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Subject: "Snowy Female Northern Cardinal" Previous topic | Next topic
jfbacks Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Nov 2006Tue 26-Mar-13 12:02 AM
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"Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"


OFallon, US
          

We had 14 inches of snow yesterday, so I took some shots while watching it come down. Here's a few of a female Northern Cardinal. I'm partially color blind so I'm not sure of the white balance. This is probably a question for another forum but why do images look like they have a different white balance after I make adjustments in Adobe Camera Raw and then open them in Photoshop CS6. It seems like they should look exactly the same when opened from Camera Raw to Photoshop. WTF. Of course they look a little different in Windows photo viewer. I guess it has something to do with color space settings but understanding it is apparently above my pay grade. All images taken with a D300/400mmf3.5 combo.


f8 1/400s iso320


f8 1/320s iso400


f8 1/320s iso400


f8 1/320s iso400

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
HBB Moderator
26th Mar 2013
1
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jfbacks Silver Member
26th Mar 2013
2
     Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
HBB Moderator
26th Mar 2013
4
          Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jfbacks Silver Member
27th Mar 2013
5
               Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
HBB Moderator
27th Mar 2013
6
               Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jfbacks Silver Member
28th Mar 2013
7
                    Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
HBB Moderator
16th Apr 2013
13
                         Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jfbacks Silver Member
17th Apr 2013
14
               Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
coolmom42 Silver Member
28th Mar 2013
8
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
AartPapaya Silver Member
26th Mar 2013
3
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
Lunastar Silver Member
28th Mar 2013
9
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jdroach Platinum Member
31st Mar 2013
10
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BlueSage12
31st Mar 2013
11
Reply message RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal
jot2nik Gold Member
01st Apr 2013
12

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberTue 26-Mar-13 03:45 PM
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#1. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 0


Phoenix, US
          

Jack:

Welcome to Nikonians. I hope your time with us is rewarding.

You have posted a very nice set of images. Your subject was very cooperative.

A few questions:

1) What white balance setting did you use?

2) What was the ambient illumination? Was it constant throughout the series? I assume it was cloudy/overcast if it was snowing, correct?

3) What post processing steps did you perform that might have affected colors? Did you process all images using the same steps and variables?

4) How did you select exposure variables?

5) What colors does your color blindness affect?

Tell us a bit more and we can continue.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

  

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jfbacks Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Nov 2006Tue 26-Mar-13 05:53 PM
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#2. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 1


OFallon, US
          

Thanks for the response Hal.

1) I use auto white balance in camera. I shoot raw and was under the impression that you can change the white balance without penalty. I may be wrong about this.

2) It was snowing pretty hard throughout most of the day so conditions were pretty constant.

3) When I open a raw file with Photoshop, Camera Raw opens first in a window. This is where I make white balance adjustments. I usually make a few other adjustments such as exposure since normally shoot in manual mode. All these images were similar and looked to bluish(cool?). Setting the white balance to cloudy yielded a color temperature of 7000 which looked to warm to me, so I backed it down to 6850 I believe. However when I hit open image in Camera Raw, the resulting image in Photoshop looks different(warmer?).

4) I try to shoot at f8 if at all possible. The 400mmf3.5 is probably sharpest at this aperture and it gives me a little more leeway on focus since it's a manual focus lens. I then set the iso to give me at least a 1/250s shutter speed. I try not to go over iso640 before opening up the aperture.

5) I have a red/green deficiency. Low intensity pinks look grey to me.

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HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberTue 26-Mar-13 07:47 PM
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#4. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 2


Phoenix, US
          

Jack:

Thanks for the update.

Under the auto white balance, what was the "As Shot" white balance figure in the RAW window for the images? Sorry, I failed to ask this in my first set of questions. Senior moment!

If the As Shot white balance figure is less than 7,000 K, moving it to 7,000 K will effectively add red to the image. Backing down from 7,000 K (143 mired) to 6,850 K (146 mired) is only 3 mired, which is considerably less than the 10 mired difference most people can perceive.

Prior to white balance adjustments in RAW window, do all images look about the same? On my calibrated monitor, I see noticeable differences in snow colors, with all of them having an off-white gray cast, and/or a slight pink cast. Red/green stimuli produce amber/reddish-yellow in the average observer. Your red/green deficiency may be why you don't see these slight tan/pink casts, but perceive them as gray.

To check for color casts in areas where your red/green deficiency comes into play, run your cursor over a questionable area (snow, for example) and look at the R, G, B, values in the top of the RAW window, or in the Info window in Photoshop. This will give you a numeric method of checking areas affected by your red/green deficiency.

If all three values are within a few points of each other, the snow color is likely accurate. Fresh, white snow under sunlight should produce RGB values close to 255, +/- a few points (without reaching 255 which is blown out), assuming appropriate exposure and white balance setting. Remember, the reflected light exposure metering in cameras will underexpose bright scenes, like snow and brides white dresses, and will overexpose dark scenes like grooms in black tuxedos. Your images all appear a bit underexposed to me.

Under cloudy, overcast skies, the blue component will likely be higher than red and green, because the color temperature of cloudy day light is bluer.

If one color (red, for example) stands out above the numeric green and blue values, the snow has a reddish cast, which may appear gray to you.

Thanks for posting these wonderful, crisp images, and for discussing your perception of color. I look forward to continuing.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

  

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jfbacks Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Nov 2006Wed 27-Mar-13 01:12 AM
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#5. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 4


OFallon, US
          

Thanks for the feedback Hal. I was at work when I gave you the initial feedback and was going by memory only. I've now had a chance to recheck the original raw files. The in camera auto white balance was between 5850 and 6000 color temperature on all four images.

