11:54 AM
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#80. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



The human eye has far more dynamic range than an electronically generated image, and is "faster". For those reasons I am very leery of EVF.

It makes for a nice alternative but I think we will see mirrors for a long time to come (or I hope). Unless a "mirrorless" camera used some sort of fixed mirror that goes translucent to take the shot; something along those lines. I think that would be a better solution than mirrorless EVF.

The masses like convenience. Photographers want the ability to shoot anything. We will always want something different.

_________________________________
Neil


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richardd300 Silver Member  Dyserth, UK  Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009 Thu 18-Oct-12 01:11 PM
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#81. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 80
Thu 18-Oct-12 01:16 PM by richardd300


<< I think that would be a better solution than mirrorless EVF.>>

Whilst I largely agree, but is it not the case that more and more owners are using live view to compose and ensure sharp focus? If the EVF is the only thing holding the mirrorless market back, I expect that to be resolved in a very short period of time. One problem seems to be the adaption of existing Nikon AF-S lenses.

A few days ago I had an opportunity to borrow an Olympus OM-D and I have to say that if Nikon can produce the same or better viewfinder quality then they can count me in.

Richard

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Thu 18-Oct-12 03:22 PM
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#84. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 81




>Whilst I largely agree, but is it not the case that more and
>more owners are using live view to compose and ensure sharp
>focus? If the EVF is the only thing holding the mirrorless
>market back, I expect that to be resolved in a very short
>period of time. One problem seems to be the adaption of
>existing Nikon AF-S lenses.

Richard (and with plenty of respect for the all the wildlife and landscape photography you obviously love and do well), the whole photography world does not shoot from a tripod. Street shooters (myself included), photojournalists, event shooters and many, many other sorts of photographers, never get even vaguely close to a tripod most of the time. Live View is rarely a consideration.

But I also agree with Neil and others regarding EVF. In my opinion, even the best current EVF implementations including the OM-D you mentioned, the Fujifilm X-Pro1 hybrid EVF I use quite regularly, and the competing EVF systems from both Sony and Panasonic don't effectively replace the bright, accurate, full frame optical viewfinders found in cameras such as the D700/600/800, D3/3s/3x/4, and in the competing models from Canon.

I also have a psychological issue with the use of EVF because I get a mild sense of detachment from the actual scene, composition or subject when using an EVF. I mean to say that while the real scene or subject is right before me, with an EVF I'm looking only at a digitized reproduction of that scene or subject. Seems odd, which is why the Fujifilm hybrid viewfinder is - to me at least - tolerable.

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Howard Carson

  

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richardd300 Silver Member  Dyserth, UK  Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009 Thu 18-Oct-12 03:53 PM
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#85. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 84
Thu 18-Oct-12 03:55 PM by richardd300


<<Richard (and with plenty of respect for the all the wildlife and landscape photography you obviously love and do well), the whole photography world does not shoot from a tripod. Street shooters (myself included), photojournalists, event shooters and many, many other sorts of photographers, never get even vaguely close to a tripod most of the time. Live View is rarely a consideration.>>

Agreed, but I have always been a non tripod shooter for wildlife as capturing overhead birds in flight is very difficult sitting in front of a tripod even with a gimble. In a way it's very much like reportage or events photography, seize the moment or it's gone forever. Now I have the D800 and continue to enjoy landscape photography as much as wildlife the best way to shoot landscape is with a tripod. I am using live view more and more. My results have certainly improved and wish I had used a tripod much more with my D700. That's thanks to Thom's D800 book ticking me off for not using one more ofte

I doubted EVF until I experienced the Olympus OMD, probably a legacy from my first digital camera the Minolta Dimage 7. Using the OM-D gave me an incite into what EVF could be like, although I have to concede it's still not absolutely perfect. I would like to try the latest Sony Alpha range to compare.

I have just bought a V1 as a replacement for my Coolpix P6000 and am very impressed, although the EVF IMHO is behind Olympus in that respect. I think this is a very timely and useful discussion.

Richard

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Thu 18-Oct-12 04:19 PM
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#86. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 85




>I have just bought a V1 as a replacement for my Coolpix P6000
>and am very impressed,

Impressive it is I agree. However, word on the street is that the V2 announcement is expected to be made in just under a week, with the new models hitting store shelves very shortly thereafter.

