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Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Nikon Speedlights & Lighting topic #14392
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Subject: "SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Situati" Previous topic | Next topic
3XP05UR3 Registered since 30th Mar 2006Wed 19-Apr-06 12:29 AM
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"SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Situati"



          

I'm a fairly new d200 and sb-800 owner. Love them both. Life changing stuff.

I'm using the camera for some product shots for our business. I've jury rigged a simple tabletop setup with a 250W strobe with a big softbox and some white foamcore acting as reflectors. The softbox provides a good backlighting situation.

They're coming out so much better than I ever thought I could be capable of. But I'm finding that the products (blue semi glossy bottles approx. 6" tall) are coming out slightly dark. I got the SB-800 to use as a simple fill light. Now here's the problem:

I want to keep the sb800 off camera positioned exactly the same every time. This is fine when its in acting as a slave and the d200 controls it in commander mode. BUT it will not fire the backlighting strobe. I've tried hooking the strobe up to the camera AND the sb800, none of it seems to work. Is there some sort of setting I am totally overlooking? If I had the time I would have my nose in the manual but I need to shoot this Thursday.

So, what do you experts have for me?

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
3XP05UR3
19th Apr 2006
1
Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
sixgun
19th Apr 2006
2
Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
3XP05UR3
19th Apr 2006
3
     Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
sixgun
19th Apr 2006
4
          Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
3XP05UR3
19th Apr 2006
5
               Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
nl
19th Apr 2006
6
                    Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
3XP05UR3
19th Apr 2006
7
                         Reply message RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit
nl
20th Apr 2006
8

3XP05UR3 Registered since 30th Mar 2006Wed 19-Apr-06 03:52 PM
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#1. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 0



          

Wow. No replies.

Better get that paddle ready. That creek isn't going to smell any better.

  

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sixgun Registered since 26th May 2004Wed 19-Apr-06 05:23 PM
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#2. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 0


Austin, US
          

>BUT it will not fire the backlighting strobe. I've tried hooking the strobe up to the camera AND the sb800, none of it seems to work. Is there some sort of setting I am totally overlooking? <

Yes, your running into the joy of pre-flash. Your D200/SB-800 is firing a metering pre-flash, this kicks off your softboxed strobe and then the SB fires for real while the strobe is in recharge. See it all the time.

Solution – Disregard 30 years of remote metering technology. Put your D200 on camera flash to manual mode, toned way down enough to trigger the optical slaves on the strobe. Or use a sync cord.

Go menu diving in the SB-800 and set it to SU-4 manual mode. This makes it a dumb flash that will fire when tripped by the other flashes. You will have to manually dial in the amount of flash power you want but since your flash is stationary that’s no biggie. Set your shutter speed at 1/125 if you have sync issues.

Alternatively consider a piece of posterboard with aluminum foil taped to it as a reflector in the front.

  

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3XP05UR3 Registered since 30th Mar 2006Wed 19-Apr-06 06:20 PM
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#3. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 2



          

>Yes, your running into the joy of pre-flash. Your
>D200/SB-800 is firing a metering pre-flash, this kicks off
>your softboxed strobe and then the SB fires for real while
>the strobe is in recharge. See it all the time.

Actually, when the strobe is connected via the sync terminal to the d200 and the sb800 is in slave mode, ONLY the sb800 fires. I can't get both of them to fire at the same time. I've even tried connecting the strobe to the sb800s sync terminal. no dice.
>
>Solution – Disregard 30 years of remote metering technology.
>Put your D200 on camera flash to manual mode, toned way down
>enough to trigger the optical slaves on the strobe. Or use a
>sync cord.

I dont have a choice the only way studio strobe will fire is by sync cord

>
>Go menu diving in the SB-800 and set it to SU-4 manual mode.
>This makes it a dumb flash that will fire when tripped by
>the other flashes. You will have to manually dial in the
>amount of flash power you want but since your flash is
>stationary that’s no biggie. Set your shutter speed at 1/125
>if you have sync issues.
>

I don't have a choice here either, the sync with the strobe is set to 1/250.

>Alternatively consider a piece of posterboard with aluminum
>foil taped to it as a reflector in the front.

yes, possibly, although I'd like to avoid it...

thanks for the response.

  

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sixgun Registered since 26th May 2004Wed 19-Apr-06 09:05 PM
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#4. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 3


Austin, US
          

>Actually, when the strobe is connected via the sync terminal to the d200 and the sb800 is in slave mode, ONLY the sb800 fires. I can't get both of them to fire at the same time. I've even tried connecting the strobe to the sb800s sync terminal. no dice.
<

Ok, it seems then that if you are firing the onboard flash it is not sending info to the hotshoe and thus the sync.

Solution-
Sync your strobe to the D200 via an AS-15 or the like. This will kick off the softbox strobe. Set your SB-800 to SU-4 mode and it will pick the flash off the strobe and fire.

>I don't have a choice here either, the sync with the strobe is set to 1/250.<

Strange sync. Everyone I've used doesn't give a flip about the shutter speed. Just the camera has problems if its too fast.

