Could someone please explain what the purpose of this unit is? I dont understand it - in the Nikon blurb it says it for wireless CLS, but the D200 is capable of wireless CLS without spending another £300, so what is the point of it?

You can already just use the D200 in commander mode and use SB800/600's off camera wirelessly!!

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I have thought the same in the past but I think I might be getting one. One thing I see right away is the ease of setting the remote flashes. I haven't looked into it but it looks like everything can be set up on the SU800.I also was wondering how much power you use when using the commander mode and flash on the D200. Also it is my understanding that the commander mode lacks in an outdoors environment. In any event it would be nice to hear some input from some users before I pull the trigger.

Bill Ryan
Middletown,Md

It is ideal for multiple flash CLS, since you can do individual settings by goups and channels, whout having to do them flash by flash, walking to each one.
I love mine.

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You can use your D200 commander, another SB-800 or the SU-800 to control additional SB’s off camera wirelessly. The only advantages to using the SU-800 commander over your D200 pop-up in commander mode are:
1) Your D200 only has an A and B group. The SU-800 has A, B and C, allowing for a little more control with additional SB’s.
2) Your D200 fires pre-flashes to control the wireless off-camera SB’s. The SU-800 fires these same pre-flashes, but in Infra Red, so they are not visible at all to your subject. This is nice, especially when shooting in TTL mode, since TTL fires so many pre-flashes (although some folks put covers over their D200 popup so it can still communicate with the remote flashes, but not actually flash).
3) Supposedly, the range on the SU-800 is farther than the flash commanders (although I have a few thoughts on that).

I shoot with a D200 and D2X, and use the SB-800, SU-800 and Pocket Wizards to fire remote flashes at various times. The more I shoot with remote flashes, the less I use my SU-800 commander. At least outdoors.

Why? Outdoors, the SU-800 is all but worthless even at medium distances, unless you maintain a direct line of sight with the remote flashes. This can be tricky if you are using more than 2 or 3 SB's in various locations. It seems like having a flash commander (like the D200 popup) wraps around flashes, trees, etc. a little better in most cases outdoors. If I am shooting at longer distances outdoors, I just use the PW’s, since they are about 100% reliable, and don’t rely on any line of sight. The SU-800 is nice indoors though. The IR signal seems to wrap around walls well, and is very reliable. Plus, you get the HUGE added benefit of being able to dial up and down the power of your remote flashes, like on the D200 commander. You can’t do this with PW’s, and have to change the power of each flash manually.

If you are using your D200 popup as a commander, and don’t really feel a need for the extra C group of the SU-800, and are happy with it’s performance, I wouldn’t recommend getting the SU commander. Unless the pre-flashes are bothering you. I actually bought the SU-800 commander because at the time, I only shot with the D2X, which has no popup. And I decided to get the SU commander instead of yet another SB-800.

Bryan...
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I don't own any of the pocket wizards yet, but they sound interesting. So far, most of my wireless flash shooting has been done indoors or with the strobes relatively close to the camera.

To be honest, using the D200 in commander mode is quite a pain in the butt to modify settings, especially compared to making them using either an SB-800 or a SU-800. I guess it is a "relative" pain, but certainly much slower and tedious. (I asked about a quicker way to access the Commander settings a long time ago, and no one could offer a quick way) On a D200 Commander mode, you toggle through to the right menu, make the changes to either the A or B groups, or both, then you must SAVE the changes and toggle out. It is easy to neglect the SAVE step and miss a shot, and you can miss shots while toggling through the menus. I like the option of having group C when using the SU-800 or SB-800 units as controllers, too.

EDIT: With a SU-800 on the camera (or connected with a sync cord), the LCD is on and ready. If you are already in Group B, you can simply toggle more or less light to that group, then start shooting. About the most you ever have to do is toggle the Select button three or four times to get to any of the other groups. Much faster!

