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Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon D60/D50/D40 (Public) topic #2200
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Subject: "What caused these??" Previous topic | Next topic
nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 02:42 PM
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"What caused these??"


US
          

heres the pic, uncropped

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/DSC_0959jpw5.jpg

D50/18-55 kit lens. f5.6, 1.6sec. shot in RAW. auto wb.

I'm guessing the flares above the courthouse were caused be the lights on the bridge that I was near. I didn't have a lens hood at the time.

but what about these..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/flr1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/flr2.jpg

guy at camera shop said he's never seen anything like them before.

any ideas?

thanx.

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: What caused these??
dwig
15th Jan 2006
1
Reply message RE: What caused these??
edmun
15th Jan 2006
2
Reply message RE: What caused these??
Shred
15th Jan 2006
3
Reply message RE: What caused these??
nipprdog
15th Jan 2006
4
     Reply message RE: What caused these??
dwig
15th Jan 2006
5
          Reply message RE: What caused these??
nipprdog
15th Jan 2006
6
Reply message RE: What caused these??
D50Vette
16th Jan 2006
7
Reply message RE: What caused these??
blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas
16th Jan 2006
8
Reply message RE: What caused these??
nipprdog
16th Jan 2006
9
     Reply message RE: What caused these??
blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas
16th Jan 2006
10
Reply message RE: What caused these??
nipprdog
17th Jan 2006
11
Reply message RE: What caused these??
blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas
17th Jan 2006
12
Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
nipprdog
22nd Jan 2006
13
Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
edmun
22nd Jan 2006
14
     Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
nipprdog
22nd Jan 2006
15
          Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
Shred
22nd Jan 2006
16
               Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
TampaNikon1
30th Jan 2006
17
               Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
nipprdog
31st Jan 2006
18
                    Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
TampaNikon1
31st Jan 2006
19
                    Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
Ranger Tim
02nd Feb 2006
20
               Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!
blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas
02nd Feb 2006
21
Reply message RE: What caused these?? UPDATE #2
nipprdog
02nd Feb 2006
22

dwig Registered since 30th May 2004Sun 15-Jan-06 03:29 PM
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#1. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 0


Key West, US
          

They appear to be reflections off of the sensor that were then reflected back be the rear element of the lens.

Go back to an uncropped version of the original image and find the exact center. Draw a line from one of the mystery objects to the center and then continue in a straight line the same distance again and you will find a bright light source. It seems the posted image has a noticable portion of the right side cropped off based on the aspect ratio (not 1:1.5 of a D50) and the node about which all of the mystery spots seem to be reflected. The center would seem to be near the brightly lit portico on the left side of the building with the clock tower.

-----
dwig
nikonian in paradise
-----
use: cp8400, cp990, cp950
retired: F,ELW, 21mm, 45 f/2.8 GN
used to own: S2, SP, F2, F3, 20mm f/3.5, 35mm f/1.4, 35mm f/2.8, 43-86 f/3.5, 50mm f/2, 50 f/1.4 (for S2/SP), 55mm f/3.5 Micro, 105mm f/2.5, 105mm f/4 Micro, 300mm f/4.5, 180mm f/4.5 (for 4x5)

  

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edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003Sun 15-Jan-06 03:34 PM
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#2. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 1


eugene, US
          

Yep -- seems to happen with bright spots at night with dark backgrounds.

Usually green.

http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID201/15278.html

ledmun

  

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Shred Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 06:08 PM
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#3. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 2


FI
          

Thats just flare caused by the light bouncing between lens surfaces
and/or lens surfaces and possible filters attached to the lens.

To minimize flares remove all filters from the lens and hope that the used lens is well coated.

The "normal" green color of reflection is caused by the multicoated surfaces,
un-coated or single coated surfaces produce sharp and visible flare.

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 06:08 PM
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#4. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

>They appear to be reflections off of the sensor that were
>then reflected back be the rear element of the lens.
>
>Go back to an uncropped version of the original image and
>find the exact center. Draw a line from one of the mystery
>objects to the center and then continue in a straight line
>the same distance again and you will find a bright light
>source. It seems the posted image has a noticable portion of
>the right side cropped off based on the aspect ratio (not
>1:1.5 of a D50) and the node about which all of the mystery
>spots seem to be reflected. The center would seem to be near
>the brightly lit portico on the left side of the building
>with the clock tower.

thanx, dwig. I edited my original post to include the uncropped version. the pattern of the 4 spots on the lower right match the pattern of the 4 lights in the building under construction.

the spot on the building is from the bright light above the 4 spots.

thanx.

