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Subject: "D70S Aging Technology?" Previous topic | Next topic
John Macmillan Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Dec 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 04:44 PM
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"D70S Aging Technology?"


Port Coquitlam, CA
          

I asked a dealer's opinion the other day on the Nikon D70s and he felt the technology was getting a bit dated compared to the competition. i.e. most others have moved to 8+ mp verus the D70's 6 mp and in the case of Olympus the dust removal system offered advantages. He had expected that when they released the D70s that it would have been an 8mp but this proved not to be the case.

He commented further that the D200 was certainly going to be popular but lack of product availability wasn't doing anything to enhance Nikon's position & of course the price points are substantially different. Waiting lists here for the D200 run into Feb/March 2006 which rather makes it a mute point for an immediate purchase.

No doubt there are a variety of opinions out there and I thought that a thread on this might make for interesting discussion so I hope this post in no way offends anyone.

Anyone else think the technology is becoming dated versus the competition?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Frenchie Registered since 06th Oct 2004Sat 31-Dec-05 05:57 PM
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#1. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


FR
          

The D70 is a great camera. The D70s is, to all intents and purposes, exactly the same camera and therefore also a great camera. Both are remarkable value for money

The 'megapixel race' is STUPID. To double the resolution of the D70 you need a 24 megapixel sensor. Once you get to 6mp and a sensor like you have in the D70 you have a long way to go and a lot more to pay before you get substantially better reproduction. What improvement do you think 8mp or even 10mp is going to give the average photographer? Answer... none.

The camera is only a tool. The best saw in the world won't make you a better carpenter

I'm off to take some New Year's Eve dinner party photos with a 5mp Canon Ixus 50

Happy New Year

Pete
"Cameras don't take photographs, people do" - John Hedgecoe said that.
"Expose for the highlights and let the shadows take care of themselves" - Ansel Adams said that.
"The camera is only a tool. The best saw in the world won't make you a great carpenter" - I said that
A few photos, here for a reason

  

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kuku Basic MemberSun 01-Jan-06 06:44 PM
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#18. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 1


Jeddah, SA
          

8mp ok, but a 10mp sensor should be capable of printing a picture double the size of a D70. 11mp is even better, D200 come to papa.

My Nikonians Gallery
www.kukuphoto.com

  

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RoscoeD Registered since 29th Oct 2005Mon 02-Jan-06 01:09 PM
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#22. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 18


Woodbridge, US
          

>8mp ok, but a 10mp sensor should be capable of printing a
>picture double the size of a D70. 11mp is even better.

Nope. To double the resolution, one would have to double both the width and the height. That means 4 times the area of the sensor and 4 time the number of pixels. Therefore it would take a 24mp to double the resolution of the D70(s).

------
Roscoe
Big ones eat the little ones, little ones got to be fast. - The Radiators
http://www.rossdillon.smugmug.com

------
Roscoe
Big ones eat the little ones, little ones got to be fast. - The Radiators
http://www.rossdillon.smugmug.com

  

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Pronrop Registered since 20th Jul 2006Tue 03-Jan-06 04:25 PM
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#26. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 22



          

>>8mp ok, but a 10mp sensor should be capable of printing a
>>picture double the size of a D70. 11mp is even better.
>
>Nope. To double the resolution, one would have to double
>both the width and the height. That means 4 times the area
>of the sensor and 4 time the number of pixels. Therefore it
>would take a 24mp to double the resolution of the D70(s).
>
>------
>Roscoe
>Big ones eat the little ones, little ones got to be fast. -
>The Radiators
>http://www.rossdillon.smugmug.com
That's right D200 has only 25% more resolution than d70s

  

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bcm75 Basic MemberWed 04-Jan-06 03:03 PM
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#27. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 22


Northbrook, US
          

>Nope. To double the resolution, one would have to double
>both the width and the height. That means 4 times the area
>of the sensor and 4 time the number of pixels. Therefore it
>would take a 24mp to double the resolution of the D70(s).

It depends what you mean by "doubling" the size of a print. If you mean a print that's twice the width and twice the height, then it requires four times the resolution. Of course, that print is four times the size in terms of print area. Twice as many pixels on the sensor equals a print (keeping resolution constant) that is twice the area.

For instance, if you consider an 8x10 print to be twice the size of a 4x5 print then sure, you need four times the resolution to do it. However, I've always thought it more logical to see that 8x10 as four times the size of the 4x5, not twice the size.

