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Subject: "Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when to..." Previous topic | Next topic
justinwyllie3 Registered since 07th Dec 2012Fri 07-Dec-12 01:29 PM
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"Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"


GB
          

Hi

This is the setup:

SB-910 as master. The mode for the master is set to ---.

Sb-600 as slave. Set (Channel 1, Group A) as TTL.

The commander should not contribute to the exposure. It does appear to fire. I was told by Nikon that this was just the pre-flash for communicating with the remote and would not effect the exposure. But this is not the case. I have run some tests and it does effect the exposure.

I have exactly the same problem with a different set up. This one is using the D7000 as commander and the Sb-600 as remote. Again; the D7000 is set to mode ---. Again despite this it contributes to the exposure.

Is Nikon lying or have I done something wrong?

With thanks

--Justin Wyllie

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
gbowen Gold Member
07th Dec 2012
1
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
HBB Moderator
08th Dec 2012
2
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Kropotkin
08th Dec 2012
3
     Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Chris Platt Silver Member
08th Dec 2012
4
     Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
HBB Moderator
08th Dec 2012
5
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Rmastran Silver Member
10th Dec 2012
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Kropotkin
10th Dec 2012
7
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
NenBikonian
12th Dec 2012
8
     Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Kropotkin
12th Dec 2012
9
     Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Rmastran Silver Member
18th Dec 2012
12
          Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
NenBikonian
18th Dec 2012
15
               Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Rmastran Silver Member
19th Dec 2012
16
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Rmastran Silver Member
10th Dec 2012
6
Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Gray_star
18th Dec 2012
10
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Kropotkin
18th Dec 2012
11
     Reply message RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires whe...
Gray_star
18th Dec 2012
13
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gkaiseril Gold Member
18th Dec 2012
14

gbowen Gold Member Nikonian since 31st Mar 2011Fri 07-Dec-12 02:03 PM
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#1. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


Canton, US
          

I have encountered the same thing using my D7000 before I got my SU-800. I took a photo with the remote flash covered so as not to contribute to the light, and you will get an underexposed image showing that the pop up flash does indeed influence the lighting, even set to "--". The easy fix is to get the SG-3IR panel. Not sure what to do about the 910. You can't cover the front or the preflashes will be blocked.

As far as this being an integrity issue with Nikon, I cannot say. But it does seem suspicious.

George

  

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HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberSat 08-Dec-12 01:30 AM
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#2. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


Phoenix, US
          

Justin:

In CLS mode, the on-camera master/commander speedlight will exchange a series of pulses with each remote group prior to shutter opening for exposure calculations. Then, once the shutter is open, it will fire once more, which is a signal to all remote groups to fire in unison for image capture. The image capture pulse is very low power, but will contribute to the exposure if the subject to lens distance is relatively short.

Replacing the on-camera speedlight with an SU-800 as George mentions eliminates the problem as all of its preflash and image capture pulses are in the infrared wavelengths.

Prior to getting my SU800, I removed the IR filter panel from the SG-3IR bracket and taped it over the lens of one of my SB800s which then became the on-camera master/commander. Do not shoot too fast with this configuration, as heat will build up in the flash head and the IR filter panel, and may cause problems.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

  

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Kropotkin Registered since 02nd Dec 2012Sat 08-Dec-12 11:53 AM
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#3. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 2


Bicester, GB
          

Hi HBB

Thanks for this clear explanation.

I'm not 100% sure I understand about taping the panel from the SG-31R over the head of a flash gun. Is this because the panel cuts out the visible light but allows the infra-red light to pass and the remote still picks this up? So same when it is used over a built-in flash?

For reference I asked Nikon about this again and this time they were candid about the image capture pulse. (Possibly the previous answer was by a technician who didn't fully understand the system).

Thanks again

--Justin




  

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Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012Sat 08-Dec-12 12:23 PM
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#4. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 3


Newburg, US
          

>I'm not 100% sure I understand about taping the panel from the
>SG-31R over the head of a flash gun. Is this because the panel
>cuts out the visible light but allows the infra-red light to
>pass and the remote still picks this up? So same when it is
>used over a built-in flash?

