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Subject: "Grainy photos from D40" Previous topic | Next topic
lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Sat 20-Sep-08 04:38 PM
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"Grainy photos from D40"


Reno, US
          

Help me! I'm getting consistently grainy photos from my D40 and I'm about to lose it! I have checked that my ISO is at 200 and that it's not motion blur. What else could it be? Here's one of the most recent photos that I took: http://flickr.com/photos/lovetree27/2872255993/
Thanks,

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
dclarhorn Moderator
20th Sep 2008
1
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
20th Sep 2008
2
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
glennaa11 Silver Member
20th Sep 2008
3
     Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
20th Sep 2008
4
          Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
benlawton
21st Sep 2008
6
               Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
21st Sep 2008
8
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
20th Sep 2008
5
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
JDMils
21st Sep 2008
9
     Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
21st Sep 2008
10
          Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
lovetree27
22nd Sep 2008
11
               Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
22nd Sep 2008
12
                    Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
JDMils
22nd Sep 2008
13
                         Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
22nd Sep 2008
14
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
ruca2k8
21st Sep 2008
7
Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
lovetree27
22nd Sep 2008
15
     Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
blw Moderator
22nd Sep 2008
16
     Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
22nd Sep 2008
17
          Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
lovetree27
22nd Sep 2008
18
               Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
22nd Sep 2008
19
                    Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
lovetree27
22nd Sep 2008
20
                         Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
bclaff Silver Member
22nd Sep 2008
21
                         Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
blw Moderator
24th Sep 2008
22
                              Reply message RE: Grainy photos from D40
lovetree27
24th Sep 2008
23

dclarhorn Moderator In depth knowledge and high level skills in a variety of areas including landscape Nikonian since 31st Mar 2002Sat 20-Sep-08 05:03 PM
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#1. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 0


Berwyn Heights, US
          

To be honest, I don't see it. I downloaded your large size and it looks like I'd expect. You'll notice some noise in darker areas, but this one looks pretty normal.

What size are you viewing it on your monitor? If you blow it up past 100%, you will start seeing it more pixelated.

Dan L.
http://www.danlarussophotography.com/

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Sat 20-Sep-08 05:39 PM
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#2. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 0


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

Like Dan I see nothing unexpected.
This is a very high dynamic range scene, details in the shadows will have some noise.
Such images need some post processing work and the PP work might include some noise reduction.


Bill
P.S. - You many want to fill in more of your profile, including double-checking gender!

Visit me at My site

  

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glennaa11 Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Aug 2004Sat 20-Sep-08 05:58 PM
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#3. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 2
Sat 20-Sep-08 06:06 PM by glennaa11

Arlington, US
          

the only "grain" I see is when I look at the 3000x2000 pixel size image. I would guess pretty much any shot at that large size will look similar.

as others have noted there is lot of range here. The sky is soooo bright white. I would certainly crop most of that out and focus on the levels of the main subject. If you had this photo to take over again I would say try to set the shot up with the focus on the people instead of so much sky. Because of the extreme angle of the sun a little fill flash might help too if you were close enough to the subject.

Glenn
http://picasaweb.google.com/GlennAuve

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Sat 20-Sep-08 06:14 PM
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#4. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 3


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Glenn,

I think perhaps you didn't look at the "original size" image which is 3000x2400.
Clearly Tiffany has cropped/resized for an 8x10 print.
Since the D40 only does 3008x2000 she must have up-sized the image by at least 20%; this will increase apparent noise.

Sure, the sky is bright, but so is the sun on the bride's dress, and that is unavoidable.


Bill

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benlawton Registered since 10th Dec 2007Sun 21-Sep-08 09:06 AM
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#6. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 4
Sun 21-Sep-08 09:08 AM by benlawton

Stafford, GB
          

>Glenn,
>
>I think perhaps you didn't look at the "original
>size" image which is 3000x2400.
>Clearly Tiffany has cropped/resized for an 8x10 print.
>Since the D40 only does 3008x2000 she must have up-sized the
>image by at least 20%; this will increase apparent noise.
>
>Sure, the sky is bright, but so is the sun on the bride's
>dress, and that is unavoidable.
>
>
>Bill
>
>
When talking about print size from Megapixels, what is the assumed dpi? Is it 300?

