Hi Everyone:

I have a question (and running a poll) that has been intriguing me for some time. Leica is rumored to be introducing an M-Series B&W only sensor camera, shortly. Phase One has one already. My question is: would any one b interested in a B&W sensor camera if Nikon introduces one?

I would depending on the price and a full-frame camera with the form factor of the F100. In other words, a digital F100. The sensors we have now, as I understand it, shoot in B&W, which is converted to color. Even if we shoot in monochrome, the photos are in color that are displayed in B&W or monochrome.

Thanks,

Hektor

Poll result (67 votes) Yes, I would be interested. (8 votes) Vote No, I would not be intersted. (59 votes) Vote

I voted no, because I don't mind loading a roll of black and white film to shoot in black and white. I'd rather do it on film than on digital.

An undeniable paradox: To think that there is any such thing as an absolute rule is at worst naïve, and at best, shortsighted. There is no such thing as an always-true, all context- or situation-salient, absolute rule that always holds true…including this one!

What Al said above.

I still have some rolls of Ilford B&W film in the fridge for the F100.

Anthony

The Moderator Page and My Gallery
The important things in life are simple; the simple things are hard.

It is hard to imagine what any of the advantages would be. As mentioned, a sensor is monochrome already and then there is an overlay of the Bayer filters. I would guess that with a raw file taken with a current generation colour sensor one can obtain pretty much any variant of B&W image. I suppose the Bayer filters rob the sensors of some small fraction of light but I wouldn't think it worthy of creating a dedicated B&W camera. Peter

Maybe. A good proportion of my work ends up B&W anyway. Of course, I'm doing that with current sensors... So the b&w only model would have to offer something substantial that I don't already have. What? I dunno.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

I voted no simply because the last thing I need is an excuse/reason/justification to get another camera. I could be persuaded to change my answer to maybe if a B&W dedicated sensor offered some distinct advantage over what is currently available.

Garrett

This is my Nikonians gallery.

Hi:

Thanks everyone for your comments and votes. If I do not respond, it is because I do not want to comment one way or the other. I already did.

The only thing that I will say is that the poll software will not let me vote twice. I started this thread! You figure.

Keep your very good comments and votes coming; I truly appreciate them,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

Yes, I'd be interested. Obviously such a camera would be a niche camera. I'd like something simple, preferably with more knobs (as opposed to menus) for controlling. A "digital FM" as the saying goes, that works well with manual focus lenses.

...Mike

My website | My Nikonians gallery

>>Would anyone be interested in a B&W digital Nikon?

I've already got three, they are called D800, D700 and D300!!!!!!!!

Regards
Dinil



Struck by Light - Blog & Gallery
Visible Range - Photography & Beyond

If Nikon included camera profiles in the camera that simulated all the historically notable B&W films I might be interested, otherwise I'd rather use Nik Silver Efex Pro. In fact, they could do that now and I wouldn't have to carry around another camera.

Ernesto Santos

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Now offering fine art print services and ICC printer profiling.
Great service - at a great price!

Yeah what the heck, whoever dies with the most toys wins...

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I vote 'No' because Nikon will never get the color response curves that everyone wants. They may get it right for some people and for some situations. On the balance they will get it wrong more often than they get it right.

Lightroom and/or NIK Silver Effects allow me to process to my taste on an individual photo basis. I prefer to take the time after and determine the best color response on the path to B&W.

Daniel McGowan
Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Thom Hogan has had this poll many times. A lot of people would buy. Since there would be no bayer interpolation the resolution would be amazing. I think there would be a lot of takers.

Here's a discussion about the feasibility and possible benefits of a BW digital camera:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/10/bw-sensor-implementation.html


...Mike

My website | My Nikonians gallery

>Here's a discussion about the feasibility and possible
>benefits of a BW digital camera:
>
>http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/10/bw-sensor-implementation.html

That's a good discussion of the relative merits of color conversions verses a monochrome sensor. They don't come to any conclusions but they do highlight many of the issues, some of which rarely come up when this topic is discussed.

