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Subject: "High speed movement capture" Previous topic | Next topic
KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Fri 26-Dec-08 01:48 AM
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"High speed movement capture"
Fri 26-Dec-08 08:24 AM by KundabungKid

Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK
Hi folks,
I have a question regarding high speed image capture using D300 with SB800.
I have read & re-read the forums and associated blogs but still cant say that I am confident in say shooting a Bee in flight. Can some one give me some friendly easy to understand instuctions. I have tried the instruction manual P48 (SB800)Repeating flash, but it does not appear to be what I am looking for.. Auto FP High Speed Sync Mode seems to be the way to go! There are no examples and I am not sure if what I am doing is achieving what I want.
Any help will be appreciated. The image sizes that I intend to take would be taken with a macro lenses. (Nikon 105 f2.8, or Sigma 180mm macro f3.5) I would like to use iso200 and a reasonable f stop (for DOF.)
Hope I am making sense. chow & thanks, KK

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
blw Moderator
26th Dec 2008
1
Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
Socrates Silver Member
26th Dec 2008
2
Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
Wayne
26th Dec 2008
3
Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
KundabungKid Silver Member
26th Dec 2008
4
Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
5
     Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
Wayne
27th Dec 2008
6
          Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
nl
27th Dec 2008
7
          Reply message RE: High speed movement capture
Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
9
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Wayne
27th Dec 2008
10
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KundabungKid Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
12
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
15
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
8
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Wayne
27th Dec 2008
11
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
13
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Wayne
27th Dec 2008
16
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
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Wayne
27th Dec 2008
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
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KundabungKid Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
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Wayne
27th Dec 2008
17
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KundabungKid Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
22
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jcopeland Gold Member
27th Dec 2008
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Socrates Silver Member
27th Dec 2008
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29th Dec 2008
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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 26-Dec-08 01:19 PM
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#1. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

What do you want your final image to look like?

If you just want to freeze a bee in mid air, you want the fastest exposure. You might do that in full daylight by just shooting a 1/8000th sec - that will freeze almost anything, no flash necessary.

In darkness, just set iTTL flash and track your subject. The maximum duration of an SB-800 flash is 1/1040th sec, and that's for a full-power flash. 1/1000th is also fast enough to stop a bee and its wings.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Fri 26-Dec-08 04:13 PM
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#2. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Adding to blw's comments...

FP high speed sync is definitely NOT the way to go. First, the semantics is very misleading. The FP mode mimics the old FP bulbs, which were long burning bulbs. Technically, an electronic flash can not do a long burn but it can pulse very rapidly and, in doing so, produce the effect of a long continuous burn.

When FP mode is invoked, the sync signal from the camera is transmitted to the flash head BEFORE the shutter opens. The flash then starts firing before the shutter opens and is still firing when the shutter closes.

This continuous burn means that the flash is simulating daylight and everything that you've heard regarding the brevity of an electronic flash is out the window. Your effective flash duration is the mechanical shutter speed!

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Fri 26-Dec-08 06:57 PM
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#3. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 26-Dec-08 11:41 PM by Wayne

US
          

>I have a question regarding high speed image
>capture using D300 with SB800.
>I have read & re-read the forums and associated blogs but
>still cant say that I am confident in say shooting a Bee in
>flight. Can some one give me some friendly easy to understand
>instuctions.

>Any help will be appreciated. The image sizes that I intend to
>take would be taken with a macro lenses. (Nikon 105 f2.8, or
>Sigma 180mm macro f3.5) I would like to use iso200 and a
>reasonable f stop (for DOF.)


High Speed photography is usually done with flashes. Specifically, speedlights at very low power. See SB-800 manual page 122 (SB-600 page 88) for the flash duration at lower flash powers.

The very last thing you want to consider for this is FP High speed sync.

The shutter speed is only a factor for the ambient light, so you want to do this in the shade, where the very close flash (10 or 12 inches - you said macro), at low power like 1/32 or 1/64 power, can overwhelm the daylight and provide maybe f/11 or f/16 macro exposures, with speeds of around 1/30,000 second. This is much easier than it may seem at first.

See http://www.scantips.com/speed.html about the "speed" concept.

