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Subject: "For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?" Previous topic | Next topic
Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 21-Apr-13 02:28 AM
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"For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
Sun 21-Apr-13 02:45 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

OK, (Mods, is this is in the wrong forum, please excuse, my questions are specific to this genre, and may be overlooked if in Lenses)

Cruising the gear lists of some of y'all (I learned that word working in Nashville) there are occasional listings of using PC-E lenses.

The work I've seen on commercial sites where this type of lens is used is pretty amazing, with the caveat that timing, location, subject matter etc. all dovetail into exposures give or take.

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Learn-And-Explore/Article/h9z7q457/canyon-country-shooting.html

It started for me when my brother and I saw Ansel Adams daughter's exhibit of his personal collection , which was to be replicated only to museums, en toto, or schools, prior to his death. (Monterey, exhibit August 2010).

Looking at the shots (70 plus) my brother, who trained at Art Center, asked me which one I would take if they were giving away a print.

I was enamored with all but did remark that White Sands, everything was in focus, crisp and he said that was because of the large glass negative and the adjustable plane of the lens, plus, he wasn't afraid of shadows.

My brother had the good fortune to attend a workshop of some length with Mr. Adams back in the day so I took it in stride.

Given the acuity, which can be addressed with a PC-E lens (24mm) others have implied as advice to me that:

• Trees and buildings can be straightened or adjusted in post

• That proper measurements in DOF will produce similar range of view (in focus) results

• Carrying COC/DOF chart in the kit solves the issues and is part of the rigor of professional imagery

• Camera placement, will cover most of the perspective issues so a PC-E design is not needed

All well and good however, the pinnacle for me is exemplified in some of the shots in the link, and of course the many legendary takes by Adams and others using wooden large format film (glass negative) or MF film cameras with adjustable lens planes.

I ask the questions rhetorically, and with curiosity.

Isn't a MF usurper like the D800, availed of the distinct advantages which a PC-E lens offers?

Anyone care to chime in?

Thanks,

Rob Manning












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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?
AreBee
21st Apr 2013
1
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Robman3
21st Apr 2013
2
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AreBee
22nd Apr 2013
4
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Robman3
22nd Apr 2013
5
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ericbowles Moderator
22nd Apr 2013
3
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Robman3
22nd Apr 2013
6
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ericbowles Moderator
23rd Apr 2013
11
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walkerr Administrator
22nd Apr 2013
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newbird Silver Member
23rd Apr 2013
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walkerr Administrator
23rd Apr 2013
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Robman3
23rd Apr 2013
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newbird Silver Member
24th Apr 2013
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walkerr Administrator
24th Apr 2013
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Robman3
03rd May 2013
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walkerr Administrator
03rd May 2013
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Robman3
03rd May 2013
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AreBee Registered since 27th Apr 2008Sun 21-Apr-13 11:26 AM
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#1. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 21-Apr-13 12:26 PM by AreBee

Inverness, GB
          

Rob,

>Anyone care to chime in?<

Ansel Adams' photography is considered by many to be exceptional not because he owned an exceptional camera, and/or used exceptional lenses, but because he is considered to have been an exceptional photographer.

>Carrying COC/DOF chart in the kit solves the issues and is part of the rigor of professional imagery<

Maybe in Ansel Adams' day, but not now with the advent of Live View.

>Isn't a MF usurper like the D800, availed of the distinct advantages which a PC-E lens offers?<

The D800/E has not usurped Medium Format photography and PC-E lenses provide less advantage to the D800/E than do lenses mounted on Medium Format technical cameras. The latter provides a greater range of movements, there are more lenses available for which movements can be applied, and the lenses normally are optically superior.

The state of the art resolution for Small (35mm) Format is 36MP. It is 80MP for Medium Format. On this metric alone, why would you ever consider that the D800/E was "a MF usurper"?

Rob
www.robbuckle.co.uk

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 21-Apr-13 11:55 PM
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#2. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 1
Mon 22-Apr-13 07:42 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Rob from Scotland, your panoramas are stunning by the way.

My purpose in this is to ask, and evaluate whether or not using a tilt shift, is an avenue to more exemplary work.

Most, if not all collected art is an amalgam of studied technique, persistent application, timing, (light in the case of imagery) and like it or not, luck, fiat, inspiration or whatever it is called.

