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Subject: "D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?" Previous topic | Next topic
Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sat 28-Jan-06 02:31 PM
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"D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"


US
          

Hi there,

This is my first posting to this site. I'm sure I'll be buying the D50, so I think this is the right forum to post this question. If not, please let me know where would be more appropriate.

I have done a ton of reading before buying my first DSLR. I have made the decision that I'll go with the D50 body, but I'm split on which lens (or lenses) to start with.

A bit of background on my photography experience. I would call myself an intermediate amateur, if there's such a thing. In the 80s and 90s I used a Pentax Program Plus exclusively, shooting mostly with an SMC Pentax-A 35-70mm zoom (f3.5~4.5). I always enjoyed this lens and found it useful under a variety of situations. I also used a Pentax-A 50mm (f1.7). Again, I found it to be a great lens. During those years I didn't shoot a lot of film as I just could never seem to afford the processing.

For the last two years I've been using a Kodak EasyShare DX6440 (4 Megapixel) with a Variogon Schneider-Kreuznach lens. I've found it delivers great results with a minimum of fuss (i.e. my wife loves it but has never read the manual) but I feel as though I've outgrown it.

So now I'm ready for a DSLR.

A couple of additional points:

1) Money is still an issue. I'm hoping to do my initial DSLR kit for around $1100 U.S. That needs to include the body, lens and memory card.

2) My photographic tastes (beyond the usual family and pet photos) run from architecture and landscape through to close-up work indoors. It's the macro work where I find the Kodak really falls short. The blinking thing just can't find anything to focus on half the time.

3) I'm a cyclist and a day-hiker. I want a kit that will be reasonably light, but rugged (thus my desire for a Nikon) and still be as useful in the field as on my work table for macro shots. I've already bought a Lowepro Off Trail 1 beltpack, which I feel will be perfect for my travel style.

4) I have never had a picture (film or digital) blown up beyond 8x10. I doubt I ever will. I want my pics mostly for digital viewing, with the idea being to print only the best of the best as either 4x6 or 5x7.

5) I can and will do some post processing on the computer, but don't want to have to spend all my free time doing that. i.e. I want to focus on developing my own skills and maximizing what the D50 can do with its own tools and whatever lens is on it.

After doing significant reading of reviews I am completely split on which lens to start with. Part of me thinks the 18-55 kit lens that comes with the D50 will be just fine. It's not so expensive that I'll be afraid to take it with me... and that's something I really want to do more of. It's light and yet still reasonably solid from what I gather. And, most importantly, the pics it produces seem more or less to be suitable for my tastes and printing needs, as noted above. Plus... being DSLR I can always add a better/different lens later.

However, it seems the 18-70 lens that comes with the D70s also gets extremely high marks. It appears to be a better made lens overall, but is it *that* much better? The only exception being (and this seems to come up a lot) is some softness and vignetting at the wide end.

So... here are my two thoughts.

a) Get the D50 with 18-55 kit lens and add-on the 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED. I can either get the larger lens with the D50 or pick it up later. Leaving it for now would probably mean a larger or more memory cards now.

b) Get the D50 body with the 18-70 lens. That would mean it would be the only lens for now and I'd be starting with a smaller/slower memory card. (and then still possibly getting the 55-200 later)

I'm trying to maximize what I get for what I am able to spend right now, with the idea being able to pick up another lens and/or more memory later.

Sorry for such a long first posting. I hope the information I've provided gives some idea about my needs and experience. And from that I'm hoping someone can offer suggestions as to which lens route would be best suited for me. And if that's neither option a or b as noted above, I'm happy to entertain any other ideas!

Thanks in advance,
Allan B.

  

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Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
Tony B
28th Jan 2006
1
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Apotome
28th Jan 2006
2
     Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
henlin
28th Jan 2006
5
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Apotome
29th Jan 2006
7
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blw Moderator
28th Jan 2006
3
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Apotome
28th Jan 2006
4
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blw Moderator
28th Jan 2006
6
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Apotome
29th Jan 2006
9
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blw Moderator
29th Jan 2006
11
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larrym105 Gold Member
29th Jan 2006
12
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Cruiser2091
29th Jan 2006
8
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Apotome
29th Jan 2006
10
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blw Moderator
30th Jan 2006
15
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eleventyone
29th Jan 2006
13
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Apotome
29th Jan 2006
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eleventyone
30th Jan 2006
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edmun
30th Jan 2006
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          Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
Cruiser2091
30th Jan 2006
18
          Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
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30th Jan 2006
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eleventyone
31st Jan 2006
26
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Rickard_F
30th Jan 2006
19
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Rickard_F
30th Jan 2006
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Apotome
30th Jan 2006
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Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
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30th Jan 2006
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30th Jan 2006
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02nd Feb 2006
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blw Moderator
02nd Feb 2006
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Reply message RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?
blw Moderator
30th Jan 2006
22
Reply message Very near final decision
Apotome
12th Feb 2006
29
Reply message RE: Very near final decision
blw Moderator
12th Feb 2006
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Reply message RE: Very near final decision
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13th Feb 2006
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13th Feb 2006
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Tony B Registered since 31st Mar 2002Sat 28-Jan-06 02:52 PM
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#1. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 0


Eau Claire, US
          


>a) Get the D50 with 18-55 kit lens and add-on the 55-200mm
>f/4-5.6G ED. I can either get the larger lens with the D50
>or pick it up later. Leaving it for now would probably mean
>a larger or more memory cards now.
>
>b) Get the D50 body with the 18-70 lens. That would mean
>it would be the only lens for now and I'd be starting with a
>smaller/slower memory card. (and then still possibly
>getting the 55-200 later)

I haven't used either the 18-55 or the 18-70, but I'll give you my opinion...

