Fellow nikonians,
Sorry if this issue was previously discused.
I own the Nikkor zoom 80-200 mm f2.8D and I was wondering if this lens could be used in macro photography, so that to take shots for instance to flowers and brids with a 1:1 magnification, something like the telephoto micro nikkor 105 mm f2.8D. If this is possible, I'd like to know which extension tube or ring is the case, and the pros and cons of this "cheaper" solution.
Many thanks in advance,
Sincerely,
Jose A. Basbus

Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

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Jose,
Take a look at the post "Macro Lense Advice" in this forum. I have
posted a few pic's using my 80-200 AFD with a Canon 500D close up lense (77mm).

Rick

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Rick, I appreciate your quick response. I have been browsing the topics on this issue and found that there are two "cheaper" ways to get into the macro witthout spending too much: using your Canon 500D and the Kenko extension tubes kit. Do you know which are the difference between them, their pros and cons, the implied compromise to a true macro lens, and, regarding this Canon 500D, which are its disadvantage or precautions to take into account when attempting to shot macro photo?
So far, You seem to be the only one to have shot with the nikkor zoom 80-200 afd. Y further own two zooms: the nikkor 20-35 f2.8 and the sigma 28-105 f2.8/4.
Again, many thanks for your comments.

Jose,
from Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

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Whilst 1:1 is possible my best guess is you would need at least a Nikon PN11 extension tube (manual focus only) or the full set of Kenko tubes to get to 1:1 at the 80mm zoom setting.

Zooms vary a lot in how they magnify on extension tubes - for example the 80-400VR gives a bigger image at the 80mm setting than at 400mm.

You will not get to 1:1 with close up lenses on this zoom.

Bear in mind this lens is designed to be a fast f2.8 so the more you reduce its focus distance the greater the loss of quality will be.
At 1:1 I would expect a noticeable quality drop.

Getting back to the Kenko tubes they do vignette with some long telephotos - I do not know about your lens.

The Kenko tubes work on all lenses, although they only AFS on the F5.
The Canon CU only fits lenses with the same filter thread.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

>Getting back to the Kenko tubes they do vignette with some
>long telephotos - I do not know about your lens.

Does any fellow nikonian know if anybody with the combo: nikkor 80-200 f2.8 and kenko tubes and or CANON 500D have encountered some vignetting between the 80 and 200 mm?

Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
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Hi Jose,

For what it's worth: the largest kenko tube does vignette with my 300 f/4. No such problem with the PN11.

Damien
http://www.tele.ucl.ac.be/PEOPLE/DOUXCHAMPS/photo/photodam.jpg

Damien
A Belgian Nikonian in Japan

Jose
With the 500D on my Nikon 80-200mm/f2.8 AFD I do not lose any F stops.
With Tubes I'm pretty sure you will, plus you will need quite a bit of extension to get 1:1 "as Len stated in his post". Also with the tubes you will have to reposition your camera and re focus evey time you change focal length. With the 500D I position my camera with the zoom set mid range then focus and I can zoom in or out to fame my subject. I use this set up when I'm just out walking around and do not want to carry a regular macro lense. I keep the 500D in my pocket and when I come across Flowers, butterfly's, ect. I just screw in on and I'm all set. It works well....but if you want to shoot small insects get a true Macro Lense.

Rick

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>With the 500D on my Nikon 80-200mm/f2.8 AFD I do not lose
>any F stops.

Yes and no!

You do not loose any shutter speed time or screen brightness with a close up lens but you do loose depth of field compared to tubes.

If you want identical dof with the CU you need a smaller aperture and end up with the same shutter time as with tubes.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

Fellow nikonians: very interesting your comments.
I put the same post -by mail- to a B&H assistant and he answered: "usually that type of zoom (nikkor 80-200 f2.8) is a 1:4 or 1:5 macro ratio, meaning its 4 or 5 times smaller than life size. A converter will get it to 2 times but the image will degrade. A true macro is a 1 to 1 life size".

