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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Sun 21-Oct-07 02:55 PM
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"Photography versus Digital Art"


Columbia, US
          

I wondered what other people opinions are concerning images posted on photography websites and the following suggestion.....

I think that Nikonians and other photography websites need separate areas for posting photography vice digital artwork.

The line between a digital photograph and digital artwork begins to end when actual image content is being altered. A photograph can be cropped, contrast adjusted, sharpened, etc, and it is still a photograph. Once the actual content of the image is changed, like blurring digitally removing stick or removing some unpleasant element of the image, the image has become digital artwork. Same goes for multiple images combined in photoshop.

There are some Photoshop-proficient individuals who make some wonderful digital artwork using photos they have taken, and they should have a separate area to post their work. Otherwise, some individuals, (Speaking for myself here!), may never feel our work competes with others because we're comparing our photographs with other people's digital artwork. It's simply not a fair comparison.

I saw the winning image of a photography contest in a magazine once, and that image was actually a composite of 3 different photographs. In my opinion, it was not fair to judge that image with actual photographs taken by other individuals which were minimally processed original images. The winning image should have competed in another category.

A distinction should be made between these digitally manipulated images and minimally processed photographs.

What are other people's opinions on this???

James

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 21-Oct-07 03:10 PM
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#1. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

> I think that Nikonians and other photography websites need separate areas for posting photography vice digital artwork.

I strongly disagree. The distinction between these things is often not very clear. Certainly the "journalist" that adds dead bodies to an image is over the line. But how about the artist who loads his camera with infrared film (Or uses an IR modified DSLR)?

> ... multiple images combined in photoshop.

How about multiple conversions of the same image? That's multiple images combined. How about 9 images bracketed for HDR? That's multiple images too, albeit of the same subject.

And this isn't a digital issue either. Virtually all of the techniques we use today have been in use in the chemical darkroom for decades. If you feel that it's unfair, did you feel that it was unfair that someone who had a dichoric head and could print their own color prints had an advantage? They had a lot more control over the process than you do, even if you have a cooperative custom lab who takes good directions.

I wrote a good bit on this last week: http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID38/17212.html#4

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Richmond, US
          

While you've got me ranting, here's another case.

How do you think the attached image was created? Choices:

a) digitally combined in Photoshop
b) digitally combined in a D2xs using the multiple exposure switch
c) chemically combined in an F5 using the multiple exposure switch

In this case, I happen to own a D2h, not a D2xs, and the answer is (a).

However, I am quite confident that if I'd have had a tripod instead of a monopod, I could have produced three indistinguishable final images with these methods. By your criteria, (c) qualifies as photography, while (a) does not. I'm not sure what you'd call (b), but if I had (b) hanging in a gallery I bet you'd think it was "not photography" as soon as you determined that it was shot with a digital camera. Since the process is identical between (b) and (c), I claim that (b) is "photography" and not "digital artwork." But the only real difference between these is that I own a D2h and not a D2xs, or that I chose to use the D2h instead of the F5: is the choice of equipment really the distinguishing salient point here?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 21-Oct-07 03:30 PM
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#2. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

I forgot choice (d), which is to take 5 frames with the F5 on slide film and sandwich them in a GEPE glassless slide mount. Clearly (d) must be "photography" as there is no modification of any image at all, and certainly there is no digital work so it cannot possibly be "digital artwork." Yet the result is identical to (a) through (c).

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Bangkok Paul Gold Member Charter MemberSat 27-Oct-07 04:17 AM
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#80. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Bangkok, TH
          

I apologise for being off topic maybe, but I REALLY like what you did in the photo. Simple, not overdone, extremely effective at telling a story. You've inspired me to go off and try to copy is in different setting. I doubt if I will do it as well, but I'll try. :>)

D2X -- The meaning of life.
D2X & D200 -- Having it all.
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D800E, D3, D700, D300, D2X & D200
If your not shooting Nikon your doing
it WRONG!

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TXCiclista Registered since 15th May 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 07:44 PM
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#111. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 80


Fort Worth, US
          

For me, it's simple: if you couldn't capture it with a single shutter release, it's not a photograph. Anything requiring a second release or image, etc is "art" since it didn't actually happen "at once". The image of the pitcher is the blurry line for me, since it obviously happened but required multiple shots and stacking. To me, a blurry image of the full range of the pitcher's motion would be more of a photograph while the composite is more "art" (of course, this implies that photos are not "art" which is not what I mean).

Of course, this begs the question of using multiple images to recreate something you "saw". A prime cliché: HUGE moon over New York. People often accomplish this with two shots: a close-up of the Moon followed by a cityscape to simulate what they "saw the other night". The only problem is that they may have "seen" the Moon large, but it wasn't as big as a true photo would have captured (try it sometime. The Moon does not increase in size low on the horizon. it's an optical illusion easily disproved by a photo).

I guess for me, in the end, if you have to post-process for any reason other than compensating for error (i.e. blurred image, incorrect color-balance, etc), you've moved more into the realm of "art" than "photography". And yes, this applies to creative filters, etc.

PS Perhaps "art" is not the right word and "creative photography" would be a better choice of words.

PPS It's important to point out that this is all my opinion. I certainly am not impressed by winning "photos" of a "crane in a lake" when I find out it's a composite of multiple shots with the branches clones out, but I guess I also could have "cheated" had I wished. I prefer to try and pull it off in one shot. Far more difficult and, to me, more genuine and more rewarding. Then again, if it's a Photoshop competition, it's a competely different story.

-----
This is my Nikon. There are many like it, but this one is mine!

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 21-Oct-07 05:23 PM
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#3. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


GB
          

I fully agree with you James. Here in the UK, we have a TV program called Country File. They have a photo competition every year and the winners will have their work included in the Country File calendar. The calendar will go on sale and the proceeds will go to the BBC Children In Need fund. The competition rules stated that photographs must not be digitally manipulated other than some sharpening, contrast adjustments and cropping. In fact the presenter said 'No Cheating' when he was referring to digital manipulation. To me a photograph is a photograph and a digitally created or composed image is something else. Sadly, many people no longer differentiate the two.

Coming back to your opinion that it is unfair to judge a digitally manipulated images with actual photographs, I'll have to say that if the competition allows it, then there's nothing unfair about it. I've seen digitally manipulated images in glossy magazine that looks so unreal that one wonders what the image editor was up to. I'm sure that where digitally created images are banned in a photography competition, the judges will spot them a mile away.

john

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 21-Oct-07 05:54 PM
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#4. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 3


Richmond, US
          

> I'm sure that where digitally created images are banned in a photography competition, the judges will spot them a mile away.

How would someone distinguish (a) from (b)-(d), then, since clearly at least two and probably three of them are "cheating?"

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 21-Oct-07 06:35 PM
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#5. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 4


GB
          

Brian, You are right in pointing out that a multiple-exposure work from photoshop can be indistinguishable from a multiple exposure shot from a camera. A competition organiser may well ban multiple exposures. However, where do you draw the line? What about sky replacements? To be honest with you, everything is digital these days that even some of the slides that I see at my photographic club obviously started live as a digital image. The real slide shooter may well cry foul play.

john

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 21-Oct-07 06:45 PM
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#6. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 5


Richmond, US
          

But it's not just multiple exposures... what about color saturation? How can one distinguish between a slide shot with Velvia, a negative shot with Portra and printed with boosted filtration, a digital capture with a red intensifier, a photoshop saturation boost, or a polarizer? Or some freakish but entirely truthful lighting conditions? Or even a combination? Even if one can tell, what is the point?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Sun 21-Oct-07 07:19 PM
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#7. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 6


Columbia, US
          

BLW,

I'm not talking about manipulating colors as much as I'm talking about adding a baseball in the air in a shot that originally only had a boy and a mitt. What I'm talking about is changing the actual content of the image, meaning adding or subtracting an actual element of the image. This, to me, is when it is no longer a photograph, but a digital manipulation, or digital art, or whatever term there is to distinguish it from a photograph that came out of a camera.

I know there is a fine line sometimes, but in obvious cases it would be nice to have separate places to post such images.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Sun 21-Oct-07 10:30 PM
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#8. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 7


Paris, FR
          

Why call it digital ? I could do those in my wet darkroom... I even had some art courses on that precise subject when Tri-X was the usual media !

The usual answer is that, today, anybody can do it with a computer, a software and a file...

My grand mother used to take pictures with a 4"X5" "sport" camera long before WW I...In Cambodgia in less then good conditions... At the end of her life, she used to say (seeing me with a camera) "Today, anybody, can take a picture"

There is an ever going confusion about the media and the end.

Photojournalism is about getting a documentary picture (till HCB starting playing to be a reporter ). Industry, science, as sport and marriages are related as being documents too... Up to a point!

Most of the other are spirited with some "art", simply because the subject has already been shot, described, painted, written, thousand of times...

Is it really important to know that such picture is a result of a sandwiched transparency or from a plug-in in such software ? Or the young couple is being paid for this romantic shot, or again that such other landscape shot has been planned for six month ? That this prized print is one among 35 others on the negatives almost all identical but for the eye of the author?
Is the making of a picture so important or the impression that it conveys to onlookers ?

I grew up in a time when we had to file a bit our negative tray in the enlarger to show that the print was the original negative framing and not a crop of some sort (in the meantime many were too lazy to file the tray and used the firsts flow pens to achieve the same thin black frame )... Today everybody "crops" with a zoom

Those are just techniques, tools, and not the objective... the famed "keeper"

When those manipulated pictures are bad, everyone sees it. When they are good.. Well, they are good and should be seen as good pictures...

Faking, for the purpose of cheating somebody is reprehensible, of course, but usually none of those photographers who uses darkroom techniques are in the "faking" part, it's just a crafted picture vs an "out of the box" one...

My two cents...
Jacques

"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
My Gallery...

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 22-Oct-07 01:05 AM
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#10. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 7


Richmond, US
          

I submit that many cases are a LOT less than obvious.

From your original post:

> blurring digitally

How is this different than changing from an f/5.6 lens to an f/1.4 lens? Or for that matter, opening up the aperture from f/11 to f/2.8? Or in another sort of case, if I apply Gaussian Blur to the background elements to improve the choppy bokeh of a mirror lens, how is this ethically different from hiking back to the car and returning with a traditional refractive lens that has better bokeh?

> removing stick

How is this ethically different than simply picking up the stick before taking the photo? You get the same image in the end.

> removing some unpleasant element of the image

Suppose the unpleasant element is a dust spot on the sensor? Clearly that would still be "photography," or wouldn't it?

In the image above, I "cheated" (I resent that term) by cloning out a foot and half an ankle at the very far left of the image. It was distracting, and contributed nothing to the image. By your rules, this is "digital art" and "not photography." But how is it ethically different than simply cropping it a bit further? I realize that the result is technically a different result in this case, but from a strength of image perspective, how is the technique different?

> Same goes for multiple images combined in photoshop.

I violated this rule at the outset. But tell me how this is functionally or ethically any different than the other methods of producing the same result as I described in my other post above? The sense I have is that combining the images with Photoshop is not OK, but something "pure" like doing it with a camera is.

At the end, I get the sense that there is a feeling of unfairness because some folks "can" do this and others "cannot." Why is this different than some folks can take incredibly sharp images because they own the 500/f4 AFS, while others of us have to get along with a 70-300 ED with a TC? Or that someone can't replicate that lovely portrait bokeh because they have a D40, can't see well enough to manually focus, and can't get the 85/f1.4 to autofocus?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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ehparis Registered since 25th May 2006Tue 23-Oct-07 01:09 PM
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#26. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 10


US
          

I'm with Brian. Whether a photo is "processed" in a wet darkroom or with digital post "manipulation" is difficult to discern. Drawing a line between those which have been "manipulated" and those which have been "slightly modified" (whatever that means) is difficult in either instance.

Jerry

"If your pictures aren't good enough,
you're not close enough." -Robert Capa

  

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Levram Registered since 06th Dec 2005Mon 22-Oct-07 12:56 AM
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#9. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


New York, US
          

I agree that it is pointless to try to define what is and isn’t “photography.” The only people who are ethically required to not add or subtract subject matter from their images are photojournalists. They are reporting on exactly what happened, not what might have been.

As a photographer, I am trying to create an image that evokes the same emotional response that I had when I clicked the shutter. I don’t shoot a lot of sunsets, but when I do I find that the digital negative typically looses some of the awe inspiring colours that I saw in person. That’s just a limitation of the technology when compared to the human eye. In order to get the colours back to the intensity that I witnessed, I can either boost the saturation in the camera, through the processing of my RAW file or, if I shot with film, by selecting a more appropriate film stock and processing it differently.

The same applies to the removal of objects from photos. What if there’s a piece of garbage that blows into your frame when you’re about to shoot a streetscape. Do you A) wait and hope that the wind blows it away, B) remove the piece of garbage yourself, or C) Photoshop the garbage out later? Does one of these choices define “photography” and another “digital art?”

I can’t tell you how many patient hours, yes hours, I’ve spent doing Choice A when it comes to people. I try to avoid having anyone in my photos if at all possible.

When I’m shooting a scene I have a choice to make: A) Be patient and have cat-like reflexes to shoot when the frame is clean (I got a shot of the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia this way after ten minutes of waiting with the viewfinder to my eye. I had less than a second to click the shutter when miraculously an opening appeared), or C) Photoshop some people out later. Choice B doesn’t really work as most people don’t like to be pushed out of the way.

Why choose Photoshop when I could wait for people to get out of the way? Mainly it’s an efficiency trade-off. As much as I’d like to, I don’t have all day to wait around to shoot something. The light is changing, I have a tonne of other things to shoot and/or my boyfriend has already been amazingly patient waiting for me for the past ten minutes and it’s time to move on.

I will always remember the Ansel Adams exhibit I saw where the very first print I walked up to had an eye-opening caption next to it. The photo was taken from the rim of a canyon looking down into it. The caption mentioned that Adams did not like a small dirt road that wound its way into the canyon that appeared in his frame, so he removed it using darkroom techniques. There was even another smaller version of the photo displayed that showed how it originally appeared. Indeed, the road had been removed.

I can only hope that one day I will be as superior a digital artist as Mr. Adams.

Scott
New York City
deserted locations / decorated so silent
Gallery

Scott
New York City
deserted locations / decorated so silent
Gallery
___________________________________________________
Nikon D70s
18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom Nikkor @ XXmm
f/X.X, X sec, XXX ISO,

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 22-Oct-07 10:31 AM
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#11. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 9


Columbia, US
          

I still believe that once you remove something that was in the original photograph, it's something more than a photograph. The example of a photojournalist applies: If the photojournalist edits an image, the image is no longer 'true'. The same goes for any photograph.

I just don't think an image with no content altered is the same as one with altered content.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 22-Oct-07 12:29 PM
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#12. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 11


Richmond, US
          

So Ansel Adams is what? Clearly not a photographer. An "artist?"

How can you draw the line with any criteria that aren't pretty much arbitrary?

_____
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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 22-Oct-07 02:39 PM
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#13. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 12


Columbia, US
          

He's a photographer that uses his photographs to create art if the content of his photgraphs was actually changed.