I have used Film SLRs for about 15 years now, from my old Pentax K-1000 to a Crummy Sears SLR, a Pentax and now my 2nd Nikon body.. My N80 I just sold was by far my favorite...

I think the 18-55 range is just a bit too short. It's effectively a 28-80 on a film SLR. I had a 28-80 on my Pentax, and when I moved to Nikon I bought the 28-105 rather then the kit 28-80 based on the great reviews. I never regretted it. That extra 80-105 range is really usefull for me, and I really liked the feel of the better build quality.

It seems it's the same situation you have with the 18-55 vs 18-70. Personally I'd go with the 18-70 for the better optical quality, better build, and better focal range. People seem to really like the 18-70.. In addition, you will know your lens is not limiting you. I'd invest the most you can afford into your lenses. You'll be likely changing bodies in the future, but don't want to have to purchase new lenses once your photography and your eyes improve and begin to see what you are missing with the better glass.

The 18-70 should suit you find while you determine what other types of lenses you'll need, and then go from there... My 28-105 is on my camera 80-90% of the time.. it's my workhorse range... I only pull out the longer zoom 70-300mm when I really need it (but could easily get by without it).

My 50mm 1.8 is my 2nd favorite lens.. the main reason is because its so darn sharp. It's just great.. and allows me to shoot in very low light without flash which I need to do at my daughters gymnastics meets. And as an added bonus, it's only around $100.

Go with the better quality 18-70 for your main lens, and purchase future lenses once you determine what other focal ranges you find your self wishing your lens would cover, or you may find you want/need a faster prime or zoom lens than the 55-200.

I'll tell you, right now if I had to choose lenses all over again, I'd still get the 28-105 range, but be looking for faster glass... I'd also have saved for a 80-200VR instead of my 70-300, because I really find the faster lenses more useful.

Sorry for the rambling...

Cheers,

Tony B.

Cheers,

Tony B

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sat 28-Jan-06 07:27 PM
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#2. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

>Go with the better quality 18-70 for your main lens, and
>purchase future lenses once you determine what other focal
>ranges you find your self wishing your lens would cover, or
>you may find you want/need a faster prime or zoom lens than
>the 55-200.

Tony, thanks for your comments. I've been thinking about it more this afternoon and I think you're right. I want to enjoy this purchase right off the bat and not feel like "oh, I shoulda got that better lens." I can always get away with a smaller/slower memory card for now... that won't become obsolete and it's cheaper everyday to buy more of those. So I think the initial outlay of cash is better aimed at that better lens.

>Sorry for the rambling...

You're apologizing for rambling? Did you see my original posting? LOL

Thanks again,
Allan B.

  

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henlin Basic MemberSat 28-Jan-06 11:31 PM
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#5. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 2


US
          

Welcome to Nikonians Allan!

You might also want to check the For Sale forum for excellent condition 18-70 lenses. I think you need to be a silver member to access that though.

-Henry

-Henry

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 12:15 AM
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#7. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

>Welcome to Nikonians Allan!
>
>You might also want to check the
>For
>Sale forum> for excellent condition 18-70 lenses. I think
>you need to be a silver member to access that though.

Hi Henry,

Thanks for the good advice (and the warm welcome). I am able to access and read that forum. And indeed there are several of the 18-70 lenses there. My only concern then becomes shipping and taxes as I live in Canada. Unfortunately there are times when even a bargain basement price on a used item becomes unattractive due to the added costs of getting it here. If I could find someone in Canada selling it used it might become a REALLY good idea.

Thanks!
Allan B.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 28-Jan-06 10:28 PM
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#3. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

The first thing to do is to consult the images you already have from your Kodak, because there's a fairly significant difference in range between the 18-55 and 18-70. It doesn't sound like much, but it is. I have a Canon S110 P&S, and it has only a short zoom range, and I have often found it way TOO short to be useful.

Your Kodak has the equivalent of a 35-135mm lens; the 18-55 is the equivalent of 28-80 and the 18-70 is the equivalent of 28-105. (The equivalents are field-of-view, sorry for confusing things, but we've got to get the various things on the same units.) If you go back to your images and find that many of them are taken at 135mm or near that, you pretty much have your answer: you need something with telephoto range. In your scenarios, that probably means the 18-55 + 55-200.

The 18-70 is a clearly superior lens, but at 8x10 and on the web you won't find much difference even so. You also won't see much (if any) of its "softness". (It's only soft when compared to the legendary lenses.) I think either of the mid-range lenses will more than suit your purposes for quality.

None of the lenses you considered really are macro lenses. The least expensive way to go about this from where you are is to add a Nikon 4T closeup lens to the front of the 55-200. This trades off infinity focus for surprisingly good macro capability at a very reasonable price ($40). Obviously you can unthread it to do non-macro work again.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sat 28-Jan-06 11:24 PM
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#4. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 3


US
          

>The first thing to do is to consult the images you already
>have from your Kodak,
>Your Kodak has the equivalent of a 35-135mm lens; the 18-55
>is the equivalent of 28-80 and the 18-70 is the equivalent
>of 28-105. If you go back to your images and find
>that many of them are taken at 135mm or near that, you
>pretty much have your answer:

Brian, that was an excellent suggestion, thanks! Yes, you're right, some of them were taken at nearly the full 135mm (I never use the digital zoom). In a random sample of about 20 images, I found about 3 or 4 that were zoomed in like that. Others were down in the 35 - 45 range. Oddly, I didn't see much inbetween.

>you need something with
>telephoto range. In your scenarios, that probably means the
>18-55 + 55-200.

I think I like the idea of the way these two lenses seem to compliment each other. I know I want a fairly short lens for the indoor family and pet shots and for day-to-day use. But given that I'm hoping to do a lot more outdoor shooting I also think a longer zoom will be beneficial. Which means I've basically reversed what I had decided in my last posting. LOL

>The 18-70 is a clearly superior lens, but at 8x10 and on the
>web you won't find much difference even so. You also won't
>see much (if any) of its "softness".