The same goes for crafting a song, lyrics, a water color, a play, or a garden.

Recently when I was shooting (D800 video) of a well known painter at a local gallery opening, his answer to the owner about impetus was a remark about the dreaming (envisioned inspiration) otherwise , he said the painting would be boring.

Makes sense to me, imagery isn't the only creative field I work in.

Sorry about misstating the geometry of the two genres.

My misunderstanding of MF versus standard 35mm FF sensors, was informed by the press and buzz about the D800 competing with the other formats.

There are sensors in MF which have less density, and as noted by you, many others that exceed the build of the Nikon, with both density and sensor dimension, good to know, and is the main reason I visit this site as a tool although your comment did seem just a tad bit perfunctory, so be it.

The question for me is much more pedestrian about effective use of a PC-E lens for landscape, product, and real estate shots. So, do you have any real time experience shooting a PC-E lens, to any advantage, greater or lesser?

Adams, yes, epic photographer and used perhaps too often as a touch stone in reference to the craft, Galen Rowell as well and then there are a couple dozen regulars here on this site, all part of the fabric of creativity.

Despite my less than stellar knowledge of MF, I differ in the statement that Adams was a great photographer simply as that.

He developed creative tools and by example, established (arguably) landscape as the photographic art form it became in the 20th century, a vehicle of appreciation, as a technical art discipline and societal influence.

He did not do it alone and was influenced by his peers, and it is that interaction (the fabric in those accomplishments) and why I occasionally ask stupid questions here, to gain insight.

Also, IMHO (perhaps I'm misunderstanding) assuming that advances alone remove the need for analog tools (laminated DOF cards) is perhaps a stretch as many folks here are somewhat religious about incidence and color meters, DOF charts on their phones.

Yes Ansel Adams had an eye, but he also wasn't using a Brownie after some time regardless of his gift.

To paraphrase Bob Greenburg, the NPS photographer at DVNP and Yellowstone, something he repeats to those attending his photo walks: Some of the best shots he's ever seen, have come from a 2MP POS used by the average park visitor, and, that 2MPs can be blown up into a bill board with the right software.

Thanks for the edification regardless!

Rob Manning







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AreBee Registered since 27th Apr 2008Mon 22-Apr-13 04:01 PM
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#4. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 2


Inverness, GB
          

Rob,

Thank you very much for your compliment.

>My purpose in this is to ask, and evaluate whether or not using a tilt shift, is an avenue to more exemplary work.<

Not every composition lends itself to the use of a tilt/shift lens, though I dare say the lens can always be used in the regular way as a prime lens, albeit an expensive one. Only you can decide if the unique features offered by a tilt/shift lens will enable you to produce "exemplary work". Likewise, only you know your definition of "exemplary".

>My misunderstanding of MF versus standard 35mm FF sensors, was informed by the press and buzz about the D800 competing with the other formats.<

The D800/E has received huge positive coverage, and rightfully so. In terms of performance it is an exceptional camera. However, it does not compete with Medium Format digital. It doesn't compete with mirrorless either. Each is simply an alternative format, with its own strengths and weaknesses.

>The question for me is much more pedestrian about effective use of a PC-E lens for landscape, product, and real estate shots. So, do you have any real time experience shooting a PC-E lens, to any advantage, greater or lesser?<

I have used the 45mm PC-E lens and have previously considered purchasing tilt/shift lenses. However, compositions in many of my images do not lend themselves to tilt, which would be the feature most of interest to me, hence the reason I have not, and likely will not, purchase tilt/shift lenses.

>Adams, yes, epic photographer and used perhaps too often as a touch stone in reference to the craft...<

I agree.

>Despite my less than stellar knowledge of MF, I differ in the statement that Adams was a great photographer simply as that.<

And yet:

>To paraphrase Bob Greenburg, the NPS photographer at DVNP and Yellowstone, something he repeats to those attending his photo walks: Some of the best shots he's ever seen, have come from a 2MP POS used by the average park visitor...<

Does that not tell its own story?

>Yes Ansel Adams had an eye, but he also wasn't using a Brownie after some time regardless of his gift.<

Photographs by Ansel Adams could be reproduced here and the strength of the composition would (or should) be obvious, despite having been displayed as small, compressed jpg files. Reduced to such a small size, it is all but impossible for you to know if a good quality camera/lens was used to capture the image.