Brian Morrison
My Nikonians Gallery | The Nikonians Team
My Website | My Blog

  

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kuku Basic MemberTue 10-Jan-06 02:00 AM
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#33. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 27


Jeddah, SA
          

That makes alot of sense. Ok, 25% bigger prints. D200, come to PAPA!

My Nikonians Gallery
www.kukuphoto.com

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Wed 18-Jan-06 04:58 PM
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#49. "RE: D70S Aging Technology? - Sort of a long post"
In response to Reply # 22


AW
          

Another way to look at the megapixel war. The little chart belows show the percentage of increase in pixels as resolution moves up at 2 mpixels per iteration, starting at 4 mpixels.

Mpixel 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18
% N/A 50 33.3 25 20 17 14 12.5

What you see is a diminishing return as cameras move along this line. However, as many of you have probably noticed, typically sensors are increasing more incrementally in mpixels. Like from 3.2 to 4 then to 5. If you buy on the small increments, (25%), you don't get a lot of bang for your buck but the companies keep people moving through the obsolescenc scenarios.

This is the same thing Intel did as they slowly introduced increased megahertz into their microprocessor line during the 1990s. Then came some competition from companies like AMD. Suddenly, Intel had to compete on their chip cost. Look at PC prices today vs. 10 years ago.

While not quite the same monopoly as Intel, Sony produces a lot of the sensors that wind up in the digicam/dslr lines of technology, (note the recent batch of warranty problems that a bunch of the manufacturers had to address due to a defective batch of Sony digicam sensors that were failing due to exposure to heat and humidity).

I think the real issues are the ability to transfer data from your favorite DSLR to your computer and file standards.

Moving the data around - We will be able to move data off CompactFlash cards to computers for some years into the future. Then it becomes a matter of ensuring you back up your data to appropriate archival data mediums that reflect the current technology, (such as moving it from CD to DVD to whatever).

File structures - probably the biggest issue over the long term, but not impossible to deal with. If you have archival data with old file formats that might become unsupportable into the future, it becomes a matter of batch translating from one file type to another, (assuming that there is no image degradation as one moves from one lossless file format to another). An example, NEF to Photoshop. Nikon can expand their nef format in the future for whatever might come along and still have current nef files readability by future "Capture" programs.

Examples abound in technology of supporting a previous generation or generations of hardware and software for a period of time that allows people the ability to migrate their data, (really, all that is truely important in information technology). As long as we stay abreast of these changes, no one should get caught off guard losing important images.


Not trivial for us to deal with, but not impossible either.

Regards,

""

  

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kdsmithjr Basic MemberMon 09-Jan-06 08:30 PM
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#29. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 1


Ithaca, US
          

You're right about the megapixel "war." But it's not really about megapixels anymore; it's about overally quality of output. For that you need a great color engine and other 'post processing' details. So, a Canon that is 3 months younger than a Nikon my well take better pics, even if the megapixel difference, as you note, is negligible.

>The D70 is a great camera. The D70s is, to all intents and
>purposes, exactly the same camera and therefore also a great
>camera. Both are remarkable value for money
>
>The 'megapixel race' is STUPID. To double the resolution of
>the D70 you need a 24 megapixel sensor. Once you get to 6mp
>and a sensor like you have in the D70 you have a long way to
>go and a lot more to pay before you get substantially better
>reproduction. What improvement do you think 8mp or even 10mp
>is going to give the average photographer? Answer... none.
>
>The camera is only a tool. The best saw in the world won't
>make you a better carpenter
>
>I'm off to take some New Year's Eve dinner party photos with
>a 5mp Canon Ixus 50
>
>Happy New Year

K. D. Smith, Jr.
My gallery: http://www.nikonians-images.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/1334

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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dark13star Registered since 31st Oct 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 05:59 PM
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#2. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Denver, US
          

I find people who work in camera stores are horrible feature sellers. Let me explain.

In my profession, I teach people how to sell technology. Most people start by selling features, but this is all wrong. You have to know the customer's explicit needs and then map features to those needs. Then they become benefits.

Given this, I would ask: Did the person who said that know your needs? Was he sure that 6.1 megapixels was not sufficient to meet those needs? There is very little difference between 6 and 8 mp for output.