Frankly, it would have to be an extraordinary picture for me to even think about having an 8x10 printed. There's the cost of the print, then the frame, then finding the hammer and a nail, then digging out the step ladder and so on and so on and so on. I'm just not that motivated.

But seriously, I can see having 80% of prints done as 4x6 and perhaps 20% as 5x7. So yes, I think the two lesser lenses are probably fine.

>(It's only soft when
>compared to the legendary lenses.) I think either of the
>mid-range lenses will more than suit your purposes for
>quality.

I actually wonder if I'd be able to see the difference even if I spent the money on the 18-70. Not that I'm a complete yutz when it comes to what makes a good picture, simply that I'm not experienced enough nor fussy enough to notice.

>None of the lenses you considered really are macro lenses.
>The least expensive way to go about this from where you are
>is to add a Nikon 4T closeup lens to the front of the
>55-200. This trades off infinity focus for surprisingly
>good macro capability at a very reasonable price ($40).

I hadn't thought of that. Another good idea, thanks!

So now I'm back to where I was when I left the camera shop last night. I figured then that the kit lens would be more than enough for me, for now. Again, keeping in mind that although my Pentax gear was reasonably good I never got much experience with it. I'm sort of looking at my DSLR as starting over, trying to learn the basics of good photography again. So maybe using a starter lens to better understand what I need next isn't such a bad idea.

Thanks again!
Allan B.

To the moderators: My apologies... after I started this thread I realized there is a dedicated Lens forum on this site. If this thread is best moved there, I don't mind. I wanted feedback specific to the D50 which is why I put it here, but then the question is really about lenses.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 28-Jan-06 11:59 PM
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#6. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 4


Richmond, US
          

Your specifications are very realistic, so you're not leaving respondents with impossible problems to solve!

Most folks can't tell the difference between a lens in the 30th percentile of sharpness from the 75th percentile on a 4x6 print, as long as the rest of the chain (focusing, exposure, processing, printing, etc) are equalized. Of course, if you blow it up to 11x14, all bets are off, let alone the door-sized things that some folks do...

Another thing you should do with your Kodak images is to single out the ones at 120mm (equiv) and over. Are you as close as you'd wanted? How much closer would you want to be? Will your "stalking" skills relative to the subjects (your kids, birds, sports players) get better, or are you kept at specific distances by field boundaries, legal limitations, or the sheer speed of young kids? You may be able to decide by looking at them whether or not you need something that's 300mm or 500mm equivalent. If you find that the 135mm shots have little specks of dogs/birds/kids in the middle of them, that's a sure sign that your subject really demands a longer lens or better access or both.

So here's another idea to consider... if you're 135mm is way too short, consider the 70-300 G. It yields 450mm equivalent at a reasonable price (less than the 55-200, in fact). You will read about how "bad" this lens is at the long end, but frankly, it's not so bad on an absolute scale (there hasn't been a BAD Nikkor since the early 1970s, only some that were merely decent). Given your criteria above you'll have to try hard to find out how "bad" it is. Some folks would argue that the gap between 55 and 70mm is large, and for some folks that's a problem - but your investigation already shows that you don't use that range much anyway. The 70-300 requires a 6T closeup instead of the 4T, but in exchange yields even greater magnification. I posted images from this lens's relative in this thread. (My lens is the 70-300 EDIF, which is *slightly* better than the 70-300 G at double the price.)

And finally, there note that there are actually TWO lens fora - one for Nikkors and one for 3rd party lenses.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 01:54 AM
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#9. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 6


US
          

>Your specifications are very realistic, so you're not
>leaving respondents with impossible problems to solve!

I appreciate you saying that. I was trying to be realistic and yet, I still think it's possible to come up with a solution that will be fun and pleasing to use.

>Another thing you should do with your Kodak images is to
>single out the ones at 120mm (equiv) and over. Are you as
>close as you'd wanted?

Your questions (and your link below to those two very nice pics) lead me to go back through some of the stuff I've shot on the Kodak over the last two years. I slapped together this page to give some examples of the type of work I've done, but want to explore further with the D50.

http://www.apotome.com/pics/easyshare.htm

The first pic on that page was shot at around 100mm. The second at 135. I'm happy with the framing on both. They are shown here uncropped and with no other post processing applied. Picture 3 and 5 have been GIMP'd. The 4th one was a "lay on my stomach" shot on a cold drizzly day in November, but I really like the overall balance of the elements... and the green of the LEGO pieces really shows against the drab grass.

>that the 135mm shots have little specks of dogs/birds/kids
>in the middle of them, that's a sure sign that your subject
>really demands a longer lens or better access or both.

At home I don't have issues chasing kids.... since we have none. LOL Tracking down the dog and cats for pics is the goal. Looked over my Kodak pics. No small specs where there should be big animals.

>So here's another idea to consider... if you're 135mm is way
>too short, consider the 70-300 G.

I was under the impression from the guy at the camera store that this lens (quality-wise) was a step below the kit lens for the D50. Is that an exageration?

>I posted images
>from this lens's relative
>in
>this thread>. (My lens is the 70-300 EDIF, which is
>*slightly* better than the 70-300 G at double the price.)

If the 70-300 G can obtain something even close to that, I'd be happy.

>And finally, there note that there are actually TWO lens
>fora - one for Nikkors and one for 3rd party lenses.

Ah.

Thanks again!
Allan B.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 29-Jan-06 02:39 AM
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#11. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 9


Richmond, US
          

After looking at your photos, I think you should skip the idea of telephoto zooms and go straight to a dedicated macro lens. An 18-55 and a moderately long macro lens look like they would suit you best. The 18-55 can get the LEGO shot, and all of the others are true macros. I'm not sure it's in your budget, though.