Have you encountered this problem with the Canon 500D?. And, according to what you say, the advantage of the kenko tubes as to the Canon 500D would, so far, be: the better DOF vis-a-vis the easier way to autofocus of the latter.
Many thanks for your opinions,

Jose, from Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

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Rick: I have been browsing on the internet the closeup in nature of John Shaw but I found that there are other books of him regarding landscapes that include macro photography

For instance: there are this books:

1) John Shaw's Landscape Photography
2) John Shaw's Nature Photography Field Guide
3)John Shaw's Focus on Nature.
4) John Shaw's Close-ups in Nature Photography
5) John Shaw's Business of Nature Photography

As I intend to shoot landscapes, Have you read all or some of these books?. Do you know which are the difference among them?. I am planing to order number 4) (the one you have recommended me to read) but I was wondering if i should buy another or others of these books.
Many thank for your comment.

Jose, from Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

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Jose
Number 2 "Nature Photography Field Guide" Covers Close up Photography and Landscapes. If you can get this one there would be no need for the Close-ups in Nature. Number 2 is more recent and covers all the important aspects of Number 4. I have both and always find myself picking up the Nature Photography Field Guide anytime I have a question.

Have a Good Day
Rick

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>Jose
>Number 2 "Nature Photography Field Guide" Covers Close up
>Photography and Landscapes. If you can get this one there
>would be no need for the Close-ups in Nature.

Rick: many thanks for your help. I will order only this book and save money. I am also ordering the Canon 500D closeup, instead of the extension tubes. Is that ok or should I buy both means of magnification?
another question: as I am going to shoot whithin 18 days, I'd like to see if I should take the chance of adding some filters for slide and black and white. My current set of filters are:

1) Hoya (MC) UV,
2) Hoya MC Circular Polarizer
3) Tiffen rectangular ND neutral density 0.6 for Cokin P holder.

I have recently bought on the internet and not received yet:

1) Hoya MC 25 red for b&w (landscapes and portraits).
2) Hoya MC 80 A.
3) Hoya MC 81 A .
4) Tiffen ND 0.3, for Cokin P holder.

What sort of filters should I add for both type of shooting? Or there is no need in doing so?
Again, many thanks for your assistance.

Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

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Jose,
I would just order the 500D for now. Once you receive and read the Nature Photography Field Guide You will be able to decide which way you will want to go as far as Lenses, Tubes, Filters, ect....

I really can't advice on Filters, I only shoot color Slides or Prints. All I ever use are the UV filters to protect the lens and Circular Polarizer's. "John Shaw" has some words of wisdom on filters in this book. You should also be able to pick up some info on the Filters/Lens Stuff forum.

On another note....I have my Camera and a few lenses packed....just waiting for my departure this weekend. I hope I get a chance to shoot some nice Sunrises and Sunsets over in Kuwait. I doubt I will be able to post any since I won't have a scanner. Maybe the Post Exchange
will be able to offer a photo CD when I take my Neg's in to get proccessed. At least I will still have access to the "Net" so I'll be able to log in to Nikonian's and see whats going on.


Good Luck with the 500

Later
Rick

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Jose
The bottom line on tubes or close up lenses, is they allow you to focus closer to the subject. My 80-200mm AFD will focus at approximately five feet by its self. With the 500D I can get as close as twenty some inches which will give me close to 1:2 magnification. Add enough tubes and you can get 1:2 or even 1:1. With a 200mm lens you would have to add 200mm of extension to get 1:1. I wouldn’t want to me hauling that around in the field. It’s a “Compromise” I went with the close up lens because all I have to do is screw it on like a filter. If I went with tubes I would have to remove the lens add the tubes and attach the lens. Then if I wanted to shoot a landscape or wildlife shot I would have to be taking everything apart again. I also carry a Kenko Pro 300 2X Tele Converter. When I have that attached to my camera with the 80-200mm I get pretty close to 1:1 at the long end. Of course I lose DOF and the images may be a little soft at the edges. However John Shaw uses these techniques and has published full page spreads of the images taken with close up lenses and extension tubes. Heck, I can’t even shine his shoes, so if there good enough for Him, who am I to complain. Like I said it’s a Compromise. If you could, get a copy of John Shaws “ Closeups in Nature “ Be warned Macro Photography is addictive, Once you shoot “That first Bug” the Bug will bite you.
Rick