I have not claimed that a good quality camera/lens makes no difference. What I am saying is that even the best quality equipment cannot make a compelling photo out of a poor composition.

>Also, IMHO (perhaps I'm misunderstanding) assuming that advances alone remove the need for analog tools (laminated DOF cards) is perhaps a stretch as many folks here are somewhat religious about...DOF charts on their phones.<

If DOF charts work for others then more power to them. That does not alter the fact that with the advent of Live View, they are not required.

Rob
www.robbuckle.co.uk

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 22-Apr-13 10:30 PM
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#5. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 4


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Rob, full circle, exemplary and composition, eye of the beholder, agreed.

Thanks for the help!

RM

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Mon 22-Apr-13 03:44 PM
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#3. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 0


Atlanta, US
          

I'll bite. I was in the Smokies last week and another photographer was photographing foreground trillium with a background redbud tree. He left early before the morning light hit the redbud. But the extreme depth of field involved was perfect for his tilt shift and quite a challenge for me.

I was using a D800E, 24-70 lens at 29mm, and had a tripod. My compromise was to position the foreground trillium at about 6 feet from the camera - which was the hyperfocal distance.

Ideally, I would have moved much closer to the trillium to make them more prominent in the composition. Ideally a subject distance of 2 1/2 to 3 feet would have been much better by increasing the size of the trillium, but I could only achieve adequate DOF with a wider lens that did not keep the redbud as large in the frame. The alternative of a longer lens would have further reduced DOF.

So I would have much preferred to have a good tilt shift lens to my 24-70 for this type of image.

Here's the image.



Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 22-Apr-13 10:36 PM
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#6. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 3


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Great shot Eric regardless.

The other photographer left, so he was happy enough with foreground then, and ceded the spot?

Glad he left then.

Thanks!

RM



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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Tue 23-Apr-13 10:35 AM
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#11. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 6
Tue 23-Apr-13 12:23 PM by walkerr

Atlanta, US
          

Thanks. It's probably just a matter of patience and how much you want to wait for a chance at a specific image.

It was a big area and there were plenty of things to photograph. The other photographers arrived early and had plans to shoot some other areas of the park so they did not want to wait. I saw the potential for side lighting on the redbud and decided to wait and see if the light would materialize. It did within 10 minutes or so and I probably took 20-25 frames as the light quickly changed. It was also my last location of the day so I wanted to enjoy the moment.

There are a number of photographers that use tilt shift lenses in the Smokies. You get a number of scenes with tall trees and extended DOF - both cases where a tilt shift is useful. I think this is a case where personal style and frequent shooting locations would drive the decision. Shooting in places like the Smokies with lots of tall trees or in an urban environment with lots of architectural work would create a greater need for a specialty lens.

Eric Bowles
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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Mon 22-Apr-13 10:51 PM
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#7. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue 23-Apr-13 12:40 PM by walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
          

I've owned the 24mm PC-E and 85mm PC lenses for several years, and the 45mm PC-E for about a year. Over that time, I've used them with my D3X and my D800/D800e bodies. For what you're talking about, they're very helpful. You can certainly achieve a greater degree of sharpness from foreground to background compared with traditional depth of field approaches. Similarly, perspective corrections can be done with less of a loss in quality compared to manipulations in Photoshop, Lightroom or other programs. Keep in mind that traditional DOF approaches are usually based on viewing an 8x10 print from a normal viewing distance (usually equal to the diagonal length of the print) and not 24x36 poster-sized prints.

Whether or not you really need tilt/shift lenses depends on how large you want to print these style of images and how you like to photograph. I personally enjoy working with these lenses and taking the time to get the shot. Others would go crazy with the slight additional set-up time. Keep in mind that there are also ways of stacking images taken at different focused distances to achieve a similar end goal. I don't like shooting that way in comparison with using these lenses, but freely admit it's a personal quirk more than anything else.

Here's a shot made with the D3X and the 24mm PC-E. I stopped down to about f/11, tilted the lens down slightly, and then did a slight upward shift to keep the trees in the background relatively straight. It's hard to tell, but I was exceedingly close to the lupines in the foreground. It prints very nicely at larger sizes, and the sharpness hold well through the image.


Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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newbird Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Apr 2006Tue 23-Apr-13 03:10 AM
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#8. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 7


Neuville, near Quebec City, CA
          

Hi Rick,

You wrote that you "owned" these lenses. Why did you sell them?