> > ... consider the 70-300 G.

I was under the impression from the guy at the camera store that this lens (quality-wise) was a step below the kit lens for the D50. Is that an exageration?


I've never used the 18-55. However, I own the 70-300 ED, and I can assure you that the 70-300 G is optically within a whisker of it. The main difference is a *slight* change in color rendering, due to the single ED element; the rest of the optical formulation is said to be the same. The main reason for the big difference in price is build: the ED is much more solid and will take much more lugging around, although it is still not built like the professional-grade 70-200 VR. (Nor does it have the latter's $1500 price tag.) In your 8x10-and-smaller world, I seriously doubt you will ever have someone say "oh gee, look how bad that 70-300G one is..." Both of them have the reputation of being "bad" over 200mm, but the pics I posted are from well longer than that, and they sure look OK to me.

Having said all that, I don't know if it's a step or step down from the 18-55. You can see the images from it, and given your realistic criteria, I doubt you would care which is "better."




OK, having said all that, you've got two viable ways to go already. A dedicated macro of at least 90mm is a third way (paired with the 18-55), but it's likely to cost significantly more. There are 90mm from Tamron, 105mm from Sigma, Tokina and Nikon - all are in the range of $500+, but they are purpose-built instruments. There are (much) less expensive 50mm and 55mm ones from those same vendors, but they won't let you approach bugs like your moths or this sphinx moth because they require you to be REALLY close in (two inches). Even the sphinx moth was grabbed - very luckily - with a 70-300 + 6T though, so these are clearly not necessary items.

Notice that here we got into lenses that are sufficiently expensive that the third parties can be *significantly* less expensive than Nikon. They have basic lenses too, but the price differentials are low enough (sometimes zero or even negative) that there's no point in looking elsewhere. But after you get abroad a bit...

Also, there is a forum here dedicated to macro photography...

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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larrym105 Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 03:15 AM
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#12. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 4


Scotia, US
          

I think you're on the right course - the kit lens is just a great little starter lens. Ken Rockwell did a nice little write up on it (compares it to the 18-70 you're thinking about). You can see the review at <http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/1855.htm>. It won't dissapoint you compared to the 18-70.

Since your review of 20 random photos does not have a predimninat amount of telephoto shots I would recommend you hold off on the 55-200 - just start eith the 18-55 kit lens and you'll get most of what you're currently shooting. There are definitely better Nikon long zooms out there (the 70-300 G looks like a better starter longer zoom to me - but as someone else pointed out don't expect really fast focusing, especially in low light).

Once you've been using the D50 and 18-55 for a while you'll understand what you want for your next step better. Each person I've had the pleasure if interacting with seems to settle on some very specific things they decide they want in a lens (some are more focused on sharpness, others on ability to shoot in low light and some folks really watch focusing speed), but you don't really know what the specifics that will tickle your fancy until you really spend time with a variety of lenses sort of like feeling out the territory.

Hope this helps,
-LarryM

Thanks,
-LarryM

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Cruiser2091 Registered since 05th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 12:51 AM
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#8. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 0


AU
          

I'm replying because I also purchased a Pentax back in "85" with the same lens, more recently though I used a digital P&S. Now I'm the happy owner of a D50.
I thought at the time the main reason for the D50 was for snapshots of my grandchildren!!
Anyway the point I wish to make is this:
I've found the D50 does so much more than I've previously been used to and it does everything so much better that I take a lot of shots that I would never have taken before.
I live by a lake so plenty of Pelican shots in flight, full frame shots of Kangaroos, sunset & sunrise over the water plus the normal family shots.
So, who knows what direction our hobby may take. Unless you are sure of what you need start off with the basics. You will soon find out whatever else you need.
In my case I stared with the 18-55 kit lens, soon after I added the 70-300G. The 70-300 was an inexpensive way of having a little fun with the wildlife but I soon found out the benefit of a longer focal length. The downside was that the 70-300 did not focus quick enough on the Pelicans. Within 2 weeks of buying the 70-300 I ordered a 18-200VR.
I find the 18-200 good in as much as I dont have to change lens in the dark or poor light or by the waters edge. The VR is good for the grandchildren as well. I will now buy a 50mm f1.8 as I expect it will offer better clarity when needed.
Anyway we are all different individuals with different needs and sometimes todays needs are different from tomorrows.
Best of luck

Greg

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 01:58 AM
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#10. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 8


US
          

>I'm replying because I also purchased a Pentax back in "85"
>with the same lens, more recently though I used a digital
>P&S. Now I'm the happy owner of a D50.

Sounds like you've taken a similar route to my own. I will be getting my D50 in about 6 or 8 weeks.

>I've found the D50 does so much more than I've previously
>been used to and it does everything so much better that I
>take a lot of shots that I would never have taken before.

I'm really glad to hear you say this. In looking at the differences between it and the D70s or even some of the more expensive bodies, I just kept coming back to the 50. I like the way it seems to have lots of features, but also lots of automation. I'm happy living with both.

>In my case I stared with the 18-55 kit lens, soon after I
>added the 70-300G. The 70-300 was an inexpensive way of
>having a little fun with the wildlife but I soon found out
>the benefit of a longer focal length. The downside was that
>the 70-300 did not focus quick enough on the Pelicans.

I'm not sure how critical speed of focusing will be for me. I've never really shot wildlife but more often landscape or architecture. So the 70-300 (even with a lag in focusing) might be just fine for me.

