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Subject: "Output Controlled Remote Flashes " Previous topic | Next topic
covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Sun 14-Oct-12 08:01 PM
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"Output Controlled Remote Flashes "


Boston, US
          

Hi All,

I am new to trying remote trigger flash photography, as I almost always shoot available light performance stuff.
Last weekend at EP Levines, up here near Boston, I attended an all day lighting seminar with Bobbi Lane. It was a great learning day and that has my interest cued up.
I shoot mainly concerts, big events with fairly decent lighting.
I recently went and shot a small dark club that would have been far too dark to obtain good images, however, the soundboard guy and I got to talking before the show about photography (he was one of us) and he offered me use of two old flashes SB 24s and the 'cheap knockoffs" he had with him. So, I set on on top of a monitor that was 10 feet from lead singer on small monitor about 8 ft high and the other I strapped side stage to a pole. It was a lot of fun shooting that. Both flashes were at their lowest settings.

With that being said....
I think I am looking to find a combination that will allow me to set up a couple remote flashes and control their output from the camera/transceiver.

Do you know of an affordable way to do that??
3rd party, Nikon, Chinese, old or new choices are all on the table.
I currently have a SB 24 and SB400 along with my D700.

Any suggestions?

Thanks Rocco


Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
JBS101 Silver Member
14th Oct 2012
1
Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
2
     Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
3
     Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
MEMcD Moderator
15th Oct 2012
4
     Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
MEMcD Moderator
15th Oct 2012
6
Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
JBS101 Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
5
Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
7
     Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
MEMcD Moderator
15th Oct 2012
8
     Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
JBS101 Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
9
          Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
15th Oct 2012
10
               Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
barrydb
16th Oct 2012
11
                    Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
16th Oct 2012
12
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JBS101 Silver Member
16th Oct 2012
13
                         Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
covrc Silver Member
17th Oct 2012
14
                              Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
JBS101 Silver Member
17th Oct 2012
15
                              Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
MEMcD Moderator
17th Oct 2012
18
                         Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
gkaiseril Gold Member
17th Oct 2012
16
                         Reply message RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes
MEMcD Moderator
17th Oct 2012
17
                              Reply message SU800 with 2 SB700s
covrc Silver Member
29th Oct 2012
19
                                   Reply message RE: SU800 with 2 SB700s
cliddell Silver Member
29th Oct 2012
20
                                        Reply message RE: SU800 with 2 SB700s
covrc Silver Member
29th Oct 2012
21

JBS101 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Apr 2009Sun 14-Oct-12 10:13 PM
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#1. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 0


Canberra, AU
          

Hi Rocco,

I will start the ball rolling and hopefully others will jump in.

If I were trying to do this cheaply and easily, I would look for one or two used SB600 flash units and trigger them using the pop up flash on your D700. That way you can take full advantage of the Nikon Creative Lighting System (CLS). I imagine you could probably find some locally for about $150 to $200 each.

One draw back of this approach could be that you might not be able to sight the flash units withing the field of view of the pop up flash. (See your D700 manual for details) You could overcome that problem by getting for a used SB800 unit and use that as the flash trigger. That way the flash head can be aimed to trigger your remote flashes. I suspect you would pay about $300 for a used one.

If your budget wont stretch that far, you could buy some older Nikon flashes that support SU 4 (optical triggering) mode, but you will be restricted to operating in manual mode. Optical triggering is also problematic in terms of being triggered by other light sources. I guess the extent of that problem would be determined by lighting in the venue. I don't think your SB 24 flash unit supports optical triggering, and buying an adaptor might not be cost effective. I also don't believe your SB400 unit is going to be of any help because it does not support CLS.

Regards,

John

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 15-Oct-12 03:21 AM
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#2. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 1


Boston, US
          

John,

Many thanks for the information.
I understood the SB-24 and the SB-400 had limitations, does that also mean they would not work if I had PWIIIs? Just curious.

As for applications of the flashes, the SB600s would not be used in any fashion other than lo-fill supplements to existing light shooting.
Though the possibility of using them in a pinch with umbrella's or soft boxes might exist in the future, only not not now.

Why would I use the SB800 as a trigger and not the D700?
Also, would this set up let me adjust the output of the SB600s from the camera? I will not be able to adjust once a show starts.

Thanks Rocco


Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 15-Oct-12 03:28 AM
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#3. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 2


Boston, US
          

Also meant to ask, where does the SB700 fit in all this?


Thanks Rocco

Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Mon 15-Oct-12 06:34 AM
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#4. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 3
Mon 15-Oct-12 06:51 AM by MEMcD

US
          

Hi Rocco,

The SB-700 replaced the SB-600 in the Nikon Speedlight product line.
It has about the same power as an SB-600 but adds Commander capability with the ability to control up to two remote groups.
The SB-700 also has a much better user interface than the SB-600.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Mon 15-Oct-12 06:50 AM
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#6. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 2


US
          

Hi Rocco,

>I understood the SB-24 and the SB-400 had limitations, does
>that also mean they would not work if I had PWIIIs? Just
>curious.