  

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dwig Registered since 30th May 2004Sun 15-Jan-06 06:52 PM
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#5. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 4


Key West, US
          

There are also two in the sky each side of the clock tower that map to two of the lights in the lower left quarter of the picture.

Reflections like these are almost certainly a sensor to lens and back to sensor reflection. Internal lens reflections and lens to filter reflections don't form patterns that are radially reflected about the center of the image. They form a pattern of reflections along a line toward the center but on the same side of the center unless they are bright enough to form secondary and tertiary patterns that can then extend beyond the center. Internal lens reflections generally don't (I've never seen one that did) form their primary, brightest reflection on the opposite side of the center.

-----
dwig
nikonian in paradise
-----
use: cp8400, cp990, cp950
retired: F,ELW, 21mm, 45 f/2.8 GN
used to own: S2, SP, F2, F3, 20mm f/3.5, 35mm f/1.4, 35mm f/2.8, 43-86 f/3.5, 50mm f/2, 50 f/1.4 (for S2/SP), 55mm f/3.5 Micro, 105mm f/2.5, 105mm f/4 Micro, 300mm f/4.5, 180mm f/4.5 (for 4x5)

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 07:32 PM
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#6. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

>There are also two in the sky each side of the clock tower
>that map to two of the lights in the lower left quarter of
>the picture.
>
>Reflections like these are almost certainly a sensor to lens
>and back to sensor reflection. Internal lens reflections and
>lens to filter reflections don't form patterns that are
>radially reflected about the center of the image. They form
>a pattern of reflections along a line toward the center but
>on the same side of the center unless they are bright enough
>to form secondary and tertiary patterns that can then extend
>beyond the center. Internal lens reflections generally don't
>(I've never seen one that did) form their primary, brightest
>reflection on the opposite side of the center.

thanx again, dwig.

I updated the pic again with lines connecting the spots and lights.

now I'm going to go back to a couple other boards where most thought it was light flare. I'll tell them that I found the answer here

  

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D50Vette Registered since 09th Dec 2005Mon 16-Jan-06 12:46 AM
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#7. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 0


Highland, US
          

I had the exact same thing happen to me. I had a UV filter on to protect the lens. I removed it and then all was good. Good luck.

______________________________________
Nothing fancy...Just a Nikon D50,SB600 with 18-200 VR,70-300 Nikkor glass and a Tamron 2x T-converter

I'm into cars too...see my ride, and friend's rides at my site... www.n2ovette.com

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 16-Jan-06 05:37 AM
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#8. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

Jim,

Were you using a filter? If not, which lens was used?

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Mon 16-Jan-06 10:47 AM
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#9. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 8


US
          

>Jim,
>
>Were you using a filter? If not, which lens was used?

Tiffen Sky filter.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 16-Jan-06 02:22 PM
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#10. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 9


Richmond, US
          

Oooohhh... is it a multi-coated one? I had really bad flare problems with one of the single-coated version of that. As soon as I took it off, flare was gone. I think Tiffen make a couple of different levels - I discovered that mine was not multi-coated. After that experience (and the sticker shock associated with Nikon and B+W filters) I just took them off, and I haven't worried much about it in the past two years.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Tue 17-Jan-06 01:18 AM
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#11. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

thanx to all who have responded.

I've had lens flare before on my film cameras. it never was anything close to being as 'perfectly symetrical' as this example. which makes me inclined to go with dwig's explanation.

my plan is to recreate the photo and try to recreate the results. I will shoot with and without the filter. I will also try another lens or two, with and without filters.

however, I just checked the forecast, and it will be several days before the conditions will allow me to do it.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Tue 17-Jan-06 10:40 AM
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#12. "RE: What caused these??"
In response to Reply # 11


Richmond, US
          

The flare could be coming from either the front or the rear. The front obviously would occur on film cameras too, but digital sensors are considerably more reflective than film. So occasionally with very bright highlights, light will hit the sensor and reflect back into the lens. The lenses are coated to suppress this, but filters are often not. It even does happen once in a blue moon on lenses. And apparently some sensors are more reflective than others, but fortunately Nikon DSLRs have little trouble with this.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Sun 22-Jan-06 11:45 AM
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#13. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

The weather finally cooperated so I could duplicate the photo.

got some interesting results.

heres a pic with the filter on

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/mine/DSC_1426vw.jpg

I took the filter off, and then shot this pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/mine/DSC_1427vw.jpg

spots are gone.

also, the filterless pic was sharper

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/mine/compare2.jpg

don't know if a higher quality filter would have produced the spots or not, or wouldn't have degraded the sharpness.

but I'm now rethinking my take on filters.

probably only for effect. for protection only in extreme conditions, like a motocross race.





