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Subject: "Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?" Previous topic | Next topic
MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Thu 27-Aug-09 03:19 PM
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"Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"


AW
          

I hope so and after today's Sony announcement of the A850, things are heating up in full frame sensor camera world.

""

  

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Mark V
27th Aug 2009
1
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27th Aug 2009
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27th Aug 2009
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blw Moderator
28th Aug 2009
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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Thu 27-Aug-09 03:44 PM
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#1. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 0


Los Angeles, US
          

I suspect they have somebody working on it. But, when it's released (if ever) will be anyone guess. Nikon is as secretive as Apple and nothing leaks out.

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Thu 27-Aug-09 03:54 PM
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#2. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu 27-Aug-09 04:15 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

This latest Sony announcement really got me thinking.

For DX owners contemplating full frame - most of us will need some new lenses to go with the FX format and all of a sudden, the new Sony looks very tempting at $1999.95. They have also introduced a budget minded, ($800) 28-75mm constant aperture f/2.8 lens which I have totally given up hope of Nikon introducing. My way of thinking is this is a real threat to sales of the D700/D300s for potential APS sensor upgraders. On the one hand, the price is just $200 more than a D300s and $350 less than average street price on a D700, along with a similar build to both cameras, (metal body, weather sealed) and finally, 24.5 mpixels.

""

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Thu 27-Aug-09 04:15 PM
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#3. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 2


Los Angeles, US
          

Sony is still in third place and has yet to become a threat to Nikon or Canon. Plus Sony has some issue with the Pro shops. For some reason unknown to me a lot of shops will not, or can't carry Sony. They remain a department store/mail order camera.

However, If Sony ever gets their act together they have the resources to take over. (Hire less lawyers and more camera people?)

We shall see....

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Thu 27-Aug-09 04:46 PM
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#4. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 3


AW
          

>Sony is still in third place and has yet to become a threat to Nikon or Canon.

Hmmm, well, if Sony had not designed and fabbed out the sensors in all the latest Nikons, (I know, I know, Nikon engineers have made changes to the designs to make them a better sensor, but the primary design is all Sony), Nikon would be really groveling along right now.

""

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 28-Aug-09 12:16 AM
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#5. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 2


Richmond, US
          

Full frame is a lot more expensive than that, at least for some folks. Consider the D90 user with 16-85VR and 70-300VR.

Assume that there's a $2000 D600. But then you need the hypothetical 24-105/f4 AFS Nikkor at probably $1000, and what to do about the longer end? The hypothetical 80-400 AFS VR? At $2000? That's two hypothetical lenses at $3000, added onto the $2000 body, total $5000. Compared to the $1000 D90 + $600 16-85 and $550 70-300 = $2150.

What does that additional $2850 buy? Loss of 50mm of effective focal length on the long end, double the resolution - most of which I think most D90 users won't use - and arguably, a stop and a half of high ISO. (A D700 has a stop and a half better high ISO than the D90, and maybe a 24mp D600 would have it too.) And at 24mp and FX, how well do those $1000 and $2000 lenses hold up? Even if we assume perfectly, how well do a typical D90 user's technique and tripod hold up for a 24mp image?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 28-Aug-09 01:36 AM
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#6. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 5
Fri 28-Aug-09 01:42 AM by MstrBones

AW
          

Brian,

Nikon is not meeting my needs today. Period. I imagine my requirements are different in some ways than others, because I don't care particularly about FX, but I do crave the increased DR and clean shadows of that format over DX.

>What does that additional $2850 buy?

Well, your lens example is exactly what makes Nikon FX really unattainable, right now, for me, beyond just the body price. But, what a lower rez CMOS type DX sensor would buy me is more DR and better shadows. That is all I need. I have no "pro" aspirations or bloated beliefs in becoming the next Ansel Adams. I do know however, after 35 years of photography, what I want in a camera.

If Sony or Nikon came out with a 12 mpixel FX D90-like body and they have their prosumer grade $800 28-75mm f/2.8, that would cover 99% of my needs.