My point is that the D70s may never be outdated if it continues to meet your needs. Some people would say that my 1965 Nikkormat is outdated, but it is still my favorite camera for manual B&W work because it meets the needs of that situation completely.

This is how I think about my D70 (not the S). It meets all my needs except the following:

-I find it hard to focus mannually in the small view finder
-Better weather seals might be nice for the conditions I shoot in, but I am not sure I would treat the camera any differently.

Given these needs, the D200 has some benefits for me. I then map these benefits to cost and come up with a value formula (not a real formula, but a mental one). Do I need these things enough to pay the price of a D200. Not yet. Not enough value for my money at the moment, because of the opportunity cost of the purchase. Since I can't buy everything I want, I find my money is better spent on glass and the new Epson R2400 that I just bought.

I will stop rambling. I guess my point is that the D70 will never be outdated on its own. It all depends on the needs of the buyer and the value of the camera in meeting those needs. As the technology advances the D70 should fall in price and make it a better value. Newer cameras might meet more needs, but generally you will pay for them, so the value may be less.

One final thought. Another way of looking at the D70's technology is that it is "proven."

I hope that helps your consideration.

Rich

Richard Caccavale
A Nikonian in Colorado
"I would be an historian as Herodotus was..." Charles Olson
http://herodot.us
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richcaccavale/sets/

  

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jwenting Silver Member Nikonian since 06th May 2002Mon 16-Jan-06 08:30 PM
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#41. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 2


Almere,
          

>In my profession, I teach people how to sell technology.
>Most people start by selling features, but this is all
>wrong. You have to know the customer's explicit needs and
>then map features to those needs. Then they become benefits.
>

Features sell, period.
The more features, the more sales, it's that simple. The majority of potential customers don't know what all those acronyms mean so you tell them that the camera you want to sell them because it has the highest margin has XXXXX which the camera they'd probably be better off buying but gives you a smaller margin hasn't and you most likely have another sale made there and then.

>Given this, I would ask: Did the person who said that know
>your needs? Was he sure that 6.1 megapixels was not
>sufficient to meet those needs? There is very little
>difference between 6 and 8 mp for output.
>

There indeed isn't, but read above.
People are obsessed with figures they can boast about. Therefore an 8MP camera is more marketable than a 6MP camera even if it is inferior in every other respect, sad but true.
If it weren't Canon wouldn't have sold a single 350d

>My point is that the D70s may never be outdated if it
>continues to meet your needs. Some people would say that my
>1965 Nikkormat is outdated, but it is still my favorite
>camera for manual B&W work because it meets the needs of
>that situation completely.
>

I fully agree, but we're both stuck in an oldfashioned frame of mind where our ideas of what we like aren't driven purely by marketing gimmicks.

>I will stop rambling. I guess my point is that the D70 will
>never be outdated on its own. It all depends on the needs of
>the buyer and the value of the camera in meeting those
>needs. As the technology advances the D70 should fall in
>price and make it a better value. Newer cameras might meet
>more needs, but generally you will pay for them, so the
>value may be less.
>

There will come a day when it's outdated, and that's the day you can no longer retrieve the images you created with it from the camera and present them in a format that's understandable to your audience.

And therein lies the massive advantage of slidefilm over digital cameras, and the death of slidefilm if marketeers have their way.
A slide can be viewed by holding it up against a lightsource (the sun or a candle will do), there's no way you can plan for that to become impossible in a few years by gradually changing the technology your victims have in steps so small they don't even themselves notice they've taken the inevitable step to make their existing cameras useless until it's too late.

any size is fullframe for a given definition of frame

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Mon 16-Jan-06 08:42 PM
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#42. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 41


Chicago, US
          

You can still buy a new 8X10 view camera, and that technology is well over 150 years old. I think the real challenge is taking a picture with the D70 without the lens.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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lanclos Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 06:07 PM
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#3. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Santa Cruz, US
          

The D70 has an excellent feature set for taking photographs. The only areas I find it lacking are in the focusing system, and its inability to meter with manual focus lenses. In the grand scheme of things, these (relatively minor) problems are not worth the money for me to want to ugprade.

All of the important stuff is there. All of the other stuff (noise, highlight control, etc.) can (and probably should) all be managed in software. This is the area where "cameras" make the most short-term improvement, but it is also the area that is least tied to the camera body itself. Well, for SLR's at least-- point and shoot cameras typically do not have the luxury of shooting in a raw format, and even when they do, most people don't bother. Point and shoot cameras are much, much more dependant on the quality of their in-camera software, and suffer much more strongly from rapid obsolescence.