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Howard Carson

  

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richardd300 Silver Member  Dyserth, UK  Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009 Thu 18-Oct-12 04:42 PM
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#88. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 86



Correct, but the rumours also say it will be a minimal upgrade with perhaps GPS as the biggest attraction. I bought the twin lens kit on e-bay mint and only 3 months old and if one looks at the cost of the two lens individual prices added together I got the camera for nothing Just missed out on a half price FT-1 though

Richard

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nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support   US  Registered since 25th Jul 2004 Thu 18-Oct-12 04:54 PM
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#89. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 84



>> I also have a psychological issue with the use of EVF because I get a mild sense of detachment from the actual scene, composition or subject when using an EVF.

I think you pegged it, Howard. I have an involvement with an optical viewfinder that I have not seen with EVF but I don't own one and have not seen them all. This could be a case of old shoes, many of us having shot this way for decades. But I still like seeing the dynamic range the way it is. An EVF, no matter how good, can only be as good as a good autoexposure meter, and we know the limits of that. The camera never reads our mind.

I mentioned LiveView because I cannot see myself using a zoomed in EVF to shoot BIF, for example, or fast moving birds. Or even hand holding. My old shoes way of thinking (with modern electronic socks maybe) is that zoomed in focusing, via LiveView, or EVF, is for slow deliberate tripod work that is well suited to LiveView.

Hand held shooting, sports and BIF is more of a guttural seat of the pants style shooting where quick reflexes and thinking make the shot. And, frankly, Real Men* don't need fancy modern stuff to focus, beyond what we have now

Just kidding, but I don't see where fancy EVF will solve the focus problems I do have, they being related to very fast moving situations. Old shoes?

* And real ladies too, but it doesn't roll off the tongue right

I do think the LiveView in my D300/D700 is very crude. I would like to see that improved for when that makes sense. Shooting the moon is a great example, where neither works well, but one works better than the other.

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KnightPhoto Gold Member  Alberta, CA  Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006 Wed 31-Oct-12 02:19 AM
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#114. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 81
Wed 31-Oct-12 02:27 AM by KnightPhoto


I tried the FujiFilm X-E1 EVF on Sunday in low light and it was very laggy. I don't recall my V1 EVF being distracting like that...

I'll have to try the OM-D next time I'm at my dealers, I don't recall it being laggy at my dealers shop. I need to compare FujiFilm/OM-D/V2 side-by-side in same conditions and I have not (I have tried each but in three lighting different conditions).

The FujiFilm was in a very low lit exhibition hall, so may not have been fair to the FujiFilm.

BTW, I handled a whole range of OM-D lenses also on Sunday, OMG now I see why Thom, DigLloyd, and others are so excited. They were all featherweights and I couldn't help but think what a nice experience a belt pouch with 4 or 5 of these lenses would be! The FujiFilm's lenses being APS-C, were necessarily larger.

Nikon better keep moving on their 1-system primes. The 50mm FOV at less than $200 goes on my no-brainer list. Anyhow I'm enjoying CX mirrorless to date, for its many advantages. And yes if I'm doing some serious photography, my monster FX kit comes out, so I'm not trying to replace that for a good many years, 5 at least but probably more. In fact, if you give me a DSLR with on-sensor PDAF for use in Live-View still and movies, I don't actually need mirrorless ever on the FX side, whereas as on the CX side it is the small size that attracts me.

Nikon is actually moving very fast on CX, two sensors in one year is very fast for them to move. Will be very interested to see DxOMark on the V2. Interestingly the Sony RX-100 1" sensor beats Canon's 1.5" sensor, so there is potential for the 1" sensor yet.

Best regards, SteveK

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Wed 31-Oct-12 02:01 PM
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#115. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 114



It is enlightening to hear you took the time to seriously investigate an EVF. I believe many are commenting without any recent exposure to a decent mirrorless camera.

A good EVF implementation will allow you to customize the display to add or remove 'distractions' to better match your preferences or shooting situation. I don't see 'too much' information being an issue so long as you get to choose what is displayed on the EVF. Either way, the permutations, combinations and positioning of elements are not fixed like a reflex viewfinder overlay.

I agree that the Nikon V2 shows that Nikon is interested in mirrorless. The control dials are lifted from the Sony NEX-7. That's a good sign but it feels like they are playing catch up already.