Stopping hummingbird wings is a similar subject, see
http://www.google.com/search?q=humming+birds+flash

  

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KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Fri 26-Dec-08 11:26 PM
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#4. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 26-Dec-08 11:27 PM by KundabungKid

Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK
Hi , Brian, (once again to the rescue), George, (G for George goes well with you), & Wayne (excellent links) and many thanks to all for your time and input. You have answered nearly all my questions and I do feel more confident now and to know what I am trying to get in the result. I definitely was totally confused with FP!
I have played with straight fast exposure and then did many tests with the flash combinations. "Brian",.. how do I know what speed the flash is actually shooting at? I can look up the exif data after the event but would like to know before I shoot the image. eg The SB800 shows (in the display -:
flash,,TTL,& BL window the ISO,the distance, zoom and F stop.
On the camera body (D300), in Manual mode I see say "250" @ "f32" (plus the other icons).
I am not sure how to read the "actual flash speed", unless this has to be memorised from a flash chart. Sorry about this but sometimes I need leading!!! Chow & most grateful KK

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 12:02 AM
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#5. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 4


US
          

Check page 122 of your user manual for flash durations with manual flash control. With automatic control, it's pretty much a WAG (wild-assed guess).

By the way, one other characteristic of FP is that there's NO control of flash intensity. Your control is with shutter speed, just as with sunlight. With regular electronic flash, the intensity is controlled by duration (reference page 122). However, as I described previously, FP flash is on during the entire time of the exposure so there's no duration adjustment possible.

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 12:24 AM
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#6. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 5
Sat 27-Dec-08 12:33 AM by Wayne

US
          

>By the way, one other characteristic of FP is that there's NO
>control of flash intensity. Your control is with shutter
>speed, just as with sunlight. With regular electronic flash,
>the intensity is controlled by duration (reference page 122).
>However, as I described previously, FP flash is on during the
>entire time of the exposure so there's no duration adjustment
>possible.

I believe that is obviously not true. True of duration maybe, FP is certainly not like regular flash, but it seems not true that FP power is constant power level.

For proof, in your chair where you sit now, focus at something close in the room, maybe four feet away. Set TTL FP mode and 1/1000 second for all shots (camera manual mode). Shots at f/5.6, f/8, f/11 and f/16 will all be identically exposed, showing that that that the FP flash still automatically adjusts flash power automatically for exposure. Perhaps not exactly the same way it usually works, but obviously with variable powered continuous pulses. It is still automatic.

It is true that shutter speed drastically effects FP flash exposure, that is, double shutter speed cuts FP flash in half, same as it cuts sunlight in half. Whereas any shutter speed lower within sync speed limit does NOT affect regular flash exposure. But the FP flash is still metered, and still automatically responds with flash power level.

But yes, low power regular flash in dim light is vastly better for stopping fast motion than FP flash mode can ever dream of.

  

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nl Basic MemberSat 27-Dec-08 02:36 AM
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#7. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 6


West Hartford, US
          

I have to admit that I do not follow the arguments given.

I understand that at shutter speeds longer than the sync speed (1/250), the flash duration controls flash exposure and also the ability to stop action.

If you use Auto-FP and set your camera to 1/8000 sec, why would you be less able to stop action than at 1/250 with a 1/1000 sec flash duration? The total time that any area of the sensor is exposed for is 1/8000 second at that shutter speed even if, in Auto-FP mode, the flash itself fires for some time >1/18000 sec.

If you were shooting with continuous lights, you would not conclude that the motion stopping power was less at 1/8000 sec shutter speed than at 1/1000, so why does the fact that in FP mode the flash output is pulsed to allow proper exposure of the entire sensor as the slit travels across it change that principle?

If anyone can give me a convincing explanation, please help me to understand.

nl

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 02:56 AM
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#9. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

"If you use Auto-FP and set your camera to 1/8000 sec, why would you be less able to stop action than at 1/250 with a 1/1000 sec flash duration? The total time that any area of the sensor is exposed for is 1/8000 second at that shutter speed even if, in Auto-FP mode, the flash itself fires for some time >1/8000 sec."

Your logic is correct but you're giving an extreme example of maximum duration for regular flash compared with minimum duration of shutter opening. Now, suppose that you reduce the regular flash output so that, instead of 1/1000 second duration, it's only 1/40,000 second duration. What shutter speed would you use in FP mode for your comparison?

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 03:01 AM
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#10. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 7


US
          


>If you use Auto-FP and set your camera to 1/8000 sec, why
>would you be less able to stop action than at 1/250 with a
>1/1000 sec flash duration? The total time that any area of the
>sensor is exposed for is 1/8000 second at that shutter speed
>even if, in Auto-FP mode, the flash itself fires for some time
>>1/18000 sec.