""

  

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Floridian Silver Member Nikonian since 11th Feb 2007Fri 28-Aug-09 02:01 AM
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#7. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 5


Tallahassee, Florida, US
          

Sounds like you may be looking down a bit on the skills and demands of the typical D90 user, Brian... but even though I have a D300 I fit your description pretty well! My longer lenses are an 80-200 f2.8 and 80-400VR, and I wouldn't want the extra expense, or the extra size and weight, to go to 300mm f2.8 and out to 600mm on FX. And at 12mp, I've never wished for more, and most of the time could do fine with less.

I'm just an amateur hobbyist, maybe not as serious a photographer as many Nikonians, but that's true of the D90 market in general. While some are looking to move "up" to FX, a bigger camera and bigger lenses just doesn't appeal to me. I prefer DX, and even am looking more "down" than "up." If a good four-thirds option presented itself, I might be tempted to go that way just to have less bulk and weight.

DX seems like a pretty good compromise to me. Less size, weight, and expense than FX, but good image quality, the ability to shoot in poor light, and the same selection of lenses as is available to FX shooters (but at 1.5x, which to me is an advantage).

The reality is, if there's a market for it, Nikon will make it. But I wonder how many people in the market for a D90-type camera would view FX as a big advantage over DX?

Randy

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 28-Aug-09 02:37 AM
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#8. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 7


Richmond, US
          

> Sounds like you may be looking down a bit on the skills and demands of the typical D90 user, Brian...

Perhaps, but:

- One can make a pretty darn good 24x36 print from a 12mp file. How many D90 users make bigger (eg 30x40 or bigger) prints than this on a routine basis? I'd guess not very many. There sure aren't a lot of folks with more money invested in their printers than bodies. (Eg Epson 7900 = $5k, D90 = $1k. Even an ink cartridge reload on the 7900/9900 is almost the price of the D90.)

- I am having plenty of trouble myself with 12mp - my keeper rate is pretty seriously down between the D2h and D2x (half?), and it's hard to imagine that this is due to the camera. Perhaps 24mp is not as big a difference from 12 as the D2h is from the D2x, but it is surely not easier.

- When it comes to tripods, how many D90 users have more invested in their tripods than their cameras? Certainly not a full indication of technique, but 24mp makes full demands in this area.

- For those who think that 24mp is useful because of cropping, I think that's an indication of lens or photographer issues, not a reason to have a lot more pixels.

> The reality is, if there's a market for it, Nikon will make it. But I wonder how many people in the market for a D90-type camera would view FX as a big advantage over DX?

Frankly, I think that FX will be a big hit for Nikon. Despite the variety of issues above (yours as well as mine and I'm sure there are others), I am pretty sure that if Nikon offer a $1000 FX body, it will trigger a substantial DX-to-FX upgrade wave, along with accompanying FX lens upgrades.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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yelcab Registered since 30th Nov 2006Fri 28-Aug-09 12:03 PM
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#9. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 8
Fri 28-Aug-09 02:47 PM by yelcab

San carlos, US
          

FX is a big hit for Nikon only if it can proliferate the FX sensor to the masses. You are right in that if Nikon makes a FX $1K camera, there would be a large demand for it. However, for me, it would be an additional camera, and not a shift from DX to FX. There is always that 1.5 factor at the long end that is hard to give up with DX.

By the way, where is that magical 1K FX camera?

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 28-Aug-09 12:51 PM
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#10. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 9


Richmond, US
          

> where is that magical 1K FX camera?

I think it's still a couple of years away. There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference between the $2k A850 and the $1k D90, other than the sensor and supporting circuitry. So I'd say that the yield of the sensor is going to have to skyrocket, or some new fab technology will have to come in to being, or it will still be a couple to several years away. Without a major change in fab cost, the several hundred dollars in parts cost difference will come out of the reduction in non-sensor fab components.

An FX sensor is still 3x bigger than the largest commonly fab'ed chip (Intel or AMD cpus, or nVidia GPUs), and roughly speaking the price of a chip is proportional to the square of the area. The other key is volume, but even the volumes of DX (a couple of million per year) are dwarfed by the cpu and gpu volumes (tens to low hundreds of millions per year).

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 28-Aug-09 02:47 PM
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#11. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 10
Fri 28-Aug-09 02:49 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

Thom Hogan makes the very excellent point that Nikon gets real economies of scale by deploying cheaper cameras using the same sensor fab for more expensive cameras. That means a FX 12 mpixel D90-like camera is a very logical next step.