Since the dawn of the CCD Sensor astrophotographers have been using monochrome sensors without Bayer filters. Not because they have anything against color images but solely to get the maximum sensitivity possible. They consider color sensors evil because the Bayer filter costs a stop or so of sensitivity, plus a little resolution (not as much resolution loss as most people think, though)

And for them exposures are not measured in seconds but in hours. And in the case where they want a color image they have to re-shoot the same image 3 times, using a color filter wheel, setting up a Bayer filter interpolation the hard way .

It seems to me that the charm of B&W film photography had a lot to do with the selection of film, and there were myriad choices back in the day.

So I have to ask this very critical question: would B&W film be as popular as it was if there were one and only one choice of film?

The digital sensor equivalent of B&W film would be one and only one choice of "film". B&W film varied in two ways:

1. color sensitivity

2. tone curve

You can adjust for different tone curves in post processing but you would lose the ability to adjust color sensitivity. That forces you to use colored lens filters to get the same effect you previously chose with various B&W films. And you could have multiple choices at your disposal relatively cheaply, for the price of a roll of film.

So then the big question becomes: are there enough variations in filters available today to do the same thing. And if not, will the camera makers start making a myriad of special purpose filters just for this niche market of B&W sensor buyers? (probably not ).

I'm answering "no" to the poll. The B&W conversions are good enough for the B&W work I do, and while it may be imperfect, I prefer color sliders to an expensive pile of glass filters I have to carry around, keep clean, etc.

I'm just saying be careful what you wish for, and think through the implications before deciding this is such a hot idea. You are NOT likely going to get a choice of 10 different sensors emulating 10 different old school B&W films. And if you did, would you buy 10 different cameras to get all those special effects?

It would only work like film if sensors were cheap and interchangeable.

_________________________________
Neil
Nikonians Team
My Gallery

Thanks for the good discussion. I was trying to make a similar point - no matter how well Nikon made a B&W camera most people would not like the response *for them*. Your discussion was better than mine. I agree with your points. Thanks for posting.

Daniel McGowan
Visit my Nikonians gallery.

If you're going to make a digital camera that can do B&W right, it should probably be a modified 3-layer Foveon-like sensor, with filter effects selectable on the camera, and the results reflected on the LCD screen in true monochrome.

An undeniable paradox: To think that there is any such thing as an absolute rule is at worst naïve, and at best, shortsighted. There is no such thing as an always-true, all context- or situation-salient, absolute rule that always holds true…including this one!

I agree, but we're back to a color capture at which point I prefer to do the processing in a computer so I can change my decisions and tweak photos as required by/for each.

It would be awesome if Nikon made a Foveon style sensor. I think they could do a very good R&D job. The detail would be very good and no color fringing.

Daniel McGowan
Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>
>So I have to ask this very critical question: would B&W
>film be as popular as it was if there were one and only one
>choice of film?
>

>
>It would only work like film if sensors were cheap and
>interchangeable.

Neil

I wholeheartedly agree - I just tried adjusting a BW image in Silver Efex Pro and there's not much you can do! Imagine a camera that only takes one type of BW film?

The interchangeable sensor idea is a good one - would be great if they could be cheaply produced for a few dollars each, and the sensor could exactly replicate the dynamic range and tonal quality of film ...... Hang on this is nuts I'm getting my F100 out..

W i l l

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Hi Will,

>> and the sensor could exactly replicate the dynamic range and tonal quality of film

One thing no one seems to be discussing is the fact that, at best, a digital sensor could emulate B&W slide film, not B&W negative film. I don't remember a lot of excitement about shooting B&W slide film. I have a book in my library called "The Negative" by Ansel Adams. I don't recall if he ever got around to publishing "The Slide". Is my memory faulty?

- -

I would think that would be a bigger problem than the color mapping. The "tone curve" of various films could be easily emulated in software and people do that now with custom curves.