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Rick : thank you a lot for this review of your closeup lens.
Let me ask you some questions: Have you used handheld your Canon 500D with your nikon 80-200 f2.8, and if so, which ISO in slide? Have you attempted to shooting with fuji velvia and this combo plus your x2 teleconverter?. I Think that tripod is a must in this case. I have a slik carbon fiber one plus a bogen pan tilt head 3030. SHould I need a rail to focus well?
I do not have your kenko Pro 300 2X Tele Converter, but the Tamron one (I think both are the same), so the CAnon 500D should fit well to add more magnification with the 80-200 f2.8.
Finally, since I am writing from Punta Arenas,Chile, nearly the "world's end", too far from civilization, is there any info on the internet to read something about "John Shaws “ Closeups in Nature"?
Many thanks again,
sincerely,
Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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Jose
Yes I have handheld my 80-200 with the 500D. I was useing Fuji Provia 400 ISO slide film. When I use the 2X teleconvertor with this combo I always use a tripod weather I'm useing Fuji Provia 400 and especially if I'm useing Velvia ISO 50 or 100. You will lose two stops as soon as you snap the teleconvertor on and to get decent depth of field you will have to stop down more. Your Tripod and Head will do fine. You will not need a focusing rail just move you tripod untill you obtain focus. I only use the rail when I'm above 1:1. As far as John Shaw's book you can order it from www.amazon.com also check out the literature/book reviews on this (Wonderfull Nikionian Site) You should be able to mail order it from somewhere on the net. Let me know how you make out. I highly recommend this book. If you can't get it I will send you mine It's a little beat up but I can easily get another. I'll be leaving the USA in abot 10 days so let me know.

Rick

PS: I hear the Flyfishing for Trout is Outstanding in Chilie

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Rick: many thanks for your comment. I will try this book in Amazon.com and I will tell you later on. I cannot buy books in Nikonians store because no credit card outside the U.S. is accepted. Mine if from a Bank of Chile. You are living the U.S. in 10 days, where are you going to?
AS to trout, you are wright. IN Chile, as well as in Argentina (where Iam from) there are plenty places to try flyfishing. However, this region is outstanding also in landscapes, for you are at 500 km from the imponent "MOunt Fitz Roy" and "Cerro Torre", the latter very well know worldwide as to be the most difficult mountain in the world to get to the summit!. Take a look at www.elchalten.com and I also have some photos on the net (not slide) in: www.ar.photos.yahoo.com/jabasbus
I invite you to visit this place. It is really worhwile. Come to visit me whenever you want.

Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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I will be going to Kuwait for 6 months. I am not in the military. I work for the Federal Gov. I get to travel quite a bit. I've been to Egypt,Hungry,Bosnia and Kosovo. I could not access your web site but I did take a look at the first link you posted. You live in a beautiful part of the world. Thanks for the offer to visit. Who knows maybe some day I will get a chance. If you see a guy running around your neigborhood with a F5 in one hand and a Flyrod in the other it will be me.

Rick

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Rick: good luck in Kuwait. You are so lucky to have visited those places mentioned in your last post.
Those shots put in internet (album under construction) are on: http://ar.photos.yahoo.com/jabasbus
I'm going to browse this book on the web and I'll tell you if I could order.
Thanks again,
Jose

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>I own the Nikkor zoom 80-200 mm f2.8D and I was wondering if
>this lens could be used in macro photography, so that to
>take shots for instance to flowers and brids with a 1:1
>magnification

Hi Jose

It´s very close to possible - I have the 80-200 AFS and use it together with a 1,4 converter (Sigma) and the Nikon set of extensionring - the pk11a, pk12 and pk13.

Instead of 36mm I can see 41mm when focused as close as possible - and the quality is quit impressive - I would like to show a detailed scan if anybody is interessted.

You can se a small version of an image made with the above mentioned at www.naturfotografi.dk/kgalclose.htm.

Kim Jeppesen
www.naturfotografi.dk

Hi Kim:

>You can se a small version of an image made with the above
>mentioned at www.naturfotografi.dk/kgalclose.htm.

Many thanks for your comment. I have visited your website and saw the macro shot with that combo and the 80-200 afs f2.8. Very impressive indeed.
After reading all the comments I have made up my mind and ordered the Canon 500D closeup lens. I have also in my bag a Tamron ext.tube 2x and I was trying them with my nikkon 80-200 afd f2.8, and everything seems to have worked well.
I took the shot with fuji velvia but I will have to wait until shooting the entire roll to see the results.
Furthermore, I have ordered the "John Shaw Nature Phot. Field Guide" which I am reading now.
Any other comment on this issue will be greatly appreciated.

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Any other comment on this issue will be greatly appreciated.