The D90 already shoots 4.5 frames per second with its current sensor, (same overall number of pixels), so that means no need to really change the pipeline, no need for 14 bit images, really, and the AF is basically D200ish, and I really like my D200's AF, so for me, that is adequate.

IMO, Nikon will miss a huge sales opportunity if they wait two years to intro a FX prosumer with appropriate quality lenses. By appropriate, I mean quality like the 18-70mm DX that made the original D70 such a price/value - the 18mm series DX lenses are all very sharp across their focal lengths from wide open to stopped down. A similar lens, like the Sony lens mentioned earlier, would be a killer package.

""

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 28-Aug-09 02:57 PM
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#13. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 11


Richmond, US
          

I agree that 12mp FX would the way to hit the mass market. The problem is that 12mp vs 24mp is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to fab cost. The problem is the area, which is by definition fixed precisely because it's FX, meaning 36x24mm. Doing 12mp would mean that the supporting circuitry wouldn't need to be state-of-the-art (for 2009), but the cost of the 864 sq mm (plus larger shutter, larger prism and larger mirror, all of which pale by comparison) is what drives the price. Given that both Canon and Sony could, if they chose, offer full frame at less than their current price points, I think that's evidence that the FX at $1k has negative margins. (And I have other evidence from the chip world that suggests the same thing.)

So I'd say that we have a ways to go before we get $1k FX. That means that 12mp won't be the sweet spot when it comes out - probably the marketing pressures will be there to go to 24mp two years from now. Of course, by then, 24mp @ 4-5 fps will be commodity parts, in the same sense that 12mp is today.

> quality like the 18-70mm DX that made the original D70 such a price/value

Say, like the 28-105 AFD returning in AFS or even AFS VR form? Or the 28-200 G, again in AFS VR? Heck, I'd buy a 28-200 AFS VR to put on a D3 if it were priced similarly to the 18-200VR.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 28-Aug-09 03:35 PM
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#14. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 13


AW
          

>Say, like the 28-105 AFD returning in AFS or even AFS VR form?

At a constant f/4, that would be a nice lens. I'd accept a shorter focal zoom range if they'd make a constant f/2.8, and that would give Sigma/Tamron a headache too.

From my experiences, I really prefer Nikon lenses and right now, that is all I am using. I personally hope that the 28-75mm f/2.8 that Sony has come up with for $800 sells like crazy and influence Nikon to respond with something similar. I imagine D700 users would like such an option.

""

  

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Char30 Registered since 28th Aug 2009Sat 29-Aug-09 02:05 AM
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#15. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 14


US
          

As a person who has no experience with either Nikon or Sony cameras, I want the Nikon D300s and was ready to order; however, with the Sony A850 there is no video and no need to wonder why I cannot purchase a wide-angle lens with VR, of course, there is no need for it with the Sony, and full frame to boot.

Now I am waiting, just for another month, to see if Nikon plans to release something new, maybe to be released by Christmas. Its funny, we have Sony everything, TV, Blu-ray, HD Camcorder, etc. and we are happy with all of it. But DSLR and Sony versus Nikon I have to take it a little slower.

Char

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sat 29-Aug-09 02:51 PM
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#18. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 15


AW
          

Char,

You don't need VR with a wide angle lens. That is why no one builds them.

I am excited about the Sony announcement on FF, only because it should put pressure on Canon and Nikon to get FF down to the unwashed masses.

""

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 28-Aug-09 02:54 PM
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#12. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 10


AW
          

>So I'd say that the yield of the sensor is going to have to skyrocket, or some new fab technology will have to come in to being, or it will still be a couple to several years away.

For all we know, they have completed an upgraded fab already. They may be even using it for the D700, Nikon is pretty secretive about their sensor fab relationships and Sony is not blabbing either, (or Samsung in some cases).

""

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Sat 29-Aug-09 04:49 AM
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#16. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 12
Sat 29-Aug-09 04:59 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

There are a few other things to consider:

1) Sony's flash technology is old as dirt it is still based on Minolta's last system.

2) You not only have to replace your lens but the flash system so some of the savings over the D700 starts to whittle down.

3) If you use NX2 like I do and like it, it means a new learning curve and new software.

