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Subject: "Long Exposure NR after firmware update" Previous topic | Next topic
GPSMapNut Registered since 05th Nov 2006Sun 04-Feb-07 01:24 AM
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"Long Exposure NR after firmware update"


Burlington, CA
          

D80 new firmware 1.01 supposed to improve effects of Long Exposure Noise Reduction. Since I like low light / long exposure photography, I was really hoping that it will work as well as it did in D50. No such luck...

Dark frames. 15 Minutes ISO200
Images downsized and converted to JPG. No other adjustments.


1st frame, Firmware 1.0 LE-NR OFF

http://www.fotocanada.ca/Ods%20and%20ends/Tests/slides/Amp15minLENROFFFirm10.html




2nd frame, Firmware 1.0 LE-NR ON (pretty useless in cancelling the amp glow!)


http://www.fotocanada.ca/Ods%20and%20ends/Tests/slides/Amp15minLENRONFirm10.html





3rd frame, Firmware 1.01 LE-NR ON (IMHO instead of better, LE-NR now is worst than with the original firmware!!!)

http://www.fotocanada.ca/Ods%20and%20ends/Tests/slides/Amp15minLENRONFirm101.html

In conclusion, from my point of view, the new firmware did not improve anything and Nikon's claim of "Effects of processing performed when the Long exp. NR item in the shooting menu is enabled have been improved." has no bases in reality. To say that I'm disappointed would be a huge understatement!Andrew Kalinowski

Photos: http://www.FotoCanada.ca
GPS hobby: http://www.GPSNuts.com
Topo maps: www.CanadianMaps.ca

Andrew Kalinowski

Photos: http://www.FotoCanada.ca
GPS hobby: http://www.GPSNuts.com
Topo maps: www.CanadianMaps.ca

Attachment #1, (fotocanada file)

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
James23p Moderator
04th Feb 2007
1
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
dm1dave Administrator
04th Feb 2007
2
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
hmcstud
04th Feb 2007
6
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
GPSMapNut
05th Feb 2007
7
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
Ferguson Silver Member
16th Jan 2008
8
Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
sahunt
04th Feb 2007
3
     Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
Ferguson Silver Member
04th Feb 2007
4
          Reply message RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update
sahunt
04th Feb 2007
5

James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Sun 04-Feb-07 02:08 AM
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#1. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 0


Memphis, US
          

I was told by Nikon that if I had amp noise at low ISO to have the body returned for a new one. I really think there was some really bad models out there my original one had a serial number of 30xxx400x so it was really early model. I would not be unhappy I would send it back and have Nikon make it right. Good luck Jim

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Sun 04-Feb-07 04:02 AM
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#2. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 0


Lowden, US
          

Jim may be right about trying to return the camera. Others are reporting improvements in this area so you may just have a camera that is worse then most.

Contact Nikon and let us know what they say. Hopefully they will help you out.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
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hmcstud Registered since 04th Nov 2005Sun 04-Feb-07 09:24 PM
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#6. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 0


Medford, US
          

My experience with this upgrade is that it varies depending on iso, the length of NR exposure being taken. For example with ISO 800 and 1600 and a 30s exposure, it matched the dark frame exposure with the same length of time as the original exposure. Whereas for ISO 100,200 and 400 it used about 2/3rds the length of time. There may be a more complicated formula for figuring out the dark frame subtraction. I just did a 2-min exposure at iso 200 and it used a 1-min dark frame. Whereas at iso 1600 a 2-min exposure resulted in a 2-min dark frame. So at high ISO its matching the length of exposure, but not at lower ones. I'm sure one could do all sorts of exposures to detail exactly what the camera is doing, but who would want to do that?

In terms of results for the 2-min exposures, both pictures (with lens cap on) showed no apparent amp noise. Then with auto levels (or reducing the white point in levels from 255 to 30) the ISO 1600 shot showed much more ISO noise, and the ISO 200 shot showed more amp noise.

This result brings about an interesting question. Given that at ISO 100, 200, 400 it doesn't match exposure length, does that mean that some higher ISO shots might yield better results in many circumstances (when controlling amp noise is more important than high iso noise)?

Perhaps Nikon was trying to appease all those who thought ISO 1600 gave to much amp noise, and also tried to appease people who don't like to wait around for an equivelent length dark frame. Maybe they were trying to be the comprimiser.

*Note: All shots were taken after the firmware upgrade. No I didn't do a similar test before the upgrade. All shots were taken with NR on. My camera is a 300xxxx. And yes, I am happy with the long-exposure results of this camera.

*Edited for clarity

  

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GPSMapNut Registered since 05th Nov 2006Mon 05-Feb-07 12:26 AM
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#7. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 6


Burlington, CA
          

I think that a part of the problem with amp glow is; just about anything affects it to some degree and there is tremendous variation between individual cameras. We all got used to great repeatability of digital. Given the same circumstances and lenses and settings, our cameras can produce (technically) virtually identical results. This is not the case with the amp glow. This is further mudded by various degree of post processing used by individual photogs...
Anyway; what I am personally after is to get results that D50 have given me in the past. A 10 to 15 minutes low ISO exposure with no LE-NR where the amp glow is virtually invisible in the "as shot" image. Alternately, I'll be happy if only minimum cropping is required at 20 minutes. Why so long? Because this is time that gives me star trails that look like star trails not like a camera shake. Why no LE-NR? Because it takes time. Lots of time! Additionally, even when it removes glow, the affected areas loose detail anyway...
I will be (again) talking to Nikon and let you know what transpires.
BTW. at my test, 15 minutes ISO200, LE-NR took 1/2 time = the same as before the firmware update. IF there is a setting at which the LE-NR really works, Nikon should tell us not leave us guessing. I mean, after all, they are paid (with our money) for testing so, they are the ones who should produce results that we can use.

