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Subject: "Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?" Previous topic | Next topic
Kropotkin Registered since 02nd Dec 2012Wed 05-Jun-13 04:30 PM
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"Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
Wed 05-Jun-13 05:08 PM by Kropotkin

Bicester, GB
          

Hi

This is (for me at any rate) one of those thorny problems which I can't seem to quite nail.

Let's take a simple case.

The scene combines both outside through an open window and a darker interior. The brightly lit outside is off centre in the frame. The camera is Manual mode. F8 125s. TTL. (SB-910 mounted on camera). This gives me a nice exposure on the sky outside and the interior is well lit.

Now I shoot again with 60s. Everything else the same. Now the outside is over-exposed due to the one stop more of exposure. The interior is lit exactly as before.

Without flash the one stop difference made the interior much lighter. So it looks to me that TTL 'knew' about this and fired less flash. If not the second shot would have a brighter interior. But it cannot know about this from the pre-flash. So, ergo, the TTL system works out what the current camera exposure is and based on that it decides how much to add?

This is the only explanation which fits the facts but does not square with what the manual seems to suggest. (It doesn't mention shutter speed being passed to the flash). Nor with what people say about the shutter speed not mattering with flash.

Sorry; this is one of those tricky, picky, questions but one which I feel I should understand. Can anyone help?


--Justin Wyllie

http://www.justinwylliephotography.com/googleplus
http://www.nelsonphotographic.co.uk

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?
golfercat Silver Member
05th Jun 2013
1
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Arkayem Moderator
05th Jun 2013
2
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FineArtSnaps Silver Member
05th Jun 2013
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gvk Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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FineArtSnaps Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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Arkayem Moderator
06th Jun 2013
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Arkayem Moderator
06th Jun 2013
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FineArtSnaps Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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Arkayem Moderator
06th Jun 2013
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Indigo586
07th Jun 2013
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FineArtSnaps Silver Member
08th Jun 2013
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Arkayem Moderator
08th Jun 2013
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FineArtSnaps Silver Member
09th Jun 2013
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19th Jul 2013
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golfercat Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2012Wed 05-Jun-13 05:22 PM
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#1. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 0


Menifee, US
          

In I-TTL mode the camera controls the flash. It is somewhat like using P mode for stills. The process is automated basically limiting your adjustment to EC. The camera decides the settings based on the pre-flash and the mode the camera is in (PASM). The i-TTL mode is available with the pop-up flash.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberWed 05-Jun-13 09:02 PM
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#2. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 05-Jun-13 09:04 PM by Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>The scene combines both outside through an open window and a
>darker interior. The brightly lit outside is off centre in the
>frame. The camera is Manual mode. F8 125s. TTL. (SB-910
>mounted on camera). This gives me a nice exposure on the sky
>outside and the interior is well lit.
>
>Now I shoot again with 60s. Everything else the same. Now the
>outside is over-exposed due to the one stop more of exposure.
>The interior is lit exactly as before.
>
>Without flash the one stop difference made the interior much
>lighter. So it looks to me that TTL 'knew' about this and
>fired less flash. If not the second shot would have a brighter
>interior. But it cannot know about this from the pre-flash.
>So, ergo, the TTL system works out what the current camera
>exposure is and based on that it decides how much to
>add?

Hi Justin,

Whether the TTL system takes the ambient light into effect or not is dependent on which TTL system you have selected. If you have selected Regular TTL mode, then the flash system does not know anything about the ambient. If you have selected TTL-BL mode, then the flash system does take the ambient into account.

Regular TTL flash is designed to provide all of the light for an exposure. It will flash at the same power, based on the reflected energy of the monitor preflash, regardless of how much ambient light is present. Consequently, Regular TTL flash is normally used in low ambient conditions like indoors under artificial light, and you should use the camera in Manual mode set to underexpose the ambient by at least two stops (-2 ev).

TTL-BL is designed for those cases where the ambient provides most of exposure and the flash provides only supplemental light to lighten the shadows. This is called 'Fill' flash. When using TTL-BL, the camera should be set to expose the ambient normally using Matrix or Center Weighted metering. Usually, camera P mode is the best mode to use, because it sets the ambient exposure correctly faster than you can possibly do it manually, and it avoids the potential overexposure that can happen in camera A mode.

In your case, it sounds like you were using Regular TTL mode, and the flash power was being set by the reflected energy from the wall around the window. You were then changing the ambient contribution to the image with the camera shutter speed. The inside was relatively dark, so the wall area around the window was exposed mostly by the flash with nearly zero ambient contribution. However, the outside was very bright, and being exposed entirely by the camera settings. When you adjusted the shutter, you were adjusting the whole frame, but it was only visible in the bright outdoors area, and you could not see the effect on the indoors low ambient area.