I was apparently having my own senior moment. Cloudy white balance is 6500 temperature in Camera Raw. I was using Camera Raw auto white balance which yields 7000.

Using the dropper to set the white point on the snow as suggested by Aart yields 6200 and RGB numerical values within 1-2 points in the 225-230 range. I'm posting a reedited image set at 6200. The snow still looks white to grey to me.

All these images were over exposed probably +1-1.5 EV. I look at the histogram and try to get the pixels as far to the right without burning any out.

Do you have any idea why my images look different when I go from Camera Raw to Photoshop? I had my wife look at them and they are definitely darker and she believes slightly warmer looking also. The RGB values of the snow appear to be the same however.


Color temperature 6200

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HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberWed 27-Mar-13 11:25 PM
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#6. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 5
Wed 27-Mar-13 11:32 PM by HBB

Phoenix, US
          

Jack:

This image is an improvement over the first one. The white snow under the bird is RGB = 228, 228, 230, or very close to those values.

The gray background is RGB = 158, 154, 154, or very close to those values.

The image lacks contrast, which is largely due to the soft, diffuse, shadowless illumination. This can be handled in a variety of ways, if desired: setting black and white points with the Levels tool, using the Curves tool with either a preset or custom curve, Highlight/Shadow tool ... I would be tempted to boost the saturation just a bit to bring out the colors in the bird.

I checked a couple RAW images of mine and cannot discern any difference in brightness between the RAW window and Photoshop. They appear much the same. No post processing was done between RAW and Photoshop. I am running PS CS5.

I can only guess at what is occurring on your system.

I discovered some time ago that PS alters the camera's As Shot WB slightly in the RAW window. There isn't much in the literature describing this, but others have observed it.

Since I started using a color temperature meter several years ago, I rarely use Auto, or Preset WB selections. The major exception to this is my night shots with law enforcement agencies, where I may have four or more different color temperature illuminants to deal with. Then, I will use Auto WB, and make sure the subject(s), officers, white motorcycles, white patrol cars, etc., are illuminated with enough SB800 light to appear close to natural. Not always perfect, but I can usually get close enough.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

  

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jfbacks Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Nov 2006Thu 28-Mar-13 12:50 AM
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#7. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 6


OFallon, US
          

Hal:

I did boost the contrast(+9) and saturation(+10) in Camera Raw. I do usually do this for this old lens because it does lack the color saturation of more modern lenses. I may not be the best judge of how much to boost.

I probably should start using custom white balance settings as this would help eliminate some of my color perception problems.

Thanks again for the advice.

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HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberTue 16-Apr-13 10:55 PM
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#13. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 7


Phoenix, US
          

Jack:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you ... I don't know where my days go!

I downloaded one of your images and tinkered with it a bit in PS CS5. I hope you don't mind.

I set the black and white points in the Levels tool; bumped the exposure by + 0.3 stops, the offset by -0.0224, set the gamma to 1.09; set the shadow detail to +4 in the shadows/highlight tool; and a touch of unsharp mask.

Net result of all this is brighter snow, more shadow/feather detail, a bit of increased contrast and saturation, more vivid color, and a greater sense of three dimensional depth, particularly with the snow flakes on the bird's feathers.

Parts of he snow under the bird are blown out, but this could be fixed with a bit more time.

On my recently calibrated monitor, the image leaps off the screen.

A beautiful image that will make a great print.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.


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jfbacks Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Nov 2006Wed 17-Apr-13 10:31 PM
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#14. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 13


OFallon, US
          

Hal,
Thanks for taking the time to tinker with the photo. It certainly makes my images look drab. I really like the high contrast. It does give it a somewhat surrealistic look that makes me conflicted. This isn't what I saw when I took the photo... It's better.

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coolmom42 Silver Member Awarded for her enthusiastic support of the community and exemplifying the Nikonian mission “Share, Learn and Inspire” Nikonian since 30th Nov 2011Thu 28-Mar-13 01:41 AM
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#8. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 5


McEwen, US
          

These images are all excellent. Great sharpness!

Your white balance of 6200 nailed it, to my eye (on my calibrated monitor.)

working on it in Middle TN
Nikon D3100

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AartPapaya Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Oct 2011Tue 26-Mar-13 07:04 PM
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#3. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 0


Hectorspruit, ZA
          

Something I really appreciate is the sharpness of your photos. Thank you for all the extra information you supplied in response to the question from Hal. I am looking forward to his response. When I looked again at your picture, it is maybe a little bit too warm. Your first picture seems to be a bit better.
I pose a question: Using the dropper to set the white point on the snow?

Aart

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Lunastar Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Jan 2010Thu 28-Mar-13 01:57 AM
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#9. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 3


Mankato, US
          

Nice set-I like the second image best!

Mark


www.mercuryoutdoorcommunications.com

  

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jdroach Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded. John exhibits true Nikonian spirit by frequently posting images and requesting comments and critique, which he graciously accepts. He is an inspiration to all of us through constant improvement in his own work, keen observations and excellent commentary on images posted by others. Nikonian since 21st Mar 2009Sun 31-Mar-13 06:42 PM
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#10. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 0


Milwaukee, US
          

Beautiful images!

jdroach, a Milwaukee area and sometimes Chicago area Nikonian.





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BlueSage12 Registered since 11th Feb 2012Sun 31-Mar-13 10:38 PM
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#11. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 0


lady Lake, US
          

Love this with the snow!

  

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jot2nik Gold Member Nikonian since 11th Jul 2007Mon 01-Apr-13 12:44 PM
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#12. "RE: Snowy Female Northern Cardinal"
In response to Reply # 0


Troy, US
          

Jack nice shots, what good contrast and sharp. I love the cards, Go Cards.

John

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