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Wed 31-Oct-12 02:43 PM
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#116. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 115



I think everyone is playing catch up with mirrorless. The V1 and V2 deployment is more of a proof of concept. It gets a toe in teh water, but is not the ultimate goal.

The controls are more a matter of the body - the bigger the body the larger the footprint for controls.

The speed and flexibility of mirrorless creates some great opportunities. I could easily see a pro level sports camera in a mirrorless design - the fast frame rates that are possible with mirrorless could really payoff for sports and wildlife. Of course, focus needs to go a long way. And write speeds for moderate to larger files would need to improve. The good news is the next generation CF card has potential for ultrafast write speeds.

The EVF needs work. It's great to have the benefit of seeing what the sensor is actually recording. But responsiveness and flexibility need to improve. Just like the LCD display, you should be able to customize the view in an EVF.

It's interesting, when you think about the EVF, I wonder if you truly need an LCD display. The EVF provides the ability to see what is on a screen just like using a Hoodman Loupe on an LCD. And the power savings of an EVF are significant compared to a 3 inch LCD.


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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Wed 31-Oct-12 02:54 PM
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#117. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 116



The ultimate need for an LCD is an interesting question. I think it will stay around just so you can show images to others. It also doesn't need diopter correction which is an issue for many..

I find with video, I use the LCD more than I used to. I can better see "what I need to shoot next" from this perspective. With still images, I still favor using a viewfinder with both my eyes open.

With the Sony Nex-7, the choice between LCD and EVF defaults to automatic. Images appear on the LCD until the camera's proximity sensor detects your face near the viewfinder. Then the images switch seamlessly to the EVF. Not for everybody, but this feature shows how flexible EVF's can be.

--

Craig

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Thu 18-Oct-12 01:11 PM
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#82. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 80



I like the electronic viewfinder. It has some disadvantages, but it also has some advantages.

The EVF in the V1 eliminates some of the need for chimping or displaying the image after taking a shot. The image is briefly displayed in the EVF. It would be nice to have a menu option to turn off that function when its not needed.

Like Live View, the EVF provides a bit of WYSIWYG. While the eye has a wider dynamic range, you are capturing the image on the sensor, so the eye overstates what you can actually capture. If you combine EVF with a flashing highlights indicator, you could more easily manage blown highlights without having to waste images. I was at the ABQ Balloon Fiesta last week and having subjects 360 degrees around you in all types of light with a rising sun creates all kinds of exposure challenges.

EVF can show you the impact of White Balance settings or other effects before taking the shot. As with Live View, this can help to set the camera correctly. Black & White - or IR compositions in a converted camera - can be a little different and having a viewfinder that displays the desired outcome can make it easier to see the result. The same is true for problematic saturated colors - like purples and reds that are easily blown.

I agree that there are some advantages to having a mirror, but I'm open to the opportunities of an EVF. And for novice users, the EVF is the same thing they see with other devices (phone, tablet, etc.) so the transition is seamless.

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nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support   US  Registered since 25th Jul 2004 Thu 18-Oct-12 01:54 PM
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#83. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 82



The way I look at it, we have live view now. Rather than money spent trying to make EVF replace the "analog view" we get with optics, I'd rather just see LiveView improved, to do what all this more or less blue sky EVF is all about.

Then we have the best of both worlds.

The advantage I see with optical viewfinders is that in a high dynamic range scene, I see the entire dynamic range. It is my job to pick which end, or which range, I want impressed into the image. It is my job to convert the analog world into digital, so to speak. I don't think an EVF will ever (in the forseeable future) be able to do that as well as the human eye via optics. But I was wrong, once, back in 1962, I think

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agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Toronto, CA  Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007 Thu 18-Oct-12 04:28 PM
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#87. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 83



Well said, Neil. A camera that is most useful and most versatile, I think, offers a great optical viewfinder and an improved Live View system as you wrote. The improvements in EVF, generation to generation, include increased resolution, faster refresh rates and more color depth. But realistic refresh, actual color depth and wider dynamic range are still pipe dreams, so in my opinion EVF remains essentially a compromise that accommodates the design and manufacturing of more compact camera bodies, but sacrifices the most accurate and versatile framing & composition tool set in the process.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 18-Oct-12 06:55 PM
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#90. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 87
Thu 18-Oct-12 06:56 PM by Unavailable


Obviously we are all different and have varying criteria.