Besides all the comments already given, using the built in flash and built in commander mode of a D200 still requires the preflash and it requires a direct line of sight to the remotes. A few days ago, I was photographing some hummingbirds. I had everything set up and working fine with an SU-800 unit mounted on the hot shoe of the camera. However, when I rotated my D200 and 200-400 lense to a vertical format, the lense blocked the line of sight to the remotes on the right side. That would be even more of an issue if using the built in flash. To solve the problem, I added the Really Right Stuff flash bracket to the Sidekick and put the SU-800 at the top again, connected with a small sync cord. Everything worked fine again.

Lastly, if the SU-800 is set to the macro setting, you get a unique feature. You can set a strobe(s) to the right and strobe(s) to the left, then use the buttons to "slide" output left and right of center. When in the center position, both strobes flash at the same output. When slid to the left, the left gets more power and the right one drops off.

So, with the SU-800 or SB-800 used as controllers, you add a lot of options and ease of use features over just the basic D200 Commander.

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

Hi Mike,

I'm curious about the SU-800 macro mode. Is that any different than doing a little -EV flash comp on one or the other flashes? I'm sure the SU-800 is a little more convenient but other than that are there any additional benefits?

Neil

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Neil,
When I received my SU-800 unit, it was set to the Macro mode. Like everyone else, I used it a while in that mode before I broke out the manual to try to figure out how to set it to normal mode. The little toggle switch is inside the battery door. I'd have to go read that section again, but it works differently than the standard mode. Once you get the output set correctly (either within the two strobe groups settings, or within your EV settings on the camera), you then can easily adjust how you want the light to hit your subject. Without a lot of hassle, sliding the light bar lets you snap a few with a lot of light from the right side with a little fill on the left, or straight on, or with the heavy light on the left. You can even put all the light to one side and turn off output on the other. Making the adjustments takes only seconds.

Since I am not shooting with three or four strobes most of the time, I don't use that feature, but I can see how it could come in handy. I'd probably use that feature more if I added one more R200 unit to my set up and were photographing my toys.

At any rate, it is a feature that lets you know the engineers at Nikon were really thinking about all the options for their CLS system and the ways people might use the R200 units (but not limited to R200 units)

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

It has the capability to control the macro flash units and is available as part of a close up flash kit. It signals using IR - very useful for portraiture or macro where the just visible SB-800 pre flash can disturb the subject.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

I'm not sure if this was already metnioned. But, besides all of the above one of the reasons I really like it, is you don't have to go into the menu of the camera to adjust your settings. It is so much faster to adjust your off-camera flashes. And, you totally eliminate any exposure from the on-board flash.

Hecky

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>And, you totally eliminate any exposure from the on-board flash.
With the D200 (and probably the D80) setting the on camera flash to nil output is a custom function option.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

The SU-800 was designed for cameras that do NOT have the commander capability. Then they built in a lot of the SU-800 features in the D70 and later cameras. Believe it or not the $5,000 D2Xs does not support commander modes and requires the addition of the SU-800 to control the Nikon wireless system.

So, with D200 and other commander supporting cameras, it's kind of like adding chocolate syrup to the chocolate ice cream... not really necessary, but some people like it that way!

C. Michael Hager
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michaellhager,
No disrespect intended, but I am guessing you don't own a SU-800? If you go back and read all the posts above, I believe you will see the SU-800 offers a LOT of features to the mix, even if you have a D200, D70, or a camera that has a Commander mode built in. Using your ice cream analogy, you also get some cherries (extra group), whip cream (no pre-flashes), and a couple of slices of bananas (ease of use).

When I go hiking off into the forest, I don't usually don't carry all my flash units and gear...maybe the camera and one strobe. In those cases, I would use the built in D200 commander mode, but when I am set up at home, I can't imagine not wanting to get the SU-800 mounted and part of the action.

I don't recall seeing many SU-800 owners saying they wish they had gone a different direction, although one person in this thread says they are using a pocket wizard more often when they are at longer distances.

On a personal note, now that I have an SU-800 and several SB-800s to compare, I'd opt for the SU-800 over using a SB-800 as a commander, even if the extra SB-800 was exactly the same price. That was the hardest decision for me at the time...spend a little more and get a full flash unit, or spend a little less and get one that only controls other units. At the time, I was taking photos of my golden retriever puppy. She was blinking on many of the shots as a result of the pre-flashes. Once, the SU-800 arrived, that problem was solved and I knew I made the right decision. An SB-800 will always send out a pre-flash, even when the strobe is set to No Output (--). Trying to control the remotes using the internal Commander will also send out the pre-flashes. I spent quite a bit of time photographing hummingbirds this year, too. Without the preflashes, I normally get feeding birds that spook (only slightly) AFTER the main strobes go off.