_________________________________
Neil
Nikonians Team
My Gallery

Neil

I was being flippant - film is the cheap disposable sensor I had in mind

Have a good weekend.

W i l l

Nikonian in Bogor, West Java
www.willsymonds.com
www.willsymonds.blogspot.com
http://www.nikonians-images.org/galleries/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=123586

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Will,

I kinew you were kidding but it got me to thinking about that dynamic range issue that no one talks about

_________________________________
Neil
Nikonians Team
My Gallery

:-)

W i l l

Nikonian in Bogor, West Java
www.willsymonds.com
www.willsymonds.blogspot.com
http://www.nikonians-images.org/galleries/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=123586

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

What about replacing the Bayer filter with a dynamic range increasing ("DRI") filter? The DRI filter would have an ND filter over every other sensel, so half the sensels would be full sensitivity and half would be low sensitivity. This system would be HDR in a single exposure. If the ND filters were 6 stops that would give the sensor 6 stops more dynamic range (I think).

Images from this high dynamic range monochrome sensor would have tonality and detail that would be possible from the color->BW conversion.

...Mike

My website | My Nikonians gallery

I voted No because I think color-images offer much more options for B&W-interpretations. With a pure B&W-camera I would end up with filters on the lens, influencing the whole image - right? A color-image lets me apply different filters selectively and I am not bound by a filter-choice I made while taking pictures. In my opinion there are much more possibilities in a B&W-conversion than in a native B&W-sensor.

Bernhard

Hi Bernhard:

Leica is rumored to be coming out with a black and white M-series camera. I’m waiting anxiously for that development if the rumors are true (May 10.) At this time, I have no information whatsoever on a potential B&W sensor. I do not know who makes it or even if it is CCD, CMOS, Foveon, or any other technology. If Leica comes out with it, then I’ll know much more and could form a more educated opinion.

I have Nik Silver Efex Pro 2 and it is considered their best plug-in. Some are using it as their main PP software and then colorizing the photos – it is that good. However, how much I tried, the photos are not the same as with film. The contrast is missing or not the same.

Three or four years ago I almost got the F100 on eBay. I changed my mind literally at the last minute, because I did not want to deal with film anymore. B&H is selling a brand new imported F100 for $700. I even downloaded the manual and have studied it – great camera. I have been tempted so many times to get it, but I’m committed to digital. If there is no B&W camera, I might still do it.

It is one of the reasons for getting new primes. I really love the F100 and if we get the “digital F-100,” I’m game.

I also do not expect to have a plain B&W camera. It will have many features like built-in filters (yellow, red, orange, blue, green, skylight, etc.) It will come with built-in film simulation and degree of grains, imho. I even expect it to come with an IR feature, if we want to shoot IR. There could be other features that I cannot think about.

We’ll see what Leica does and then go from there.

Best regards,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

>... have many features like built-in filters (yellow, red, orange,
>blue, green, skylight, etc.)

Hello Hektor,
could you please explain, how this would be possible if the Sensor registers only B&W?
Thank you ...
Bernhard

Hi Bernhard:

I do not know the specifics of it, but today all sensors register in monochrome. Then through a process of filters and interpolation, the photos are colorized. To apply a red, green, orange filter, etc would not be that hard. If the B&W cameras do not have those features, they will be non-starters, imho. You get those features with Nik Silver Efex Pro.

Hektor

PS: The rumors are getting stronger:

http://leicarumors.com/2012/04/19/leica-x2-with-18mp-sensor-new-50-summicron-costs-1000-more-leica-monochrome-with-lcd-screen.aspx/

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

>I do not know the specifics of it, but today all sensors
>register in monochrome. Then through a process of filters and
>interpolation, the photos are colorized. To apply a red,
>green, orange filter, etc would not be that hard.


Indeed it would not be at all hard, except it would be a series of red/blue/green filters and it's exactly how our existing color cameras already work.