The photo looks good to me, if anything I'd say add a 0.1 pixel gausian blur onto it but thats as good if not better than what I get from my D40, even in bright sunlight ISO400 and above shows a reasonable amount of 'grain' when viewed at 100%, although nothing unacceptable and in print they look fine.

Ben

EDIT: I don't mean megapixels I mean dimensions don't I? Far far too early to be awake on a Sunday!

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Sun 21-Sep-08 02:51 PM
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#8. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 6


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Ben,

From the aspect ratio of the crop I assume it's an 8x10 at 300ppi but it could be a 16x20 at 150ppi (but 150ppi is pretty low).


Bill

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Sat 20-Sep-08 06:27 PM
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#5. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 0


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

I reworked this slightly so people can see what we're talking about.
(I have made some adjustments, this is not exactly what you posted on Flickr)



On the top is the 8x10 image resized for Nikonians.
On the bottom is a 100% crop of the area including the faces.
(100% is about 3x closer than you would examine an 8x10 print)


Bill

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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JDMils Registered since 23rd Jul 2008Sun 21-Sep-08 11:05 PM
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#9. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 5


AU
          

Bill's close-up of the two faces does look grainy to me. I think this is what is tormenting Tiffany. Is Active-D lighting in use here?

If all else fails, you could reset your camera to factory defaults to see if it is a rogue setting which is causing this.


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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Sun 21-Sep-08 11:17 PM
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#10. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 9


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Julian,

Remember, these are 100% crops of something that was already up-sized at least 20%.
At 120%+ this is a very aggressive inspection of a shadow area.
I see nothing at all wrong here.


Bill

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lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Mon 22-Sep-08 01:41 AM
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#11. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 10


Reno, US
          

Bill,
Thanks for all your input(As well as all others who have replied). I really appreciate it. Torment is a perfect word I'm fairly new to the digital photography thing but I really enjoy it and hope to pursue it further. As far as the upsize thing goes, are you talking about the automatic "upsize" that happens in photoshop after cropping? Other than that there has been no upsize to the image. I'm wondering if haze and UV might have something to do with my issue, also?? Northern Nevada is full of it right now. The input of fellow Nikonians is appreciated-please feel free to critique whatever images on my flickr-I welcome constructive criticism as it can only help my images!

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 02:25 AM
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#12. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 11


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

It seems you were unaware of the up-sizing you performed.
You started with a 3008x2000 pixel image.
(I'll assume you only cropped 8 pixels off to get 3000x2000.
If you cropped more then you enlarged the image even more than 25%)
You resized it to 3000x2400 at 300dpi to create an 8x10.
Probably you unchecked "Scale Styles" on "Image Resize" and entered "Document Size" numbers.
If you had specified a resolution of 250 instead of 300 you would have gotten a 2500x2000 pixel image.

I'm only guessing, but you did something like the above.
This isn't "wrong" but you should understand the consequences.
By "blowing up" the image you accentuate noise, among other things.

IMO, haze and UV played no role in this image.
You simply have a large dynamic range and getting great quality in the shadow areas will be impossible.

I think that picture will make a fine 8x10; but not a good 16x20.


Bill


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JDMils Registered since 23rd Jul 2008Mon 22-Sep-08 02:39 AM
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#13. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 12


AU
          

Bill,

What would you advise Tiffany to do if she had this shot all over again in order to get good quality and colour?


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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 03:17 AM
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#14. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 13


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Julian,

This type of photography is not my area of expertise but...

A graduated neutral density filter to reduce the bright sky and some fill flash would have helped.

Basically, we would want to reduce the dynamic range of the image; so the shadows would not be so deep.

But I think the original shot is pretty well done provided we don't overreach and try to make too large a print.


Bill

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ruca2k8 Registered since 27th Feb 2008Sun 21-Sep-08 12:43 PM
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#7. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 0


Cascais, PT
          

I really don't see anything I don't like.

Could it be you're viewing at 100% on your monitor and thinking of the noise you will see at print size?