Best regards,

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

Hi Mike,

Have you tried an SG-31R to eliminate the pre-flashes? (IR panel that covers the pop up flash and supposedly shields all visible light). I don't own one but next chance I get I think I want to try one ($13 list).

(I'm not in this epic battle here, just analyzing all the various trade-offs and benefits and looking at alternatives ).

Thanks for your thoughts on the macro/normal option, above.

Neil

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Hi Neil,
Yes, I have one of the SG-31R devices. It works with the pop-up flash on the D-200 but wouldn't solve the problem on a SB-800 if used as a commander. I bought it just to have the gadget, but haven't needed it since it came in about the same time as my SU-800 unit. An SB-800 would have done all I needed it to do as a controller, but it pre-flashes. It is relatively easy to add or reduce power to any or all the three remote groups, and it would still be available as a working, full powered strobe. But again, the problem is the pre-flash and the SG-31R doesn't stop it on a SB-800.

Believe me, I put myself through the epic battle at about the time I was considering which way to go. At the time I was making the decision, I had two SB-800 units and an R200 unit, so I was able to play with and evaluate that option. Another SB-800 was $315 or $250 for the SU-800. I was ready to pay the extra $65 to get the flash head, but I kept running into the problem of my puppy blinking. I "could have" linked a controller with a sync cord and maybe have aimed it away from the puppy's eyes, but didn't try that. On several occasions, I simply held a hand in front of the strobe to block some of the light and that helped, but it took one hand away from holding the camera still and focusing. Of course, when I got my hand too close, the remotes didn't fire. About right then and there, I knew I was going to buy the SU-800.

Does everyone "need" a SU-800?...absolutely not! Can most people make do without it?....probably! Would I do it again?...absolutely. Going back to the original post, the person was simply asking why anyone would need one? My puppy was only a puppy for a short while and I felt good about the timing and the decision. She's 10 months old now, but I continue to use the unit on a regular basis. I wish it used the rechargable nickel metal hydride batteries, but the CR123a batteries last quite a while.

After reading a little about the Pocket Wizards, I looked over their site. They look interesting, but are definitely spendy!

EDIT:
If you happen to want to see any of the puppy photos from last December, go to www.stockshop.net and do a search for "mike jackson golden" (no quotes). I set up a little home made photo booth for her when she was a puppy and lit the area with two SB-800 units (left and right) and one R-200 shooting down on the background. It was held out and over the space with a boom arm. About the same time, I bought some inexpensive light stands, umbrellas, and the umbrella/strobe connectors. My credit cards took a beating during that time frame, but I don't have any regrets!

Hope this helps,

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

Hi Mike,

I saw a suggestion here or somewhere else to remove the IR filter from the SG-31R and tape it to the SB-800. Yes, that's a little hokey, but curious if you think the filter is big enough to cover the SB-800.

Somehow "Why do I want this gadget" becomes a test of manhood for many participants, there being only one correct answer in the universe of course

I tend to see things in shades of grey. This discussion will get booknmarked; lots of good points made, some subtle.

Well, my CC is beat up too; I added a 2nd SB-800, dual Wimberly macro brackets, plus telephoto brackets and a full Wimberly head this summer, so I went off on two different but tangentially related adventures.

I think in the grand scheme of things, a 3rd Speedlight would give me the most benefit- I would like to light backgrounds too, especially macro so I can make my images look like "available light" and still shoot 1/250 and light both sides of my subject. It is amazing how such tiny things create such huge shadows with only one light source.

I do see advantages to having the controls on top of the body; I use an SB-800 on a cord on a macro arm as master and it's a PITA to get to the dial and read it. The hot shoe position (a la SU-800) is the best solution.