I prefer a good EVF like the one in my Sony NEX 7 to the optical finder in my D800. I didn't expect this to happen, but I have become a big fan of this OLED EVF.

Here are some of my personal observations:

1. The NEX-7 EVF is brighter (it is backlit after all) - but not in the way you might think. For upwards of 40 years I have taken photographs with both eyes open. My left eye (the optical one) sees the real image - just without framing. My right eye (now, the EVF one) sees the framing and whatever extra information that camera cares to add. I find the backlit OLED VF display works better since it overlays more useful data that better augments what I see in my other eye.

2. My vision isn't what it used to be. My eyes cannot resolve beyond what I can see in the NEX-7 EVF. When it gets dark, things get even worse. A lighted VF is just the trick for me. Being able to zoom-in for critical focusing (in the EVF and not the lens) makes things even better.

3. Minimal shutter blackout. Like many EVF cameras, the NEX-7 has the shutter curtain open at the start of image capture. It closes only momentarily to end the capture process. I wish there was an option to avoid using the mechanical shutter at all (for example, when I deem the lighting sufficient to not require using the shutter curtain) - but I am sure that will come.


My D800 VF is fine. It is better than my D7000 finder. I just like my NEX-7 EVF a bit more.

--

Craig

  

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PerroneFord Silver Member  Tallahassee, US  Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011 Thu 18-Oct-12 09:37 PM
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#91. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 90



This is interesting. As a sports shooter, I am just the opposite. I love the shutter blackout. If I see the EXACT moment I want to capture in the viewfinder, that means I didn't get it on the card. When what I see only the moment before and after, and not the peak moment, I know I got it, and don't even need to review my images. I've been working like this since the 80s.



>3. Minimal shutter blackout. Like many EVF cameras, the NEX-7
>has the shutter curtain open at the start of image capture. It
>closes only momentarily to end the capture process. I wish
>there was an option to avoid using the mechanical shutter at
>all (for example, when I deem the lighting sufficient to not
>require using the shutter curtain) - but I am sure that will
>come.

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 18-Oct-12 11:23 PM
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#92. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 91



>This is interesting. As a sports shooter, I am just the
>opposite. I love the shutter blackout. If I see the EXACT
>moment I want to capture in the viewfinder, that means I
>didn't get it on the card. When what I see only the moment
>before and after, and not the peak moment, I know I got it,
>and don't even need to review my images. I've been working
>like this since the 80s.
>

During the short interval for shutter closing, you see a freeze frame of the captured image in the EVF. That contrasts with reflex camera blackout with its longer mirror up + shutter curtain open + shutter curtain close + mirror down interval, where you see nothing at all.

That's one of the benefits of leaving the shutter curtain open at the start of image capture: You get to see images when they are taken as opposed to just imagining them.

--

Craig

  

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Matto Silver Member  Glenwood, US  Nikonian since 20th Jan 2007 Fri 19-Oct-12 03:06 AM
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#93. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 92



I used an OM D for week, and for my purposes, the EVF worked fine. When I was taking pictures in dim light, I found the EVF to be superior to an optical VF. To each his own.

Matthew

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas   Richmond, US  Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004 Wed 31-Oct-12 05:26 PM
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#118. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Why do I care if it's mirrorless? What difference does the disappearance of the mirror make to the way or result of capturing images? If I could get the same result with a mirror, or with magic fairy dust, why would I care about which implementation is used?

Similarly, why do I care if it's full frame or not? Would a square sensor that is 28mm x 28mm count as "full" frame? If one got the equivalent or better image quality out of a different size sensor, whether that is larger or smaller than 36x24mm, would it matter?

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Martin Turner Moderator Expert professional PJ & PR photographer   Bidford on Avon, UK  Nikonian since 20th Jun 2006 Mon 05-Nov-12 09:52 AM
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#119. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



I've just read through this thread for the first time, having been pointed to it from this thread: http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=190&topic_id=85168&mesg_id=85168&page=

Forgive me for being dense, and for coming late to the party, but what is a mirrorless DSLR? The 'R' in Digital Single Lens Reflex refers to the mirror, so a mirrorless DSLR would be a mirrorless mirror camera.

This isn't just a semantic point. Are we talking about a step-change advance in electronic viewfinders, like a grown-up version of the bridge cameras of ten years ago, or an interchangeable lens compact camera?