Your monitor shows around 72 ppi, and a decent print resolution starts at around 3 times that (240-300 ppi-pixels per inch as opposed to a printer's dots per inch).

So things may be worse-looking on screen than they really are...

Rui

  

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lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Mon 22-Sep-08 03:40 AM
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#15. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 7


Reno, US
          

Again, the only resizing that I did is by using the crop tool at 8 X 10 in the options window. Should I have cropped another way to avoid the upsize thing? I'm still working on my composition - I suppose getting it right while shooting would have been the real answer, huh?

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 10:27 AM
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#16. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 15


Richmond, US
          

I'm now browing from my (very slow) phone, so I won't look at the original, but I'm pretty sure that your original was 3000x2400, which is not a result you can get by *only* cropping. The grain-like result does look to me like something created by upsizing, ad not using the bicubic sharper option (which is what I use). Go back to you raw file or even original jpeg - I am pretty sure it doesn't look like this.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 01:16 PM
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#17. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 15


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

Well... this has turned into a software question.
So... what program did you use?


Bill

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lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Mon 22-Sep-08 02:59 PM
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#18. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 17


Reno, US
          

Well if it's really a software question-I'm better off than I thought! I use Photoshop CS3. I open it up in the program and immediately crop using the crop tool to wear I think it should be. My options are set to 8 X 10. That is the only sizing I'm doing right here. I will then later go and resize depending on what the print preference is.

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 03:59 PM
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#19. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 18


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

Hmmm... In CS2 my crop tool only crops (takes pixels off the edges) and never resizes, but perhaps this behavior is controlled by an option.
OTOH, Image Size can, and usually does, up-size or down-size the image.

Are you saying you only did a crop?

It seems more like you did a crop and then resized for a resolution of 300, which up-sized your image.


Bill

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lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Mon 22-Sep-08 09:48 PM
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#20. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 19


Reno, US
          

Okay. I think I've found some of my problem... The original files I'm getting are only 10.27 by 6 something. When I crop to 8X10-it's upsizing the file. Don't know why I didn't think of that before! So how do I effectively crop and size it to print at 8X10?

  

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bclaff Silver Member Awarded for multiple contributions for the Resources Nikonian since 26th Oct 2004Mon 22-Sep-08 11:10 PM
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#21. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 20


Vancouver (WA USA not Canada), US
          

Tiffany,

Yeah. Don't take the physical size so literally.

For example, let's assume your original crop was 2500x2000 pixels
If printed at a resolution of 300 then that's "only" (2500/300) x (2000/200) or 8 1/3" x 6 2/3"
But if you print the same image at a resolution of 250 then it's (2500/250) x (2000/250) or 10" x 8"

Generally you don't want to print so large that the resolution drops below some number.
I prefer to keep it above 180.

If the number is too high then you're just wasting resolution and will have too big a file.
But if it's too small then the quality of the print won't be very good.

The problem is, you can only up-size a limited amount; and when you up-size your sharpness will suffer and noise will be more apparent.

So generally you will crop and either leave the resolution alone or down-size because you're no printing that large.

Does this make some more sense to you now?


Bill

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 24-Sep-08 02:01 PM
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#22. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 20


Richmond, US
          

You do the crop, you'll "get" a smaller file, perhaps you will have something like 2500x1800 or so. Image->Image Size will show you something smaller than 8x10, if you look. Do all of your editing, then Image -> Image Size, check maintain aspect ratio, and then change the size. Be sure to use one of the options for interpolation - I use bicubic sharper. Then do your sharpening for the print and send it to the printer.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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lovetree27 Registered since 10th Jul 2008Wed 24-Sep-08 02:35 PM
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#23. "RE: Grainy photos from D40"
In response to Reply # 22


Reno, US
          

Thanks again to all for your input. I really do think that the cropping is my issue here. I will be working on that more this weekend-so many photos to take, so little time! This is a collage I did from our session. http://flickr.com/photos/lovetree27/2885259660/ I used smart objects instead of cropping for this one and am thinking it helped. I sent it off to the printer so we'll see what comes back.
Thanks again, guys!

  

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