Did he add or delete elements of his photographs or did he change contrast and other parameters? He was against pictorialism for a period. He formed a group in the 30's which was a movement based on loyalty to straight photography, (This according to Wikipedia), which makes it sound as if he had feelings leaning towards my own.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 22-Oct-07 03:33 PM
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#16. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 13


Richmond, US
          

> Did he add or delete elements of his photographs or did he change contrast and other parameters?

See the comment (not by me) above: yes, he occasionally deleted elements from the photographs. Obviously he changed other parameters extensively as well.

You still haven't answered what the ethical difference between physically changing the scene and doing so logically in the darkroom or computer might be. There are many cases in which it is extremely difficult to judge a line between these things. I cloned out some feet in the image above. How is this ethically different from cropping them out, or from changing my viewpoint by a two feet to not include them - the resulting image is the same, to all intents and purposes.

And I'm not discussing forensics or journalism here, either. I think we all agree on those domains.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Adam Basic MemberMon 22-Oct-07 02:44 PM
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#14. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


n/a, GB
          

I really have to disagree quite strongly.

Before the digital age many choices made by the photographer were less obvious. Using a particular film was an artistic choice as was/is the choice of lens or focal length. Processing the film was an artistic choice, you could do it vanilla, cross process or other permutations. In the dark room you could dodge and burn, create masks, alter perspective, unsharp mask and create montages to name but a few. What type of paper should I print on? Colour or B&W? All artistic choices.

All of these things might be considered fairly radical and complex intervention in the digital world. But, as it is the final image that counts what does it matter?

Unless you are a forensic or journalistic photographer where manipulation is ethically or legally barred then, depending on the experience or desire of the photographer, anything goes.

Personally I think we should celebrate photography in all its forms rather than bleating about it being impure or unfair. Photography in all it's history has never been "pure".

Perhaps everyone should be supplied with a camera that only shoots with a 50mm lens at iso100 and sunny 16, with processing carried out by government sanctioned laboratories. Trouble is what do we do about people who have more natural ability with a camera than others? Heavens above! They might create art! That isn't fair either, better take cameras off everybody... See where I'm going with this?

.
A D A M



Otium sine pictura mors est.

visit my (non-photography) website.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 22-Oct-07 02:49 PM
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#15. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 14


Columbia, US
          

Here's a link to Group f/64, of which Ansel Adams was a member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_f/64


Their philosophy is the point I'm trying to get across. Does anyone argue Ansel wasn't one of the greats? Hopefully reading Group f/64's philosophy will help express what I'm trying to say, but obiously not saying correctly.

I would be considered an amature photographer, and I clearly have a lot to learn about photography when it comes to the camera, lenses, and accessories like filters. This is one aspect of the modern art of photography.

A new aspect is computer or digital manipulation of images. Software today allows much more editing of an image than did the dark room of days past. An argument could be made that software today allows the manipulation of a photograph to such an extent that it becomes a type of digital painting. It is changes to a photograph that cross into this realm of digital painting that I'm talking about.


Adam said: "Perhaps everyone should be supplied with a camera that only shoots with a 50mm lens at iso100 and sunny 16, with processing carried out by government sanctioned laboratories."

This is taking it to an extreme that I haven't even come close to suggesting. I'm hoping what I've written above will clarify what I'm saying, even though it makes no difference here.

Going back to an original example: If someone takes a photograph of an empty pond, then adds a duck to the final image in photoshop, is the resulting image a true photograph or something else?





J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 22-Oct-07 03:59 PM
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#18. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 15


Richmond, US
          

> If someone takes a photograph of an empty pond, then adds a duck to the final image in photoshop, is the resulting image a true photograph or something else?

Commercially, I don't think it matters. Even if you don't do it, you're competing with others who do, or at least might.

Consider the domain of wedding portraiture. It's a very common practice to, uhm, retouch such photos. Fixing flyaway hair, removing or at least de-emphasizing moles, reversing the aging process, even wrinkle removal. Clearly this is "not photography." But if you are a wedding photographer or a portraitist, you are definitely competing with others who offer such services, whether they constitute "photography" or not.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Mon 22-Oct-07 04:48 PM
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#20. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 15


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks for that link; it does help to clarify things.

I think the reason you've ruffled a few feathers with your original post is that you seem to be equating digital capture with manipulation, and traditional film with what Group f/64 call "straight photography". The Group themselves make no such distinction, and in my opinion either type of capture is just as open to manipulation and what has earlier been called "cheating" by some. Personally, I think the only thing that is cheating is misrepresenting an altered image as an unaltered one, but again this could apply equally to film or digital.

Perhaps if you could suggest some usable criteria which distinguish between the two types of imaging that you are talking about, we might be able to move forward and even come to some kind of consensus.

Thanks!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Check out the Nikonians Team pages

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 22-Oct-07 05:23 PM
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#21. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 20


Columbia, US
          

Brian,

I agree that misrepresenting an altered image as an unaltered one would be cheating, and I guess that's my point.

There are times when I've looked at other photography websites and have seen images which were clearly manipulated in photoshop, but there was no distinction made in the details. Simple aperature, f-stop and focal length were given, when I know that work was done in photoshop which produced results which could NOT have been achieved otherwise. Without trying to do so, it was almost implied that the image was the result of certain camera settings and the additional work in Photoshop was ignored.

I understand that this isn't really a big deal in the whole scheme of things, and that both photographs straight out of a camera, and photographs with heavy editing in Photoshop (Making objects defy gravity, adding human eyes to pumpkin, etc.) are valid works of art,
I would just like to see a distinction made so that individuals who are trying to improve their straight photography technique, NOT their photoshopping technique, aren't aspriring to reach a goal that is simply unreachable without the extensive use of Photoshop. (How's that for a run-on sentence?!)

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Pursuit Gold Member Nikonian since 04th Jan 2003Mon 22-Oct-07 03:43 PM
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#17. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Kihei, US
          

>
>I think that Nikonians and other photography websites need
>separate areas for posting photography vice digital artwork.
>
>There are some Photoshop-proficient individuals who make
>some wonderful digital artwork using photos they have taken,
>and they should have a separate area to post their work.
>Otherwise, some individuals, (Speaking for myself here!),
>may never feel our work competes with others because we're
>comparing our photographs with other people's digital
>artwork. It's simply not a fair comparison.
>

I think you have this backward. Post processing is as much an aspect of digital photography as darkroom processing is in film photography. Some people get creative in the darkroom and some don't. But they are photographic processes either way.

In the digital age, Photoshop is just part of imaging process. I never chose to become proficient in darkroom processes, so my prints didn't take advantage of dodges, and burns, and multiple exposures, etc. And that did mean my images didn't compare, in some cases, to those that did. But overall I would say it was my basic image that wasn't competing more than my lack of darkroom processing.

Rather than suggest "a separate area to post their (digital) work" I think it would be more appropriate to suggest a forum of "unedited" images for those that choose not to utilize the digital darkroom.

Jim Kelly
More wag, less bark.

Jim Kelly
Seasonally 808

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 22-Oct-07 04:29 PM
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#19. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 17


Columbia, US
          

Pursuit and BLW,

I agree. A forum for unedited images, or images in which no content was actually altered would be great.

Apparently it matters to others as well, because after reading the rules for numerous photography contest, I've found that many contests stipulate that image content can't be changed for the entry to be considered.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberTue 23-Oct-07 12:29 AM
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#22. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

I think that the acceptable level of manipulation is dependent on the representation that is being made with the photo.

If the image an x-ray of someone's lung then very little manipulation would be acceptable (maybe sharpening and contrast).

If the picture is a PJ type picture documenting an event, then a small amount of manipulation might be acceptable as long as it doesn't change the actual story.

Then, there are photos whose only intent is to make an imapct to the eye of the viewer or tell an arbitrary story. I think any level of manipulation is acceptable here.

I can't count the number of times I have moved the bouquet in the bouquet toss to a better spot on the photo than where I actually captured it. Heck I have even clipped it from another picture and added it to the bouquet toss when I failed to get the bouquet in the picture, but I always put it in the right place for the person who actually caught it, so it doesn't change the story that is being told.

I also move heads and eyes from one group shot to another to fix blinkers. That doesn't change the story either.

Russ
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberTue 23-Oct-07 12:47 AM
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#23. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 22


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

See if you can tell that I moved the garter in this recent shot (image #9689)
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/gallery/3578566#203214224

On the other hand, here is an example of a shot I did not manipulate after it was out of the camera (image #1585):
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/gallery/2788456#148659467. I was spinning the camera to make light trails in the background and another photographer's flash went off just as I took the picture. Is this shot a photograph or art?

Russ
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Georgebaby Basic MemberWed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Los Angeles, US
          

Is this a photograph?

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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waterkey Registered since 05th Dec 2004Tue 23-Oct-07 02:39 AM
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#24. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

James,
I also agree completely with you.
A photograph captures a moment in time.
These digital manipulations are more like collages.

Jim
FM/FM2n

  

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brupal Registered since 27th Dec 2005Tue 23-Oct-07 12:35 PM
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#25. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Saint Paul, US
          

Interesting thread we have here. Interesting to me because in some circles, photography is still not considered art!

My opinion is that the final image is all that matters. How you create it is secondary. Of course this doesn't apply to photojournalism, scientific, forensic and a few other areas where ethical considerations are involved. Also, if you are in a competition where you are being judged OBJECTIVELY on your ability to execute certain techniques, that's fine too. You should know the rules of the competition.

When the issue is art, creativity, emotions and other subjective responses, should it matter? If it is your vision and you are able to express it, then that should be all that matters. Some people choose to create images that reflect what they see, while others choose to create images that reflect what they would like to see. BTW, anyone that does food photography knows that on many occasions, to get a good image of what you "see", many creative tricks are involved. Thats OK. It's all good.

As a jazz musician I've had to deal with a similar argument for so many years. It seems that we get caught up in how art is created. Whether it was created using the correct technique. This argument is, IMHO, purely academic. Execpt for others in the field (you fill in the blank), viewers of the art or listeners of the music don't care how the end product was created.

Good thread!

Bruce

"An amateur practices until he get's it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong..."

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Bruce

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Tue 23-Oct-07 01:50 PM
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#27. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 25


Columbia, US
          

Bruce,

I agree with you to a point.

You said "My opinion is that the final image is all that matters. How you create it is secondary. Of course this doesn't apply to photojournalism, scientific, forensic and a few other areas where ethical considerations are involved."

This is true when you are looking at the image and making up your own mind as to the quality of the 'art'. The final image is art to me, whether it is a composite of an actual photograph and something added in photoshop, or whether it's a photograph straight out of the camera which only has it's contrast adjusted.

I have no problem calling both examples art.

The problem I have is this: When a gallery is called a photography gallery, it should contain photographs. If some of those photographs are composites of a photograph and something that wasn't created with a camera (drawing in a word in Photoshop or drawing a nose on a potato in Photoshop), then it is not a photography gallery, it is an art gallery.

I was under the assumption that the Nikonians Gallery was a gallery of photographs, but I realize I have been mistaken. The Nikonians Gallery is an 'art gallery' which contains some photographs and also contains some other types of art of which at least one component of the final image is a photograph.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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brupal Registered since 27th Dec 2005Tue 23-Oct-07 02:18 PM
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#28. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 27


Saint Paul, US
          

James,

The way I see it is that when we impose limits on ourselves with strict labels, we also limit the possibilities of our work.

In the era we live in, there are so many resources at our disposal, we would be foolish not to take advantage of these resources.

Really, it comes down to the definition of art. This is a debate that has been raging long before my 50+ years on this planet and it will continue to rage on. It allows for wonderful debates, but will probably never and maybe should never have a resolution.

Bruce

"An amateur practices until he get's it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong..."

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Bruce

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Tue 23-Oct-07 02:28 PM
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#29. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 28


Columbia, US
          

Bruce, I agree, and it really is just a matter of symantics. Regardless of the methods, the final product is art. I simply think it should be called art, and not a photograph if it isn't just a photograph.

This is the only other way I can think to put this:

Take a painting by Monet. If he used paint and a canvas, the end result is a painting that is art. By the strict definition it is a painting.

If Monet had a sheet of smiley face stickers, and he put paint on a canvas, and then added a smiley face sticker the end result is a painting with a sticker on it. It is still art, but it is not just a painting. It is a combination of a painting and a sticker. It should be in an art gallery, but it would be out of place in a gallery that was showcasing only paintings in the strictest sense of the word. Does that make sense?

From dictionary.com, a photograph is defined as an image, especially a positive print, recorded by a camera and reproduced on a photosensitive surface. (I realize that in the digital age the definition has changed, but it still applies to a degree.) When one adds a smiley face sticker to a digital photograph or a printed photograph it is no longer just a photograph. It is a composite of two separate entities. It is a new art form. I can't put it any other way!

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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brupal Registered since 27th Dec 2005Tue 23-Oct-07 02:37 PM
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#31. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 29


Saint Paul, US
          

James,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but by defining something, in this case art, we have imposed limits on what we have defined. To me, this seems to contradict the spirit that motivates artists, musicians, etc.

BTW, I happen to love the work of Monet, but there are those that reject his work as being art. I disagree, but they're out there!

Have you heard of a person being referred to as a Monet? They look good from a distance, but get closer... Ouch! <g>

Bruce

"An amateur practices until he get's it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong..."

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Bruce

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Tue 23-Oct-07 02:32 PM
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#30. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 27


Columbia, US
          

In the end it doesn't really matter. We should be out there enjoying our cameras and/or Photoshop to create new works of art!

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

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ARCHK Registered since 11th Nov 2004Wed 24-Oct-07 12:49 AM
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#35. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Baguio City, PH
          

James,

In painting and drawing, there are differnt schools - realism, impressionism, cubism, etc. Anyone serious about art appreciation does not argue that one is inherently better than another, although a person may have a personal preference. In photography, it is the same. There is nothing inherently wrong with any type of image manipulation, and there is nothing wrong with establishing categories of image types, and judging images with respect to these categories. But in general, there never is any benefit in the arbitrary limitation of creativity.

Regards,

Alan in the Philippines

http://www.arcasia.multiply.com

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Wed 24-Oct-07 10:24 AM
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#36. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 35


GB
          

This topic is getting more and more interesting. I've done a search on 3 famous dictionary for the word Photograph or Photography and here are the results:

Oxford Dixtionary
"Phototgraph - a picture made with a camera, in which an image is focused on to film and then made visible and permanent by chemical treatment."

Cambridge
Photograph - a picture produced using a camera

Merriam Webster
Photography - the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (as film or a CCD chip)

So there you go. A photograph is the product of the process in which an images is captured on a light-sensitive surface. Judging by the majority of opinions here, should we now re-define the meaning of photography/photograph? I propose that photography should mean "a process of first capturing an image on a CCD/CMOS and subsequently processing the file in Photoshop (or similar software)" You may have different ideas



john

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 10:53 AM
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#38. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 36


Columbia, US
          

JKU wrote:

"I propose that photography should mean "a process of first capturing an image on a CCD/CMOS and subsequently processing the file in Photoshop (or similar software)" You may have different ideas"

I agree with this if the actual content of the image hasn't changed dramatically, but what does that mean?