4) Sony is extremly limited in lens over 300mm as a matter of fact I can not find a Sony made lens over 300mm.

5) Sony's AF system is no where near as good as Nikon's and having used Sony's flaghsip it is slower than my D200 so I know it is slower than the D700.

6) Effectiveness of Sony's built in VR vs Nikon's lens VR this is harder to judge. From reviews and reports Nikon's VR is at least a stop better in the newer lens. This may not mean as much and it does(Sony) provide body based VR so wide angle lens and pro 2.8 standard zoom lens will have VR vs Nikon so this is kind of a push.

7) I have yet to see a report where Sony's IQ is better than Nikon or Canon.

8) Have you used a Sony? LIke I said I got to use the A900 for several days when a friend who was/is a huge Minolta user and bought one and he let me play, the interface is horrible if you are used to and like Nikon ofcoarse this is super subjective.



Now in the end my friend stuck with the Sony because he had a ton of good Minolta glass and he bought some of the newer Zeiss(I think Zeiss I will have to ask) glass and the A900 is a very good camera but I am not sure I would trade a D700 for it. The speed of the Nikon is noticble. But is the Sony A900 a good caemra yes heck for its price it is a great camera if you had no investment in any maker or had Minolta gear.

For what it is worth this is one of those topics that is your results may vary and each photographer has to buy the tools that will work for him. My views may not apply at all to you or anyone else. I would get your hands on a Sony and give it a test drive who knows you may love it and make the switch.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sat 29-Aug-09 02:38 PM
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#17. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 16
Sat 29-Aug-09 02:48 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

Jim,

I think maybe you are missing my point. I don't want Sony gear and never said I did. I want a Nikon camera with increased DR and shadow quality, I don't care what format, (DX/FX), but on par with D700 image quality, which is why I have said, in other posts in other threads, that I would love to see an 8-10 megapixel Nikon with the latest sensor technology and I think there is a substantial market for such a camera once discerning photographers could see its images. Of course, Nikon would have to do like they did with cameras like the D70s and maximize resolution with less severe AA filters. Frankly, I printed hundreds of D70s images on my Epson r2400 at 12x18, (to leave a 1/2 inch border), and these images look great. I make this point, because I don't need a camera with more pixels than my current D200.

All that said, I think for $200-$250 more than the current D90 body price, Nikon could produce a FX version of the camera. Why would I say that?

Well, contrary to the idea that an FX sensor is $1000 higher than a DX sensor , the new Sony's pricing is exactly $200 more than a D300s, the new top of the line DX Nikon. If that is the case, and if both cameras are weather sealed, metal body, advance AF, blah, blah, blah, then where is the $1000 sensor cost difference? Also, the D90 should be a weather sealed camera, like the Pentax K200D, which is a similar build quality polycarbonate exterior with a interior metal frame camera, except, fully weather sealed and the body cost $1000 when it first came out.

Nikon could do this and we could have a weather sealed, FX body D90 for $1200 to $1300.

""

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 29-Aug-09 03:07 PM
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#19. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 17


Richmond, US
          

With all due respect, you're giving Sony a little more credit than I think they deserve. The D300s AF system is considerably more advanced than the Sony A900's; in fact it's arguably better than the Canon 1D Mk III.

The Canon 5d Mk II has a crippled AF system precisely because Canon could not afford to put in a more advanced model and keep the price point. Now that was a couple of years ago and I'm sure they can do better now.

If Nikon could do a D90-FX for $1300, why is Sony's A850 $2000? That doesn't seem logical. $700 is a lot of extra margin. They can't be price gouging in order to gain market share... If someone were to decide to buy market share with a $1300 FX camera, it would be Sony with the deep pockets, not Nikon.

An 864 mm**2 chip costs an OEM buyer like Nikon (or HP, or Asus, or...) about $600-700 these days, give or take some depending on yield and co-development agreements. Where's the margin in a a $1300 camera? You still have to produce the rest of the camera and make a profit. I don't know who do Sony's fab. If they do their own, they can play accounting games to make them "cost" less to Sony, but don't forget that if they have their own fab, they had to finance the fab in the first place, which costs around $1.5B these days.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sat 29-Aug-09 03:12 PM
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#20. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 17


Paignton, GB
          

>All that said, I think for $200-$250 more than the current D90
>body price, Nikon could produce a FX version of the camera.
>Why would I say that?