I also understand the pre-flash thing. Song birds are VERY sensitive to flash, to the point where even a single SB-800, not acting as master, will scare them off. Even some insects. My solution is to revert to manual mode, which eliminates any kind of pre-flash. Or maybe there is something I can turn off and still retain TTL.

I'm actually a little confused by the pre-flash thing. I know that the pre-flashing is communication between the devices. But my understanding is that people blink even with a single simple on camera flash, which is one reason for FV lock, or shooting manual. I see this too with my birds. If that is the case, it doesn;t seem like the SU-800 solves the problem, it just eliminates *some* of the pre-flashing. Maybe you need to ask your dog about it since he has been subjected to all this abuse.

My 100LB fearsome black lab mix, who took down a deer last year, is deathly scared of lightning. If I fire a flash anywhere near him, all I see is a receding tail. His images are all ambient light . He doesn't even like that because flash=lightning and camera=flash, equals lightning.

Regards,
Neil

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At about this point, the pre-flash discussion will get over my head. The red-eye setting will send out a quick pre-flash which is designed to make the people's iris contract slightly just before the full flash. In regular flash photography, if red-eye reduction off, doesn't the strobe just flash when the button is pressed? For the CLS system using the internal commander or an SB-800 commander, the pre-flash is used to read the scene and then send a pulse to the remotes for the actual flash actuation(s). There is absolutely no visible light being emmitted from a SU-800 if that option is used. As far as I can tell, there isn't much of a delay from the time I press the shutter button until I see the flash go off when using a SU-800 controller, but I do see some delay (the pre-flash time) when using the SB-800 as a controller. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong on this observation.

Back when I was asking the questions about the pre-flash issue, a few people suggested using rubylith (red, transparent graphics arts film) over a strobe. I never tried it, even though I have lots of rubylith around. It might work. I don't think the SG-31R cover is large enough to block the flash on an SB-800. The semi-opaque flip down panel is 2" tall and only 2.25" wide. Maybe it would knock down enough of the direct light to solve the problem.

With all this discussion, I will try a few of these suggestions next time I have all the equipment set up. I always enjoy the discussions here because I always learn something new!

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

Hi Mike,

It is my understanding that iTTL emits a low level pre-flash in order to determine exposure. I am paraphrasing from Thom Hogan's eBook, which I just reviewed quickly as a sanity check. He goes into some detail as to some of the potential impacts of the pre-flash exposure setting of DLSR's, verses off-the-film TTL that was computed during the exposure with film bodies. He does not mention birds.

I am pretty careful to turn red eye off. I just know some birds do not tolerate iTTL and are in flight at the instant of exposure. If I switch to manual, I get the shot before they take off. I've seen this across 3 camera bodies over 3 years.

Regards,
Neil

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Mike - There are rechargeable Li RCR123 cells available. I don't know that much about them because I've never had a need. Probably better just to buy them bulk on the net, where they are fiarly cheap.

Neil

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Hi Neil,
I haven't really looked into the Li version of the CR123 batteries. That'd mean an additional charger and adapter cords to carry around with me and more expensive batteries to buy. I bought some relatively cheap batteries from B&H a while back and they are lasting a reasonable period of time. "It would have been nice"...if Nikon had used AA or AAA batteries for the controller and R200 units, but the units probably would have had to be larger.

I bought my first few CR123 batteries at Radio Shack and they were quite a bit more expensive.

Mike Jackson

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

The units would have definitely been larger with 4xAA, and heavier. Especially the R200's. Trade-offs. How many cycles do you actually get on your SU-800?

I agree that it is not worth different chargers, etc., for that, but your mentioned it . An R1C1 setup, especially with 3+ lights would be different.

I am playing with eneloop cells for my SB-800's. As I work with them, I like what I see so far. It will take 6-12 months to be sure, though. What I like about it is that, with 2 SB-800's using the battery door, that is 20 cells, with a backup set. With an 8 cell charger, that is still 3 charge cycles, or at least 8 hours, realistically, to do a "2 hour charge". Just to top off is 3 charge cycles even though it goes faster. It's getting harder to keep things topped off. With 3 SB-800's it would be 50% more effort and time.

Neil

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I've read quite a bit of posts regarding recharging times and different chargers and different kinds of batteries.