I'm a bit baffled with this because these technologies have been around for years, so I'm not seeing the disruptive element. Or is there a new technology I've not spotted?

From my point of view, the advantages and disadvantages are:

Advantages of mirrorless:
No mechanical movement = simpler design, cheaper construction, improved reliability for cost, faster repeat

Disadvantages of mirrorless:
No optical path = useless in very bright sunlight, affected by artefacts such as moire, shutter and viewfinder lag

I was going to put that all the advantages of mirrorless will mean that it comes to dominate the entry level market, but it already does and has done for years. The migration of users has been from mirrorless cameras to dSLRs.

My belief is that mirrorless isn't a technology that threatens dSLRs, but rather a technology that threatens cameras.

Already the most popular 'camera' on flickr is the iPhone.With mirrorless technology you want a lot of processing power and RAM, which is what smartphones have, but nothing else except a lens. In time we will see 100MP smartphone cameras which will dump pixels to give a higher effective ISO and to provide true digital zoom where you still end up with a genuine 8MP picture at 500mm.

The mirrorless camera may be more convenient than the dSLR, but it is less convenient than a phone, because you still have to carry a second device.

From my point of view, a true optical path to the subject will always be the top end of the market for photographers because it is optically simpler, even though it is mechanically more complex. At the D4 level, the cost-up of having a mirror is negligible compared to the other costs of the device. The reduction in bulk is a disadvantage — one reason why I choose a deep body SLR — because a big camera is more ergonomic and more stable.

So, yes, I agree that mirrorless is a disruptive technology, but at the bottom of the market, not the top. Interchangeable lenses can be replaced electronically through pixel dumping, and the result is a camera on your phone which will take any picture a small camera can take, but without needing a camera to go with it.

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rosewood_ltd Silver Member  Akron, US  Nikonian since 10th Sep 2008 Wed 28-Nov-12 05:55 PM
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#120. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 119



Fascinating thread.

I'll begin by saying that I'm pretty ignorant about how mirror-less and traditional DSLR's are put together. I don't have any interest in those details, except as they relate to the end product. What I want to know is, can I comfortably shoot a full frame form factor, hand held under low light conditions, noiseless at ISO 6400? Perhaps I'm misreading the intent of the OP, but who cares if the underlying design is mirror-less or not? It's just a way of capturing an image, nothing more. The only way the technology is relevant is if it provides an opportunity to do things better than existing approaches, without significant penalties in the areas of physical ease of use or learning new systems.

I would also strenuously disagree that mirror-less technology is "disruptive." Examples of truly disruptive technology are those that fundamentally change the way things are done, rendering older technology completely obsolete. Think of the effects of the invention of gunpowder on warfare, the printing press or the internet on the availability of information, the invention of the airplane. Those are real game-changers.

I do not believe that mirror-less camera technology can meet those criteria. The underlying milieu here is still just guiding photons onto the surface of a digital sensor. Now the digital sensor itself, that's much closer to being disruptive in the true sense of the word.

I see no current evidence to suggest that the mirror-less technology is currently capable of matching (for example) my D800 for image quality, dynamic range and most importantly, ERGONOMICS. I think that for a wide variety of reasons, if a pro-level, mirror-less camera designed to be a D4/D800 killer were to appear on the market, that it would physically have an appearance which might end up being rather similar to what we are currently used to seeing and working with.

The discussion of the importance of mirror-less design is important insofar as we ask the question, does it provide the opportunity to completely rethink the fundamental design of the camera and lenses? To the extent that the old maxim "form follows function" is true, I think it rather likely that as mirror-less technology matures, due to the real world demands of the upper-level marketplace, there may not be a lot of dramatic differences in what our future D20000's look like or feel like.

From where I sit, that's just fine.

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography   Memphis, US  Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004 Thu 29-Nov-12 07:42 AM
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#122. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 0



Well as an old commercial said I can't believe I read(ate in the commercial) the whole thing. First I'm glad Martin said it because I was screaming there is no such thing as a mirrorless DSLR since SLR single lens "relfex" means mirror. As far as disruptive I agree but as mentioned I see it more on the low end or even the high end point and shoot cameras. I would love Nikon to make a mirroless FM3a digital version like the OM-D but that I can use my current lens on. But I don't see Nikon falling behind Nikon has always been a tad more conservative than other compaies but they do move with the market.