Out of the three focal lengths, which one is the most useful one for landscape ? I would assume the 24mm but I may be wrong!

Regarding stacking images, there must be no wind or moving objects in the field of view!

Yvan
Quebec Nikonian
http://yvanbedardphotonature.com

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Tue 23-Apr-13 04:00 AM
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#9. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 8


Colorado Springs, US
          

Using "I've" rather than "I" means I still own them. I use the 24mm the most, but all three get used.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Tue 23-Apr-13 07:38 AM
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#10. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 9
Tue 23-Apr-13 07:39 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Rick, Rob, Eric and Yvan, thanks very much for the overview.

I've still got a mint 24mm on layaway at Samy's but we need to settle the account, and as Rob pointed out that is quite an expense used or not.

Your combined input to me is invaluable, so again many thanks!

Decision time.

Rob Manning




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newbird Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Apr 2006Wed 24-Apr-13 12:34 AM
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#12. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 9


Neuville, near Quebec City, CA
          

Thanks Rick for the clarification... A word-to-word translation in French would have meant that you did own them but don't anymore.

My mistake

These are expensive lenses, but I hope the announced Samyang 24mm tilt and shift will have a good performance. Then it will be tempting.

I already own the Samyang 14mm f/2.8 and it is very sharp which doesn't suffer from flare or coma that much for such an ultrawide angle.

Yvan
Quebec Nikonian
http://yvanbedardphotonature.com

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Wed 24-Apr-13 01:32 AM
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#13. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 12


Colorado Springs, US
          

>Thanks Rick for the clarification... A word-to-word
>translation in French would have meant that you did own them
>but don't anymore.
>

Every language has its idiosyncrasies, and English is one of the worst.

>
>These are expensive lenses, but I hope the announced Samyang
>24mm tilt and shift will have a good performance. Then it will
>be tempting.
>

If it turns out as well as some of their other lenses, it should be very popular.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 03-May-13 05:15 AM
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#14. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 03-May-13 05:18 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

I finally finished paying for the lens.

Rick and Eric, questions as to doing the MOD.

I read an old post about the technical improvements regarding landscape (slight) with issues (vignetting) but wonder if either of you have done the 90 degree rotation so the adjustments are on the same plane?

If that is done, does it then defeat the uses for standard architecture so that one would have to reverse the mod?

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=set_threaded_mode&forum=301&topic_id=5672&prev_page=show_topic&gid=5672#6981

Is the mod ill advised?

Thanks,

Rob

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 03-May-13 09:16 AM
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#15. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 14


Colorado Springs, US
          

All three of my lenses have been modified, and I don't regret doing it. For architecture work (which isn't the primary thing I do), I typically just use the shift function, which still works fine after this modification. For the landscape work, it's nice to have them aligned in the modified configuration.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 03-May-13 06:13 PM
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#16. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 15


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Rick!

Learning curve ahead, should be fun.

Rob

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newbird Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Apr 2006Fri 03-May-13 08:27 PM
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#17. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 16


Neuville, near Quebec City, CA
          

Just saw today that the Rokinon 24mm T&S lens is now in stock in some stores. Price is 1K$. It is not restricted like the Nikon PC-E lens regarding directions for tilting and shifting, so no need for modification (and extra money).

We should now start to see photo samples on the web.

Yvan
Quebec Nikonian
http://yvanbedardphotonature.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sat 04-May-13 07:42 AM
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#18. "RE: For landscapers, PC-E or DOF/COC, D800?"
In response to Reply # 17
Sat 04-May-13 07:43 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Yvan, mine is mint, used but not a scratch or smudge on it.

I opened it up last night, walking through the manual and the left side function has too much resistance, the right side works like butter.

I thought I could work it (stiffness) out but whomever bought it back into stock at the shop, did not do an adequate QC it would seem.

I took it back to Samy's (great staff!) the manager took a look at it and is making it right with Nikon for repair, which is the good part.

I offered to drive it across town (Nikon is now in the Mid Whilshire district of Los Angeles) but he is treating it as an inventory item instead. GREAT SERVICE!

We did cross check that motion against a brand new one, to determine the hiccup.

I was getting a blister last night, and we all agreed it was not 100%.

I paid a bit over $1,000 but yes, Samyang and others do make very fine lenses.

Rob

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