Best regards,
Allan B.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 30-Jan-06 05:08 AM
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#15. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 10


Richmond, US
          

Focusing speed of the 70-300 is not its strength, especially when deployed on the consumer bodies like the D50 or my D100. However, this "screwdriver" lens is still a lot snappier than manual focus ever is, even so. With some skill, it's possible to track flying birds and running dogs, even with the slower focusing bodies. You have to use the dynamic focus mode, AF-C mode, and have to be fairly well practiced. You have to avoid missing the initial lock-on, because in that case the AF hunts maximum to minimum and back - and that takes a good two seconds while you're totally out of control.

Your samples didn't show anything at all like this, and landscape and architecture put no premium on focusing speed. But ... if this is what you're wanting to do, you need to be aware that doing a lot of this will result in (a) doing a LOT of practice, (b) a lot of frustration, or (c) AFS or HSM (Sigma) lenses mounted on a D2-series or D200 body. I have both a D2h and a D100 as well as AFS and HSM lenses, and it's the body that makes the biggest difference, not just because it has a much better "screwdriver" motor, but because it has more advanced focusing modes to get that initial lock-in. As you can see, vigorous pursuit of wildlife can get expensive in a hurry.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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eleventyone Registered since 29th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 07:57 PM
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#13. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 0


el segundo, US
          

i'm having the same struggle as you, only i'm also debating over the d70s. so i really dont have any input for you because i need some input myself. but i can tell you where to get the best deal (from a place that is actually reputable).

i would get the d50 from adorama... they have the a really good deal going right now. body only for $499, or with the kit lens for $599. get the memory card from newegg.com. a 1gb sandisk SD card is only $64. all in all, that is way less than your anticipated budget.

good luck with your decision.

kelley

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sun 29-Jan-06 11:35 PM
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#14. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 13


US
          

>i'm having the same struggle as you, only i'm also debating
>over the d70s. so i really dont have any input for you
>because i need some input myself.

I looked very carefully at the differences between the D70s body and the D50. I based my decision to get the D50 on my own experience and skills vs. what the cameras could each do. I doubt that I'll miss the extra features of the 70, but instead will hopefully enjoy some of the automated features of the 50. Plus, I like the idea of the SD memory cards and overall I just found one positive review after another for the 50. Not that the 70 gets trashed in reviews, but that the comments about the 50 better matched my own wants.

>but i can tell you where
>to get the best deal (from a place that is actually
>reputable).
>
>i would get the d50 from adorama... they have the a really
>good deal going right now. body only for $499, or with the
>kit lens for $599. get the memory card from newegg.com. a
>1gb sandisk SD card is only $64. all in all, that is way
>less than your anticipated budget.

Unfortunately newegg.com doesn't ship outside of the U.S. I went to Adorama and just for fun I put in the 70-300 zoom lens to see how the price would work out. Yes, it's only $150 U.S. But then it will cost me $38.00 U.S. to have it shipped here. Then I'll pay tax anyway once it arrives, along with a $5 fee to customs to collect the tax. Yes, our government actually has the nerve to charge us a fee to collect tax from us.

So in the end I'm looking at $232 Canadian funds to have that lens sent from the U.S. Or, I can go to my local camera shop and get the same lens for $199 Canadian and pay the tax (no fee) for a grand total of $230 Canadian. LOL So it's actually cheaper to buy it from the store that's located about 200 feet from where I work. And I'm supporting my local retailer.

Sorry, I'm just having a bit of fun with the numbers above, I'm not mocking your suggestion. I really appreciate your input. I just find some of the shipping/tax issues to be funny when it comes to sending things from the U.S. to Canada.

>good luck with your decision.

Same to you Kelley! You'll have to let me know which way you decide.

All the best,
Allan B.

  

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eleventyone Registered since 29th Jan 2006Mon 30-Jan-06 06:34 AM
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#16. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 14


el segundo, US
          

ah, i didnt realize you were in canada! sorry about that

do you know what functions the d70s has that the d50 doesnt? i keep hearing that it lacks some functions but no one ever says exactly what they are (ken rockwell says d70/d70s have 25 functions, d50 has 20. what are those other 5?)... i'd like to know what they are so i can figure out whether they would be important for me to have or if i'd never use them. more than likely, i'll never use them. the only thing i wish the d50 had was the illumination of the top LCD, and maybe the ability to use one of those clip on LCD protector things.

i'm coming from a canon ae-1 program, so i really know nothing about any sort of "modern" SLR and if they are much different (other than the fact that they have auto focus) than my old canon...

  

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edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003Mon 30-Jan-06 06:53 AM
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#17. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 16


eugene, US
          

1: no CLS remote controller built in to control remote flash
2: No Grid on demand (nice for lining up the horizon or copy work)
3: Not as many pictures on a card - D70 gets about 20% more (conflicting infor)
4: No removable plastic screen protector - does not appear to scratch
5: ISO only in stops not 1/3 like D70's
6: Handles moving subjects differently (Not sure how) maybe better
7: Uses SD cards instead of CF
8: One control wheel not 2 (can be advantage as D70 can be moved by accedent)
9: Smaller
10: no hard wired cable release like D70s
12: 420 points used for metering vs 1005
13: Top shutter speed 1/4000 instead of 1/8000
14: No wb fine tuning
15: No depth of field preview button
16: No auto exposure bracketing
17: 2.5 frames per second vs 3
18: Faster camera download to computer with cable

http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/nikon_articles/body/chart/nikon_dslr_chart.html is a chart showing digital camera differences

ledmun

  

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Cruiser2091 Registered since 05th Jan 2006Mon 30-Jan-06 09:10 AM
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#18. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 17


AU
          

I realise that we are getting off the topic but I cant help but add a couple of points to the differences:
Its claimed that D50 has less noise at high ISO, possibly due to the newer image sensor.
It appears to me that those comming from earlier Nikons prefer the D70 because it it similar to their earlier model.
For someone like me who has never owned a Nikon before, the D50 can only be judged on its merits and I find it great.
I see the D70 & D50 as being very very similar,(both plastic) if I wanted to upgrade from my D50 it would have to be to a D200 to appreciate any real difference.
In summing up I dont think one is any better than the other, you have to spend some time handling each to determine which you "like" most.
Also if you are on a budget the D50 allows you to spend more on a better lens which could be more important.