I don't know why you'd say that, to be honest. Even within the Sony range, the new "cheap FX" camera - the A850 - is around $1000 more than the new "DX" camera - the A550. A price difference of $200-250 between DX and FX versions of basically the came camera is probably unattainable in today's market.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sat 29-Aug-09 04:14 PM
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#22. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 20
Sat 29-Aug-09 04:23 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

>I don't know why you'd say that, to be honest.

Look at it this way, if you would for a moment.

Lets look at the components in the D300s, A850, and D700. If I leave anything out, just add it in, all these cameras will have it.

Sensor
Mirror/Shutter mechanism
Electronics
Metal body
weather seals
Finishing materials
charger
Battery
some cables
some software to process images
Lens not included in this price.

Nikon D700 - B&H, all day long, $2350 - originally at $2999.99
Sony 850 - Announced at $1999.99
Nikon D300s - $1799.99

Where is the big price differentiator? The sensor?

Ok so, apparently Sony can build their camera cheaper than Nikon?

I don't think so. In fact, the D700 was PRICED against the old Canon 5D so I am not buying the "fab process cost more for the big sensor" argument. Heck, the same thing was said about CCD APS sensors vs. P&S camera sensors 4 years ago and wow, look at the prices today for a D3000 vs a Canon G11.

The fact of the matter is, in semiconductor fab today, the manufacturers really know what they are doing, they are not out on some ledge trying to scrape just a couple good chips off a wafer. I have worked in the electronics industry since 1981, been around fab a fair amount working for companies like Digital Equipment Corporation and IBM, and I can assure you I am not out on much of a limb here with the following assertion - circuits, whether a complex CPU or a CMOS FF sensor, are commodity items today.

Second assertion for my statements - It has nothing to do with costs as relates to the three cameras I am looking at here.

For Sony, to gain market share, they are going to sacrifice D700 like margins to compete with the D700 and the D300s. They are at $1,999.99. It is a great price point for the camera, smack dab between the two Nikons.

One last thing, and here is just how much margin is floating around in these cameras - I bought a brand new D200 last January for $799.99 - originally, a bunch of folks paid $1,699.99 for these. The very last of the cameras went a couple months ago for ~$600.


""

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 30-Aug-09 03:50 PM
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#29. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 22


Paignton, GB
          

And I think you are missing my point.

No-one here truly knows what the additional manufacturing cost of an FX sensor is compared with a DX sensor, but I'm not arguing about what the costs or margins might be.

Neither Sony nor Canon are (so far) willing or able to offer an "FX" camera with a $200-250 premium over a similar DX camera, so I cannot understand why you think Nikon should be able to do so.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sun 30-Aug-09 08:22 PM
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#30. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 29
Sun 30-Aug-09 08:32 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

>And I think you are missing my point

That's been known to happen.

>No-one here truly knows what the additional manufacturing cost of an FX sensor is compared with a DX sensor



I have an old associate that designs semiconductor fabrication facilities, (formerly, for Digital Equipment Corporation, Intel, IBM), and has done them globally and repetitively. We met when I worked on an image sensor project for a very advanced X ray sensing product from 2002 through 2003.

I spent a lot of time with Ian while he designed the mass produced fab manufacturing process and facility along with the associated costs for these chips. We were projecting startup costs, the possibilities of buying excess capacity in other semi-conductor fabs, and trying to estimate our usable yields of these chips.

Our prototype chips we had built on a custom basis in Japan for our customer evaluation kits.

Suffice to say, this sensor is beyond CCD, (the standard today in X Ray sensors deployed in equipment worldwide in industrial and medical applications), beyond CMOS and provides a quantum efficiency that makes our current sensors look like they don't know what a photon is. In fact, it has an infinite DR, as it actually COUNTS PHOTONS at each pixel location and is fantastically fast as it reads out all pixels in parallel simultaneously.

This technology came out of CERN and was developed in Finland, where I spent time with the chip designers and scientists in Helsinki being "educated". The reason I was being "educated", was so I could talk with the physicists and engineers at GE, Phillips and Siemens to explain the technology and get them started with evalutation kits for future X ray imaging equipment projects. BTW, these sensors are extremely hard to fabricate, they are nothing like CMOS sensor designs.