The way I handle this type of shot is with the flash in TTL-BL mode and the camera in P mode with Matrix metering. I usually use ISO 200 when there is a bright window in the image. Then, the camera will set up a proper ambient exposure, and the flash will add enough fill to make the window frame the same brightness as the outdoors.

I have written a lot more detail about this in my blog articles, Start here and read them in order:
http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/2008/01/nikon-flash-two-separate-metering.html

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012Wed 05-Jun-13 10:03 PM
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#3. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 2


Manitou Springs, US
          

That's amazing, Russell. How does the camera know which part of the light coming back during its pre-flash reading is coming from the flash(es) and which part is coming from ambient light? You're saying that somehow, in TTL-BL mode the camera can make that distinction, but can't make it in TTL mode?

Russ Lewis
www.FineArtSnaps.com
www.russ-lewis.com

  

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gvk Silver Member Nikonian since 16th Feb 2006Thu 06-Jun-13 12:02 AM
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#4. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 3
Thu 06-Jun-13 12:04 AM by gvk

Mystic, US
          

It is relatively easy for a meter designed to measure flash to distinguish the pre-flash reading from ambient. Ambient light does not generally have large amplitude changes up and then down on the sub-millisecond time scale. In addition, the camera knows just when to measure the flash, since it syncs the pre-flash to fire just before opening the shutter.

It is not that the camera can't determine ambient exposure in TTL mode. By setting it to TTL mode you are telling it to forget about the ambient exposure reading when determining exposure for the flash. In order to balance ambient and flash exposures properly using TTL (or manual) flash mode, it is up to the photographer to set exposure compensation for ambient and flash, separately. This is generally how I shoot with fill flash, simply because I learned to do it that way long before TTL and TTL-BL were invented, and I prefer to have as much control as possible over the resulting exposure.

Gerry

  

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FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012Thu 06-Jun-13 01:31 AM
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#5. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 4


Manitou Springs, US
          

That's even more interesting, Gerard. I guess, when you talk about setting exposure compensation for ambient and flash, you're talking about first setting camera comp for ambient, then nullifying that change with flash exposure comp before you actually set your final flash exposure comp. I don't know what happens with Canon stuff, but I do know that when you set camera exposure compensation on a Nikon it also compensates flash. Flash comp doesn't affect camera comp, but camera comp affects flash comp. In other words, if you reduce exposure with camera exposure comp, then, to get back to where you started with flash, you need to increase flash exposure comp. I know that because I can see it happening and because Joe McNally makes a very specific point about it in his publications.

From what I've seen and from what I've learned from McNally, I can control ambient light with shutter speed and flash with aperture. McNally can give you some really useful information about how to balance the two using TTL, though he often raises his shutter speed enough to nearly eliminate ambient so he can control the situation with speedlights. I certainly agree that there are times when you need to get away from TTL so you can control the whole situation yourself, but in the vast majority of situations TTL is a terrific time and hassle saver.

I may just be misunderstanding what you and Russell are saying, but from everything I've read, and from my own experience, TTL doesn't eliminate the effect of ambient light.

Russ Lewis
www.FineArtSnaps.com
www.russ-lewis.com

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberThu 06-Jun-13 01:59 AM
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#7. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 5
Thu 06-Jun-13 02:05 AM by Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>That's even more interesting, Gerard. I guess, when you talk
>about setting exposure compensation for ambient and flash,
>you're talking about first setting camera comp for ambient,
>then nullifying that change with flash exposure comp before
>you actually set your final flash exposure comp. I don't know
>what happens with Canon stuff, but I do know that when you set
>camera exposure compensation on a Nikon it also compensates
>flash. Flash comp doesn't affect camera comp, but camera comp
>affects flash comp. In other words, if you reduce exposure
>with camera exposure comp, then, to get back to where you
>started with flash, you need to increase flash exposure comp.
>I know that because I can see it happening and because Joe
>McNally makes a very specific point about it in his
>publications.

You are right. The camera compensation changes both the flash power and the camera exposure by the same amount. The Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) on the back of the flash changes only the flash power.

>From what I've seen and from what I've learned from McNally, I
>can control ambient light with shutter speed and flash with
>aperture. McNally can give you some really useful information
>about how to balance the two using TTL, though he often raises
>his shutter speed enough to nearly eliminate ambient so he can
>control the situation with speedlights. I certainly agree that
>there are times when you need to get away from TTL so you can
>control the whole situation yourself, but in the vast majority
>of situations TTL is a terrific time and hassle saver.