If someone takes a photograph, puts it in photoshop and then draws, free-hand, additional objects on the image, I would hesitate to call it just a photograph. It is something more than that, and the reality is, it takes away from the effort put into the image simply labeling it a photograph.

If someone spends 10 minutes taking a photograph of a table, but spends 10 hours digitally painting on the image in photoshop, there is more going on to create the final image than just 'photography'. This is a new style of art. A hybrid of digital painting/drawing and photography. It warrants it's own name for it's unique style.



J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Wed 24-Oct-07 11:37 AM
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#39. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 38


GB
          

James,

The point that I was trying to make was that a photograph is literally an image captured by a camera and that's it. If it is now accepted that a photograph is something else, i.e. not necessarily an image captured solely by a camera, perhaps we should consider re-defining the word 'photography'. After reading the comments in this post, I now get the impression that a photograph is more than an image captured in a camera. More like, an image that was initially captured in a camera it and may or may not be subsequently manipulated in PS

john

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 12:20 PM
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#40. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 39


Columbia, US
          

John,

I see where you are coming from. I just think an entirely new word would be more apt since it is a fairly new technology and technique. 'Photography' is already a defined word, and there's room for a new term within the boundaries of 'photography'. I think a photograph is still an image captured in a camera. Adding stuff to it with a computer or paint brush makes it a different 'animal'.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Wed 24-Oct-07 12:33 PM
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#41. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 40


GB
          

How about digigraphy?

john

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 12:36 PM
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#42. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 41


Columbia, US
          

Excellent!

Digagraphy?

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 10:43 AM
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#37. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 35


Columbia, US
          

Thanks Alan, and I agree with everything you said.

I haven't said, once, that there is anything wrong with manipulating photographs in Photoshop to any degree. It's all art, and there is good and bad art, defined by ones own taste.

I'm just in the camp that would like to see categories of image types simply to differentiate what it took to make the final image or, perhaps, the thought process behind the image just as there are different labels for styles of painting.

Just as there are different styles of poetry (Haiku, sonnet, palindrom, free vers, etc.), different styles of story writing (Short story, novel, psalm, etc), and different styles of painting, there should be differentiation between a photograph which hasn't had content changed, and a photograph that has been edited with Photoshop, or edited with a paint brush after it's been printed, and changed in such a way that no other method could have created the same end result.

I think we're already on our way to establishing these categories within the boundary that is 'photography', but distinct, accepted names for different editing styles simply haven't been created yet because digital editing among the masses is relatively new.

If one is to study photography a decade from now, undoubtedly there will be named styles of editing which will steer individuals towards a specialized niche within the discipline of photography. It's all part of photography, but the final image may or may not be simply a photograph.

Yet another example:

If someone takes a photograph of a field and prints out the photograph on canvas, then takes a paint brush and paints various objects on the field like a kite or a cow or a birthday party, what is the final result? Certainly it could be called art. However, it's not a photograph. It's not a painting. It's a hybrid of both, and a category for this style of art would be nice. I see this as no different than heavy editing in Photoshop where image content has been drastically changed. The end result is not just a photograph and not simply digital painting. It's a hybrid, and it needs a name!

I'd like to thank everyone for their replies to this post. I think it is an interesting topic, and one which will need further discussion in the future as photography in the digital age continues to mature and evolve.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

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flipsix3 Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Feb 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 12:53 PM
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#43. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 37


Leicester, GB
          


James, it's certainly an interesting debate, and I would never argue against the fact that a 'manipulated' image should not be presented as anything other than that. Certainly when I do anything with a 'raw' shot, and then present it, I go to great lengths to ensure that those methods are mentioned.

Having said that I'd raise a 'challenge' to what you've mentioned in a couple of your recent comments namely:

I just think an entirely new word would be more apt since it is a fairly new technology and technique. 'Photography' is already a defined word... ...adding stuff to it with a computer or paint brush makes it a different 'animal'.

You're right about adding things by another medium but, once again, where does one draw the line? A photographer could quite happily shoot a picture of someone walking through a forest, and could also photograph a fallen leaf on, let's say, a lightbox - in a darkroom (or now, in Photoshop) that leaf could be 'sumperimposed' onto the picture to give the impression that it fell as the shot was being taken. To my mind all of those actions and techniques still fall within the realms of photography - but if someone painted the leaf on with paint and brush then I'd feel differently. However I would assume that you would see both as 'non-photographic'

The same, in effect, could be said of...

If someone takes a photograph of a field and prints out the photograph on canvas, then takes a paint brush and paints various objects on the field like a kite or a cow or a birthday party, what is the final result?

Again I would argue that if this was achieved by multiple exposures, or by other methods involving multiple photographs, then this is still photography - albeit that the line between that, and painting the kite, is again a fine one.

In my own mind, if the components have all been photographed, and no attempt is made to hide the work undertaken to achieve the end result, then it's photography. Like many other things (art? music? love?), the concept of 'Photography' is far from a single clearly-defined word and is open to endless personal interpretation.

In the end everyone will have their own opinion. If we did coin a new phrase, let's say a 'Digitographer', where would you draw the line? I guarantee that one person would argue that sharpening would take you into that category, another would say not - then, if I shot something with my D200, and someone else used the Fuji S5 (with it's improved dynamic range) then I would have to become a 'Digitographer' to achieve the same print. Would we then have to come up with new sub-categories?

Great debate, but I'm firmly in the camp that takes the 'wider' view

============================


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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 01:26 PM
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#44. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 43


Columbia, US
          

flipsix,

I agree that if the final image is simply a composite of multiple photographs, the work is all in the realm of photography whether it was created in a dark room or using Photoshop.

The images I'm mostly talking about are where a photograph was taken, and then extra elements were added to the image which were not originally from another photograph. I'm talking about objects/elements which were drawn/painted in to the final image. 'That' final image is something more than, or different from a simple photograph, and another name would be appropriate.

Perhaps the distinction could be made based on the amount of time one discipline was used on the final image. If taking and adjusting the photograph took longer than painting in the flower digitally, it's more photography. If taking the photograph took 5 minutes, and painstaking hours were spent painting additional elements onto the image, then it's more digital painting.

The end result is still a hybrid of photography and painting, and warrants a name other than photography which is why I mentioned 'digital art'. It's really two art forms combined: Photography and painting/drawing. Paintography? Photopainting?

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 01:41 PM
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#45. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 44


Columbia, US
          

In my first post I mentioned removing a stick from an image in photoshop. I still believe the final image is more than just a photograph if the meaning of photograph is capturing a 'true' moment in time, but it is still photography. I understand that definitions vary, and when one says 'photograph' it may not be a true capture of a particular moment in time.

It's when a non-photographic element is added to an photograph that the line is crossed from photography to some other art form. It's still art, and a photograph is one element, but the word 'photograph' does not define the whole work.

In summary:

If a photograph is taken and elements are subtracted or added which were originally photographic elements from the original photograph or additional photographs, all of the work involved falls within the realm of 'photography'. This applies whether the photographic elements were added or subtracted or otherwise edited in a dark room or with software.

If a photograph is taken and additional elements are added to the image which were not originally photographic elements, meaning the elements were drawn or painted in, then the work is split between more than one discipline. The work is photography plus whatever discipline was used to add the elements. The final image is not just a photograph, but a digital composite of more than one art form, or a printed composite of more than one art form.

The above summaries do not apply if someone simply cuts out someone's head from a yearbook and glues it to a photograph of another student. This final image was made using photography originally (The capture of the original images), but the creation of the new 'work' was done simply using collage techniques. The person who cut out the head did not use photographic skills to create the final image, therefore the work falls into some category other than photography in regards to the work done by the second person.

Man, this is getting complicated!

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Wed 24-Oct-07 10:55 PM
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#46. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 45


Los Angeles, US
          

<Man, this is getting complicated!>

Keep it up I'm enjoying it. }>

It is a LOT more labor intensive to create a realistic manipulation then it is to take a good photograph. Most manipulators want credit for their work, the most important exception being those who seek to manipulate people.

Posting a 16 hr manipulation in Nikonians is a wasted effort, it will be far more appreciated at www.Renderosity.com

Photoshop for Right-Brainers by Al Ward is a great place to start. There's a LOT more to be done then pushing sliders and using a layer mask ot two.

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Wed 24-Oct-07 11:05 PM
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#47. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 46


Los Angeles, US
          

PS: In the dark room ages it was called re-touching. Today so many photographers digitally re-touch that the word manipulation has come to replace it.

1. Straight from camera/negitive
2. Re-touched
3. Manipulated.

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Brian Harris Registered since 30th Jan 2006Fri 26-Oct-07 02:48 PM
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#79. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 37


Akron, US
          

If someone takes a photograph of a field and prints out the photograph on canvas, then takes a paint brush and paints various objects on the field like a kite or a cow or a birthday party, what is the final result?

I believe galleries call those Mixed Medium.

So digital art is mixed medium (or mixed content). That would be an honest term.

Some people are much more comfortable with post-modern discussions of reality than others. I see this in professional education literature and I see it here too. Photography debates like this center around "real or not" which is an extension of this post-modern idea.

There is no right, wrong, better, or worse implied in my comment. Only an observation.

- - - - - - -
Brian Harris

__________________
Cheers!
Brian


The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. -A.E

  

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cameraman1226 Registered since 09th Mar 2007Wed 24-Oct-07 11:46 PM
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#48. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

This is a very interesting thread and although I do not have the time to read the entire thing I can see where it is going, (or has been). Let me just say right off, I have nothing against using Photoshop on images, as it pertains to Photography or artwork or anything in between.

It seems to me that the people who are most opposed to an image being "photoshoped" are the ones that do not know how to use such a tool. After all that is what Photoshop is. Although I am not an authority on the subject, I would guess that Ansel Adams, spent just as much time in the dark room as he did waiting for perfect light. So is his work photography or art work? Why can't it be both.

Simply put, Photoshop is todays dark room on steroids and can become quite the Hulk in the right hands.

There was a man in my camera club who said that any photograph manipulated in photoshop was not really photography. Later that night he say an example of how you can take an image, remove some wrinkels, add some catchlight in the eye and sell a wedding portrait for $700. I guess you could say he began to see the light.

I was watching a training video on Photoshop for Photographers by Chris Orwig and he made a statement that I think makes all of this moot and that is this:

A good photograph is defined by how it impacts a person, not how it was created.


So when anyone ever approaches me with "But you changed the image in PS" argument, I recite that statement.

Now that I am fired up, I will read some more of this thread and hope that I have not duplicated another response.

Happy shooting,
Houston

"I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Thu 25-Oct-07 12:34 AM
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#49. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Livermore, CA, US
          

There is certainly a line between what constitutes a photo and what constitutes what you'd call digital art. The problem with this distinction is that everyone will draw that line in a different place.

To claim the f/64 group's goal of "straight photography" is in line with your definition is to simply apply your definition to their words, and to take their work out of context. Photography before those days actually tried to imitate impressionist painting using out-of-focus techniques. f/64 was revolutionary in the idea that a photo should be sharp, and would look like what the eye actually sees. Not what the eye would have seen had it been looking through the lens at that moment.

The Alameda County Fair has a fairly respected photography contest, and this year one of the categories was "manipulated/digital art." It was clear based on the winners that the judges were expecting the entrants to have created something by drawing fake-looking elements into a photo. IIRC the winner was a photo that had introduced Doom-like characters battling in a real cave photo. It was also clear that many entrants had completely misjudged the intent of the category, and had entered what appeared to be straight-forward photos of landscapes, buildings, etc. One can only guess that they felt because they had sharpened or removed a distracting element that they belonged in the manipulated category. They would have stood a better chance of a prize in the color or BW photography category.

I'm sure all of us who use the digital darkroom have a line we won't cross (and still call our work a photograph). But even attempts to define this line in this thread are necessarily arbitrary. An image taken straight out of the camera? What if a computer in the camera applied d-lighting, red eye removal, sharpening, contrast, and saturation enhancements? Does red-eye removal constitute digital manipulation if done on a computer but not if done in camera? Is it better to not retouch red eye because that's what the light was doing the instant the shutter released? If you admit that red eye removal is an acceptable level of manipulation (perhaps because it renders the photo more as our eyes see instead of as the camera sees) then is a GND filter acceptable - it helps render contrasts level to which our eyes will adjust automatically but the camera can't. If a GND filter is ok, then what if the identical effect is created by combining 2 exposures using a gradient mask? Identical but one's a photo and one isn't? You will find examples everywhere that really require any rigid definition to stretch the boundaries of credibility.

Anyway, it's an inevitable argument, but outside the realm of journalistic ethics it's too arbitrary to reach any conclusion. I'd wager that an "unmanipulated" forum wouldn't be a very popular one, except for maybe some film purists who don't scan their images anyway, and some DSLR noobies who haven't yet learned to distinguish between photography and what comes out the back (side?) of a camera.

Regarding the intent of Nikonians, it's my impression that the galleries aren't for a specific intent. The forums devoted to landscape, macro, BW, wildlife, portrait, I believe are intended for the art of photography, not photojournalism. I suggest a visit the galleries to previous photo contests' category of "Manipulated" to see how the founders categorized a manipulated image.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery
New: My website is live! www.tempered-light.com

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 12:52 PM
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#50. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 49


Columbia, US
          

All of this really depends on how literal one wants to be with the definition of a photograph.

To me a photograph is an image caputured by a camera that is a true reflection of what was seen by the photographer prior to depressing the shutter release button. A 'snapshot' of time, if you will. The less 'true' to the actual image, the less of an actual photograph it is. (Photojournalistic viewpoint I supoose.)

Apparently, to many others, a photograph is simply a canvas on which to build a final image, and regardless of what is added or subtracted from the image, the end result is still a photograph. Where I begin to disagree is when the added or subtracted element is non-photographic in nature.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 01:25 PM
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#51. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 50


Colorado Springs, US
          

I think the problem is in your statement that the image is what was "captured by a camera that is a true reflection of what was seen by the photographer prior to depressing the shutter release button". Does this mean that the image has to exactly match what the photographer saw? Identical colors? Difficult to do for obvious reasons. Does this preclude black and white as a valid form of photography? Does this preclude any darkroom work for traditional black and white work?

If think your definitions of what is photography are incredibly restrictive and not what is commonly accepted, not just in the last ten years, but throughout the entire history of photography.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 03:21 PM
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#53. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 51


Columbia, US
          

Walker,

I mean a true reflection as in content, not specific colors.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 03:28 PM
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#55. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 53


Colorado Springs, US
          

Do you really think a "true reflection of content" has ever been achieved with a camera? Not a chance. We constantly alter it via lens choice and shooting position, not to mention a whole host of other things. It's extraordinarily difficult to put a boundary around what you propose and not necessarily productive.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

Download from our library of Image Doctor podcasts here

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 03:32 PM
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#56. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 55


Columbia, US
          

There is a differenct between a photograph that has been miminally processed and one which has had an element drawn in via a paint brush or Photoshop. The distinction would be important from a learning standpoint.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Thu 25-Oct-07 02:36 PM
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#52. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 50


Livermore, CA, US
          

>To me a photograph is an image caputured by a camera that is
>a true reflection of what was seen by the photographer prior
>to depressing the shutter release button. A 'snapshot' of
>time, if you will.