Hi Jose

I have the B+W NL5 - a 77mm close-up lens and I have made a few good shot with the 5NL and the 80-200 - but imho most images lacks sharpness in the corners and the colors near the edges seems to be spoiled

I hope for you that the Canon is better

Kim Jeppesen
www.naturfotografi.dk

Hi Kim:

>I have the B+W NL5 - a 77mm close-up lens and I have made a
>few good shot with the 5NL and the 80-200 - but imho most
>images lacks sharpness in the corners and the colors near
>the edges seems to be spoiled

I have never experienced any closeup lens, nor the one you have, but I am eager to know the results of the shots I have taken. However, as it was posted previously, also the Canon 500D have many problems in the corners and -in the example given- the bowing of the ruler.
As Rick has previously mentioned in this thread, there is a compromise between a tack sharp image with a true macro lens and that of a close up lens as to the money you spend.


Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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Jose, I am a relative newcomer to this site so my opinion may not weigh as much as others but I have done quite a bit of macro photography work. If you are limiting your macro work to flowers then a diopter would suit you fine. But I would argue against getting the Canon diopter for this lens if you are seriously considering macro photography. A Canon diopter on the 80-200 f/2.8 produces a significant distortion and lack of image sharpness at the corners as evidenced in these shots thanks the generosity of fellow Nikonian RickK, in a related thread:

http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID63/313.html

Notice the significant bowing of the ruler's line at the bottom and also notice how the corners and edges lack in definition compared to the center of the image at highest magnification?

I'm not sure how much the 77mm Canon diopter is but the Vivitar 100 macro lens for $130 would get the results of a true macro lens without this degree of distortion or lack of sharpness at the edges.

Hope this helps,

Kent

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"A poor worker always blames his tools" Anonymous

Kent: many thanks for your comment.

If you are limiting your macro
>work to flowers then a diopter would suit you fine.

Like you, I am a very begginer in macro photo and my intentions -as for now- is to take shots of flowers.

But I
>would argue against getting the Canon diopter for this lens
>if you are seriously considering macro photography. A Canon
>diopter on the 80-200 f/2.8 produces a significant
>distortion and lack of image sharpness at the corners as
>evidenced in these shots thanks the generosity of fellow
>Nikonian RickK, in a related thread:
>
>http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID63/313.html
>
>Notice the significant bowing of the ruler's line at the
>bottom and also notice how the corners and edges lack in
>definition compared to the center of the image at highest
>magnification?

Yes, you are right, but the fact is that I have already purchased that Canon closeup lens. However, I want to practice more and to decide whether to buy a true macro lens afterwards. I think that this closeup lens is very well suited for this beggining experience.


>I'm not sure how much the 77mm Canon diopter is but the
>Vivitar 100 macro lens for $130 would get the results of a
>true macro lens without this degree of distortion or lack of
>sharpness at the edges.

I paid nearly $ 135 for this lens in B&h store by ordering it on the web.

>Hope this helps,
>
yes, it definitely helps.

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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Jose,

I am sort of new to this site but not new to macro photography. I used to do it as part of my work in forensics several years back. I continue with macro photography now as a hobby with my most favorite lens ever, the 70-180 micro nikkor.

The diopter is a great way to enter in macro photography and a produces fine flower shots. In one of John Shaw's books he mentions using a diopter on a zoom to get a cover shot of a flower for a famous nature magazine.

Happy shooting,

Kent

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"A poor worker always blames his tools" Anonymous

Ken: thanks for your help. If you have any tips on how to focus flowers with the combo: nikkor 80-200 f2.8 plus a Canon 500D closeup lens and/or my tamron 300 plus 2x teleconverter, will be greatly appreciated.
AS to John Shaw's books, RIck told me that buying the Nature Field Guide would be enough than buying also his "close up on nature", regarding macro photography. Have you ever read both books? What do you think about buying this second book given that I am a begginer in this field?
Thanks again

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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Jose,

I'd recommend getting all of John Shaw's books. I either bought them or got them from the library, but I read them all. He is not only a great nature photographer but he also writes well and uses easy to follow examples.

Always use a tripod if you can. If you will be shooting at slow shutter speeds such as may be the case with the best flower film available, Velvia, then you may choose to shoot with your FM2n instead of the F100 since the FM2n has mirror lockup. When I had an N90s, I always shot my closeup work with an FE-2 for that very reason.

I almost always shoot with reflectors of some sort. Sometimes it can even be a piece of white paper, anything to bounce additional light onto the flower to eliminate shadows. Also, use a complimentary color background.