--Kyle

--Kyle

  

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Equis25 Registered since 02nd Jan 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 07:25 PM
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#4. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Utica, US
          

Well, you asked for and got somebody's opinion.

I agree with Rich and Pete that it all depends on what your own needs are. The 6 vs 8 MP is only of marketing use to draw in the uninitiated; the Olympus ultrasonic dust cleaning system seems like a useful feature, but personally, I have not missed it yet in my D70.

Computer product cycles have shorter and shorter intervals, but we are talking here about a DSLR. This is a different animal that may use computer technology to accomplish some of it's functions, but is not in the same product cycle. To me it seems that computers are more of a commodity.

In any event, the D70 is aging gracefully...

HERMAN

  

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John Macmillan Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Dec 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 08:33 PM
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#5. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 4


Port Coquitlam, CA
          

I just wanted to say thanks for the replies / comments thus far. The wealth of experience out there and the accessibility to it that this type of resource provides never ceases to impress me.

On the subject of megapixels I was reading this article that I found to be interesting. It can be found at:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm

Best wishes to all for an outstanding 2006



Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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keithreeder Registered since 10th Nov 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 08:48 PM
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#6. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 5


Blyth, GB
          

Just to add my two pennorth/two cents...

I'm another one who is getting a bit tired of the megapixel argument too, for all the reasons so eloquently detailed above.

I also wonder about the idea of technology for its own sake: no doubt the Olympus ultrasonic dust reduction technology is clever, but isn't it really a solution looking for a problem?

Think of it like this: who among us has ever really thought: "that's it, I'm quitting DSLR photography because I can't take the dust on my sensor any longer"?

Nobody. We deal with it and get on with taking pictures.

So do we really need extra functionality in the camera (read: another thing to go wrong...) which, if the camera is being built to a price, is there at the expense of something you might really need (even if that "thing" is just build quality or something else relatively intangible and invisible)?

No, I don't buy the idea that the D70 is obsolete in any relevant sense: no "cutting edge" technology I'm aware of would make the camera any better for me.

_______________
Keith Reeder

Blyth
Northumberland
England

  

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grumpyoldgeek Registered since 23rd Nov 2005Sun 01-Jan-06 02:14 AM
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#10. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 6



          

>Think of it like this: who among us has ever really thought:
>"that's it, I'm quitting DSLR photography because I can't
>take the dust on my sensor any longer
"?

No more than I'd think of giving up darkroom work because I'm
tired of cleaning dust off of negs. And I am tired of it (:

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sun 01-Jan-06 11:00 AM
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#11. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 10


GB
          

>
>No more than I'd think of giving up darkroom work because
>I'm
>tired of cleaning dust off of negs. And I am tired of it (:

You have just reminded me when back in the 60s, my photographer uncle used to sit in front of his light box filling in the white specks on his large format B&W negatives of studio potraits.

john

  

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hwdx347 Silver Member Charter MemberSat 31-Dec-05 10:16 PM
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#7. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Maumelle, US
          

Every DSLR is obsolete in about a year because of technology. If it does what you need it isn't old technology until it breaks.

Hedley

Hedley
Originally from Merthyr Tydfil, Wales -- now in Arkansas

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jku Registered since 28th Oct 2005Sat 31-Dec-05 10:34 PM
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#8. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


GB
          

Sure, the D70(s) is old tech but the problem is, I am still unable to find a better camera out there at the price I am willing to pay, to replace it

john

  

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heydale Registered since 23rd Apr 2004Sat 31-Dec-05 11:30 PM
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#9. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 8


Cape Elizabeth, US
          

To Support Rich's argument, I have been selling technology solutions for decades. I still have installations running task based applications that are still doing their job reliably running unix on intel 386 based PCs. Simply put, they perform perfectly well as they were intended.
The same goes for the pentax spotmatic that I bought in 1968 and the FM2s and the F3s that I used for years. They performed well for the task that they were assigned.
The D70 does the same. I switched to F3s for the Viewfinder only (HP,they were a lot heavier and offered no other significant benefit.
The D200 is tempting for the same benefit. but not $1000.00 of tempting.

dale

"I got a good shot of the others ducking"
W. Eugene Smith when recovering from a WWII shrapnel wound.

www.flickr.com/photos/heydale

  

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DRWedge Registered since 14th Oct 2002Sun 01-Jan-06 12:00 PM
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#12. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 9


Bristol, US
          

As long as the camera is more "camera" than I am photographer, it will never be obsolete. Why buy added features you don't understand and probably won't use. Before you spend your money on the latest and greatest (at least according to the marketing hype), spend less money on learning the art and science of photography.