Like Rick pointed out, your definition excludes all B&W photography, but these kinds of exclusions will happen when you apply a rigid rule which challenges a small 2-dimensional media to reproduce reality.

A photograph is a measurement of light hitting a light-sensitive media, but the act of "sight" involves both light, and perception. An interesting exercise often applied in beginning photography classes is to have the student photograph a landscape, then have him or her turn away and sketch what they remember shooting. Generally what gets sketched is what the student deemed important. Comparing this sketch to the actual photo reveals that our brain can easily block out distracting minor elements like power lines and road signs, but when we're removed from the original context (now looking at the photo) these elements suddenly compete for our attention, so the effect of leaving these elements in isn't to reproduce what we perceived, it's exactly the opposite.

This illustrates the 2nd most basic challenge in photography (after exposure) - to faithfully reproduce a real scene on a small, 2-dimensional media. The concept at its most basic level is so absurd that to claim realism is the goal is even more absurd. So, the challenge before the photographer is not to convey the photons present at the moment of tripping the shutter, but instead to convey the emotion that was felt that motivated tripping the shutter in the first place. If the net result draws the eye to the edge of a road sign that wasn't even noticed when the shot was conceived, then what was the point of taking the picture in the first place?

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery
New: My website is live! www.tempered-light.com

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 03:26 PM
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#54. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 52


Columbia, US
          

I feel that to make my point I'm forced to consolidate what I'm trying to say into a few sentences for clarity, but it's only confusing the point I'm trying to get across.

I just have to go back to my example in a previous post.

If someone paints a bunny with oil paints on a printed photograph, the final image is NOT just a photograph anymore.

Thats' really my only point. Some of the work I see being done with Photoshop is akin to this. Some individuals add a lot of elements to a photograph, and it transforms the image. It is no longer just a photograph, but something more. It can invoke emotion, but that doesn't help define it. Where that line is between a photograph and something more is up for debate, but I don't think it can be debated that the end result can be something more than just a photograph.

What I'm seeking is another term to describe a photograph to which extra content has been added via Photoshop and/or a paint brush, or a pencil, or whatever.

Does that help get my point across?

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 04:00 PM
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#57. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 54


Columbia, US
          

pho•to•graph –noun
1. picture produced by photography.
2.to take a photograph of.
3.to practice photography.
4.to be photographed or be suitable for being photographed in some specified way: The children photograph well.

pho•tog•ra•phy
n.
1.The art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces.
2.The art, practice, or occupation of taking and printing photographs.
3.A body of photographs.

None of the current, accepted definitions of photography include painting on a photograph to get a new image. Is this just something that has been understood, but not incorporated into the actual definition, or is this something that is just now manifesting itself from the proliferation of Photoshop among photographers?

When one paints on top of a photograph digitally or with a brush, one is moving towards the art of painting and away from photography. At the very least the image becomes a hybrid of both the talent of painting and the talent of photography, not just photography. This is the only distinction I'm trying to make, and again, I think this could be important from a learning standpoint.

If I ask a fellow photographer how a particular image was created so that I might learn how to do similar work, and the image took 8 hours of Photoshop work because some elements were completely hand-drawn, but the person tells me they simply used a camera, lens and a little contrast adjustment, they'd be lying.

If they were willing to tell me, I'd like them to explain the actual process involved in making the final image. If the image was created by using photographic equipment correctly and free-hand drawing I'd like to know so that I might strive for a realistic goal based on the limits of my talents and equipment.

Does that make sense?

Or, like the magician's code, is there some secret code evolving among Photoshop profficient individuals where the secrets of a 'fine' photograph are only known to a select few individuals? This is an evolotion that I think should be avoided, and that is what I'm attempting to get across with this thread.

It seems to me that there is the art of photography and there is the art of painting and photography combined, which is still simply called 'photography'.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 25-Oct-07 04:26 PM
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#58. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 57


Paignton, GB
          

>Or, like the magician's code, is there some secret code
>evolving among Photoshop profficient individuals where the
>secrets of a 'fine' photograph are only known to a select
>few individuals?

As has been hinted at already, I think your argument loses some of its impact because you're again equating this issue with the digital world.

Traditional retouching of negatives and prints was an acquired skill, and was/is probably understood and used well by considerably fewer people than know the "secret of photoshop".

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 04:31 PM
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#60. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 58


Columbia, US
          

Brian,

Would you classify an image that is half photograph and half hand-drawn elements as a photograph or as a digital painting or as simply digital artwork? What would that final image be classified as in your own words?

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 25-Oct-07 08:12 PM
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#68. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 60


Paignton, GB
          

I'm sorry, but I'm unable to answer that. What such an image gets called is of very little interest to me, and I would also be uninterested in whether it was created photographically, digitally or artistically

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 04:29 PM
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#59. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 57


Columbia, US
          

Another component to this is the power of Photoshop.

In the past, the number of people taking photographs who had their own dark room and who were good at dark room techniques was small compared to the actual number of photographers.

That number is changing with digital photography. The number of individuals with powerful editing software is increasing. Not only that, but Photoshop is nearly an infinitely more powerful editing tool than a dark room, so in competent hands, the results can be that much more dramatic.

The rules are changing, which is a GOOD thing for art. However, photography is now evolving into something new because of these new tools.

I don't want to limit that evolution, I just want to understand it, and I want to help those new to photography understand limitations with given equipment, which includes Photoshop. Without a program like Photoshop there are simply some things an individual won't be able to do that someone with Photoshop can.


J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 04:53 PM
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#61. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 57


Petersburg, US
          

Hames,

I think you are overthinking things and trying to0 hard to put things into different categories.

Again, do not always assume that images you may see are photoshop creations. As I previously posted, I have prints that people think that they were photoshop creations when you ask me what steps I took and I simply replied just some curves adjustments, you would assume I am lying???

I have D1H and D2H files blown up to perhaps 20x30 in prints. People will routinely remark..."it looks like a painting". It is not Photoshop that gave the image the look it has. I did not put oils on the print. It was the camera. Blowing up the small MP file of perhaps 2.7 or 4.1 makes the pixel mushy in appearance. Depending on the actual photo, the mushy pixel may very well give an artistic look to the print. Now could I get this artistic look from a D2X....nope. This is one reason I hang on to my D1H.

Do not assume that photos you see are photoshop creations. The photographer could be telling you the truth about simply doing some levels or curves adjustsments.

Now all that said, if I spent perhaps 8 hours on an image in photoshop, I for one certainly could not give you step by step directions on how I achieved the look. Do not assume people are keeping secrets from you. It may be a case that it is truly hard for them to explain. I can make analogy using photoshop to cooking chilli. WHen I cook chilli, I do not use a recipe. I cook my chilli to taste over perhaps a 12 hour period. Every hour or so I may add a pinch of this or a dash of this. If someone asked me an exact recipe, I couldn't even start to tell them. The very same thing happens when I am dealing with Photoshop. I do not use preset actions when I am creating things. I just keep on playing around until I get it right. If for some reason I get to the point of frustration, I just start from scratch. I could not give you step by step instructions on what I did.

You need to just explore photoshop on your own. You can google actions on the web that may give you a particular "look" to a photo and use it as a starting point. You can find a LOT of free photoshop actions.

I guess what I am trying to say that on the learning side of things, you just have to play around yourself. It isn't much different then taking photographs. You just have to shoot and shoot and learn from your mistakes. It is hard for anyone to spoon feed you things so you can do what they do. I may very well be a case that they can't and not a case that they want to keep secrets from you. When it comes to anything creative, sometimes the mind just takes over and one simply does not follow set steps on creating something.

Play around and come up with your own "look" whether it is the actual photography or what you do with it afterwards.

Photography is a journey. You cannot expect to learn or be taught everything overnight. In the 36 year journey I have been shooting a camera, I have learned by experimenting on my own for the most part whether it is the actual taking of a photograph, wet darkroom skills or digitally processing.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 05:07 PM
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#62. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 61


Columbia, US
          

Mel,

I'm not asking anyone to give me a breakdown of steps they used in Photoshop to create a certain image, and I understand there may be images out there that look heavily Photoshopped that my not be. However, if someone spent 8 hours in Photoshop to create an image from a photograph which took 5 minutes to capture, I'd just like to know "Hey, it took 5 minutes to photograph and 8 hours in Photoshop to creat this image." I'm not asking for anything else from another photographer. I don't want to know the exact steps they took to create the image.

Mel,

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Brian: What would you call an image that was half a photograph and half digital painting done in Photoshop? Would that image be a photograph, a digital painting or a combination of the two which you would call something else? Is it simply digital artwork?

What is happening is that the art of photography and the art of digital painting are merging.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 05:33 PM
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#63. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 62


Petersburg, US
          

>I'll ask you the same thing I asked Brian: What would you
>call an image that was half a photograph and half digital
>painting done in Photoshop?

James,

I honestly do not get wrapped up in labels or the percentage of an image is photoshop and what percentage is the original photograph. I just simply call it "art". Then again, I really could care less if a painting is done by oils or watercolors. It is how the final image that affects me that matters and not the process someone took to create it.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 05:48 PM
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#64. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 63


Columbia, US
          

Fair enough! I'm simply interested in technique.

Much like how someone who has studied art appreciation knows the difference between realism, pointillism, cubism, etc, I'm interested in knowing the differences between different photographic techniques, including Photoshop techniques. This is my reasoning behind wanting different categories, because different techniques are used to create different final results.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 06:06 PM
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#65. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 64


Petersburg, US
          

James,

This is where you have lost me throughout this thread. In your previous post, you said you do not care what knowing steps a person takes but in this post, you are interested in knowing techniques. These two opposite statements confuse me. There have been other conflicting statements you have made in this thread as well.

You have taken a lot of twist and turns in this one thread.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 06:24 PM
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#66. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 65


Columbia, US
          

Knowing individual steps taken in Photoshop is not the same thing as knowing steps were used in Photoshop to create the image. You can loose the 's' in 'photoshop techniques' in my previous post. I can learn how individual steps are done on my own.

When I say I'm interested in knowing what techniques were used to make an image, I mean to say how much was photography and how much was painting/drawing in Photoshop. Not 'what exactly was done' in Photoshop.

Using Photoshop is a technique to me. It is a component in photography.

I feel like I've been pretty consistent by giving examples. I have maintained that I think when elements are added to an image which were not originally photographic elements, in other words they are created by hand using drawing techniques, that the final image is not just a photograph. It is a combination of photography and drawing/painting.

I'm not sure where I've confused you, but that has been my point all along.

Mel,

I would imagine you and I have the same appreciation for art, but this is just a guess. I've been to many of the famous museums in different countries in Europe including France, Austria, Spain, etc. I have been deeply moved by different mediums including painting and sculpture. But, I think, where we differ is in wanting to put these various artworks into categories. I'm interested in knowing the differences between styles of sculpture and painting. I don't think that means I appreciate art less, it just means I'm interested in some of the behind the scenes information.

This is why, when I look through Nikonians-galleries, I am left wondering which images were more straight photographic techniques and which were primarily Photoshop creations. This is why, in my original post, I suggested separate galleries for the two.

I realize, after reading responses in this thread, that that is a largely unpopular belief.

I don't mean to step on any toes, and I didn't mean to be unclear. I felt I was forced to defend my position based on some replies, and I'm afraid that I may have confused the issue in writing responses which were defensive.

Sorry about that. I'm simply genuinely interested in learning more about this hobby, and I can't help but think that classifications would only serve to help me. However, if classifications would cause more harm than good, then I'll leave it at that, and I'll simply learn on my own.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Thu 25-Oct-07 07:46 PM
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#67. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 54


Livermore, CA, US
          

>If someone paints a bunny with oil paints on a printed
>photograph, the final image is NOT just a photograph
>anymore.
>
>Thats' really my only point.

For agrument's sake, your bunny might as well have been a straw man. Everyone has a line between what they'd consider photography and what's "digital art", no argument from me. Just as it's trivial to show an example that invalidates one person's rule, it's also simple to choose an example so extreme that the point appears obvious. You've had to resort to the latter. The problem, again, is where do we draw that line:

>Once the actual content of the image is changed, like blurring >digitally removing stick or removing some unpleasant element of the >image, the image has become digital artwork.

...is what you originally said, and also why you've met so much resistance to your concept.

I don't think anyone would have read the above sentence and assumed you mean spending 8 hours in photoshop to draw in half the elements in a photo. Can you point to a real-world example, an image on Nikonians, that you believe has been misrepresented in such a way?

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery
New: My website is live! www.tempered-light.com

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 09:59 PM
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#69. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 67


Columbia, US
          

Larry,

I agree with you. As I said in a previous post, not too far back. I ended up having to take a defensive position, which forced me to be specific and resort to more obvious examples of what I meant originally.

I STILL believe my original sentence, which you posted above, is valid, but I also realize that there is no way to really draw a line.

This is probably one reason the work which was traditionally done in a dark room wasn't really discussed among non-photographers. Regardless of how the final image was created it didn't matter as long as the final result pleased the customer.

I've learned from this thread. I didn't realize the extent to which photographers of the past, without the aid of programs like Photoshop, 'modified' their images to get a final result.

I now realize that photography is more than taking a camera and getting the exposure right. It's also, sometimes, about editing that original image to x-degree to get the image one wanted in the first place.

I realize there is no way to draw the line, hence my exaggerated examples, and therefore I consent the point.

Photography is whatever one wants it to be, but for me, a photograph will be what was created when the shutter release was pressed. From there it's something a little bit, or a lot more than that, depending on the individual.

I got it, and it only took a few days and about a hundred posts!

Larry, you asked "Can you point to a real-world example, an image on Nikonians, that you believe has been misrepresented in such a way?"

I don't think anyone is misrepresenting their work, but many times no data is given on how a photograph was created, be it aperature, shutter speed, photoshop work, etc. I'm also not saying people should have to put that information with every photo. I'm just curious about every photo!

Thanks, again, for everyone's input.

James

Loving my hobby and learning everyday....

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Thu 25-Oct-07 11:02 PM
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#70. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 69


Los Angeles, US
          

<This is probably one reason the work which was traditionally done in a dark room wasn't really discussed among non-photographers.>

LOL! In my mothers family Photo Engraving was only taught within the blood line. They refused to even listen to my father when he asked to be taught the trade. The Apple and Photoshop put an end to that!

My Nikonian Gallery

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brupal Registered since 27th Dec 2005Thu 25-Oct-07 11:04 PM
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#71. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 69


Saint Paul, US
          

James,

I never considered that your desire to define, label and categorize is part of your learning process. That, I think, may be why there seems to be some confusion in this thread. Creative people, in my experience, do all they can to resist being defined, labeled and categorized!

Good luck in your journey!

Bruce

"An amateur practices until he get's it right, a professional practices until he can't get it wrong..."

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

Bruce

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

www.bpalaggiphoto.com

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Thu 25-Oct-07 11:12 PM
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#72. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 71


Columbia, US
          

Bruce,

That's my problem! I compose music, I draw and I am really enjoying photography. My talent is more in music. All these are hobbies.