The SB-24 can be triggered by PW Plus III transcievers, though you will have to adjust the power level at the Speedlight.
The SB-400 was designed to be used on camera or attached to the camera hotshoe via a TTL extension cord. There is no way to control the power level and I suspect it can't even be triggered off camera with a PW Plus III.

>Why would I use the SB800 as a trigger and not the D700?

The SB-800, SB-900, and SB-910 can control up to three remote groups. If you place the diffuser dome on and aim the head vertically it can trigger speedlights behind the camera where the D700's built in Speedlight won't be able to. The built in Speedlight like the SB-700 can only control a maximum of two remote groups.

>Also, would this set up let me adjust the output of the SB600s
>from the camera?

Yes! With the remote Speedlights set in remote mode and the built in or on camera flash set in Commander mode. This allows you to use either Manual flash control (set the power level of each remote group) or i-TTL flash control (setting the flash exposure compensation of each remote group).
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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JBS101 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Apr 2009Mon 15-Oct-12 06:49 AM
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#5. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 0


Canberra, AU
          

Hi Rocco,

To answer your questions:

I don't have any experience with Pocket Wizzards, but based on my reading of discussion in this forum, I doubt they could be used with older flash units other than in manual mode. Someone more knowlegable may care to comment.

If you look at page 313 or your D700 manual, you will see that to control remote flash with the camera popup you have to position the remote flash units in an arc forward of the camera. That might not be feasible in many venue unless your flash units were on the stage. You might use the SB800 (or SB900/910) if you want to position the flash units outside that arc. Because you can swivel the head of the SB800 you can put your remote flash in a wider range of positions. You might also note that the popup flash can only control two remote flash groups whereas the SB800 can control three groups.

You can definately control the remote flash from the camera if you use the SB600 or later flash units.

The SB700 replaced the SB600. I did not suggest that because you expressed a desire to do this cheaply. On reflection,I probably should have asked what your budget is.

I hope I have clarified your questions. I would also suggest that you not rely solely on the Nikon manuals when trying to understand the use of remote flash. Have a look at Joe McNally's books as well.

Regards,

John

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 15-Oct-12 12:47 PM
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#7. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 5


Boston, US
          

Thanks for all the great info.
I am looking for approx $600 set up with 2 external flashes that, if absolutely needed, I can adjust manually. Even if one of the external flashes can be controlled, that would be good.

Thanks Rocco



Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Mon 15-Oct-12 07:15 PM
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#8. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

Hi Rocco,

You should be able to find two refurbished or used SB-600's for under $600.00 and use the built in Speedlight in Commander mode to control both of them remotely.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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JBS101 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Apr 2009Mon 15-Oct-12 08:55 PM
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#9. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 7


Canberra, AU
          

Hi Rocco,

If you decide to mix older with newer flash units (ie SB600 and your SB24) you introduce a whole new set of problems relating to how both units will be triggered. I would not suggest going down that path without further research because you do need to understand how the camera and flash units are communicating with each other.

Regards,

John

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 15-Oct-12 11:57 PM
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#10. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 9


Boston, US
          

Thanks for the insights.


Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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barrydb Registered since 30th May 2012Tue 16-Oct-12 07:46 PM
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#11. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 10


US
          

Re: triggering from the D700 flash - if you're in a darkened room, I think you'll be surprised how wide a field the built in flash can trigger remote flashes - the sensors on the SBxxx units are fairly sensitive.

It all depends on whether you want to remotely control the output of the flash. If all you want to do is trigger, then you could simply go with either inexpensive radio triggers (or the expensive PW's)or optical triggers and use virtually any flash - I've got older flashes that I manually configured and triggered with an optical sensor.

Once you want to start remotely controlling the output, things change and become more expensive in terms of triggering, which flashes you can use, etc. If you haven't already seen his site, go to www.strobist.com - David Hobby is a flash guru and there are a number of posts there regarding how to set things up, trigger, control, modify light, etc. - and he shoots Nikon. Joe McNally also shoots a lot of flash, and is very innovative in his approach, but his budgets are typically larger than David's....

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Tue 16-Oct-12 10:23 PM
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#12. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 11


Boston, US
          

Been to Strobist and read McNally too.

So, bottom line is......

SB400 good only on camera.

SB24 good if I get any a trigger if I want to manually control output.

SB 600 If I want two units that can be output controlled by D700
SB 28dx Could these be used in place of the SB 600s?

SB 700 If I want to control 2 Groups, none of which could be the SB24.

SB 800-900-910 if I want to control 3 Groups, none of which could be the SB24.


Thanks. Rocco


Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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JBS101 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Apr 2009Tue 16-Oct-12 10:39 PM
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#13. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 12


Canberra, AU
          

Rocco,

Your summary seems to be accurate, except in relation to the SB 28dx. I can't authoritatively comment on the usability of the SB-28dx because I have never used one. That said, I don't believe you can mix it with the SB600s and get control of both flashes from the camera.