Some people like to use flash with a slow film and shoot with a small aperature at fast shutter speeds. This gives you a flower with a dark to black background which is nice but can be overused. I prefer a gentle pastel colored background that nicely compliments the flower.


If you shoot outdoors you may have to shoot with a faster film to compensate for a gentle movement. If you are shooting outdoors on a cold morning, don't get too close to the flowers as your body heat will make the flowers move a bit. If you shoot outdoors try to capture the flower's "environment" a bit for a more interesting composition.

Shoot at a small enough aperature to get all the flower in focus but not so small that the background becomes too distracting.

Recommended: Superia Reala 100 instead of Superia 100. Velvia 50 or 100 instead of Ektachrome. 400 Superia for negative or 400 Provia for slide. Try a warming filter, A2, on your Nikkors.


There are alot more tricks that you will get from John Shaw and others on this site, I'm sure.

Think before you shoot and try to visualize what you want.

Kent

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"A poor worker always blames his tools" Anonymous

Kent:


>Always use a tripod if you can. If you will be shooting at
>slow shutter speeds such as may be the case with the best
>flower film available, Velvia, then you may choose to shoot
>with your FM2n instead of the F100 since the FM2n has mirror
>lockup.

I have a Slick pro 804CF Carbon Fiber with a Bogen pan tilt head 3030. I know that the head is not as fast as I wish but I use it anyway. AS to the FM2n, I was happy to discover this added feature, the mirror lockup but I think this is only available when you trip the shutter by the lever timer not buy the cable in the shutter buttom. Is that right?

>I almost always shoot with reflectors of some sort.
>Sometimes it can even be a piece of white paper, anything to
>bounce additional light onto the flower to eliminate
>shadows. Also, use a complimentary color background.

I will take into account this tip.

>Recommended: Superia Reala 100 instead of Superia 100.
>Velvia 50 or 100 instead of Ektachrome. 400 Superia for
>negative or 400 Provia for slide. Try a warming filter, A2,
>on your Nikkors.

I own both yhe 81A and 81B. Any suggestions about both filters will be much appreciated.

Thanks for this tip. However, I have already ordered on the internet both Fuji Velvia ISO 50 and Kodak ELite ISO 100, and I will be shotting these slides for this time. On the next purchase, I will take into account your suggestions, but, for the time being, any comment on these two tipes of slides for macro?

Again, many help for your help. I am learning a lot and be very happy for the whole nikonians guidance.

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina

Jose, nikonian
from Santiago del Estero, Argentina
http://joseandresbasbus.zenfolio.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>
AS to the FM2n, I was happy to discover
>this added feature, the mirror lockup but I think this is
>only available when you trip the shutter by the lever timer
>not buy the cable in the shutter buttom. Is that right?

Yes, the FM2n's mirror locks up only when you use the timer lever. It eliminates the need for a shutter release cable. It isn't as convenient as having a dedicated Mirror lockup switch but it works for me.
>

>I own both yhe 81A and 81B. Any suggestions about both
>filters will be much appreciated.

The 81A is the A2 which is if I am not mistaken is only slightly warm as compared to the 81B which I think is too warm. Some landscape photographers always keep an 81A on their lens. In fact, if you go to Moose Peterson's site you will see he sells a Polarizer-81A filter combination. I haven't used that combo but point is, 81A is a good filter to have to take the slight bluish colorcast that a Nikkor sometimes gives. If you shoot with Sigma lenses you may notice that they provide a slight yellow colorcast so an 81A would not be needed with Sigmas lenses. You will need to experiment to see what works best for you.

-
>
>Thanks for this tip. However, I have already ordered on the
>internet both Fuji Velvia ISO 50 and Kodak ELite ISO 100,
>and I will be shotting these slides for this time. On the
>next purchase, I will take into account your suggestions,
>but, for the time being, any comment on these two tipes of
>slides for macro?

I prefer Velvia 50 over any other slide for landscape work because I think it is the best and sharpest slide film available for nature and landscape work. It makes a blue sky bluer and greens greener and everything is just so crystal clear. I haven't shot much with Ektachrome Elite but I know I don't like the punchy colors of the Elite Plus. Again, you will need to experiment and John Shaw's books will help here. Also, John Shaw shows you how to calibrate your meter to your particular needs.
>
Hope this helps,

Kent

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"A poor worker always blames his tools" Anonymous