In other words, the only way you can apply color filters after exposure is to separate the color channels ahead of the sensor, which is what we already have and the opposite of what this thread proposes.

>If the B&W cameras do not have those features, they will be
>non-starters, imho. You get those features with Nik Silver
>Efex Pro.

A true monochrome sensor will record only luminosity data and no color data, at which point the ability to color filter is lost. We'd be back to using color filters on the front of the lens to separate tonality. The payback would be higher ultimate resolution due to lack of Bayer interpolation. I personally don't think this is worth it. If we're to believe internet chatter, lack of resolution is pretty much the opposite of what's plaguing the latest cameras

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

Hi Larry:

I am sure that these concerns or features like the different filters (which is major, imho,) have been addressed and resolved by the makers of the monochrome sensor. Even the Fuji X100 comes with many features like built-in film simulation: Provia, Velvia, and Astia. In monochrome, it has the Ye, R, and G filters.

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/finepix_x100/features/page_04.html

As I stated, I do not know the specifics, but it can be done.

The webmaster at LeicaRumors said:

“I am still not 100% sure, but it seems that the new Leica Monochrome will have a LCD screen,” which means that he is 100% sure about everything else.

http://leicarumors.com/2012/04/19/leica-x2-with-18mp-sensor-new-50-summicron-costs-1000-more-leica-monochrome-with-lcd-screen.aspx/#ixzz1seKIhG5s.

I’m not that convinced. However, we have to wait until and if Leica announces the rumored monochrome camera for most of these issues to be addressed.

Best regards,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

>Hi Larry:
>
>I am sure that these concerns or features like the different
>filters (which is major, imho,) have been addressed and
>resolved by the makers of the monochrome sensor. Even the
>Fuji X100 comes with many features like built-in film
>simulation: Provia, Velvia, and Astia. In monochrome, it has
>the Ye, R, and G filters.
>
Hektor,
you are mistaken here - what you describe is the "normal" monochrome-feature allmost every DSLR offers today. For our Nikons it is done via the Picture Control Utility, but it only works with a sensor that has separate data for each color-channel.
Like stated before, using a monochrome-sensor would mean that you have to use lens-filters again - just like you did/do when using B&W-film.
Bernhard

Hi Bernhard:

I finally finished with everything I had to do (business of life) and able to sit in front of my PC for an hour or so.

No, I’m not mistaken, because I have not said much or taken a definite stand on anything. All I said is that it could be, it can be done, the issues were addressed, I do not know the specifics, but first and foremost let’s wait for Leica’s announcement to see what we are dealing with. I cannot say for certain that it will have all the features. On the other hand, I cannot say for certain that it won’t.

When I was researching my brief article for my blog, regarding the future of digital sensors, in June 2009, I came across an American company that was developing a B&W sensor, but they were at least two years away from marketing it:

http://www.hektorsblog.net/2009/06/next-generation-digital-sensors.html

Famous last words, “It will never happen – what a waste of time, effort, and money.” Therefore, I did not even keep a link to them and cannot find them again.

The vote is overwhelming against considering a B&W sensor camera. I do not disagree with them. I voted: “Yes, I would be interested.” It does not mean I would get it. It only means that I would consider it. I will not have 4 cameras – one of them has to go. I’m much closer in getting the F100 that I am getting a B&W camera. Trust me on this one. I’m not even close in being able to press the “order now” button – not even close.

My intentions are if Leica announces a B&W camera, I will open another thread with the same poll, after posting the Leica’s specs, to see if people have changed their minds or not.

Best regards,

Hektor

PS: Changed my mind. I'm too tired; going to bed. See you in the morrow

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

I came across an American company that was developing a B&W sensor, but they were at least two years away from marketing it:

The LDP LLC website claims to offer monochrome conversoins for some Canon dSLR's, but I don't know if they are still offering the service.

I voted: “Yes, I would be interested.” It does not mean I would get it. It only means that I would consider it.