Yes.

Visit my gallery.

  

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HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Charter MemberSat 08-Dec-12 05:32 PM
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#5. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 3


Phoenix, US
          

Justin:

Glad I could help.

Yes, the IR panel absorbs the visible portion of the speedlight flash, and passes the IR component, which the remote units are looking for. The absorbed energy is converted to heat, which will melt the panel and possibly the speedlight lens if you are not careful and fire too fast.

The CLS preflash and image capture pulse sequence can seem complicated at first glance. Once the lights come on, it is very logical. For a more complete, illustrated explanation go here.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

  

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Rmastran Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd Nov 2011Mon 10-Dec-12 04:01 AM
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"RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"


Carver, US
          

I have a choice of two things to do on my D7000 to get around this:

1. CUSTOM SETTING MENU ---> d11 Exposure delay mode ---> On ---> OK
It delays the shutter about a second after the mirror is raised. It's intended to reduce vibration; however, in this case, the pre-flash fires when you press the shutter release, but the flash doesn't fire until the shutter is actually released about a second later. This eliminates the effect of the pre-flash.

2. CUSTOM SETTING MENU ---> f3 Assign Fn button ---> FV lock ---> OK
This locks the flash output. The first time you press the Fn button with any flash mounted that supports CLS, including the pop-up flash, a pre-flash will fire. You will see the FV Lock icon (lightning bolt and L) in the viewfinder display. As long as that icon appears, no pre-flash will fire when you press the shutter release. Press the Fn button again to release the FV lock.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Kropotkin Registered since 02nd Dec 2012Mon 10-Dec-12 10:13 AM
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#7. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


Bicester, GB
          

Hi Ralph

Thanks. I prefer the second idea; using flash lock.

Good idea.

--Justin Wyllie

  

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NenBikonian Registered since 30th Sep 2011Wed 12-Dec-12 04:10 PM
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#8. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 12-Dec-12 04:13 PM by NenBikonian

Roswell, US
          

Unfortunately, neither of these will eliminate the "image capture pulse" that Hal (HBB) referenced earlier in his response, they will only eliminate the preflashes. Preflashes do not contribute to exposure - ever. They occur before the shutter is opened. "Image Capture Pulses" fire regardless of how you set D11 or F3 and they occur when the shutter is opened. Fortunately, they don't typically affect exposure, as Hal mentioned, except in the following scenarios:

  • Camera-Subject distance is very short (typical of macro-photography)
  • Elements in the frame are highly reflective (mirrors, heavily varnished wood, metallic objects will show specular reflections of the image capture pulse, even at low power)
  • You are using a combination of exposure elements that amplify the effect of the image capture pulse - in particular, if ambient light is extremely low and you're using a large aperture like f/1.8 or 1.4 AND high ISO, the image capture pulse can make a pretty significant contribution to exposure (especially if this is combined with one or both of the previous scenarios).


Using the SG-3IR, the SU-800 or radio triggers are really the only ways to properly eliminate the effect of the image capture pulse on exposure.

Ben

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Kropotkin Registered since 02nd Dec 2012Wed 12-Dec-12 06:03 PM
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#9. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 8


Bicester, GB
          

Thanks Ben.

That is clear.

I've had some problems when it has contributed. One was 'macro' (photographing a wedding ring at close up) and the other was a group portrait where I was quite close. I didn't notice but a more experienced photographer noticed immediately that there were two light sources in the image.

To be honest I'm saving up for the SU-800. In the meantime I'll just point the SB-910 at the ceiling. The bounce still seems to work to trigger the remotes and it should hardly interfere.