Photography is both an art and a science. I am neither an artist nor a scientist. I simply enjoy taking pictures

  

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jbloom Gold Member Awarded for the continuous and generous sharing of his high level expertise and his always encouraging comments in several forums. Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Sun 01-Jan-06 12:57 PM
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#13. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Wethersfield, US
          

If you want the latest technology, be prepared to buy a new camera body every year. But if you are looking for the DSLR that best fits your needs and price point, demanding the latest technology isn't necessarily going to get you that best fit.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sun 01-Jan-06 03:30 PM
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#14. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


AW
          

Interesting thread. Being a new D70s owner, I just had to peruse it.

My local camera shop employs a bunch of Nikon nuts. They carry the other models as well. They push the D70s and even the D50 over Canon, Konica Minolta, Olympus. Since most of them are professionals and enthusiasts they can evaluate all these technologies and give pretty good assessments. I spent a great deal of time talking to a couple of these guys, (as stated elsewhere, some are better at wanting to establish why you want a certain technology before going off on a bells and whistles comparison).

That said, I set out to make my own decisions on every camera in the D70s price range. Part of it was resolution and image quality. I admit I was somewhat apprehensive at first about the D70s still being a 6.1 mpixel camera. Then I started looking at images from them all. IMHO, only Nikon and Canon stayed in the race. Then I researched reliability issues and found Canon to apparently have more issues as well as lots of stories about customer service problems.

Finally, my brother, who shoots Nikon D100 and D70 all the time along with a 14mp Kodak told me what workhorses the two Nikons are, (he also works in a camera shop in London), and about the various issues he has seen in reliability, especially in Canon Rebel XT and 20D, and I made up my mind.

Having had my D70s for a week now and having shot a truck load of RAW photos, I am so glad I bought this camera. I've been tweaking settings based on a great deal of info on this site and the images have just gotten better.

Buy the D70s without hesitation would be my suggestion. It's "technology" stands up to the competition, (mostly exceeding the other's capabilities), and it takes excellent photos that you can print at 13x19.

Besides, you get this great website to use for support of where you will spend more of your time and money - buying lenses, flashes, shooting more photos and post processing and printing. There is much to gain from this site's members collective experiences, (what one might call a valuable soft benefit to owning a Nikon).


Regards

""

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sun 01-Jan-06 03:58 PM
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#15. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

The answer is simple - this dealer sounds like a con man.
He does not have what you want so he rubbishes it.

Sorry to be harsh but when sales people do that those who do not get conned easy walk out of the door.

***

6MP in PhotoShop easily interpolates into a file big enough and good enough for a library to accept it for a magazine front cover.
That means the image quality is good enough to earn a pro top money.

Most pictures in Photo libraries are more than 12 months old and were taken with cameras with 6MP - or less.
That means most magazine front covers were taken with original file sizes of 6MP or less.

***

MP count is subject to inverse square law so you need to go from 6MP to 24MP to get double the picture dimensions without interpolation.
There are no DSLR's yet with anything like 24 MP - and an extra 2MP is a tiny fraction of the difference between 6 and 24MP.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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Virgil Registered since 08th Aug 2004Sun 01-Jan-06 05:02 PM
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#17. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 15


Vienna, AT
          

Hi folks,

i like threads like this one as they clearly show how good marketing works on the majority of customers which won´t go into details rather then let their decission being influenced by brochures and alike. Same with the sellers - they make their living from selling cameras so its perfectly understandable that they sell what they can rather then what would be wise or would suit the customers needs better. Cos then they would sell much more p&s or bridge-cameras (most consumers have no idea what extra effort they have to expect when they start dealing with a DSLR).

Personally i like this situation as prices come down and sooner or later DSLR´s will be as affordable as analog ones, feature-sets and general development of new technologies will increase.