Before TTL-BL was invented, we used to do fill flash using regular TTL. The problem is that Regular TTL flash always adds to the ambient, which will cause overexposure in bright ambient unless you apply negative FEC. That works fine once you figure out how much negative compensation to apply. That usually takes several test shots to figure out. Using TTL-BL gives you a lightning fast way to shoot fill flash in fast-moving situations (bride leaving the church, outdoor receptions in daylight, picnics, etc.)

>I may just be misunderstanding what you and Russell are
>saying, but from everything I've read, and from my own
>experience, TTL doesn't eliminate the effect of ambient
>light.

TTL doesn't eliminate the effect of ambient light. It adds to it. YOU must eliminate the ambient on the SUBJECT. This is why (indoors in low ambient) you should underexpose the ambient by two to three stops using the camera controls. Then, you eliminate (most of) the ambient from the SUBJECT (hopefully still leaving enough ambient to light the background just a bit). I recommend 1/80th shutter for most reception photography, and then adjust the shutter up or down to brighten the background as much as possible without overexposing or messing up the white balance on the subject. This technique allows the flash metering system to handle the entire exposure of the subject, while leaving a slight ambient in the background.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberThu 06-Jun-13 01:46 AM
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#6. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 3


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>That's amazing, Russell. How does the camera know which part
>of the light coming back during its pre-flash reading is
>coming from the flash(es) and which part is coming from
>ambient light? You're saying that somehow, in TTL-BL mode the
>camera can make that distinction, but can't make it in TTL
>mode?

In regular TTL mode, the monitor preflash is an extremely bright pulse when compared to the ambient. It is very very short, but very very bright. It is so bright, in fact, that the ambient has no significant effect on the measurement of the reflected energy from the preflash, and therefore the same flash power is set regardless of the strength of the ambient. This is why Regular TTL works best if you set the camera to underexpose the ambient by two to three stops or risk overexposure and bad white balance.

TTL-BL is by far the most advanced flash mode we have. In TTL-BL mode, the power of the flash is set primarily by the distance to the subject as measured by the D lens, and then it is modified (reduced) based on the measurement of the ambient by the camera's Matrix or Center Weighted light meter. TTL-BL cannot work in Spot metering mode, because the meter must measure an average across the frame in order to determine the strength of the ambient. One more very important point is TTL-BL assumes the camera exposure is set to center the camera's built-in light meter. In other words, the camera must be set to take a proper exposure if the flash were turned off. Then, the TTL-BL algorithm calculates the amount of flash power that is needed to make the subject brightness equal the overall ambient brightness. This is 'Fill Flash'.

It is important to understand that for TTL-BL to work its best, the flash must be pointed directly at the subject. The harsh light doesn't usually cause any problem, because it is only brightening the shadows. However, there is also a button in the head of the flash that is depressed when the standard issue diffuser is installed, to increase the calculated flash power by a calibrated amount. The flash must still be pointed directly at the subject to work well.

If the flash is not pointed at the subject, TTL-BL doesn't work as well, because the distance to the subject is no longer relevant, so the system must revert to using the monitor preflash to determine the flash power before the reduction for the ambient is applied. This doesn't work well when the ambient is very bright, like in sunlight, and incorrect flash power can sometimes be calculated. This is an area where considerable development effort is continuing to make TTL-BL work better in more situations.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012Thu 06-Jun-13 11:45 AM
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#8. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 6


Manitou Springs, US
          

Okay, now I understand what you're saying. You're talking exclusively about on-camera flash. If I use speedlights at all, I'll normally have two or three on light stands and an SU-800 on the camera. Different situation. Thanks for the rundown.

Russ Lewis
www.FineArtSnaps.com
www.russ-lewis.com

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberThu 06-Jun-13 07:11 PM
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#9. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 8


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>Okay, now I understand what you're saying. You're talking
>exclusively about on-camera flash. If I use speedlights at
>all, I'll normally have two or three on light stands and an
>SU-800 on the camera. Different situation. Thanks for the
>rundown.

Yes, I was talking about on-camera flash.

However, off-camera TTL is Regular TTL, so everything I said about that applies. The info about TTL-BL does not apply.