  

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edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003Sun 22-Jan-06 05:07 PM
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#14. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 13


eugene, US
          

Thank you very much --- How cheap a filter was it.

I am going to have to rethink my filter ideas now.

ledmun

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Sun 22-Jan-06 07:34 PM
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#15. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 14


US
          

>Thank you very much --- How cheap a filter was it.

a Tiffen Sky 1A.

I'll probably pick up a Hoya multi-coated and test it the same way.

  

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Shred Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 22-Jan-06 07:57 PM
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#16. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 15


FI
          

If you are going to do a filter test it would be nice to see how Hoya Super Multi Coated works.

  

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TampaNikon1 Registered since 01st Dec 2001Mon 30-Jan-06 10:20 PM
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#17. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 16


Spring Hill, US
          

Did you ever retest with the Hoya filters?

Bob, A Florida Nikonian

"When you turn your camera on...does it return the favor?
"If Not get a "NIKON" !

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Tue 31-Jan-06 11:53 AM
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#18. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

>Did you ever retest with the Hoya filters?

not yet. weather and time have not cooperated. I did do a little test the other day indoors. I took a couple pics with my 50mm 1.8 using a Hoya coated(not multi-coated) filter. took a couple with the filter, and a couple without it. the ones with the filter were slightly less sharper.

weather permitting this week, I'll head downtown and try the shot again.

my stance of using filters for protection has changed. in the 25 years that I've preached this, I've never even scratched a filter.

knock on wood.

now, my lenses are filterless. unless I need one for effect, or am shooting in a place that could have projectiles(ATV race,etc.), my lenses are naked.

  

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TampaNikon1 Registered since 01st Dec 2001Tue 31-Jan-06 01:12 PM
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#19. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 18


Spring Hill, US
          

The reason I ask is that I have Hoya Multi Coated.

I'm going to have to take shots with and with out as you suggest to see if there is a big difference.

Thanks,

Bob, A Florida Nikonian

"When you turn your camera on...does it return the favor?
"If Not get a "NIKON" !

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Ranger Tim Registered since 31st Jul 2004Thu 02-Feb-06 02:13 AM
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#20. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 18


Richmond, US
          

Here's one for ya! The only time I've ever scratched a lens in 25 years is when I accidentally dropped an item onto the front element. What was the item? A skylight filter! I only use them for adverse environments or to keep kids from poking their greasy fingers into the glass.

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA
http://home.earthlink.net/~streagle/index.html

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Thu 02-Feb-06 08:02 AM
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#21. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE!"
In response to Reply # 16


Richmond, US
          

The Hoya SMC filters are much better - it's the multi coating that makes the difference. I don't use protection filters unless I'm at the beach where there's a lot of salt spray, but I do have a batch of these and they are pretty good. Certainly they do not cause the massive problems that we've seen in this thread, even though I have had them introduce slight ghosting and very slight flare a couple of times.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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nipprdog Registered since 29th Oct 2005Thu 02-Feb-06 10:46 PM
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#22. "RE: What caused these?? UPDATE #2"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I have a Hoya UV filter that I got when I bought my 50mm 1.8. its coated, but not multi-coated. was curious to see how it would do under the same conditions. so, I put on the 18-55 and went downtown.

got one flare with the filter on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/DSC_1599w2.jpg

with that filter on the 50mm 1.8, there were no flares.

while there was some sharpness loss with the filter on, it was minumal, but there. these were with the 50mm 1.8

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/tsts4.jpg

left side is with filter.

looks like I'm staying filterless for the most part.

the 50 1.8 had a star like efect on a couple of lights, with or without the filter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/DSC_1611vw.jpg





  

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Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon D60/D50/D40 (Public) topic #2200 Previous topic | Next topic