Thanks again

--Justin

  

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Rmastran Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd Nov 2011Tue 18-Dec-12 01:55 PM
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#12. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 8


Carver, US
          

Yes, you are correct. However, method #2 will eliminate it for all subsequent shots following the initial shot with the pulse.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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NenBikonian Registered since 30th Sep 2011Tue 18-Dec-12 08:49 PM
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#15. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 12


Roswell, US
          

Hi Ralph,

I think you're confusing the preflash with the triggering pulse. FV Lock only suppresses the preflash sequence after it has been performed one time. The purpose of FV lock is so that the preflash need only fire once to dtermine the proper flash exposure. Once flash exposure is determined a triggering pulse is still required to fire the remote each and every time you push the shutter and this triggering pulse occurs after the shutter has opened. In CLS/AWS, there is not a configurable option on the camera or on the flash which will enable full-time disengagement of the triggering pulse.

Have a look at Hal's preflash sequence illustrations in one of his anchored threads in this forum. It's a very useful depiction of how this occurs.

Cheers,
Ben

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Rmastran Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd Nov 2011Wed 19-Dec-12 06:31 PM
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#16. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 15


Carver, US
          

Thank you for the clarification, Ben. I was indeed confusing the two.

Ralph

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Rmastran Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd Nov 2011Mon 10-Dec-12 04:01 AM
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#6. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


Carver, US
          

I have a choice of two things to do on my D7000 to get around this:

1. CUSTOM SETTING MENU ---> d11 Exposure delay mode ---> On ---> OK
It delays the shutter about a second after the mirror is raised. It's intended to reduce vibration; however, in this case, the pre-flash fires when you press the shutter release, but the flash doesn't fire until the shutter is actually released about a second later. This eliminates the effect of the pre-flash.

2. CUSTOM SETTING MENU ---> f3 Assign Fn button ---> FV lock ---> OK
This locks the flash output. The first time you press the Fn button with any flash mounted that supports CLS, including the pop-up flash, a pre-flash will fire. You will see the FV Lock icon (lightning bolt and L) in the viewfinder display. As long as that icon appears, no pre-flash will fire when you press the shutter release. Press the Fn button again to release the FV lock.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Gray_star Registered since 17th Dec 2012Tue 18-Dec-12 07:28 AM
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#10. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          


>The commander should not contribute to the exposure.
>I have run some tests and it does effect the exposure.

As others have noted, the light you see is the "go" signal that gets fired after the shutter has fully opened. Normally, this signal isn't a problem. However, if you shoot at ISO levels higher than base, then the light gets amplified and it can become a problem. Also, even at base ISO, glass items will show reflections and it will be impossible to properly photograph certain common product-photography setups such as side lighting on wine bottles.

As mentioned, there's the IR panel, which is inexpensive, but I've heard that even with the panel, some light can get through. The SU-800 is the ideal solution but it's expensive. There's one other solution to try. If your lighting setup allows it, try using Auto FP. The Nikon AWL system works with Auto FP, and with Auto FP, the "go" signal comes before the shutter opens...so there's absolutely no contribution of light from the Commander. I always use my flash in Auto FP mode for this reason.

  

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Kropotkin Registered since 02nd Dec 2012Tue 18-Dec-12 11:49 AM
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#11. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 10


Bicester, GB
          

Hi Graystar

are you saying that this is the case even at speeds faster than 1/250 when high speed synch hasn't kicked in or is it just the case when high speed synch has kicked in?

-Justin

  

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Gray_star Registered since 17th Dec 2012Tue 18-Dec-12 03:16 PM
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#13. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 11


US
          

>Hi Graystar
>
>are you saying that this is the case even at speeds faster
>than 1/250 when high speed synch hasn't kicked in or is it
>just the case when high speed synch has kicked in?

This only occurs when Auto FP has kicked in. I think most pro bodies can be set for Auto FP operation to start at 1/320s and with bodies like the D90, Auto FP starts at 1/250s.

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Tue 18-Dec-12 03:25 PM
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#14. "RE: Advanced wireless system: commander still fires when told not to"
In response to Reply # 0


Chicago, US
          

If you need more information about the sequence of flashes and the shutter status please look at the "Pre-flash sequence" post at the top of this forum. There are also explanations of the exact codes being sent to control the remote flashes.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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