Greg

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Mon 30-Jan-06 10:30 PM
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#24. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

>1: no CLS remote controller built in to control remote flash
>2: No Grid on demand (nice for lining up the horizon or copy
>work)
>16: No auto exposure bracketing
>5: ISO only in stops not 1/3 like D70's
>8: One control wheel not 2 (can be advantage as D70 can be
>moved by accedent)
>10: no hard wired cable release like D70s
>12: 420 points used for metering vs 1005
>13: Top shutter speed 1/4000 instead of 1/8000
>14: No wb fine tuning

I reorganized the list you posted, to look it from the perspective I've used during my reading of specs and reviews. The items above are all things that I'm actually o.k. living without. Either I never had them on my 35mm Pentax (for example, grid lines) or I just like the fact that the D50 has automated them and I don't have to worry about them at all.

>3: Not as many pictures on a card - D70 gets about 20% more
>(conflicting infor)
>7: Uses SD cards instead of CF

I don't have a single CF card at the moment and only one 256M SD card. So I'll be buying cards no matter what. I am fine with the SD cards.

>4: No removable plastic screen protector - does not appear
>to scratch

If it appears like it will be a problem, I'm thinking of using the sticky 'label' type protectors.

>9: Smaller

Perfect for me. I'm a cyclist and a hiker... less is more.

>17: 2.5 frames per second vs 3

Chances of me needing or even noticing difference are slim.

>18: Faster camera download to computer with cable

I actually only have USB 1 on my ThinkPad, so this isn't really a plus for the D50, but not a negative either.

>15: No depth of field preview button

I will actually miss this one.

So you can see that in looking at the list I really only see one thing I'll miss where I see lots of benefits of the 50.

All the best,
Allan B.






  

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eleventyone Registered since 29th Jan 2006Tue 31-Jan-06 07:01 AM
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#26. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 24


el segundo, US
          

i forgot about the DOF preview button. i think thats the deal breaker for me. so much for all that stuff i was planning on getting with the money i would be saving by getting a d50...


  

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Rickard_F Registered since 16th Dec 2005Mon 30-Jan-06 09:31 AM
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#19. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 16


Karlstad, SE
          

"use one of those clip on LCD protector things."
chk out hoodmanusa.com

/ Rick



"when operating the diopter adjustment control with your eye to the viewfinder, care should be taken not to put your finger in your eye accidently"

-D2Hs Semper fidelis

  

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Rickard_F Registered since 16th Dec 2005Mon 30-Jan-06 09:40 AM
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#20. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 0


Karlstad, SE
          

Hi,
remember that D50 uses SD cards and other bodies should you decide to step up later use CF cards. Just so you dont buy alot of SD cards. Also SD cards top out at 2gig and CF at 8 gig.

I would say D50 with a 18-200 VR lens as an allround kit. Combine that with the lowepro Slingshot 1 for hiking, playing out with kids or cycling. I love my slingshot and can have the camera out and take a pic in 3secs. Wife has timed me

As you like Macro photography and the 18-200 is hard to come by right now I would get the D50 with a 105mm or 150mm Macro lens.

Indoor shooting is going to require a flash down the road and the SB 600 is a great flash especially if you put a STOFEN omni bounce on it.

apart from the memory card the best advice I can give is to do alot of research on lenses before buying them. its alot more painless to change bodies than lenses because they are too slow or soft or short or wide or long or heavy or plastic or or or


Good luck

/ Rick


"when operating the diopter adjustment control with your eye to the viewfinder, care should be taken not to put your finger in your eye accidently"

-D2Hs Semper fidelis

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Mon 30-Jan-06 11:08 AM
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#21. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your input. Just a few questions/responses....

>remember that D50 uses SD cards and other bodies should you
>decide to step up later use CF cards. Just so you dont buy
>alot of SD cards. Also SD cards top out at 2gig and CF at 8
>gig.

The SD card usage is fine with me. I saw that during my initial reading. I cannot honestly imagine a scenario where I'd need more than 2 gig worth of memory without having an opportunity to simply stop and swap out cards. I don't shoot sporting events or kids' birthday parties... and I don't do windows.

>I would say D50 with a 18-200 VR lens as an allround kit.

For where I'm at with my skill level right now I think that lens is way more than I need.

>Combine that with the lowepro Slingshot 1 for hiking,
>playing out with kids or cycling.

I looked at the Slingshot and once again thought it might be more than I need right now. When I cycle or hike I'm not fond of something across my back... I run too hot. So I went with the Off Trail 1 for now. Got one off eBay for < $30 U.S.

Additionally, for the time being, I want to keep my kit small and light. For travelling purposes, but really more to focus on learning to shoot better pictures. I went gadget crazy years ago with my Pentax 35mm and I don't want to repeat that now.

>As you like Macro photography and the 18-200 is hard to come
>by right now I would get the D50 with a 105mm or 150mm Macro
>lens.

O.K. here's a question. Probably a silly one, but I honestly don't know the answer. Is a macro lens also usable for regular shooting? The 100mm range is also considered a decent size for portrait shots, isn't it? Or is a dedicated "macro" lens only good for close-up work?

>Indoor shooting is going to require a flash down the road
>and the SB 600 is a great flash especially if you put a
>STOFEN omni bounce on it.

Is the built-in flash on the D50 inadequate for normal sized rooms?

>apart from the memory card the best advice I can give is to
>do alot of research on lenses before buying them. its alot
>more painless to change bodies than lenses because they are
>too slow or soft or short or wide or long or heavy or
>plastic or or or

I am definitely giving all of this a lot of thought. I really appreciate your input!