My line of work is more along the lines of engineering.

I'm both creative (At least I'd like to think I am), and I also lean towards the engineering side of things. It's a tough mix to balance!

When I'm browsing the galleries I'm constantly looking at F-stop, aperature and ISO settings when people post them. I'm always looking to see what lens was used when it's posted. I try to guess what settings might have been used. All of this goes a long way to help me understand the mechanics behind what is 'photogrpahy'. Once I learn those basic mechanics I can put my mind to work on the creative side of things a little more readily. When choosing settings becomes a reflex, only then can I really concentrate on the creative aspect of the scene in my mind. Until I'm proficient with my equipment I'm too worried about getting it 'right' to think about composition. I realize this is my problem.

This is why I thought separate categories or galleries would be nice. It would allow me to focus on photographs which were created using a camera a lens and someone's creative eye, rather than someone's Photoshop talents. I know I'll have to become proficient at Photoshop in the future, but I'm putting that off. For now I'm concentrating on the camera and it's associated functions/accessories, like lenses, filters and flash. Photoshop is just a little bit down the road for me until I feel I'm fairly proficient at the other aspects.

The engineer in me wants to know details, details, details about the tasks I take on. I realize the creative side of me just needs to let go and enjoy my hobbies. It's simply easier said than done.



James


J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Thu 25-Oct-07 11:26 PM
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#73. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 69


Colorado Springs, US
          


>
>I don't think anyone is misrepresenting their work, but many
>times no data is given on how a photograph was created, be
>it aperature, shutter speed, photoshop work, etc. I'm also
>not saying people should have to put that information with
>every photo. I'm just curious about every photo!
>
>Thanks, again, for everyone's input.
>

I think you'd surprised how few photos have extensive manipulations. Most of the time it's just contrast changes, cropping, some saturation adjustments and other basic changes. Many photographers feel a bit pretentious describing exactly how a photo of theirs was made, and many experienced photographers feel that including shutter speed, aperture and equipment info is relatively unimportant, but asking them is always an option. Very few people won't help with that, especially if it's accompanied by a nice compliment.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Fri 26-Oct-07 12:01 AM
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#74. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 73


Columbia, US
          

Thanks Rick.

I think the following will help people understand where I was coming from in starting this thread.

If someone was to ask you "What makes a good photographer?" what would your answer be?

If someone had asked me this question 2 weeks ago my answer would have been something to the effect of "A good photographer knows how to use his/her equipment, and knows how to setup the camera for proper exposure using shutter speed, ISO and aperture. A good photographer also has a good eye for composition."

That would have been my answer, and I would have felt it complete.

Today, however, I realize I was missing an important component. A good photographer knows the 'stuff' I mentioned above, but must also possess good post-processing skills. I never realized that this aspect of photography was as important as it is.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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dgh3 Registered since 29th Jan 2007Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Syracuse, US
          

This is a fascinating thread. I come at it from both perspectives. That is, I do "fine" art, painting, drawing, watercolors, etc., and have been fortunate to win awards and have taught life drawing. I got into digital photography more as a means to capture images that I could later turn into "real" art. But, I've discovered that some photos are so fantastic that they stand on their own. My own perspective is that it is the art that is paramount - what works, what evokes strong feelings and passion is great art, however you can do it.

But, I kind of agree with the idea that there is something special about photography that is distinct from digital art. It is the skill to capture something magical with a camera and not with a computer. It's like music, the best musicians can stand up in front of a crowd and belt out beautiful mesmerizing solos effortlessly where others toil in sound studios, with endless takes and endless mistakes, to make something that sounds the same on a CD, though the person making that "music" does not have the skill to dare attempt such work live. Photography, defined in this way, is the skill to get it right, in the camera, without assistance. Think about sports - what would does mean to create a fake digital movie of someone hitting a home run in comparison to a person actually doing it for real?

Below, I've attached a recent picture. Photoshoped or not? What do you think?

P.S. What is really bizarre, and I got this from an art gallery owner, is they want you to create "digital art" because it can sell for more than "mere" photographs.

Dave Harris
Life is short, death is long, there is no perfection in life, only in death; perfect stillness. Enjoy life!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Fri 26-Oct-07 01:39 PM
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#78. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Columbia, US
          

DGH,

In regards to the image you posted, I can only think of one way which might have 'swirled' the leaves on the ground of the tree, and that would be to walk/run while moving backwards around the tree while the shutter was open. Or, some type of device attached to the camera, moving backwards wround the tree while the shutter was open would produce a swirl effect. However, the surrounding tree branches and leaves should have had the same effect from the camera movement, but they don't. Especially the tree branch coming in from the top left of the image. It is unaffected, which means whatever technique was used wasn't the actual camera being moved, right?

Another technique I've read about is zooming in our out while the shutter is open, which can produce similar a similar effect, but more in a linear motion.

Since I can't imagine how the camera could have been moved to only 'swirl' certain elements, I'm voting Photoshop.

Update: I thought about this on my way home from work. I was thinking the camera stayed on one plane. If you had a long shutter speed and had the camera pointed towards the ground while you backed around the tree, then pointed the camera up, towards the tree, just before the shutter closed, it might produce the effect. Is this right?

Enlighten me!

James

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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dgh3 Registered since 29th Jan 2007Sat 27-Oct-07 04:53 PM
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#81. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 78


Syracuse, US
          

Sorry for not getting back sooner. The shot of the fall tree is 100% in camera. Perhaps I balanced the lighting levels, but that's it.

How done? My wife and I went out for a drive in the evening, low light, long shutter exposures. I had on a polarizing filter that knocked another couple of stops off my shutter speed.

My wife was driving along at about 25 mph, I leaned out the window and shot a long exposure, about 1/10 second. As I shot I tracked the center of the tree as best I could. Thus, some parts stay in place, light the light, because they pretty much remained in the area I was pointing at longer than other parts. The swirl arose from my rotating the camera as we drove past.

I shot the picture with my VR 18-200 at 18. I think the VR did help as it reduced blur to my and the car's motion, leaving a clear look at the motion blur induced in the tree, and not jittery-blur, that would have made the thing to blurry everywhere.

That was a fun drive and I've got to do some more before the leaves all fall off.

Dave Harris
Life is short, death is long, there is no perfection in life, only in death; perfect stillness. Enjoy life!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Fri 26-Oct-07 05:32 AM
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#76. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 69


Livermore, CA, US
          

James,

I start to understand more where you're coming from re-reading these past few posts.

I imagine you're looking at a photo with a really nice, shallow depth of field, reading aperture & focal length, and if the background was blurred digitally and not disclosed, then you're not learning what you thought you were.

With all that's been said, I think everyone would agree, including myself, that we'd rather get it perfectly right in the field, and would prefer not to clone out sticks, signs, contrails, etc, but I have no problem doing it to save an otherwise good photo. Regarding adjustments like contrast, dodging & burning, I think types of things are what make good photos breathtaking. But... I have a friend who has a stock of good sky images which he substitutes into otherwise good scenics but with bland atmospheres. Me, I'd never be able to look at such a creation and remember the moment - I'd remember the task of inserting the sky, which to me, would neither be fun to do nor fun to look at afterwards. So, we all have our line.

It's been an interesting conversation.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery
New: My website is live! www.tempered-light.com

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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spiritualized67 Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Mar 2007Fri 26-Oct-07 01:11 AM
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#75. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Slippery Rock, US
          

Thought provoking thread that is sure to bring out polarized views.

As they say, "one man's trash is another man's treasure." Photography can only be defined through the eyes of the person taking the picture. It is a subjective rather than objective thing. For some, taking a more abstract approach is preferred, whereas others may prefer a more traditional route. Either way, they are photographs--so long as they were rendered with a camera (even if their vision has been reinterpreted through post processing).

This is no different than the debate that continues to rage on when you try and compare a picasso with a scrap of twisted metal that is proudly displayed in some avant-garde art house. Who are we to define what is or isn't art. Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder. Photography is no different.

-Dan

www.danielstainer.com

  

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miuky Registered since 24th Jul 2007Fri 26-Oct-07 05:37 AM
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#77. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Koper, SI
          

http://www.MiukySakamoto.net
I agree, absolutelly. Theres no way and it's a lot unfair that an unprocessed picture should be charged as a dig art is. Two totally different things, while a photographer needs some kind of skill to take a perfect photo, someone like me can remove small mistakes with a software, digitally.
It would be wonderful if here, at nikonians, there would be a separate gallery for images that goes over this line that separate a photography from a post processed picture. Anyway there should be specific instruction, what is digital manipulation and what's
minimally processed picture.
As I'm the one that can do both, i can help with some advices with this.
Thanks a lot for your time and will to do it.
Waiting for answeres and oppinions from you all...
Miuky

http://www.MiukySakamoto.net

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Los Angeles, US
          

It is REALLY DIFFICULT to do photo realistic digital art work. Those who do it want credit! They make sure that you KNOW it's not a photo.

The exception is those who want to deceive people for monatary, political or religious gains.....or as a joke.

Removing stray branches, un-wanted bystanders etc. are the most usual touch ups and are part of photography.

The following photo is an early manipulation of mine that looks as fake as it is. On par with a poorly conterfitted $20 bill. The really good stuff passes as real. Hours of labor and a lot more needed. House is in Australia, Sky is at sea, Mountains are an Hawaiian Island. I posted it on "A picture I took" and was caught immediately! (As I expected.) Re-posted on Renderosity, some people liked it.


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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Los Angeles, US
          

Except for the circular crop, and sharpening (sorry, got to sharpen with a D200, either in camera or software) this is straight from the camera. I'll let you be the judge how photoshopped it looks. (I'm using a fisheye stacked on a 50mm)

My Nikonian Gallery

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-07 11:12 AM
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#85. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

Now this one is very cool (the one that's done with a fisheye stacked on a 50mm).

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Los Angeles, US
          

This looks like 100% digital art. Under exposed, camera upside down, hand held for a long exposure.

It's the lights over a buffet table.

Edit: My best work is not Nikonian material, and doesn't belong here due to subject matter. I could do a quality manipulation for Nikonians - but why? It's not what we are about. "Anmoku no ryokai" Japanese for unspoken, implicit agreement.

AND.... if a branch gets in the way of a good bird shot, out it goes!

My Nikonian Gallery

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Noel Holland Platinum Member Winner in the Nikonians 10th Anniversary Photo Contest Charter MemberThu 01-Nov-07 08:28 PM
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#91. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Epsom, GB
          

Since this thread has finally reached the 99 posts mark I'd though I'd stick in my measly two penneth worth to make the round 100.

To all those who seem to think that "real photography" doesn't include image manipulation please go back and read any book by Ansel Adams especially "Examples, The making of 40 photographs". Adams, the one person who's work is constantly held up an as the icon of what a pure photograph is, was one of the greatest exponents and teachers of dodging, burning and push/pull processing. And if anyone had the gall to suggest his work isn't real photography they'd likely be deafened by the laughter.

The division between photography and graphic art is at times very slim, and frankly IMHO completely pointless. A good photographer is an artist, and artist makes use of tools at their disposal. To single out digital manipulation as not being real photography is akin to saying that a painting is only a "real" painting if it's done with oils and brushes.

I can only suspect that those who wish to draw clear lines between "real photography" and digital art do so because they afraid that their own skills are somehow diminished by someone else's different skill base and want to mark out some turf protection. For them I feel sorry for they have missed the real joy of photography. They see photography simply as a sterile recorder of facts and are oblivious to the deep rich texture that photography as art offers.

Unlike in life, in photography the end does justify the means. When I have a vision of what I want an image to look like I don't give a tinkers cuss what techniques I use to get there, only the final result matters.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-07 09:40 PM
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#93. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 91


Los Angeles, US
          

<a breathtaking image manipulation can be done quite literally by pushing a button>

OH! PLEASE, TELL ME WHERE THAT BUTTON IS!!!

Learning to create a breathtaking image manipulation is as easy as learning to play an musical instrument. Photoshop is like learning another language.

My Nikonian Gallery

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Fri 02-Nov-07 09:40 AM
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#102. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 91


GB
          

"I can only suspect that those who wish to draw clear lines between "real photography" and digital art do so because they afraid that their own skills are somehow diminished by someone else's different skill base and want to mark out some turf protection."

Noel, I respectfully disagree with your comment. You are assuming that all those who want to draw a line between photography and digital art are hopeless at Photoshop. I doubt that. Imagine that you are as good as Bert Monroy (you probably are) who IMHO, has produced a masterpiece of the Damen Station in Chicago and someone comes along and says that its only a photograph? I bet you that after spending eleven months and close to 2000 hours on it, you would like to think that its more than a photograph. You would probably say that anyone could have taken a photograph of Damen Station but only a select few would have the time, patience and skill to create a masterpiece in Photoshop. In fact Bert Monroy says that he is not a photographer which implies that he recognizes that he doesn't have the skills of a photographer. I agree with him. Photography and digital art are two different skill sets. Some people are damn good at digital art but hopeless at photography. As photographers, I think we should respect people like Bert. I do. I feel that it would be arrogant and insensitive of me to label Bert's work as a 'photograph'.


john

  

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 10:22 AM
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#103. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 102


Paris, FR
          

I agree heartily that Monroy's work is "art", I even compared it to Richard Estes' work in reply #92...

Noël Holland is big enough to reply by himself, but I really believe that the whole thread is built on confusions...

The first being in the over-simplification of the "before and after" type... Before digital, after digital, before electricity, after electricity, etc... While many points of the lengthy debate are valid, they have not much to do with "digitalness" (gee... I'm coining words in english ).

Most of them were there even before photography between "true" artists and ilustrators with etching techniques!

What nobody disputes is that each time a technique allows a greater number of people to use it, there is a time of excess where anything happens. From this apparent "mess", new uses, new techniques, new art-forms emerges, just as bad habits, laziness and approximations. Time usually sort them out

The other main confusion is more of our societies today, while each of us can dispose of an incredible array of knowledge and techniques, some chose not to use them... Because they like it that way, or because they find the constraint of using very old techniques as a boost for their art. Every artist has his phases and periods of styles.

The thread title should have been "Photography & Art", not "versus" nor "digital art" as the latest doesn't mean anything for most artists !

What is Art, is a question I haven't yet answered to (and believe I'll never do, even with high level studies in esthetics). What is photography beyond the mere technique, neither !
What I know, for sure, is that for most of us here it is also a "pleasure" and a "learning", it can even sometimes be a philosophy of "looking at the world"...

So it's not very useful to go on "bashing" such technique or brand, or style, or countries, either in such"café" threads, or more perversely in small out of topic phrases in other forums, as one can see from time to time... On the other hand, a good discussion, even if sometimes "heated", can be healthy for all those who allow differences...


Jacques

"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
My Gallery...

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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Noel Holland Platinum Member Winner in the Nikonians 10th Anniversary Photo Contest Charter MemberFri 02-Nov-07 02:08 PM
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#104. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 102


Epsom, GB
          

>You are assuming that all those who want to draw a line between photography and digital art are hopeless at Photoshop

I assumed nothing of the sort. If you re-read my post you will find that I never made any reference to photoshop or even any reference to the use of a computer. You might have inferred that a computer is a neccessary part of the production of digital art but this is not the case. as has been pointed out in a previous post, combining shots in camera is manipulation but in that case requires no computer and it is digital manipulation if the camera is digital instead of film. The same applies for applying in camera curves, sharpening, etc . All are image manipulations in the strictest sense in that they alter the final image.