This cuts to the heart of the matter. Expressing interest in a niche product is free, but companies which want to bring a product to market have to figure out how that interest is going to translate into sales. Some products, like the 45mm PC-E or even the 180mm f/2.8D, seem to generate great interest but sell poorly. Other products, such as IR-converted dSLR's, become surprising success stories. Most other products, such as KatzEye screens, fall somewhere in the middle.

I voted "no," because a) I believe that B&W film will continue as a boutique product for many years, and b) I'm quite happy with the handful of monochrome images I've coaxed out of the D800. But then again if you had asked me in 2005 about an IR-converted dSLR I would have voted "no" as well, so take my "no" with a grain of salt.

If you want to photograph a man spinning, give some thought to why he spins. Understanding for a photographer is as important as the equipment he uses. - Margaret Bourke-White

>I am sure that these concerns or features like the different
>filters (which is major, imho,) have been addressed and
>resolved by the makers of the monochrome sensor. Even the
>Fuji X100 comes with many features like built-in film
>simulation: Provia, Velvia, and Astia. In monochrome, it has
>the Ye, R, and G filters.

Hi Hektor, is it not true that the X100 is a color camera? Then these capabilities do not apply in any way to a monochrome camera.

Here is a pysical truth - if you have color, you can filter certain colors. You can then convert to monochrome. In a true monochrome camera, there is no color data and therefore you cannot apply color filter. It's physically impossible.

Imagine I give you a monochrome picture of 2 apples, both nearly identical luminosity, and tell you to brighten the red one and darken the green one. You have no way of knowing even which was which, nor does the image processor. What you've suggesting is impossible, yet you believe the designers have figured out how to do just this.

>As I stated, I do not know the specifics, but it can be done.

If by "it" you mean apply color filter in software, absolutely it can be done. These are the specifics: The sensor records color data, applies color filter, then converts to monochrome. This would mean your "monochrome" camera is really the same as your current camera except crippled so it won't output a color image. Given that all existing color cameras already do exactly what you're proposing this new camera might, but also output color too, I don't see the advantage or marketability of the former.

Therefore a true monochrome camera must require optical not software color filtering i.e. carry color filter for your lens.

Actually I think anybody buying such a camera would expect to use optical color filters anyway. To me it's part of B&W photography.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

The Leica Monochrom announced. Only $7,950.00.

http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/

...Mike

My website | My Nikonians gallery

>The Leica Monochrom announced. Only $7,950.00.
>
>http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_monochrom/
>
Hi Mike:

Yes, only $7,950, but it comes with Lightroom 4 and Nik Silver Efex Pro 2 included!

In a couple of days, after I get all the info, I'll run another poll for a NIKON equivalent camera and not equivalent in price

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

>In a couple of days, after I get all the info, I'll run
>another poll for a NIKON equivalent camera and not equivalent
>in price


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/leica_m9_monochrom.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/kodak-760m.shtml

An undeniable paradox: To think that there is any such thing as an absolute rule is at worst naïve, and at best, shortsighted. There is no such thing as an always-true, all context- or situation-salient, absolute rule that always holds true…including this one!

Hi Al:

Thanks for the links. I'll use the Luminous-Landscape one. Very interesting about the Kodak monochrome camera; I was not aware of it. Ten years ago!

I just started getting all the info for the new thread.

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

I particularly like his offhand comparison to D800e...



It was really difficult to differentiate between it and prints that I was making at the same time taken with the 36 Megapixel Nikon D800E. In other words, numbers don't tell the whole story (humm...I think I've written this before), and thus the new Leica MM definitely punches above its weight category.

So... by removing the Bayer filter, we get allow a 18MP monochrome camera to perform at similar resolution to a 36MP color camera. i.e. for more than double the price, you only lose the ability to take color photos. But, I get that this camera is designed to appeal to an aesthetic more than it is to compete in the market. For the type who likes to imagine they're HCB reincarnated I get the appeal.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com