With three SB-800s, an old SB-28, and one SD-8a power unit, I have a lot of batteries and potential call for a lot of battery charging. Whether I went the right way or not, I just bought the Nickel Metal Hydride batteries from Radio Shack (we are in a small town with limited stores). I purchased one of their 30 minute quick chargers and am more than happy with the combinations. Actually, I now own three of the chargers, but only really have to use one on most days. I have a second set of batteries to cover the SD-8a and a couple of strobes, so it is just a matter of taking four batteries out, replacing them with recharged batteries, and charging the old four. By the time I start seeing any problems with any of the other strobes, the batteries are ready to go again.

One of the posts I saw suggests those chargers may only be charging to about 90%. I couldn't tell you whether that is true, only that what I am doing seems to work fine for me.

When I was shooting the hummers a couple of weeks ago, I shot a couple of days on one CR123 batteries in the R200. That would have been about 300 shots per day, maybe more some days. The temperatures had been dropping down to the 30s at night now, so I believe a large portion of my hummers are beginning to leave town.

If someone were to tell me they could absolutely be certain they got much better life out of PowerMax or other batteries, I might consider switching someday. Personally, I think it would be hard for anyone to tell by just using different batteries since conditions and shooting scenarios change so much. It would take some Consumer Reports style bench testing to really know. My shots with the hummers were set up at only about 18" from the feeders or flowers, so they weren't taking full blasts of power, compared to the same shots at three or four feet.

M. Jackson

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

> It would take some Consumer Reports style
>bench testing to really know.

It takes a $52 charger to do that . I just bought one. It charges, discharges, "forms", which is a very slow discharge-charge-discharge-charge cycle, and analyzes. The charget tells me how much capacity each battery has.

I'm a little bit of an electronics geek, I guess.

Your RS 30 min charger probably does not charge fully to capacity. If it did it would probably overcharge, which would be worse. It's better to do a slower charge, at least an hour, and some chargers then do a trickle charge to fully top off the battery. It's easy to spend more $$$ on chargers than batteries, and spend a lot of time researching it. It is easier to buy an extra full set

The new Eneloops are good because they can be had for about $10 per set of 4, and are supposed to store 75% of their charge after a year. They are good as backup sets because you don't have to keep topping them off, which is not real healthy either. Conventional NiMH's usually discharge much faster than spec, often after only a few weeks, depending on the charger and how you use them.

Neil

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M Jackson…
No Disrespect taken. Sorry, I didn’t build the entire ice cream sundae, I realize that there are many more bells and whistles installed. Just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in about Ninkon’s possible motives for duplication of features.

Yep, there are many features on the SU800 not found in the cameras.. (you have to decide just how much you can get a camera to do before it’s bigger then a breadbox) but the basics are, that it was designed to produce wireless lighting effects for cameras that do not have the capabilities. Since it is a dedicated lighting command center, it does TONS of cool stuff. The fact is, Nikon took some of it’s features and built them into some of their cameras.

So, indeed, you already have chocolate ice cream. If you want, you can pour on some chocolate syrup… and cherries… and bananas… and chopped nuts… and whipped cream… But you could get just as much pleasure from eating your bowl of plain chocolate ice cream…

C. Michael Hager
Your most important piece of photo equipment is built into your face.
www.cmhager.com/Content/photo.shtml

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Yep, an SU-800 sitting on top of a D2X is a much smaller and elegant "gadget" than a full SB-800 if all you are doing is controlling remote strobes. Most people would rather light their subject from one side or the other, or both, than straight on. That's when the off camera remotes start paying dividends.

Best regards,

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

I would also think it (SU-800) balances better, but I would not know, being SU-800 challenged

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...I have to agree with MJackson...I have PW's for my three SB26's, and SB24...and use them with my studio lights as well. My SU800 is excellent with the SB800's. I find it to be more "effective" than using an SB800 as a commander. I usually use them indoors without a problem, and I shoot the SB800's in manual mode...this is where it is a dream to operate the flashes from the camera. If I am using one SB800..then I can go TTL or manual...otherwise manual for more than one. In more questionable circumstances I use the PW's.