That is very true. If 1/8000 second is fast enough, then it is fast enough. Perhaps it is enough for motion at a distance, but this is not very fast for close up motion.

The 1/8000 second is simply not sufficient to stop some faster motion, for example hummingbird wings, speeding bullets, or even milkdrop splashes. Shutter speed is not the way to go then. Plus you have probably seen the photos where fast focal plane shutters distort the motion, the round shape of the race car wheel for example.

The speedlight flash is only as slow as 1/1000 second when at full power level. Actually, the 1/1000 second flash (at full power) is really more like 1/350 second, by the more useful t.1 specs. The speedlight is NOT AT ALL FAST at full power. But it is very much faster at lower power levels.

At lowest power level, the speedlight flash might do 1/40,000 second, which is faster than 1/8000 second. This low power does however require more dim indoor conditions, because bright ambient sunlight is hurtful, because then the slower shutter will blur the motion that the faster flash already has frozen.

See http://www.scantips.com/speed.html

Which is not about shutters or FP flash, but see the full size view of the 1/128 power picture vs the 1/64 power picture. Notice that 1/128 power (1/41,600 second) stops this milk drop slightly better than even 1/64 power (1/32,300 second, page 122 SB-800 manual).

Such fast flash is the basis of high speed flash photography.

  

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KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Sat 27-Dec-08 03:27 AM
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#12. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 7
Sat 27-Dec-08 03:51 AM by KundabungKid

Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK
nl, Looks like I have opened a hornets nest here. I thought I was the only one having a problem coming to grips with the situation. Maybe some-one can provide suggested alternate configurations that I can & will certainly try, and describe the results I attain. I have ISO auto turned off and flash sync speed set to 1/250th.
I also connected my flash (spotmeter F Minolta ) to the flash to see what the readings were. The faster flash pulses 1/128 etc were not registering, but I think that the limits of the meter were being exhausted.)1:1 & 1/4 were read.
My object is to be able to preferably hand hold and shoot sharp macro images that are moving, with enough DOF to present the image without blur, but also blur the background so that the image is separated from the background. Maybe I am asking too much do you think?.

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 03:40 AM
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#15. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 12


US
          

Well, check out my pics. This is not exactly what you had descried but...

Scroll all the way down to the shot of my grand-daughter in bright red on Thanksgiving Day. I used a D80 with FP flash. Shutter speed of 1/250 second. (The D80 max regular sync is 1/200 second.) Lens was 85mm f/1.8, wide open.

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 02:49 AM
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#8. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 6
Sat 27-Dec-08 03:04 AM by Socrates

US
          

"For proof, in your chair where you sit now, focus at something close in the room, maybe four feet away. Set TTL FP mode and 1/1000 second for all shots (camera manual mode). Shots at f/5.6, f/8, f/11 and f/16 will all be identically exposed, showing that that that the FP flash still automatically adjusts flash power automatically for exposure. Perhaps not exactly the same way it usually works, but obviously with variable powered continuous pulses. It is still automatic."

You are incorrect. I suggest that you do the test that you have just described. You will see that the pics are very definitely NOT identically exposed.

By the way, don't forget to turn off auto-ISO.

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 03:10 AM
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#11. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 8


US
          


>You are incorrect. I suggest that you do the test that you
>have just described. You will see that the pics are NOT
>identically exposed.

?? I have of course done it, and also repeated just now since you questioned it. Ten second test. The frames may not be microscopically identical, no TTL flash frame is microscopically identical, but they are certainly are all pretty near exactly the same. Certainly none are anywhere near a stop different, not any one of them, not adjacent frames, not extreme range f/4 to f/16. All pretty much the same, as such things go.

Do stay within about four feet, as FP mode at 1/1000 second ISO 320 is limited to really have no more range than that. If you exceed the very limited range, you do get underexposure, and also get the normal three blinks at the Ready LED reporting insufficient power.

If it were constant power, there would be no point of metering it.

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 03:28 AM
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#13. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 11


US
          

I took two shots at 1/1000 second, ISO-100, one at f/3.5 that looked kinda OK and another at f/22 that looked like the proverbial black cat on a coal pile at midnight. Here they are:

http://web.me.com/george.dick/Site/Page.html

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 04:07 AM
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#16. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 13


US
          

>I took two shots at 1/1000 second, ISO-100, one at f/3.5 that
>looked kinda OK and another at f/22 that looked like the
>proverbial black cat on a coal pile at midnight. Here they
>are:
>
>http://web.me.com/george.dick/Site/Page.html


I suspect what you are doing wrong is that FP 1/1000 f/22 ISO 100 does not have a tiny fraction of the 6 or 8 foot range distance in your picture.