There is a grey band which expands from the completely messianic viewpoint that any digital process is not photography and therefore only film is real photography, all the way across to the anything goes camp.

Over 80 years ago Man Ray re-posed the question of what a photograph really is when he produced his set of solar prints. The very first photographic book was a set of solar prints (Anna Atkins, British Algae: Cyanotype impressions, 1843) which btw were published 1 year before Fox talbots Pencil of Nature in 1844. These images did not even require the use of a camera as they used the physical object as it's own negative and recorded the shadow. Now bring that to today..... is an image of an object recorded via a scanner rather than a camera a photograph? Yes / no?

Now take that further and ask yourself at what point a film generated silver halide print which is scanned into a computer stops being a photograph and suddenly morphed into being a digital image? Is it still a photograph even though it's stored as bytes?

Now that image stored in the computer, it gathered some dust spots in the scanning process so you spot them out. Did it stop being a photograph?

The scanners profile was slightly out and the image has a slight cast on the screen so you make a colour balance adjustment. Did it stop being a photograph?

The dynamic range of the scanner was too narrow for the current colour space the image is stored in so you have to make a slight correction to contrast curve. Did it stop being a photograph?

Where do you stop? At what point does someone draw the line and say "STOP, so far but no further!".

Let's not kid ourselves here, this whole discussion is about drawing lines. It's not about what you can do but what you MUST NOT EVER DO. It's saying that once you cross that line you are no longer one of us but one of them.

It's about controlling and rigidly defining what a photograph is and what a camera should be used for. It's elitism at it's worst - we are better because the rules say so and we know that because we set the rules, you could never understand because you are not one of us.

The literal meaning of Photography is light drawing. I'm an artist who creates images. I use light and a reactive surface to create that image and that is what defines me as a photographer and what I produce as photographs. The process I use to go from the latent image on the reactive surface to a final permanent record do not define me as a photographer, they are tools to create the end result. The tools are not the art, the image is.

I leave my last word to Magritte - Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 03:52 PM
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#107. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 104


marina del rey, US
          

>Now take that further and ask yourself at what point a film
>generated silver halide print which is scanned into a
>computer stops being a photograph and suddenly morphed into
>being a digital image? Is it still a photograph even though
>it's stored as bytes?

>Where do you stop? At what point does someone draw the line
>and say "STOP, so far but no further!".

Yo Noel,

this is it precisely! Once that piece of film is scanned, and becomes a digital image, it most definitely is no longer a photograph, but has become a facsimile.

best, andy


"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 06:55 PM
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#110. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 107


Petersburg, US
          

>this is it precisely! Once that piece of film is scanned,
>and becomes a digital image, it most definitely is no longer
>a photograph, but has become a facsimile.

Awwww so the photographs I see in perhaps National Geographic aren't photographs at all using this rationale. So I guess if I should meet a National Geographic Photographer, I should simply say..."I like your facsimiles I see in the magazine???"


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 02:49 PM
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#105. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 102


Petersburg, US
          

>As photographers, I think we should respect
>people like Bert.

I respect him no more nor less then I would any artist who creates something regardless how they may do it but how does this have any relationship to photography??

>I do. I feel that it would be arrogant and
>insensitive of me to label Bert's work as a 'photograph'.

Ummmm.....I think it would be simply wrong to call this a photograph because it isn't. Unless I am missing something, it is digital art created out of the head of the artist just like a painting. There is simply no difference. He may have used a photograph as his guide but painters do this as well but a photograph is not an actual part of this creation.

It is photo-realistic because of the details but it is not photography. Photography is about not creating a piece from imagination but capturing what is there. Don't confuse this with someone who may set up a shot with props, lighting, etc. While he/she may create the scene, he/she is ultimately capturing with a camera what he has set up.

I do not understand why you would hold this up as an example in the first place. There is nothing about it that is "photographic" in nature except the fact that some may confuse it for a photograph because of the realism. Heck some people confuse some of my D2H prints as paintings because of the mushy look of the pixels when blown large and not because of "manipulation".


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 04:45 PM
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#108. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Colorado Springs, US
          

Guys, this has been an interesting discussion, but has unfortunately crossed into a topic resembling religion. You ought to consider the usefulness of continuing the debate with each other, especially since it's started to become personal and is unlikely to change opinions.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 07:57 PM
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#113. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 108


marina del rey, US
          

>You
>ought to consider the usefulness of continuing the debate
>with each other, especially since it's started to become
>personal and is unlikely to change opinions.

Yo Rick,

not so fast!

Your first concern is unlikely to cause trouble, as most of us here can bring ourselves up. And, although you are right in saying we're unlikely to change the opinions of others, at least we can try to be sure we have carefully and accurately expressed our own.

So.., how 'bout this new digital art?

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Sun 04-Nov-07 05:00 PM
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#116. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 113


Columbia, US
          

A previous post stated:

"The thread title should have been "Photography & Art", not "versus" nor "digital art" as the latest doesn't mean anything for most artists!


As the starter of this thread, I agree to an extent. I could have titled it "Just a Photograph?", or "Photography versus other art forms." or any of a dozen other titles.

My point in the beginning was meant to be this:

When someone uses a camera to capture an image, that 'raw' image is a photograph.

To be viewed by others that image has to be changed in some way to be viewed by other people, whether it's printed, or saved to a computer for viewing on a monitor.

Once that original image leaves the camera (Where it was already processed to some degree if it is a digital camera.), the image has ALREADY become something a little different from what it was when the shutter release was first pressed.

NOW comes the debate:

When the image has left the digital camera, each time an element is changed it is LESS like the original, but arguably the image falls in the realm of 'photography' if content hasn't been changed excessively..

This is where it becomes gray. How much can the original image be manipulated before the art form has changed from simply photography to something else?

From this thread I've learned that dark room techniques are an art form in themselves. Same for Photoshop. Perhaps these skills fall into the category of 'photography', but they are distinct from simply pressing the shutter release with proper camera settings for correct exposure. They are art forms themselves.

What I have a problem with is someone calling an image a PHOTOGRAPH which was taken with a camera, downloaded onto a computer, and manipulated in such a way that the original could NOT have been captured with a camera.

My position is now this: An image which contains elements which would be impossible to capture solely with a camera and associated lenses, filters and other CAMERA attachments is not simply a photography, but an amalgam of photography and another art form. An extreme example of this would be a photograph of a trampoline which had a bouncing bear added to it in Photoshop or a dark room. That image is not a photograph, but a composite of some sort. Another form of art altogether.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Sun 04-Nov-07 06:21 PM
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#117. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 116


marina del rey, US
          

>As the starter of this thread, I agree to an extent. I could
>have titled it "Just a Photograph?", or "Photography versus
>other art forms." or any of a dozen other titles..

Yo James,

thank you for creating such a provocative post. It is easy for someone to criticise your choice of title NOW, looking back at the path we see the post has taken. It was your provocative title which also drew response. Again, thank you.

>When someone uses a camera to capture an image, that 'raw'
>image is a photograph.
>
>To be viewed by others that image has to be changed in some
>way to be viewed by other people, whether it's printed, or
>saved to a computer for viewing on a monitor.

With film, this must include developing and scanning to obtain the digital file. This transition to a digital file creates an image which we traditionally call a facsimile. This UNMANIPULATED/UNIMPROVED file may be used to print or publish digitally (as in a forum) once it has been compressed to JPG and resized to fit site regulations.

>Once that original image leaves the camera (Where it was
>already processed to some degree if it is a digital
>camera.), the image has ALREADY become something a little
>different from what it was when the shutter release was
>first pressed.

It is at this point, with the original media (developed, scanned film vs CF card, etc. if we are to allow both to go to a monitor..) on which the "photograph" was captured, that we diverge from photography to "post-processing".

>NOW comes the debate:

Precisely HERE, as you say!

It is here that a film image can be retouched, blemishes removed, and darkroom tricks like darkening the corners and lightening some shadows can be applied to augment the print--just as in PS.

>When the image has left the digital camera, each time an
>element is changed it is LESS like the original, but
>arguably the image falls in the realm of 'photography' if
>content hasn't been changed excessively..
>
>This is where it becomes gray. How much can the original
>image be manipulated before the art form has changed from
>simply photography to something else?
>
>From this thread I've learned that dark room techniques are
>an art form in themselves. Same for Photoshop. Perhaps these
>skills fall into the category of 'photography', but they are
>distinct from simply pressing the shutter release with
>proper camera settings for correct exposure. They are art
>forms themselves.
>
>What I have a problem with is someone calling an image a
>PHOTOGRAPH which was taken with a camera, downloaded onto a
>computer, and manipulated in such a way that the original
>could NOT have been captured with a camera..

That is really any manipulation.

>Another form of art altogether.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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pforsell Silver Member Charter MemberSun 04-Nov-07 06:33 PM
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#118. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Pori, FI
          

I just realized how long this thread has become, so it must be important to many people. I couldn't care less.

All I want is to shoot and admire beautiful images, mine and others'. I don't mind manipulation, because all the manipulation in the world can't make a bad photograph into a good photograph.

My D200 actuation counter shows 3409 art files, the last one being here: Latest piece of art. It's been manipulated beyond all limits so that it has nothing to do with photography.

I hope everybody finds the limits for his/her hobby (and profession) so that everybody can get joy out of it. That's the point, right?

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Sun 04-Nov-07 07:37 PM
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#119. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 118


Columbia, US
          

" It's been manipulated beyond all limits so that it has nothing to do with photography."

Sarcasm? Was the leaf added after the image was taken? Was the ice added later? If not, then it's more photography than manipulation.

If the leaf was not in the original image, then, yes, it's not simply a photograph. It's still art!

By the way, great photograph!

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Martin Turner Moderator Expert professional PJ & PR photographer Nikonian since 19th Jun 2006Sun 04-Nov-07 09:32 PM
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#120. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 119


Bidford on Avon, GB
          

I see I've been missing a lot by missing this thread.

May I add a couple of observations.

First, this is not www.photography.org, but www.nikonians.org. The rules are that it has to relate to Nikons, not specifically 'photography'.

Second, fishing up definitions from dictionaries is unhelpful. Meaning is defined by usage. Dictionaries only attempt to record how words are used. This is why the introduction of new words into English comes first by use, and not by the decisions of dictionary makers, and also how English was able to exist before Samuel Johnson wrote the first dictionary. This is also why there isn't just one 'definition' for anything.

Now to the real deal.

Virtually no image captured by a CCD can be used without some kind of digital processing. This is because the values are stacked up at one end and have to be 'developed', and because the separate layers have to be combined and demosaiced. No image at all captured on film can be used without processing, although Polaroids are the closest you get.

Clearly, therefore, we have to accept a certain degree of post-processing.

What degree is acceptable?

The word 'photograph' describes a process by which the image is captured — that is, through a partially automated process. Until Jackson Pollock, this distinguished the photograph (and its derivatives film and video) from all other kinds of visual art, because other visual art passed first through the mind of the artist and then only subsequently into the final medium. Jackson Pollock is in a sense the first digital artist, because he initiates a mathematical process which then creates the image. Users of Bryce, Poser, Cinema 4D, Strata, Maya and Lightwave are followers in the footsteps of Pollock.

It's slightly ironic that we are discussing whether digital art can be true photography, since the much older debate is whether photography can be true art.

To my mind, there are degrees of photographic purism, and it's up to the photographer (if they aspire to be an artist) to set and perhaps even declare those degrees. Consider the example of Lars von Trier's Dogme school of film making. Under Dogme, only the equipment of the documentary film maker can be used, and the only props which are allowable are the ones you find in the locale where you are filming. Von Trier has a number of other rules, and they are well-understood and respected by most art film-makers — respected in the sense that people hold von Trier in high esteem: most art film-makers are not making Dogme films! Dogme does not lead typically to great commercial success, though it does allow under-funded film-makers to create work which is respected despite their low budgets. However, Dogme sometimes crosses over onto the main stream. The British hit film 28 Days Later was a Dogme-inspired picture shot entirely on a semi-professional Canon camcorder. Many of its extraordinary scenes of abandoned London were shot in true Dogme style, although it was forced to break away from the aesthetic for its empty motorway scenes, among others.

These are the degrees which I see:

1) Purist — images shot using available light with no post-processing beyond that which takes place in camera
2) Photojournalistic — images shot 'al fresco' without post-processing beyond that which _could_ have happened in camera (ie, you can redevelop in Raw), but with the possibility of the use of single or multiple flash.
3) Documentary — images shot to exactly represent a scene or situation as it actually is, with whatever lighting and selective exposure necessary to present this as accurately as possible.
4) Studio — images which have been created from start to finish, including choice of scene, selection of models (or objects), clothing, makeup, lighting, facial expression, and going on through post-processing, for example removing stray hairs, smoothing, sharpening, and selective recolouring.
5) Composite — an image created from more than one image, for example by the imposition of a background behind a model, or the stitching together of a panorama.
6) Photographic illustration — an image which has been created from one or more images, but where additional meaning has been put into the image by morphing, distortion, addition of lines or areas, textures, graphics or special effects, but which remains in the digital (or dark-room) realm.
7) Mixed media — a photographic illustration where a degree of the combination of elements has taken place once the image has left the digital (or dark-room) realm.

Personally speaking, I shoot three kinds of photograph. For my job, I shoot photojournalistic and studio. I keep the two very separate. I wouldn't dream of retouching an image for a newspaper. Equally, I wouldn't dream of _not_ doing a full retouch job on a studio shot aimed at an advertising campaign. If someone said to me of a picture on one of our adverts "is that a photograph", then I would still say 'yes'. The only exception would be on the ad we did a few years ago where we changed the time on a digital alarm clock to say "Oh no!". We got quite a lot of interest in that one, and I always told people it was a Photoshop manipulation.
For myself, I shoot whatever I like, but I stick to a fairly consistent documentary style — in fact, typically a purist style, without the use of flash. However, after the fact I may keep the image documentary, or I may soften, sharpen, and possibly clone out distracting elements. To me it's still a photograph whether I do this or not.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.

M A R T I N • T U R N E R
http://art.martinturner.org.uk
http://www.martinturner.org.uk

Nikonians membership: my most important photographic investment, after the camera

My Nikonians blog, Learning from the Portrait Masters, http://blog.nikonians.org/martin_turner/

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 05-Nov-07 11:36 AM
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#121. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 120


Columbia, US
          

Martin,

Thanks for an excellent post. I really like the list you provided, and I agree, wholeheartedly, with pretty much everything you've said.

This says it all:

"First, this is not www.photography.org, but www.nikonians.org. The rules are that it has to relate to Nikons, not specifically 'photography'."

I suppose it might be beneficial to have a separate forum, similar to the macro forum, for individuals to post their digital work (Images which are mostly digital creations and not simply photographic in nature.), but I understand why Nikon-Galleries would contain both types of images as well. It's not just for 'Photographs'.