I learned a lot during that period of my life, in fact, I had a great time.

BTW, I think I feel good with my napkin cost estimate on an FX sensor D90-like camera and that it is more than an achieveable product.

I think we are dealing more with a business plan of Nikon's rather than any technical realities. Been known to happen - just look at Intel CPU introductions for the last 20 years for an example.


""

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Sun 30-Aug-09 03:40 AM
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#23. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 17
Sun 30-Aug-09 03:44 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

Gotcha I fully understand but do you think there is enough photographers that would buy a 8 or 10 CMOS with super DR and high ISO capability to make it worth Nikon finacial well being? I say this because most consumers are megapixel crazy. But I fully see your point now.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
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I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Digital_Don Registered since 20th Feb 2006Sat 29-Aug-09 03:35 PM
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#21. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 7
Sat 29-Aug-09 03:38 PM by Digital_Don

US
          

Couldn't have said it better myself, Randy. I am perfectly happy with my D300, SB600 and assorted Nikon glass. I'm a hobbiest - no need to run out and buy (nor can I afford to) the latest 'advancement' in digital photography. Take pictures, have fun, learn what you can to improve and don't fret the small stuff.


Don

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Sun 30-Aug-09 03:48 AM
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#24. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 21


Memphis, US
          

Heck Don I am very happy with my D200 I have yet to feel the urge to upgrade it does everything I need so I understand your feelings. I keep waiting for the D700 market to come down or upgrade and I will try and get a very good used D700 like I did with my D200.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
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I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sun 30-Aug-09 02:44 PM
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#26. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 24


AW
          

>I keep waiting for the D700 market to come down or upgrade

That's my hope as well, I got into my D200 for a reasonable price and even if I spent 50% more for an end of the line D700, that would be great. Problem is, I personally believe the D700 is a watershed camera that will be popular for many, many years, even far beyond its production days.

""

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sun 30-Aug-09 02:40 PM
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#25. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 30-Aug-09 02:48 PM by KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
          

Hi David,

If I'm not mistaken, Thom Hogan has espoused the similar barriers to those expressed here by BLW and others. The stars aren't aligned yet to be able to price a D90FX where it would need to be for that market space, Given this situation may persist for a couple more years, my advice is find another way to get the D700. The D700 IQ really does sound like exactly the tool you need (or that D400 back-illuminated we were waiting for)

Now I just need to sell some assets to get the 24-70mm to go with mine..

Nikon needs to stay profitable, the Japanese economy is a mess, and given their election today, government is about to change there.

Best regards, SteveK
My Nikonians gallery
'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sun 30-Aug-09 02:45 PM
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#27. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 25


AW
          

Steve,

Since the moment that camera came out, I have wanted one. See my post to Jim above about our late adopter plans!

""

  

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yelcab Registered since 30th Nov 2006Sun 30-Aug-09 03:25 PM
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#28. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 25


San carlos, US
          

>Hi David,
>
>Nikon needs to stay profitable, the Japanese economy is a
>mess, and given their election today, government is about to
>change there.
>
>Best regards, SteveK

Japanese economy is doing better. Nikon just happens to be very very conservative in their market strategy. Canon is more aggressive. And Sony, as a late comer to the game is also much more aggressive.

  

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will fly Registered since 19th Dec 2006Wed 02-Sep-09 07:00 AM
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#31. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 28


Fleet, GB
          

So what will be the Nikon model number of their answer to the Canonb 7D

18Mp APS-C - Nice
Dual Digic 4 processor - Nikon dual Expeed (think not)
19-point AF - WHY ??? why dont Canon have 51 point like D300 ?
8 FPS - nice but Nikon can do that
ISO 6400 - As good as a D3 with a higher res APS-C sensor ? I'd like to see that.
Built in wireless speedlight transmitter - at last, come on Nee-Kon.

That should have been the D300s

Roy.


Happiness is a 70-200 2.8 in your hand

Visit my Nikonians gallery.
Visit www.willfly.net/galleries for more photos
Visit My Flickr Gallery


UK Nikonian.