Use ISO 400, and stay within four feet. Pay attention the the Ready LED flashing three times to report insufficient flash power. Watch the range scale in the LCD on the SB-800 to judge expectations.

Here are mine: http://www.scantips.com/lights/fp.html

f/4, f/8, f/16, all at FP 1/1000 second and ISO 400.
SB-800 on hot shoe of D300.

I would say this automation was equally exposed at any f/stop.

FP flash is obviously not a constant power level. What good would that be? It has to work, or else it would be completely worthless. But I was careful to stay within its four feet range.




  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 04:41 AM
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#18. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 16


US
          

>I suspect what you are doing wrong is that FP 1/1000 f/22 ISO
>100 does not have a tiny fraction of the 6 or 8 foot range
>distance in your picture.
>
>Use ISO 400, and stay within four feet. Pay attention the the
>Ready LED flashing three times to report insufficient flash
>power. Watch the range scale in the LCD on the SB-800 to
>judge expectations.
>
>Here are mine: http://www.scantips.com/lights/fp.html
>
>f/4, f/8, f/16, all at FP 1/1000 second and ISO 400.
>SB-800 on hot shoe of D300.
>
>I would say this automation was equally exposed at any
>f/stop.
>
>FP flash is obviously not a constant power level. What good
>would that be? It has to work, or else it would be
>completely worthless. But I was careful to stay within its
>four feet range.
>
OK. I took more shots at ISO-400 but my distance is still the same (roughly six feet) because I forgot to get closer. Results are the same.

I compared your EXIF data with mine and I did notice one difference. Take at look at the flash category. "Compulsory" vs. "Auto." I'm clueless regarding what it means.

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 04:50 AM
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#19. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 18
Sat 27-Dec-08 05:05 AM by Socrates

US
          

Wayne...

I tried a third pair. This time definitely within four feet and ISO-800. I got the same results that you did!

I don't understand. The flash intensity can not be changed (at least I don't believe that it can be changed) and we both know that the duration is the shutter opening so clearly there should be a difference in the exposure. What's changing to keep the exposure constant?

This time I didn't bother posting the results because there was no need.

It's 1:00 a.m. where I am. I'm going to sleep!

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 05:15 AM
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#20. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 19
Sat 27-Dec-08 05:56 AM by Wayne

US
          

>Wayne...
>
>This is really weird. You and I each have conclusive proof of
>contradictory results!

I can only conclude that you exceeded the distance range of FP flash.

My SB-800 set to ISO 400 f/22 FP 1/1000 second says 3.3 feet maximum on its LCD range scale. Your window seems well farther that that. The flash has heroics, but no magic.

Have you looked at the SB-800 range scale in this FP mode? Are you in range at both apertures? (I am here, which is how I account for the difference).

Different message than I first replied to.

>Wayne...
>
>I tried a third pair. This time definitely within four feet
>and ISO-800. I got the same results that you did!
>
>I don't understand. The flash intensity can not be changed
>(at least I don't believe that it can be changed) and we both
>know that the duration is the shutter opening so clearly there
>should be a difference in the exposure. What's changing to
>keep the exposure constant?


The flash power level is obviously changing to keep the exposure constant. Same effect (maybe a different way) as any mode of automatic TTL flash works. The flash intensity obviously must change.

I dont know what compulsory means. My flash was in TTL FP mode, and the D300 was in 1/250 Auto FP mode. I can imagine compulsory might relate to TTL mode, no attempt at balancing. It was also a halfway dark room.

I dont know any details. I only see that it is of course not constant, but still automatic flash in FP mode, to the extent of its limited range. In order for it to use increased power level for f/16, it must reduce power for f/4, same concepts as other modes. A faster continuous frequency of more narrow pulses surely has lower peaks and less average than a slower frequency of wider pulses which would have higher peaks and average, but no clue what is done. But it does work however.



  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 05:27 AM
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#21. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

I was editing my previous post while you were responding to it.

I tried a third pair of pics, this time definitely within four feet and at ISO-800. I got the same results that you did but I don't understand. As far as I'm aware, the flash intensity can not change and both of us agree that the duration is the shutter duration. So what changed to keep the exposure constant?