Off-camera TTL is simple as long as the flashes are primary and the shutter is high enough to keep out the ambient, but off-camera Fill flash is quite a bit trickier and takes a lot more experience to get consistently good results. McNally is an expert at this.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Indigo586 Registered since 25th Jan 2013Fri 07-Jun-13 05:54 PM
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#10. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 9
Fri 07-Jun-13 05:59 PM by Indigo586

US
          

It's about how exposures are added specifically ambient and flash. If the indoor is quite dark, several stops under exposed if the flash didn't fire then the resulting exposure is about the same as that of the flash alone.
If the exposure without flash is correct for the interior with the shutter speed at 1/6 then the indoor should be 1 stop overexposed.
If it's 1/30 then only 2/3 stop. If it's 1/15 then only 1/3 stop and if it's 1/8 then only 1/6 stop.

  

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FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012Sat 08-Jun-13 04:53 PM
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#11. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 9


Manitou Springs, US
          

Here are a couple examples of ambient and flash working well together with TTL. The clock was almost workable with ambient alone, but the richness and detail of the wood didn't quite make it. I put an SB910 with its diffuser in place on the stairs. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was dialed down one EV. I used the pop-up on the D800 only to command the SB910.

The still life used three flashes all gelled CTO. There was an SB910 in a 16" Flashpoint Pop Softbox on a lightstand slightly high and to the left, dialed down one EV, an SB700 with a LumiQuest Softbox III on a lightstand slightly above the tabletop to the right, dialed down two EV, and an SB600 in the back corner on the floor on a speedlight stand pointing up, dialed down three EV. SU800 on the D3. (I confess I don't remember for sure the relative strengths I had on the flashes. It was trial and error.) The lamp couldn't do the job by itself but it was important to make it look as if all the light is coming from the lamp.

Sure, it's possible to up the shutter speed and cut out all ambient light, but there are lots of situations where this isn't desirable and isn't necessary. TTL works just fine with a combination of ambient light and flash.






Russ Lewis
www.FineArtSnaps.com
www.russ-lewis.com

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberSat 08-Jun-13 08:30 PM
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#12. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 11


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>Here are a couple examples of ambient and flash working well
>together with TTL. The clock was almost workable with ambient
>alone, but the richness and detail of the wood didn't quite
>make it. I put an SB910 with its diffuser in place on the
>stairs. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was dialed
>down one EV. I used the pop-up on the D800 only to command the
>SB910.
>
>The still life used three flashes all gelled CTO. There was an
>SB910 in a 16" Flashpoint Pop Softbox on a lightstand
>slightly high and to the left, dialed down one EV, an SB700
>with a LumiQuest Softbox III on a lightstand slightly above
>the tabletop to the right, dialed down two EV, and an SB600 in
>the back corner on the floor on a speedlight stand pointing
>up, dialed down three EV. SU800 on the D3. (I confess I don't
>remember for sure the relative strengths I had on the flashes.
>It was trial and error.) The lamp couldn't do the job by
>itself but it was important to make it look as if all the
>light is coming from the lamp.
>
>Sure, it's possible to up the shutter speed and cut out all
>ambient light, but there are lots of situations where this
>isn't desirable and isn't necessary. TTL works just fine with
>a combination of ambient light and flash.

Russ L.

You obviously know what you are doing. I like your second image a lot. The CTO gel works well to match the flash to the tungsten ambient.

My previous comments have been mainly for those who do not fully understand the basic concept of ambient and TTL flash adding together in the final image, and how to control that.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012Sun 09-Jun-13 01:33 AM
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#13. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 12


Manitou Springs, US
          

Thanks, Russell. I like a lot of your work, so that's a serious compliment. Forgot to mention that shutter speed on the clock was 1/8 sec, and on the still life 1/2 sec. I look at the clock picture and think that if I'd raised the shutter speed I might have been able to eliminate the blowout on the window, but the sun was directly on that curtain, so it probably wouldn't have worked. Didn't have time to experiment much. The clock was in a B&B in St. Augustine, and I was afraid somebody would come down the stairs and trip on the speedlight.


Russ Lewis
www.FineArtSnaps.com
www.russ-lewis.com

  

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Vlad_IT Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Sep 2011Fri 19-Jul-13 03:57 AM
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#14. "RE: Does the TTL Flash system know about shutter speed?"
In response to Reply # 13
Fri 19-Jul-13 04:02 AM by Vlad_IT

US
          

About a year ago I spent several nights reading all articles by Russell. since then I feel very comfortable using flash 99% indoors and 30% to 50% outdoors. Just want to take this opportunity and say thanks to Russell again.

Resent shot of my wife combining rainy day light outside with ambient light inside and bounced flash technique in TTL-BL mode



Best regards,
Vlad

  

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