Last to make a great camera you have to have great glass and none of these companies have the linup of FF glass like Nikon, Canon and even Sigma(I'm not thinking the MF lens like Zeiss and Leica they have their own following) so as I see it they will be playing catchup with the big boys vs the other way around. Its one thing to make small lens for small sensors but its a different world to make FF glass that is pro level quality in both speed and optical quality.

Jim

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Unavailable   Ottawa, CA  Registered since 09th Jun 2012 Thu 29-Nov-12 04:30 PM
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#123. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 122



When talking about "mirrorless DSLRs", most people are aware the name is not exactly right. Let's just agree to focus on "DSLR class" cameras with interchangeable lenses, really fast focusing and great live viewfinders. Some, like the Sony A77, have mirrors to resolve focusing issues. Others, like the NEX-7, provide the same basic functions but without using a mirror at all. FWIW: The new NEX-5R has no mirror - and sadly no EVF - but it does focus on par with A77.

I see DLSRs as technology laggards. Where video cameras abandoned optical viewfinders decades ago, many still cameras just can't get with the program.

Comments like the "you can't see in daylight" conflicts with my experience. The OLED EVF in NEX-7 is pretty much flawless. It works in all conditions - even for me who likes to keep both eyes open when shooting. I wonder if some of you are commenting on the rear LCD - which is NOT an EVF?

While I'm on the 'two eyes open' topic, I rarely see any finder lag time. In addition, I get a quick freeze frame of each image I take. I find this much better than DSLR screen blackout.

Everyone has preferences and biases. I just see a lot of uninformed comments in this thread. How many mirrorless detractors have actually used one extensively? Particularly cameras with a state-of-the-art OLED EVF?

--

Craig

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills   Paignton, UK  Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003 Thu 29-Nov-12 04:39 PM
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#124. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 123



>Everyone has preferences and biases. I just see a lot of
>uninformed comments in this thread.

I agree! Some of the ideas put forward in this thread have certainly been uninformed... right from the first post.

We're not going to get anywhere by going over them again.

Brian
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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Thu 29-Nov-12 05:11 PM
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#125. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 124



This reminds me a lot of the film vs. digital discussion of 10 years ago. Or the protective filter discussions.

The transition from SLR to DSLR was pretty easy. I imagine the transition from DSLR to DSL or something else will be similarly easy.

The speed of transition was extraordinarily fast. Kodak - the dominant provider of film - was in bankruptcy within 5-8 years of mainstream digital. Even some of the film camera companies have disappeared quickly.

Like film vs. digital, there will certainly be holdouts in the mirrored camera environment. And for a while there will be good reasons for holding out, but at some point the technologies will be so far advanced as to cause most to make the move.

And there have been similar comments about the need for video in a DSLR. Most of the participants here at Nikonians have been very negative about video, but every subsequent camera has included video and the market is growing rapidly. While video is not for everyone, it is a lot more important than we thought with the first DSLR video.

I think Craig has created a thought provoking thread. Certainly the 125 posts and 1600+ views indicate more than a minor interest and passion about the topic.

Perhaps a good follow up poll would be about how long it is before a pro level mirrorless camera is released. Perhaps within 2 years?

Give a pro sports shooter 16 megapixel images and a 15-20 FPS frame rate with a mirrorless camera and I am sure many will quickly be on board. The V1 is a proof of concept on many of these ideas, and Nikon indicated at release that it was more than just a new camera.

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography   Memphis, US  Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004 Thu 29-Nov-12 05:21 PM
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#126. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 123



Well I'm not sure you were referring to me as uniformed or bias but to call someones opinion on a subject that is pure speculation is uninformed since none of us truly know what the future of ML, P&S or DSLR cameras or digital photography in general have in store for us. I do not live on an island I understand that the DSLR as we know it will change how much and how fast no one truly knows. As Brian said this thread has just repeated itself in circles and not much more can be wrung out of it. It might be time to close this thread since it seems all sides have expressed their opinions and we will have to agree to disagree.

Jim

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   Colorado Springs, US  Nikonian since 05th May 2002 Thu 29-Nov-12 07:27 PM
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#127. "RE: Will you buy a full-frame mirrorless camera with interchangeable lenses?"
In response to Reply # 126



I agree that it's time to move on to other discussions. Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

Rick Walker

My photos:

GeoVista Photography

  

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