  

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Floridian Silver Member Nikonian since 11th Feb 2007Wed 02-Sep-09 03:22 PM
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#32. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 31


Tallahassee, Florida, US
          

>So what will be the Nikon model number of their answer to the
>Canonb 7D...
>
>That should have been the D300s

The thread was originally about FX cameras, so I'm not sure we're on topic here, but what's the big advantage of the 7D over the D300s? Lots of people look at megapixels, but at 12mp, I'd rather stay there and get better high-ISO performance than add to my megapixel count.

Randy

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Fri 04-Sep-09 12:12 AM
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#33. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 04-Sep-09 12:25 AM by MotoMannequin

Livermore, CA, US
          

This has been an interesting conversation. For me, D90FX doesn't really excite. Being a landscape shooter, I'm typically on a tripod shooting at minimum ISO, where I think the benefit of FX isn't so great. When I shoot wildlife, the ISO performance of the D300 has been good enough, and I love the extra effective reach from the increased pixel density. If I was shooting action in a poorly lit gym, then my opinion might be very different.

But, I recognize that smaller & more dense isn't necessarily better, otherwise we'd all be shooting FourThirds or P&S. Larger isn't necessarily better either, or we'd all be shooting medium/large format. There must be an optimum compromise between portability, cost, and sensor size. As the world is right now, this is what DX does for me:

- 10mm (15mm equiv) lens that takes 77mm filters: DX I own 2, FX no option.
- 300mm (450mm equiv) f/5.6 AF-S VR portable lens: DX I own 1, FX at least Sigma covers this to 400mm f/5.6.
- 400mm (600 equiv) f/4 AF-S VR: DX use the 200-400 f/4 $5K, FX use the 600 f/4 $9K?

To take an objective look at what I need from Nikon, it's quite clear where the technology falls short, and that's dynamic range. I HDR or otherwise blend nearly 100% of my quality, golden hour landscape shots. I stitch hardly any. I shoot at minimum ISO. That shows that I need increased DR a lot more than I need increased pixel count or high-ISO performance. I know 12MP FX will buy me a stop or 2 more DR, and a stop or 2 more ISO, but that's not close to what I need.

Like David, I print with an R2400, and I've recently come to the realization that I'm not taking advantage at all of the D300's 12MP with that printer. My 6MP camera did 13x19 perfectly well, provided my shot discipline was good. That's not to say I didn't need the D300, just that now I need a bigger printer

What I need, to get excited about FX, and I hope some technology goes this way in the not-to-distant future: 24-48MP FX where the Bayer filter interleaves high and low density micro-filters, to produce an effective 6-12MP image with 15-20 stops of dynamic range. Because pixels would be binned to produce larger effective pixels with increased DR, this should keep us at the same diffraction limits of the current D3/D700 cameras, which for the sake of DOF, is about the same as the D300. It would give me plenty of pixels for printing quite large. And it gives a raison d'etre for all those pixels. Even better, put it in a retro-styled "F" body with no frills/no AF motor at ~$2K.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 04-Sep-09 03:29 PM
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#34. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 33
Fri 04-Sep-09 03:32 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

>What I need, to get excited about FX, and I hope some technology goes this way in the not-to-distant future: 24-48MP FX where the Bayer filter interleaves high and low density micro-filters, to produce an effective 6-12MP image with 15-20 stops of dynamic range. Because pixels would be binned to produce larger effective pixels with increased DR, this should keep us at the same diffraction limits of the current D3/D700 cameras, which for the sake of DOF

Interesting post. I was reading Thom Hogans review of the D3x yesterday and the issue of diffraction, AA filters, and the exact AF fine tune of lenses certainly drives the final image.

Hogan modified his D3 by having the AA removed. What is interesting in his test shot comparisons of that camera against the 2nd D3x he procured, is that when the images from the D3 were resized to D3x dimensions, they looked cleaner, sharper, even more detailed, though it took some study to see the differences.

All that means to me is the current FX 12 mpixel sensor, with a minor alteration, is capable of uber resolution to allow for huge prints. It is also far less subject to diffraction at higher aperture values than either the D3x and the D300/s models, (and the high mpixel Canons out there now too).