Allan B.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 30-Jan-06 06:34 PM
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#23. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 21


Richmond, US
          

> For where I'm at with my skill level right now I think that 18-200 lens is way more than I need.

I think so, and it's also outside of your specified budget as well ($700). On the other hand, it is a VERY nice lens. I'm in the queue with every man and his dog too, so it's not as if I don't like it.

> Is a macro lens also usable for regular shooting?

Most of them (all the ones mentioned above) are excellent for regular distance images, although perhaps not as good as the best. You are unlikely to distinguish the difference at 5x7 anyway.

> The 100mm range is also considered a decent size for portrait shots, isn't it?

It was for 35mm, but our digital format makes it behave more like it's 150mm, which puts you a fair pace away. Technical results are fine, but the subject-photographer interaction is said to suffer. (I don't know, I don't do portraits.) Some say that the macro lenses are TOO sharp for portrait work: they reveal the tiniest imperfections. But that can be the case for the dedicated portrait lenses too - and that's why Nikon make these fancy (and expensive!) defocus control lenses.

> Is the built-in flash on the D50 inadequate for normal sized rooms?

It's certainly not a very powerful flash. It's guide number is 17 by the most optimistic reading of the Nikon specs. At f/4 (nearly wide open on the kit lens), that means it's good for... 17 / 4 = 4.5 feet! I had to look that up three times to be sure it wasn't a typo. So then I looked up something I know, which is a D100. Its guide number is 50, so with the same lens it's good to 50 / 4 = 13 feet. That's about right in my experience, so if the D50's really is only 17, I think it's pretty underpowered. All of this can be improved by cranking up the ISO from 200 (used as a comparison here, and the default) to something higher. At ISO 800, the ranges are 3-4x, so it's not as if you can't get a decent shot - you just won't get it by default at ISO 200.

For comparison, the ISO 200 guide number of the SB-600 is 193, which is shockingly higher in this context.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Mon 30-Jan-06 10:37 PM
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#25. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 23


US
          


>I think so, and it's also outside of your specified budget
>as well ($700). On the other hand, it is a VERY nice lens.
>I'm in the queue with every man and his dog too, so it's not
>as if I don't like it.

I have to admit, I'm still split between the D50's kit lens and the D70's 18-70 lens. I want to stay close to my budget, but not cheap out at the same time. I guess I picked the wrong brand for economical gear, huh?

>> The 100mm range is also considered a decent size for portrait shots, isn't it?
>
>It was for 35mm, but our digital format makes it behave more
>like it's 150mm, which puts you a fair pace away.

Wow, I still have so much to relearn and learn for the first time. But it's all so much more enjoyable today as an adult than as a teenager. My patience level hasn't really improved but my appreciation of what makes for a good time certainly has. And I think just being able to get out with a good quality DSLR and get shooting will make for a very good time.

>> Is the built-in flash on the D50 inadequate for normal sized rooms?
>
>It's certainly not a very powerful flash. It's guide number
>is 17 by the most optimistic reading of the Nikon specs. At
>f/4 (nearly wide open on the kit lens), that means it's good
>for... 17 / 4 = 4.5 feet!
>For comparison, the ISO 200 guide number of the SB-600 is
>193, which is shockingly higher in this context.

That really is a big difference. O.K. I know the next thing to budget for.

AB

  

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Ranger Tim Registered since 31st Jul 2004Thu 02-Feb-06 02:46 AM
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#27. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 25


Richmond, US
          

AB,

I have both the D70 and D50 kits, as well as the 70-300 ED. I too must weigh every investment in toys carefully as my funds are quite limited. I have read this thread with interest and I am impressed with the recommendations you are receiving. The folks on this forum have been very helpful to you in hashing out your choices.

Here are my thoughts on the 18-70 vs. 18-55. Both are excellent lenses for entry into DSLR-land. The new 18-200 VR would seem to be the best of all worlds as a starter lens, however, it has more moving parts and has it's own learning curve and a much steeper price. You said you wanted to be highly mobile with this package. I recommend the 18-55 for the following reasons:
1) price
2) weight (much lighter)
3) 52mm filter size (less expensive polarizer, 4T is very good macro for cheap)
4) Has less distortion at 18mm for wide landscapes.

Next, the subject of a longer telephoto. I would buy the 70-300mm G, no question. The 300mm length is long enough to satisfy most folks and gets you to the limit of handheld photography. The "hole" between 55-70mm you will probably never miss if you move your feet. These two lenses will keep you occupied for quite a while and you will not miss many shooting opportunities due to lack of focal length. Keep in mind that these lenses need good light or flash to work well.

This kit will perhaps leave enough cash for you to afford a 50mm f/1.8 to use as a portrait/low light/copy lens. This lens is a real gem for some people and a complete waste of money to others. I happen to enjoy taking the D50 out with just the 50mm and really working to find a good shot. This setup is so light and portable it's almost invisible! It is also a wonderful way to capture family pic's because folks are just not intimidated by such a small, amateur-looking rig. But the shots are usually fabulous! It is a great portrait focal length for head and shoulders shots or pictures of couples. This lens will also extend your built-in flash range considerably.

To summarize, D50 kit, 70-300mm G, and maybe 50mm f/1.8 as an option. This has got to be the most bang for the buck I can think of, perhaps in any camera system.

Whatever you finally choose, I am sure you will be impressed by the D50. It is as easy to use as a point and shoot, yet will grow with your interests and lead you into new and exciting dimensions of photography. My wife loves hers and she is not very tech-savvy. Meanwhile, I am happy to borrow it while my D70 is in the shop being repaired. I really have no complaints about the performance. Good Luck!