Each time I log off of Nikonians, I'm left thinking "What a great website!"

I look forward to spending time here for many years to come as I mature in my multifaceted hobby.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Mon 05-Nov-07 02:21 PM
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#122. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 121


Los Angeles, US
          

<beneficial to have a separate forum, similar to the macro forum, for individuals to post their digital work (Images which are mostly digital creations and not simply photographic in nature.>

Beneficial to whom? Were back to square 1. Where's the line? While I don't see anyone posting digital artwork here, other's see it everyplace. (It's kind of difficult to post a fractal generated "flower" in the Macro Forum if no camera or flower was used and keep with the spirit of Nikonians. Fractals are as digital as it gets - art derived solely from mathamatical formulas. Quite a few physists and mystics say the universe is fractal.)


Martin: Interesting angle on Jackson Pollock, it makes sense. I never would have thought he pulled it off mathamatacally. Although, when it comes to math and art my first thought is MC Eisher, who considered himself as much as mathamatician as an artist.


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Martin Turner Moderator Expert professional PJ & PR photographer Nikonian since 19th Jun 2006Mon 05-Nov-07 05:08 PM
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#123. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 122


Bidford on Avon, GB
          


>
>Martin: Interesting angle on Jackson Pollock, it makes
>sense. I never would have thought he pulled it off
>mathamatacally. Although, when it comes to math and art my
>first thought is MC Eisher, who considered himself as much
>as mathamatician as an artist.
>

Actually, that's the distinction between Pollock and Escher that I was thinking of. A Bryce or Poser user will artistically shape their creation, and then set it to render without necessarily understanding or thinking about the mathematical processes that follow, but the whole of the digital world in which they operate is mathematically governed. Pollock arranged his tin cans with an artistic understanding of what sort of result he was going to get, but without (I think) a precise physical or mathematical understanding of how it worked. Like a digital artist, he set his process to render.

M A R T I N • T U R N E R
http://art.martinturner.org.uk
http://www.martinturner.org.uk

Nikonians membership: my most important photographic investment, after the camera

My Nikonians blog, Learning from the Portrait Masters, http://blog.nikonians.org/martin_turner/

  

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Mon 05-Nov-07 05:52 PM
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#124. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 122


Columbia, US
          

Mark,

Beneficial to people like Miuky, who already posted here wishing for the same thing. Apparently there are individuals here who would take advantage of a forum in which peers could judge their manipulations. It would be up to the individual to decide if he/she wanted to post a particular image in that forum. I see nothing wrong with that.

James

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Tue 06-Nov-07 01:06 AM
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#125. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 124


Los Angeles, US
          

www.renderosity.com and YouTube! (Some fantastic manipalations are posted in slide show format.) Anybody who thinks it's easy to do needs to go to YouTube and enter Photoshop as a subject.


My Nikonian Gallery

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Petersburg, US
          

Hi James,

First of all, do not be so quick in assuming a photograph that you may see is digitally manipulated. It very well may not be except for normal contrast and color adjustments.

I have found an interesting phenomenon going on since the rise of digital photography. People in general (not necessarily photo enthusiasts) are too quick in assuming a photograph is a photoshop creation. Some camera enthusiasts may be like this as well since they assume that since they couldn't get such a result from their camera, that it must be a photoshop creation.

I have an exhibit going on and I have photographs that people assume are layers of different photos put together. Needless to say this can be irritating to me since they aren't. I cannot tell you how many times people assume I photoshopped in a moon, etc. Well these are, in all reality, straight photographs with nothing more done to them that I could do in a film darkroom (i.e. contrast adjustments, burn/dodge, etc.). People have kind of done the wink wink, nudge nudge thing to me with a "come on...tell me how you did it". Irritating as it is, it is just a sign of the times. Since people do not think they can't get such photographs from their camera that it must be a photoshop creation. I can show original NEF files to prove they are wrong.

All this said, photo manipulation has been around for far longer then computers and photoshop so it is nothing new. Those people who know what can be done in a wet darkroom can make a LOT of comparisons to darkroom work and photoshop. Do you think making a "mask" is new???? Aside from photojounrnalism and documentary photography, why does it really matter if a photograph is manipulated. A better question may be why is it today that people first assume something has been manipulated.

Unlike what I have in my exhibit, the below photo has been obviously photoshopped to a little or perhaps a great degree. I will let you decide how much or how little I did. I am in the conceptual phase of an advertisement project. I would like to ask you, aside from color and contrast, what elements do you think makes this photo merely a photoshop creation? I will post the original if there is any interest. How much of this photograph comes from the camera and how much is a creation of photoshop? Remember...this is only CONCEPTUAL at this time so don't pick it apart too bad . Also, it is framed in the manner to allow for ad copy and not to be presented as a standalone photo.

I guess all I am trying to say is photography has never been limited to only what comes straight from the camera. Manipulation is nothing new just because we have photoshop and computers. Photographers have used tricks for years such as something as simple as a polarizing filter, etc. that make enthusiasts wonder...why can I get my skies to look so rich and blue. Over time people simply learn how to do things. What is the difference between someone using a polarizing filter on a camera or punching up the sky in photoshop? Both manipulate. What is acceptable manipulation and what isn't? Where can one even begin to draw the line in the sand?





Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Tue 23-Oct-07 05:34 PM
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#32. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Columbia, US
          

"I guess all I am trying to say is photography has never been limited to only what comes straight from the camera."

I agree with this statement, and all I'm saying is that the end result may or not technically be just a photograph in the strictest sense of the term. It may be a photograph with something added or subtracted in the darkroom or Photoshop, in which case it would be nice to have another term to describe the end result to differentiate the image for people who are still learning. I would like to know what images were manipulated and what images weren't to know what I should and should not strive to achieve with my given equipment and/or abilities.

Do you agree that there are things which can be done in Photoshop which can't be done with any other tool? If there are, then I'd like to know if an image uses those techniques to know whether or not I might be able to accomplish the same with just my camera and basic editing software.

I'm not saying it takes away anything from the greatness of the end result. It is still art, and it is still a wonderful thing. I'm just interested in finding out what was involved in making the final image so that I might improve my own work within the limitations of my own abilities and equipment.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberWed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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"RE: Photography versus Digital Art"


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

I like to keep people guessing. Do you think this picture came directly from the camera or is it photoshopped - or both?

Russ
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

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lovemy8514 Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Oct 2007Tue 23-Oct-07 07:19 PM
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#33. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


Columbia, US
          

Camera only.

But I'm not disputing that people's skills can't be good enough to produce effects that mimic what a camera can do alone. I'm not saying someone can't slip something into an image using photoshop ,undetected, as if the final image came right out of the camera.

My only point is that when this happens the result is no longer a true photograph, but some hybrid of a photograph and something else.

Just as if a photojournalist edited a photo to depict something that wasn't actually happening in front of him/her. That edited image wouldn't be true to the original photograph. The final image is something else that I'd like to be able to name, if only for the sake of education. What is a more accurate term for an image who's content has been changed from an original photograph. If it's in the digital domain, I'd say it's digital art. If it's done with negatives and masking in a darkroom, then I'm not sure what it should be called. 'Photograph' is simply not an accurate enough description if the final image is a photograph PLUS something else.

J a m e s
My Gallery

Using his camera as a pen, it is the photographer's job to tell a story: Each page authored in frozen moments of time.

All of my work is dedicated to my father, Terry Lee Geib (1943-2009)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberTue 23-Oct-07 07:39 PM
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#34. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 33


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>Camera only.

You're right. In fact it is exactly as shot. No photoshopping at all.

Russ
http://russmacdonald.smugmug.com/

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Wed 16-Jan-08 02:08 PM
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#126. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 0


marina del rey, US
          

>..may never feel our work competes with others because we're
>comparing our photographs with other people's digital
>artwork..

>A distinction should be made between these digitally
>manipulated images and minimally processed photographs..

Yo James,

thank you for such a provocative post. You have captured some of my own feelings.

All of my photography is with film cameras. As my main camera is the F3, most of my photography is manual-focus. To share one of my images here, I scan that film on a KM 5400II. Scanner brightness is adjustable. Digital Ice will likely be used to remove dust. In PS Elements, I crop/resize/compress to meet our posting requirement here. This resulting "facsimile" of my original photo I will call an unmanipulated image, insofar as I have done nothing intentionally to modify the original image, or to "improve" its' look with fancy computer programs. No sharpening or other special computerized techniques are applied.

What I mean to say is that I really do understand your dismay at there being no level playing field. And I especially value my own work for its' LACK of manipulation. It would be wonderful to have a special place to publish among other equally-unmanipulated images. The Prongsters over in the manual focus camera forum are among my favorite critics.

Photography and digital art are both art. Though two different artforms which share many of the same aspects, and similar kinds of equipment. It is really the "digital darkroom" work that separates the two.

I'll post an unmanipulated image for goodwill.

Shooting data: F3//85/1.4 wide open//Velvia.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

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sms60 Silver Member Charter MemberWed 31-Oct-07 09:19 PM
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#82. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 126


Wheaton, US
          

Okay, this is digital art, and the prints from the disposable cameras we used at Christmas last year are photographs. I just don't think we'll all ever agree on where exactly the line is between the two. Certainly if the person requesting the images (news organization, commercial customer, contest sponsor) lays down rules for submissions, the rules should be respected; and anything represented as a journalistic capture of a moment in time should be just that. Other than that, it's really up to the conscience of the individual photographer, er . . ., image maker, as to disclosure of how much or in what way the image content has been created outside the camera.

Sean Sullivan
Chicago

My Nikonians Gallery

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Thu 01-Nov-07 10:18 AM
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#83. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 82


Paris, FR
          

Wow... Thank's for that link, as it is true art on the hyperealistic side ! I'm amazed by that work as it reminds me of Richard Estes' one (painting)...!

Jacques

"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
My Gallery...

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-07 11:09 AM
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#84. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 126


Richmond, US
          

> It is really the "digital darkroom" work that separates the two.

But what's the difference between doing it with chemicals in a darkroom and doing the same thing in a computer? The media shouldn't make the difference. By this definition, the Ansel Adams referred to above (in which he discretely removed a distracting road in a corner of a photo) is "art" and "not photography." Or perhaps it is photography, because it was done chemically? But if his assistant (posthumously) prints another, functionally identical print from the scanned negative, and removes the road digitally, that's "not photography" while the original is?

Back in one of my original posts, I describe four different ways of producing an identical work, two of which are "photography" by any definition (in that they use ONLY a camera to produce the result) and one is "not photography" because it requires the use of digital techniques, and one I suppose is some borderline region because it requires mounting four unmodified transparencies in a single mount. So where is the dividing line?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Mark V Registered since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-07 02:15 PM
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#86. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 84


Los Angeles, US
          

Here's some more confusion.

Renderosity a digital art gallery thats 90% Maya/Poser/Lightwave etc. now has a catagory called Photo Manipulation. (They have welcomed photographs from the beginning, in any form.)

Breeze thru that catagory and it quickly becomes obvious that the posters don't have an idea where the boundry is. The entries range from "I adjusted the tone so its a manipulation", to simple layered photos, to computer generated realities with a photo in there someplace.

My current favorite: A morph of a pig-rabbit, with a furry pig face thats cute enough to bring home to the kids. It's real enough for a magazine like Science or Smithsonian to pass off as a breakthru in genetic manipulation.



http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?section_id=&genre_id=74

My Nikonian Gallery

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Thu 01-Nov-07 02:48 PM
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#87. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 84


marina del rey, US
          

>> It is really the "digital darkroom" work that separates the two.
>
>But what's the difference between doing it with chemicals in
>a darkroom and doing the same thing in a computer? The
>media shouldn't make the difference.

Yo Brian,

the difference is:

One relies solely upon the skill of the photographer in his darkroom.

The other relies on the efforts of a team of computer programmers who created the software which is actually doing the work.

This is not to say that there is no talent or skill required--far from it. But one must accept that the results have been a collaborative effort, not the work of one person.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Thu 01-Nov-07 03:45 PM
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#88. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 87


Paris, FR
          

Do you mean that when you put a new film in your camera it's collaborative work between Oskar Barnack and some guys at Eastman Kodak ? That when I print in a wet darkroom I must thank Ilford and Fox Talbot and Isaac Newton... And Nicéphore Niepce for the fact that he "gave" freely photography to the world...???

Maybe I should thank Babbage and Von Neumann to allow me to use this board with my computer... And of course Grace Hopper for the "bugs" we find here and there...

Thank you for this viewpoint

Jacques

"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
My Gallery...

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 01-Nov-07 04:48 PM
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#89. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 87


Richmond, US
          

So if I wrote new clean-room code that does EXACTLY the same thing as Photoshop, then it would be different?

How about if I'm actually an Adobe programmer who builds Photoshop? If I use my own code to get the same result, that constitutes "photography" but if I use someone else's, it's not?

If I use Lee McLeans' formula for making a print look a certain way (eg process the negative with a specific developer, using high temperatures, print with preflashing, etc), is it still "my" photography if I would never have stumbled on that algorithm on my own? Or is it "collaborative art?"

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Thu 01-Nov-07 05:57 PM
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#90. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 87


Petersburg, US
          

Geez Andy,

You are digging yourself a bigger hole. You do have chemists who developed chemicals used by many in a darkroom. You have people who design the various paper types used in a darkroom. I relied on the folks at Ilford to give me various grades of Ilfordbrom paper. I relied on the folks at Kodak to give me Dextol, D76. etc. Now all of these aren't worth a darn if you don't have a photographer who know how to use all this stuff. How are these chemists any different then the programmers at Adobe?

I know it took a lot of time to develop my skills to use what Ilford and Kodak provided me as tools. It is not as if I walked in the darkroom and was able to immediately get the results I was after. The very same thing holds true with Photoshop. It is not as if I was able to buy the product 7 years ago and immediately get results that I get today. It has taken time to learn how to use this "tool" made by Adobe to get the results I am after.

To be honest, I have spent far more time and effort learning Photoshop then I did learning my way around a wet darkroom. You are given a lot more information on how to develop a roll a film from the film manufacturer (temperature/times/agitation in different developers) then you are given from Adobe on how to process a raw file .

Since I use a digital darkroom, I can't call the output photography? I am sure that the photographers who have shot digital stories for National Geographic would find this interesting .

You seem to minimize "skill" when it comes to processing digital files. As one who spent his youth in a darkroom (my own and one at a studio I worked for), I have found that processing and printing digital files to be more challenging. This is coming from someone who has spent so much time in a darkroom that there are probably still traces of acedic acid in my blood from 30 years ago.

Processing in the digital darkroom takes no less of skill of the photographer then a wet darkroom. Of course there are many film and digital photographers who are more then willing to turn their negaitives or files over to someone else to process and print and really know very little about each of the processes. I, for one, do my own processing for ultimate control.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Thu 01-Nov-07 09:01 PM
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#92. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 90


marina del rey, US
          

> You do have
>chemists who developed chemicals used by many in a darkroom.
> You have people who design the various paper types used in
>a darkroom..How are these chemists any
>different then the programmers at Adobe?

>Do you mean that when you put a new film in your camera it's
>collaborative work between Oskar Barnack and some guys at
>Eastman Kodak ?