Edit to add - link to a company that will remove your AA filter.
http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d200hr.htm

""

  

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Valentino Gold Member Awarded for high level skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 04th Dec 2004Fri 04-Sep-09 06:18 PM
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#35. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 34
Fri 04-Sep-09 06:26 PM by Valentino

US
          

All that means to me is the current FX 12 mpixel sensor, with a minor alteration, is capable of uber resolution

Another interpretation is that the most lenses may not be capable of taking full advantage of the higher resolution sensor. I started a thread on this a while ago Do Higher Resolution Sensors ofter higher resolution (David, I know this is old news and you have seen that thread but what the heck, I post the link again anyway)

Albert J Valentino
Nikonian Moderator Emeritus

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Mastery of Composition is the Key to Great Photography

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 04-Sep-09 08:46 PM
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#36. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 35
Fri 04-Sep-09 09:01 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

Albert,

>I post the link again anyway

I think it fits in fine as a dovetail to this conversation about DR, sharpness and resolution.

Just for the heck of it, after thinking more about Thom Hogan's article, I took pictures of a scene with my D70s and D200 - both using my 50mm 1.8.

Both are at their lowest ISO and at f/10 and on tripod. Both compressed RAW, sharpening off, adobe color space, and I set the WB in NX to exactly the same value for both images. Converted to TIFF, then put them side by side in CS2.

The first image is a cropped screen shot, unsharpened. The second is the same cropped image, sharpened - I applied the exact same sharpening to both images.

Hard to tell the diff, in my opinion. I think that would be different, however, if the D200 did not have such a severe AA filter.







""

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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Valentino Gold Member Awarded for high level skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 04th Dec 2004Fri 04-Sep-09 09:18 PM
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#38. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 36


US
          

you didn't make it clear which was which D70 or D200. The image on the lower right is suffering from some slight processing artifact. I took your first, unsharpened image and ran it through Denoise 3 which is a powerful noise reduction program. I used the deblur feature which is designed to be a little like the CSI guys use to deconvolute the data to pull out some detail. After looking at it is clear that the image on the left is slightly better. Of course this test is not that meaningful since it begins with a compressed jpeg so that is the starting point. The test just help further accentuate the differences.

Below the result -- hopefully it won't lose much after I resaved/compressed it for the web. Remember, this is the original put through Denoise without a sharpening step.


Albert J Valentino
Nikonian Moderator Emeritus

Vantage Point Images
Mastery of Composition is the Key to Great Photography

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 04-Sep-09 09:48 PM
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#39. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 38
Fri 04-Sep-09 10:09 PM by MstrBones

AW
          

Albert,

Sorry, I did not make it clear and in fact, I reposted the images, because I was over the size limit.

The one on the right is the resized to D200 dimensions D70s image. I did not tweak these much, I just tried to get the colors close and make sure both were showing RAW, unsharpened images.

""

  

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Valentino Gold Member Awarded for high level skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 04th Dec 2004Fri 04-Sep-09 09:56 PM
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#40. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 39


US
          

One of the first things I noticed when I got my D200 was the out of camera picture was not as sharp or contrasty as the D70. I was not the only one that felt that way. The D300 is between the two. Of course all it meant with the D200 is that one must work the RAW as it was not a point and shoot camera so it was no problem. It set apart those that were better at PP from those that weren't. Or at least forced people like me to learn.

Albert J Valentino
Nikonian Moderator Emeritus

Vantage Point Images
Mastery of Composition is the Key to Great Photography

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Fri 04-Sep-09 09:10 PM
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#37. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 34


Livermore, CA, US
          

Good point David. 2 cameras that were known (by me anyway) to produce images detailed far beyond what you'd think you'd get, due to a weak AA filter, were the D2h and the Canon 5D.

I've considered doing the maxmax hotrod mod to my D300. It would be really interesting to learn what 12MP is really capable of, when it hasn't been blurred first. I think 99.9% of what I shoot wouldn't be adversely effected by moire patterns.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Fri 04-Sep-09 10:11 PM
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#41. "RE: Is there a FX D90 like camera in the works?"
In response to Reply # 37


AW
          

>wouldn't be adversely effected by moire patterns.

The D70 and D70s would exhibit moire from time to time, though I never saw it in a landscape shot. It appeared from time to time in shots where there were tight, repetitive patterns, like far away fence rows.

""

  

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