  

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3XP05UR3 Registered since 30th Mar 2006Wed 19-Apr-06 09:18 PM
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#5. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 4



          

>>Actually, when the strobe is connected via the sync terminal to the d200 and the sb800 is in slave mode, ONLY the sb800 fires. I can't get both of them to fire at the same time. I've even tried connecting the strobe to the sb800s sync terminal. no dice.
><
>
>Ok, it seems then that if you are firing the onboard flash
>it is not sending info to the hotshoe and thus the sync.
>
>Solution-
>Sync your strobe to the D200 via an AS-15 or the like. This
>will kick off the softbox strobe. Set your SB-800 to SU-4
>mode and it will pick the flash off the strobe and fire.
>
>>I don't have a choice here either, the sync with the strobe is set to 1/250.<
>
>Strange sync. Everyone I've used doesn't give a flip about
>the shutter speed. Just the camera has problems if its too
>fast.

It does seem strange. But any shutter speed faster or slower and I get problems.

Can I just set up the strobe connected directly to the d200, the sb800 on SU-4 and it will fire when the strobe fires?

  

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nl Basic MemberWed 19-Apr-06 09:57 PM
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#6. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 5


West Hartford, US
          

I would expect that, assuming your strobe supports optical triggering (does it?), it should fire as noted above by the D200's pre-flashes, and therefore fire before the SB800 does, since the SB800 will fire _after_ the preflashes. Your posting does not indicate that the strobe is firing at all, so I wonder if it is working properly and/or does not support optical triggering.

I have a few questions that would help me to think through the problem with you:

1) It's odd that your external strobe is requiring a shutter speed of 1/250. I'm curious to know the brand/model.

2) From the trouble shooting standpoint, it would be nice to answer a few questions, eg: a) is there sync output on the PC port of your D200 (I assume that with the D200 in commander mode, there is still sync output at the PC port, but that may NOT be the case, as perhaps the D200 assumes that in commander or master mode you are ONLY using the CLS and not firing other strobes. That doesn't make good sense, but it could be the way Nikon did it); b) does the sync output from the PC port fire i) the SB800 and ii) your other strobe. I think this information would be the first set of things that I would want to know in trying to figure out what's going on.

I would suggest, if you don't mind, doing the following:
1) Activate the flash on the D200 so it fires (manual output), set the SB800 to SU-4 mode. Trip the shutter and see if the SB800 fires - to confirm that optical triggering works for the SB800.

2) Repeat #1, but this time do it with the strobe instead of the SB800. This will confirm optical triggering of the strobe.

3) Connect the SB800 via a sync cable to the D200, and strip the shutter. Do this with the on-camera flash in commander mode, master mode, firing mode, or flipped off entirely. This info will confirm that there is sync output on the D200 (assuming the SB800 fires in any of these four tests) and that it fires the SB800.

4) Repeat #3 using the other strobe. VERY IMPORTANT to ensure that this strobe using a low sync voltage (<5V)> I am NOT a strobe expert, but I have read a fair amount recently as I am buying some strobes myself at this time, and there is clearly concern that strobes using higher sync voltages can damage the camera!

-- If neither the SB800 nor the strobe fire with any of the four flash modes on the D200 described above, then I would wonder if there is a problem with the sync output on your D200 and that's the thing to sort out next. If _either_ does fire at any time, then we will know which of the two (or both) works via cable sync, and which flash modes on the D200 work to fire via sync cable. I would expect a cabled sync to fire regardless of how the D200's intergral flash is set up, but maybe we will find out that is not the case. I cannot test any of this myself as I have a D2X and not D200, but I could try with my D70 to confirm your findings once we have them - the D70 has a commander, but not master, mode.

If you have the chance to do the above, and post the results (or email me directly if you want), I'd be happy to discuss what you found and see if I can help you figure out what the next step should be.

Good luck.
nl

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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3XP05UR3 Registered since 30th Mar 2006Wed 19-Apr-06 11:49 PM
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#7. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 6



          

>I would expect that, assuming your strobe supports optical
>triggering (does it?), it should fire as noted above by the
>D200's pre-flashes, and therefore fire before the SB800
>does, since the SB800 will fire _after_ the preflashes. Your
>posting does not indicate that the strobe is firing at all,
>so I wonder if it is working properly and/or does not
>support optical triggering.

It may well support optical triggering, but it would require an additional accessory to do so. I got a simple lighting kit—softbox, strobe, model lamp, stand...just the basics. So I've been firing these with the included sync cord directly to my d200.

Here's the model more or less: http://www.boothphoto.com/lkits.cfm?P=43

>
>I have a few questions that would help me to think through
>the problem with you:
>
>1) It's odd that your external strobe is requiring a shutter
>speed of 1/250. I'm curious to know the brand/model.
>
Booth. That's literally all the manual said 1/250. Anything slower and I get either a totally washed out white image or a black bar.


>2) From the trouble shooting standpoint, it would be nice to
>answer a few questions, eg: a) is there sync output on the
>PC port of your D200 (I assume that with the D200 in
>commander mode, there is still sync output at the PC port,
>but that may NOT be the case, as perhaps the D200 assumes
>that in commander or master mode you are ONLY using the CLS
>and not firing other strobes. That doesn't make good sense,
>but it could be the way Nikon did it)

I'm not sure what a "PC port" is. But I'm only aware of the sync port that I connect to the strobe.