The link below leads to a discussion about the SB28dx and its compatibility with current digital cameras.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/sb28dx.htm

Regards,

John

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Wed 17-Oct-12 01:37 AM
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#14. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 13


Boston, US
          

What is the difference between a PW FlexTT5 and PW Plus III?

Also how does the AC3 fit in with all this?





Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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JBS101 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Apr 2009Wed 17-Oct-12 06:26 AM
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#15. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 14


Canberra, AU
          

Sorry Rocco, I can't help with PW in any form. I have never used them.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Wed 17-Oct-12 10:27 PM
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#18. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 14


US
          

Hi Rocco,

>What is the difference between a PW FlexTT5 and PW Plus III?

The PW Plus III transceivers are Manual triggers and only support Manual flash control.

The PW FlexTT5 transceiver has Control TL technology to provide i-TTL RF wireless flash control when used with another FlexTT5 or a MiniTT1 on camera. In addition to i-TTL flash control, the MIniTT1 and FlexTT5 maintain Manual flash triggering capability when combined with another FlexTT5, or any Plus II, Plus III, or Multi-Max transceiver.

>Also how does the AC3 fit in with all this?

The AC3 is mounted in the on camera MiniTT1 or FlexTT5 can adjust the flash exposure compensation for up to 3 remote groups when using RF wireless i-TTL flash control with Speedlights from the camera position (just like the Nikon CLS wireless flash control using commander mode). It can also be used to adjust the power level of strobes (Alien Bee, Einstein, White Lightning, and Elinchrom) from the camera position when used with the appropriate adaptor.
It works very well in bright sunlight and other conditions where Infrared wireless flash control won't work.

To take advantage of i-TTL flash control you will still need: SB-600, SB-700, SB-800, SB-900, and or SB-910 Speedlights and a MiniTT1 transmitter or FlexTT5 transceiver on camera and a FlexTT5 for each remote i-TTL Speedlight.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons.

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Wed 17-Oct-12 04:34 PM
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#16. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 12
Wed 17-Oct-12 04:35 PM by gkaiseril

Chicago, US
          

You can also mount an SB400 on an SC-17/28/19 TTL cord for a little more freedom of flash location. This works because all the electrical contacts between the camera and the SB-400 are maintained by the cords.

But the manual power output control of the SB-400 is still very limited to a small number of dSLRs.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Wed 17-Oct-12 08:24 PM
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#17. "RE: Output Controlled Remote Flashes "
In response to Reply # 12


US
          

Hi Rocco,

>SB400 good only on camera.

Yes!

>SB24 good if I get any a trigger if I want to manually
>control output.

Yes!

>SB 600 If I want two units that can be output controlled by
>D700

Yes!

>SB 28dx Could these be used in place of the SB 600s?

No! The SB-28DX has the same limitations as the SB-24. D-TTL flash control is not compatible with cameras newer than the D2 series bodies which are backwards compatible. All Nikon DSLR's from the D2 series onward use i-TTL flash control.

>SB 700 If I want to control 2 Groups, none of which could be
>the SB24.

Or the SB-28DX.

>SB 800-900-910 if I want to control 3 Groups, none of which
>could be the SB24.

Or the SB-28DX.
Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 29-Oct-12 02:28 AM
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#19. "SU800 with 2 SB700s"
In response to Reply # 17


Boston, US
          

Hi All,

Well, I bought a used R1C1 system and 2 SB700 here on Nikonians.

I have been watching some videos and practicing. I also received the Rocky Nook Nikon CLS book as well as the Nikon D7000 CLS flash companion (although I use a D700).

Anyway, I set the SB700s
Remote
Channel 1
Group A

Set the SU800 to non-macro
same settings as above.

Works great so far.

One question though, If I assign one
SB700 to Group A Channel 1
SB700 to Group B Channel 2

When I test from the SU-800, one flash triggers FOLLOWED by the other. Why dont they go off together?




Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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cliddell Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Oct 2006Mon 29-Oct-12 12:07 PM
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#20. "RE: SU800 with 2 SB700s"
In response to Reply # 19


Pietermaritzburg, ZA
          

If the SU-800 is the same as a speedlight in Master then, when you press the "test" button the remote speedlights will flash sequentially allowing you to check that each one is firing.

Regards,
Clive Liddell
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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covrc Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Mar 2004Mon 29-Oct-12 09:58 PM
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#21. "RE: SU800 with 2 SB700s"
In response to Reply # 20


Boston, US
          

Thanks for the reply.

So, if I activate a shutter release, they will fire simultaneously?

Thanks Rocco

Your gonna miss 100% of the shots you never take, so keep shooting.

Visit www.roccosphototavern.com

There's Something For Everybody At Rocco's Photo Tavern.

Performance, Landscape, Portrait, Street, Creative and more.

  

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