>So if I wrote new clean-room code that does EXACTLY the same
>thing as Photoshop, then it would be different?
>
>How about if I'm actually an Adobe programmer who builds
>Photoshop?

Yo Brian, Jacques, Mel,

your desperate arguements only serve to convince me of the truth underlying my beliefs.

So we can be sure we're discussing the same thing, please consider my quote in its' original context:

>Photography and digital art are both art. Though two
>different artforms which share many of the same aspects, and
>similar kinds of equipment. It is really the "digital
>darkroom" work that separates the two.

Then, to your question:

>>But what's the difference between doing it with chemicals in
>>a darkroom and doing the same thing in a computer? The
>>media shouldn't make the difference.

I explain:

>One relies solely upon the skill of the photographer in his
>darkroom.
>
>The other relies on the efforts of a team of computer
>programmers who created the software which is actually doing
>the work.
>
>This is not to say that there is no talent or skill
>required--far from it. But one must accept that the results
>have been a collaborative effort, not the work of one
>person.

Now, I would like for us to imagine a knowledgeable and farsighted photographer, upon seeing and handling a digital camera for the first time (years ago), suddenly being struck with the idea:
"This is going to change the world of photography as we know it."

This is what has happened.

Photography "as we knew it" has changed.

If I may be allowed to oversimplify, nowadays, a breathtaking image manipulation can be done quite literally by pushing a button. A blind person could push that button, as long as he could find it. The result is the combined efforts of a crack team of programmers suddenly applying their professional experience, skill and training to improving your image, in a few microseconds. Do you expect adoration for the push of the button, or for writing the check to buy the software?

It is specifically the "manipulation" which is responsible for the difference between photography (film or digital) and digital art.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Thu 01-Nov-07 09:52 PM
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#94. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 92


Paris, FR
          

I believe in the "Live and let live" motto... So I'll stop here, as some times discussions are useless...
So if you're happy with your viewpoint, allow me to continue editing code for my pictures just as I do for "real" buildings I design, with a pencil or with a computer, indifferently, even if now I'll have to watch for all those collaborative gremlins in my hard disk... But after all isn't it Halloween
I just hope they won't ask for some cash at the end of the month

Jacques

"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
My Gallery...

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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sms60 Silver Member Charter MemberThu 01-Nov-07 10:08 PM
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#95. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 92


Wheaton, US
          

>If I may be allowed to oversimplify, nowadays, a
>breathtaking image manipulation can be done quite literally
>by pushing a button. A blind person could push that button,
>as long as he could find it.

Without entering the "what is photography" debate, I will just say that you can now change -- or "manipulate" -- an image with the press of a button. To truly improve the image, however, or even better to make it breathtaking, takes knowledge; and skill; and practice; and vision (the artistic kind, not the kind necessary to find the button). That's what makes this all fun -- trying to find ways to make images that better reflect what we are trying to show.

Sean Sullivan
Chicago

My Nikonians Gallery

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Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Thu 01-Nov-07 11:37 PM
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#96. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 92


Petersburg, US
          

>your desperate arguements only serve to convince me of the
>truth underlying my beliefs.

Hey Andy,

Could what you percieve as "desperate arguments" could simply be rational opinions from those who are quite experienced in wet and digital darkroom work (I know I am) and because of this experience know that conceptually and on a practical basis that there are far more similarities between the two processes then differences? Experience can shape perceptions. My experience of 35 years of photography and photographic processes (from inhaling acetic acid under the glow of an amber light viewing an image in a tray to using a mouse viewing an image on a computer monitor) have shaped my perception which I have expressed numerous times in this thread. I am left to wonder the experience some have had with BOTH processes considering comments I have read.

Now I will follow Jacques lead and his "Live and let live" motto... So I'll stop here as well with full agreement that "some times discussions are useless..."


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 02-Nov-07 02:30 AM
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#97. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 92


Richmond, US
          

> Do you expect adoration for the push of the button, or for writing the check to buy the software?

I think this is a pretty insulting and demeaning comment.

And with that, I've had it with this thread.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 02:59 AM
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#98. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 97


marina del rey, US
          


>And with that, I've had it with this thread.

Yo Brian, Jacques, Mel, Sean,

now that we've finished having fun with each other, we can allow the two artforms to "do what they do". One is not the other, nor does it need to be. And saying it, does not make it so. We will each enjoy the art of our choice.

Once all my "manipulating" is done, there is only one button I want to push--the shutter release.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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sms60 Silver Member Charter MemberFri 02-Nov-07 04:11 AM
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#99. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 98


Wheaton, US
          

And I don't really need to know which one I'm engaged in as I press that button, whether its on the camera or the mouse. Well said Andy, and on to the next topic.

Sean Sullivan
Chicago

My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 09:36 AM
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#101. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 98


Petersburg, US
          

Hey Andy,

Do you do your own film processing and print making or do you simply drop it by a lab, and let some kid, who knows nothing about photography, process it through an automated processing machine by pushing some buttons? Afterall, it is the machine that does the job at guessing how the negative should be printed. It is a machine that analyses that negative. Talk about simple! You don't even have to press the button to get your photographs! You just need to hand over your credit card.

I find a lot of hypocrisy going on in this thread as well as many other threads in the past. There are people who have minimized the skill that is involved when it comes digital processing to such a degree that is has been stated that no skill is needed at all (i.e you just need to buy software and push a button). These same people seem to think that film processing is more pure. What gets to me, I wonder how many of these people who make such silly statements have actually been in a darkroom beyond perhaps taking a class they may have taken at the local community college. Heck, I suspect that there are many who even haven't taken the time to take a class. How many people who are so dismissive with regards to digital processing and print making do their own print making from their negatives?

Now how much photographic skill does it take to hand that roll of film over the counter to get it processed by a kid pushing buttons on a machine? Now I was raised in the photographic world that a "pure" photographer, did his/her own print making.

How can someone be so arrogant to be dismissive of digital processing and print making who don't do their own film processing and print making. It really can be said that one who processes his/her own digital files and do their own print making is more of a pure photographer then one who simply shoots film and drops their film off at a lab. I know that processing your own digital files and doing your own print making takes far more skill then simply dropping off a roll of film to the local Walmart. It is not like that Walmart employee who processes the film needs skills beyond pushing buttons to process that roll of film.

There is too much hypocrisy that goes on within these forums.



Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 03:42 PM
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#106. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 101


marina del rey, US
          

>Now how much photographic skill does it take to hand that
>roll of film over the counter to get it processed by a kid
>pushing buttons on a machine?
>How can someone be so arrogant to be dismissive of digital
>processing and print making who don't do their own film
>processing and print making.
>There is too much hypocrisy that goes on within these
>forums.

Yo Mel,

it is sad to think that it is OK for you to cast doubt upon, and attempt to impugn the character and veracity of someone who you know not at all. Isn't that hypocracy?

If you are interested at all in facts upon which you can make knowledgeable judgements, perhaps you will be amused by my darkroom project post in our B&W film forum.

And if you would care to ground yourself in reality for just a moment, consider this: If you were to present your CF card, and I were to present my roll or sheet film, to a lab or printer for the prints we needed, there would have been no image manipulation involved. It is ONLY the computer effort your images require (to make them acceptable to you) which places them under the heading digital art. It is this manipulation (which modifies the original image) that sets it apart--not the printing.

If we are to compare our images, let it be on a level playing field.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 06:41 PM
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#109. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 106


Petersburg, US
          

Andy,

I did not assume whether you do your own darkroom work or not and that is why I asked the question. I did look in your profile and it did state that you do not process your film. Now going to the thread you referred me to, I must say that I am impressed by what you are setting up. That said, I still have no indication what your actual experience is in the darkroom.

I made general statements later on in the post and if you took that as being directly pointed at you then I apologize. I have been around film purists and seen them on here that have no darkroom experience and those experiences are what drove the rest of what I had posted.

Getting back to your premise of use delivering negatives or files to a lab. First of all, I would not present neither my negatives nor my CF cards to a lab. Why? Because I do not want another person or a machine deciding the final look of my prints. I have found no one that can print my B&W negatives better then I can. Sure, there are probably better printers out there but I have yet found one that I would turn over my rolls of film over to. Actually I had always thought I was better in the darkroom then behind the camera. You could not take Ansel Adams' negatives to a lab and have them come out the same as if he printed them.

Generally I do absolutely nothing different when processing a negative/transparency into a print then an image file into a print. I control contrast/color and do some dodging and burning. On a conceptual and practical basis, my actions are the same with regards to the image. I simply do not understand your thought process.

You speak of me casting "doubt upon, and attempt to impugn the character" of you. Well in your writings, you have "impugn" digital photographers by the following statements:

"Do you expect adoration for the push of the button, or for writing the check to buy the software?"

"One relies solely upon the skill of the photographer in his darkroom.

The other relies on the efforts of a team of computer programmers who created the software which is actually doing the work."

These statements are ridiculous and condescending on so many levels and smacks of someone who do not have a great deal experience in neither film nor digital. I can only go by what you write.

I have to disagree with your statement

"Photography "as we knew it" has changed."

on so many levels whether conceptually and practically so we will just have to agree to disagree.

None of this is coming from a digital zealot defensive on how I shoot because simply put, I don't care what other people think. That said, I cannot let general statements like you have made just float on by.

This is coming from someone who know the fundlementals of "photography" and have a great deal of experience with both medias from shooting to processing whether I am shooting film (35mm, 6x6/6x7cm, 4x5 and 5x7) to digital. None of this is coming to someone who caught the photography craze because of digital. While you do not see me hanging out in the film types of forums, I do shoot both.

I simply do not understand the marginalization of digital photography and processing that has been expressed in this thread. It smacks of simple ignorance.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 07:46 PM
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#112. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 109


marina del rey, US
          

>I must
>say that I am impressed by what you are setting up. That
>said, I still have no indication what your actual experience
>is in the darkroom.

Yo Mel,

thank you for your positive comment regarding my darkroom project, which is my passion (well, one of them anyway). While I have developed and printed my own 4X5 B&W, I (at 64) am a beginning darkroom tech. My level of experience there should not prohibit my opinion.

> I have been around film purists

God! Is that what I am? I always thought I was simply allergic to digital photography.

>Getting back to your premise of use delivering negatives or
>files to a lab. First of all, I would not present neither
>my negatives nor my CF cards to a lab. Why? Because I do
>not want another person or a machine deciding the final look
>of my prints. I have found no one that can print my B&W
>negatives better then I can. Sure, there are probably
>better printers out there but I have yet found one that I
>would turn over my rolls of film over to. Actually I had
>always thought I was better in the darkroom then behind the
>camera.

You have just hinted at the underlying problem (re: photo/art) in our discussion. Let us please consider this (original) question WITHOUT PRINTING. Let us suppose, just for this example, that all we want is a digital file to post here on Nikonians, so that you and I can compare our own work, and poke fun at each other. Shall we agree that we have no business comparing an as-produced-by-the-camera, un-retouched, entirely manipulation-free image (a digital facsimile of my transparency film frame) with a (possibly) highly manipulated digital image? One which might have had hours of post processing? In order to distinguish between these two entirely different classes of images, I have chosen to call the original a photo, and the other a digital artwork (manipulation, fabrication..)

>in your writings, you have
>"impugn" digital photographers by the following statements:
>
>"Do you expect adoration for the push of the button, or for
>writing the check to buy the software?"
>
>"One relies solely upon the skill of the photographer in his
>darkroom.
>
>The other relies on the efforts of a team of computer
>programmers who created the software which is actually doing
>the work."

Please remember, when quoting out of context, that you may introduce inaccuracy. I had tried to make clear I was "oversimplifying". My obvious point went towards the inappropriateness of comparing the manipulated with the out-of-camera images, regardless of how much time went into the manipulation.

>I simply do not understand the marginalization of digital
>photography and processing that has been expressed in this
>thread. It smacks of simple ignorance.

Oh. I thought it was semantics.

You needn't agree (but I secretly think you will feel some grudging acknowledgement of the practicality) that we must have a convenient pair of terms to differentiate between the un-retouched image on my transparency film, and the massively-manipulated (at one extreme) work of some computer expert (not necessarily yourself).

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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MelT Registered since 06th Jul 2002Fri 02-Nov-07 09:38 PM
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#114. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 112


Petersburg, US
          

>While I have developed and printed my own 4X5 B&W, I (at 64)
>am a beginning darkroom tech. My level of experience there
>should not prohibit my opinion.

Andy,

This is the last post I will make in this thread. I wish you well in your journey of the wet darkroom. It can be an exciting one yet frustrating at times trying to produce the results you desire but you know what? This is certainly not any different then when one starts out in the digital processing and printing world. Results with either do not come overnight but once they start coming, the rewards of having complete control over the finished print is well worth any frustrations.

I just want to tell you to not be surprised if your opinion should change with regards to processing as your experience grows in the darkroom. You may actually start to understand what others and I have tried to express in this thread.


Mel

An Opinionated Old Curmudgeon from Virginia



Website - www.meltalley.com
Blog - http://blog.meltalley.com
Facebook - www.facebook.com/mel.talley
Twitter - @meltalley

  

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yo_andrew Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jan 2006Sat 03-Nov-07 01:56 AM
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#115. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 114


marina del rey, US
          

>I wish
>you well in your journey of the wet darkroom..
>
>I just want to tell you to not be surprised if your opinion
>should change with regards to processing as your experience
>grows in the darkroom. You may actually start to understand
>what others and I have tried to express in this thread.

Yo Mel,

thank you for your good wishes.

If my opinion does not change somehow, I will have learned nothing.

Currently most of my photography is color transparency, so most of my printing is done digitally, using an 8-color inkjet printer (Canon ip8500), after scanning using a Konica Minolta 5400II. Exceptional transparencies are printed by a great local lab, Weldon Color Lab, highly recommended (L.A. area).

My darkroom project dovetails with my B&W photography, as I am content with my present scenario regarding transparencies, and may never even attempt to print these myself. The B&W, on the other hand, to which one of your comments alluded, must be more under the control of the photographer. And by so doing, present a very special bonus thrill of having created the whole thing oneself--something I KNOW you have experienced. My interests lie more along the lines of wet print fine art, in formats from 35mm to 4"X5".

You might say I already understand what others have tried to convey regarding their concerns about nomenclature and semantics. We ARE all photographers, after all. And mine is niether an attempt to get everyone else to think like I do, nor to pigeonhole an entire body of photography-related skills, but to showcase the importance of a framework, within which we can fairly compare our work.

best, andy

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves.

"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

  

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MotoMannequin Moderator Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Nikonian since 11th Jan 2006Fri 02-Nov-07 05:05 AM
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#100. "RE: Photography versus Digital Art"
In response to Reply # 97


Livermore, CA, US
          

>> Do you expect adoration for the push of the button, or for writing the check to buy the software?
>
>I think this is a pretty insulting and demeaning comment.
>

Agreed. The concept that a blind person could make a great photo by pushing a button in Photoshop, due to the talent of the Adobe programmers, is... desperate. I guess that's as polite a word as we'd use in this forum.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery
New: My website is live! www.tempered-light.com

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

  

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