; b) does the sync output from the PC port fire i) the SB800 and ii) your other
>strobe. I think this information would be the first set of
>things that I would want to know in trying to figure out
>what's going on.

The sync output from the PC port fires the strobe only. I only had time to set the camera's on board flash to commander mode and the sb800 to "remote". In this configuration and when the sync cord from the strobe is attached, the strobe does not fire.
>
>I would suggest, if you don't mind, doing the following:
>1) Activate the flash on the D200 so it fires (manual
>output), set the SB800 to SU-4 mode. Trip the shutter and
>see if the SB800 fires - to confirm that optical triggering
>works for the SB800.

Yes, I tried this last week and it does work.

>
>2) Repeat #1, but this time do it with the strobe instead of
>the SB800. This will confirm optical triggering of the
>strobe.

K, we've established that this is not possible with the current set up


>
>3) Connect the SB800 via a sync cable to the D200, and strip
>the shutter. Do this with the on-camera flash in commander
>mode, master mode, firing mode, or flipped off entirely.
>This info will confirm that there is sync output on the D200
>(assuming the SB800 fires in any of these four tests) and
>that it fires the SB800.
>
To do this would require me to go to the store and purchase a cord. But yes, I see your logic and seems like a good idea.


>4) Repeat #3 using the other strobe. VERY IMPORTANT to
>ensure that this strobe using a low sync voltage (<5V)> I am
>NOT a strobe expert, but I have read a fair amount recently
>as I am buying some strobes myself at this time, and there
>is clearly concern that strobes using higher sync voltages
>can damage the camera!
>

noted.


>-- If neither the SB800 nor the strobe fire with any of the
>four flash modes on the D200 described above, then I would
>wonder if there is a problem with the sync output on your
>D200 and that's the thing to sort out next. If _either_ does
>fire at any time, then we will know which of the two (or
>both) works via cable sync, and which flash modes on the
>D200 work to fire via sync cable. I would expect a cabled
>sync to fire regardless of how the D200's intergral flash is
>set up, but maybe we will find out that is not the case. I
>cannot test any of this myself as I have a D2X and not D200,
>but I could try with my D70 to confirm your findings once we
>have them - the D70 has a commander, but not master, mode.
>
>If you have the chance to do the above, and post the results
>(or email me directly if you want), I'd be happy to discuss
>what you found and see if I can help you figure out what the
>next step should be.
>
>Good luck.
>nl

Thank you so much for your help. I wish I could post the results, but as these products have not yet hit the market, I can't share them. I'm new using flash and just barely getting my feet wet with studio stuff so I'm very much winging it. I've bought myself an extension until next week for these shots so I'll play around with more settings as I have time (the set up is at a different location from my current one.)

Thanks again!!

  

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nl Basic MemberThu 20-Apr-06 01:35 AM
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#8. "RE: SB-800 & D200 Quick Crash Course: Very Specific Sit"
In response to Reply # 7


West Hartford, US
          


>It may well support optical triggering, but it would require
>an additional accessory to do so. I got a simple lighting
>kit—softbox, strobe, model lamp, stand...just the basics. So
>I've been firing these with the included sync cord directly
>to my d200.

I assume the "included sync cord" is connect to the PC output on the D200 then...
this is the port into which sync cables are connected. (The PC has nothing to do with "personal computers", btw).

I cannot find anything in the D200 manual that specifies whether the sync cable output is disabled for some reason when you use the pop-up flash. Again, I'd be surprised if that were the case....suppose you try firing the strobe via the sync cable with the flash off, and presumably that works, and then with the flash on in manual, TTL, and commander modes, and let me know if the strobe fires in all these cases. Don't have the SB800 around at this time to avoid complications.


>
>Here's the model more or less:
>http://www.boothphoto.com/lkits.cfm?P=43
>

That's literally all the manual said 1/250. Anything
>slower and I get either a totally washed out white image or
>a black bar.

I admit to not understanding this. Assuming that the room is reasonably lighteded,
eg that an exposure of 1/125 (for example) would not result in a totally washed out image, I am surprised that firing a strobe (the duration of flash being much less than 1/125) should not give this result.


>
>The sync output from the PC port fires the strobe only. I
>only had time to set the camera's on board flash to
>commander mode and the sb800 to "remote". In this
>configuration and when the sync cord from the strobe is
>attached, the strobe does not fire.
>>


>>I would suggest, if you don't mind, doing the following:
>>1) Activate the flash on the D200 so it fires (manual
>>output), set the SB800 to SU-4 mode. Trip the shutter and
>>see if the SB800 fires - to confirm that optical triggering
>>works for the SB800.
>
>Yes, I tried this last week and it does work.

Good. So we know the SB800 operates properly with optical syncing. This would mean that if you can get the strobe to fire, and put the SB800 into SU-4 mode, you would be all set, I think.

nl

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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