Andrew Kalinowski

Photos: http://www.FotoCanada.ca
GPS hobby: http://www.GPSNuts.com
Topo maps: www.CanadianMaps.ca

Andrew Kalinowski

Photos: http://www.FotoCanada.ca
GPS hobby: http://www.GPSNuts.com
Topo maps: www.CanadianMaps.ca

  

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Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004Wed 16-Jan-08 01:11 PM
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#8. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 0


Cape Coral, US
          

>D80 new firmware 1.01 supposed to improve effects of Long
>Exposure Noise Reduction. Since I like low light / long
>exposure photography, I was really hoping that it will work
>as well as it did in D50. No such luck...
>
>Dark frames. 15 Minutes ISO200
>Images downsized and converted to JPG. No other adjustments.

This is a very interesting thread as I had assumed that the long exposure NR did not even work with bulb settings. I just checked by holding a 2 minute exposure and it did a 1 minute NR.

I wasn't patient enough (as I was doing it by hand) to try 15 minutes, does it then do about 8 minutes?

I tried 2 minutes on mine with and without (though only with 1.0.1 firmware) and the effect was in the right direction. in CS3 with zero adjustment the RGB was running about 30-35 in the corner with LE NR on and 70-80 with LE NR off.

I then tried a "classic" dark frame subtraction, which is what I thought LE NR was supposed to do. I took two separate exposures of 2 minutes, lens cap on. I subtracted one from the other, and got almost no amp noise (in other words, the amp noise is fairly reproducible and subtractable).

I think Nikon is cheating on the LE NR and not doing a proper dark frame, they are doing more like half time exposure and so only somewhat reducing it. If they would do a full time dark frame exposure and subtract instead, I think it would be almost totally eliminated.

You can of course do this manually. Say you are taking a 15 minute exposure. Take two, one with lens cap on (at the same temperature -- makes a difference) and then subtract this dark frame from your light frame PRIOR to doing any adjustments (i.e. shoot raw, do zero exposure adjustment, subtract, then adjust with levels). At least in brief (2 minute) experiments it eliminates almost all amp noise.

Below are two shots, one is 2 minutes with LE NR on, the other is with LE NR off, then a manual dark frame subtracted in photoshop. Both then had auto-levels run and identical changes to post (shrink, convert profile, etc.) You can see a lot less amp noise if you do your own dark frame subtraction. Nikon should stop cheating on the time!

Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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sahunt Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Sun 04-Feb-07 01:17 PM
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#3. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 8


GB
          

>Below are two shots, one is 2 minutes with LE NR on, the
>other is with LE NR off, then a manual dark frame subtracted
>in photoshop. Both then had auto-levels run and identical
>changes to post (shrink, convert profile, etc.) You can see
>a lot less amp noise if you do your own dark frame
>subtraction. Nikon should stop cheating on the time!

Well, maybe. But it would mean waiting between shots for the
whole length of the exposure, no joke if you're making 10 minute
exposures. And it hammers the battery.

Surely it makes a lot more sense to shoot one dark frame at the
ambient temperature, ISO and shutter speed, and then shoot your
sequence of long exposures, and then do the DFS correction against
that one dark frame, on the PC, at your leisure.

-- Steve

  

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Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004Sun 04-Feb-07 02:17 PM
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#4. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 3


Cape Coral, US
          

>Surely it makes a lot more sense to shoot one dark frame at
>the
>ambient temperature, ISO and shutter speed, and then shoot
>your
>sequence of long exposures, and then do the DFS correction
>against
>that one dark frame, on the PC, at your leisure.

Well, yes. But you can always do that yourself. Just turn NR off and do it manually. Though it would be nice (and more accurate) if one could do it in the raw format not post conversion.

If you are Nikon and trying to make it automatic, you more or less have to do it with each shot (arguably one could notice that the last shot (and temperature) was the same and reuse, I guess).

My issue is that it is not that it takes all that time, but that they do not take ENOUGH time to do it right. Doing it half as much time, and getting only half the noise, seems like a rather questionable compromise.

PS. To me this is not a big deal, I do very few long exposures and if I have an issue I can do it manually. I just hate to see half-right solutions when a correct one is within reach easily; I question Nikon's decision in the D80. If I recall the D70 was 1 for 1 a least on the timed exposures, wasn't it?

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://linwoodferguson.smugmug.com

Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

  

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sahunt Registered since 03rd Jan 2007Sun 04-Feb-07 03:33 PM
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#5. "RE: Long Exposure NR after firmware update"
In response to Reply # 4


GB
          

Well my camera's long exposure NR definitely seems better
with the 1.01 firmware.

http://poggle.org/d80_nr_comparison

There is a series of 5 minute exposures there with
the 1.00 result side-by-side with the 1.01 result.
On the next page are the same shots autobalanced.

On the the un-modified pictures, pre-upgrade, the
purple corners are clearly visible at both 200
and 800 ISO (left column, first and second rows).
Whereas on the 1.01 versions (right column) I can't
see any purple. (And viewed full size the difference
is even more striking).

Looking at the autobalanced images it looks like
1.01 is doing a lot more NR in those corners - they
look a lot less bright.

-- Steve

  

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