  

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KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Sat 27-Dec-08 03:37 AM
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#14. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 11


Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK
Wayne, do you have some suggested settings to say shoot a bee in flight in daylight and within 4ft to get a sharp (handheld ) image with good separation from the bckground. I am all ears and eager to try anything at the moment. I have taken on board all that has been discussed, but there seems to be some conjecture about the settings. I prefer to shoot in filtered light when possible, but that is not always available, and as you know as the light goes, so does the dof. chow KK

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Sat 27-Dec-08 04:23 AM
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#17. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 14
Sat 27-Dec-08 04:32 AM by Wayne

US
          

I would stage this in the shade, to prevent direct sunlight from swamping your results. It cannot work in bright ambient.

The SB-800 guide number table on page 42 is for ISO 100. For ISO 200, each value is 1.414x more, and for ISO 400, each value is 2x more.

Says (for one example): 1/64 manual power at 105mm zoom is GN 23 (feet), which is GN 46 for ISO 400. GN 46 at 4 feet would be 46/4 = f/11.5 exposure. Page 122 says 1/64 power is 1/32300 second duration, which is fast even for a bee.

So 1/64 manual flash power at ISO 400 at f/11 at 4 feet should be ballpark, for one example. This is flash distance, the camera and lens can be at any other distance. Vary the distance of the flash slightly (to the subject) to zero it in for good exposure. This requires some setup.

Any shutter speed is not about the flash, but is only about the ambient light. If it were halfway dark (at f/11) then you could use a 1 second exposure. That is, without using the flash, 1 second at f/11 at ISO 400 ought to be pretty dark IF you were going to use 1 second. Just saying then the 1 second would not matter. This fact may just be a confusion factor.

Your bee will be in more light. Your actual shutter speed is to expose the ambient at f/11. But if it is very bright and matched, bright enough for the ambient to show the blurring it produces, this slower shutter speed will blur your bee, anything the fast flash already froze. One route would be to underexpose the ambient (with fast shutter, maximum shutter sync speed) to the extent you can. Ambient which is way underexposed and dark cannot blur at any shutter speed. Read the hummingbird articles, I have to think it is the same in about ever concept.



  

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KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Sat 27-Dec-08 06:13 AM
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#22. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 17


Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK
Thanks so much, explanation looks what I was looking for . Will give the ferret a run tomorrow. (1800 here at the moment.) Hope I havent been a PITA (pain in the arse.)
Thanks all bye the way, Chow KK

  

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jcopeland Gold Member Nikonian since 22nd Nov 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 06:42 PM
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#23. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 22


Cordova, US
          

I wish I had seen this before I spent all that time trying to get decent images of hummingbirds this summer. I was doing everything wrong, including using FP. It's a wonder I got any images at all. About the only thing I accomplished was to annoy the birds.

On the bright side (no puns expressed or implied), I have lots of time to practice before those fast little rascals show up again next year.


In theory there's no difference between theory and reality, but in reality there is.

  

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Socrates Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Apr 2008Sat 27-Dec-08 08:10 PM
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#24. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 23


US
          

Be careful about some of my posts that contain incorrect information. Wayne pointed out my error and, after several exchanges, he finally convinced me.

  

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KundabungKid Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Jan 2007Mon 29-Dec-08 08:33 AM
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#25. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 17


Kempsey, AU
          

FR
KK,
Wayne, Just like to say again many thanks for the top support and the terrific links. I have actually downloaded most of the info to hard copy I was so impressed. I am retired and have been so for about 15 years now but appreciate the time and effort you have put in. You are definately a A1 asset to Nikonians. I hope you didnt make any bad friends during our conversations. George was most apologetic and it takes a man to admit that he is wrong. Women do it for us so easily.(Grin) Anyhow, I am still working on the HS settings, but have already produced some fruitful results. Chow, KK

  

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Wayne Registered since 05th Nov 2005Mon 29-Dec-08 04:31 PM
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#26. "RE: High speed movement capture"
In response to Reply # 25


US
          

Yes, the speedlight is totally amazing in its ability to freeze fast motion. It is the reason they call it "speedlight". Its low power does do this better in dimmer places however. If you allow the slower continuous light in, then it can blur what the flash already froze... but shutter speed can often keep it out.

Don't worry about George and I, we have no issues. Both of us merely seek the truth, and it was just a friendly discussion trying to find it. I don't think there is anyone who understands all of what Nikon does inside there.

  

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