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA
http://home.earthlink.net/~streagle/index.html

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 02-Feb-06 06:57 AM
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#28. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 25


Richmond, US
          

> I have to admit, I'm still split between the D50's kit lens and the D70's 18-70 lens. I want to stay close to my budget, but not cheap out at the same time.

Consider buying used. There are lot of 18-70's available these days because others have opted for the (much more expensive) 18-200VR. I got my 18-70 used from the Nikonians Want to Sell forum for around $230. You'll want to wait for a Canadian offering, but they come up too.

> I guess I picked the wrong brand for economical gear, huh?

No, I think you're fine. For example, Konica-Minolta kit is probably much less expensive these days. (KM also just announced that they're withdrawing from the photography business.) There are really only two viable brands for DSLRs: Nikon and Canon. I think you'll find that the other brand doesn't have as good community support, as well as being at least as expensive in the long run.

> Wow, I still have so much to relearn and learn for the first time. But it's all so much more enjoyable today as an adult than as a teenager. My patience level hasn't really improved but my appreciation of what makes for a good time certainly has. And I think just being able to get out with a good quality DSLR and get shooting will make for a very good time.

Welcome to the hobby! If I can absorb all this stuff with a learning disability, it's likely that it's accessible to anyone without one. Keep plugging away, and don't forget to have fun!

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 30-Jan-06 11:27 AM
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#22. "RE: D50 for sure, but which lens/lenses to start with?"
In response to Reply # 20


Richmond, US
          

> its alot more painless to change bodies than lenses because they are too slow or soft or short or wide or long or heavy or plastic or or or

Having owned six different Nikon bodies and something like 16 or 17 lenses, I strongly disagree with this. The bodies have a LOT more personal interaction with the photographer, and the subtleties count for a lot. This was true even in the film era but is MUCH more so in the digital era. Switching between a D2h and a D100 is much easier than changing from a D2h to a C*n*n 10D, but it is MUCH, MUCH harder than putting on a different lens.

Between bodies, all sorts of things change, sometimes in fairly fundamental ways: metering types change (eg matrix to 3D matrix to center weighted - when it's CW, sometimes it's 12%, sometimes 20%, etc); lens compatibility changes (some matrix meter with AIS lenses, some only CW meter, some don't at all); AF mechanisms, sensors and modes change; sometimes there's no spot meter, sometimes you have a DOF preview, sometimes the DOF preview is in a completely different place. I won't go on. Sure, one can claim that these differences are exaggerated by different classes of body, but if they weren't different, what was the reason for changing?

By comparison, if you think the brand X lens is too slow to focus and too slow aperture wise, about the worst changes you have to cope with are that the focusing ring is in a different place (and may turn in a different direction - if you even MF), the lens caps are a different style, and maybe it has different flare characteristics.




I am surprised that no one has mentioned what I think is the primary difference between the D50 and other Nikon DSLRs: the fact that the D50 provides the most useable JPEGs straight out of camera.

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Sun 12-Feb-06 10:59 PM
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#29. "Very near final decision"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Just a follow-up to my questions asked at the beginning of this thread.

Actually, before I do that I just want to say thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread and offered input. I really appreciate hearing from everyone and for feeling so welcome here, when I haven't even bought my D50 yet.

So my original question was which lens (or lenses) to get with my D50 body. After much debate, consideration and tons of reading reviews I think I've figured out the best way to go.

I should mention that I expanded my budget a bit for the initial camera/lens purchase and excluded the memory card from that amount. That allowed me a bit of room to play. I also just sold some old camera gear on that big auction site so I now have an additional $200 U.S. to use for the 2nd lens.

My thought is to get the 18-70mm lens from the D70s kit and use it as my main lens for the D50. Then, to pickup this lens:

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/lenses/telezoom/70-300mmAPO.htm

As both my zoom and my macro. I realize, of course, that it's not a Nikon lens and that it's not going to do both of the jobs perfectly. You can't have it all in one for such a low price. But after looking at other lens in this size/price range this one seemed to consistently get good reviews (not glowing, but not bad). And it seems like it will handle both my outdoor/nature needs and my macro needs all in one.

Any final thoughts before I begin putting this package together?

Thanks again!
Allan B.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 12-Feb-06 11:14 PM
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#30. "RE: Very near final decision"
In response to Reply # 29


Richmond, US
          

You'll be fine with that set. Go have some fun!

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Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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britkev Registered since 11th Sep 2004Mon 13-Feb-06 02:43 AM
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#31. "RE: Very near final decision"
In response to Reply # 29


Philadelphia, US
          

Been agonizing over the same dilemma myself - just bought the D50 kit with the cheapie 28-80mm lens (I know, but it bought the price down to a point where wife approval factor was less of an issue ).

Immediate follow-up purchase is going to be the 70-300mm G, simply because it's the most affordable way of getting the lens length I need, with a 50mm f/1.8 following up soon after, because I'm an available light freak.

Then I can start saving for the glass I really want

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Apotome Registered since 27th Jan 2006Mon 13-Feb-06 03:12 AM
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#32. "RE: Very near final decision"
In response to Reply # 31


US
          

>Been agonizing over the same dilemma myself - just bought
>the D50 kit with the cheapie 28-80mm lens (I know, but it
>bought the price down to a point where wife approval factor
>was less of an issue ).

That factor can be a very big part of the equation.

>Immediate follow-up purchase is going to be the 70-300mm G,
>simply because it's the most affordable way of getting the
>lens length I need,

I like the idea that the Sigma has a macro mode. Again, realizing it's not a true macro lens, but I really like some of the sample images I've seen posted from this lens.

>with a 50mm f/1.8 following up soon
>after, because I'm an available light freak.

Yes, I forgot that one. That's the next 'upgrade' item I want to add to my kit. It's seems like something you just should have.

AB

  

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