The only sad aspect of all this is that customers which are really interested in geting a good and reliable advise may get mislead by the beforesaid, do wrong decissions and get disattracted - sometimes only from the brand, sometimes from DSLR and - worst case - from photography in general. Fortunately these people find Nikonians.org or other profound forums where skilled people can give the right advise.

Comeing back to the D70 - this camera can do everything necessary for great shots. Prints will be great as well and ISO performance (correct exposure provided) still amazes me. There are things that this camera doesn´t offer - but that´s not the fault of the camera rather then mine cos i developed and found myself with other needs then i had when i initially bought the D70 two years ago. That said i still wouldn´t spend the money asked for a D2X as it would for sure improve handling but not image quality to and extend that justifies USD 4.500,-.

Bottomline - stay unimpressed get out and shoot and forget all those gearheads, marketing slogans and photography mag´s telling you biased things.


Cheers
Wolfgang

Nikonian from Vienna / Austria
Member of NPS
See my snapshots: http://www.photoforum.ru/12675

  

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maciek Registered since 01st Nov 2005Sun 01-Jan-06 04:52 PM
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#16. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


PL
          

>I asked a dealer's opinion the other day on the Nikon D70s
>and he felt the technology was getting a bit dated compared
>to the competition. i.e. most others have moved to 8+ mp
>verus the D70's 6 mp and in the case of Olympus the dust
>removal system offered advantages. He had expected that when
>they released the D70s that it would have been an 8mp but
>this proved not to be the case.
>
>He commented further that the D200 was certainly going to be
>popular but lack of product availability wasn't doing
>anything to enhance Nikon's position & of course the price
>points are substantially different. Waiting lists here for
>the D200 run into Feb/March 2006 which rather makes it a
>mute point for an immediate purchase.
>
>No doubt there are a variety of opinions out there and I
>thought that a thread on this might make for interesting
>discussion so I hope this post in no way offends anyone.
>
>Anyone else think the technology is becoming dated versus
>the competition?

What did you expect? He's got to sell you d200 hes just received.
If you were after canon, he'd try to sell you 5d instead of 20d, just cause 20d is getting old.

thats the total marketing BS that many people believe in, including many people on this forum biyonmg d200 now, cause it has better color histograms, as if it was crucial for their photography. stupid are the people thinking about spending money not about doing photos.

If you are buying your first DSLR and can afford d200 go for it, but if you cant understand the specification except for the Megapixel diffrence, than its better if you go for a d70s and save $$$ for nice lens.

Regards and happy new year.


  

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squawk box Basic MemberSun 01-Jan-06 10:20 PM
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#19. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Conroe, US
          

Technology schmeckmology. Obsolesence only occurs when ones needs or desires change. I am wary of sales people that throw that argument at me. 35 years ago my first 35mm was a Pentax Spotmatic my Dad gave me. That camera served me well till I won an older Canon AE1 in a poker game in 1979. Of course I used the AE1 but at that time I did not "need" the "new" technology. In fact over the years the only new photo technology I have ever bought has been my N90 and accompanying accessories. My wants at that time changed.

When I purchased the D70s (a want) I knew the D200 was coming out. As they say in football, "upon further review" I found the D70s fit my needs/wants just fine. Reading the forums here I am always amazed at the amount of people that swear by the older lenses versus the new. That tells me alot too when it comes to the question old of tech.

I am "just" an amature in the world of photography and if that old technology Spotmatic was all I had it would be enough. I still own and use that old friend btw.


Life is too short to be stuck in a truck. So I retired and shoot pictures instead.
Walt Fuller (me)

Life is too short to be stuck in a truck. So I retired and shoot pictures instead.
Walt Fuller (me)

  

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Ranger Tim Registered since 31st Jul 2004Mon 02-Jan-06 01:10 AM
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#20. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

The same problems plague me today that bothered me with Nikons twenty years ago. I continue to lust after cameras that have more extensive feature sets, i.e. expensive professional models. The resolution/megapixel war is the last thing on my mind when looking at a replacement for my current D70/D50 combination. I am bent on features such as mirror lock-up, modeling flash, larger viewfinder, etc. These things are what truly influence my shooting, rather than sensor technology or the like.

The watershed event for this decade was and will continue to be (for me) the introduction of the first real sub-$1000 Nikon DSLR, the D70. This camera is not dated until we have a D200 at this price point. I love photography but I gotta eat first!

Sell my Nikkors to join another platform? Not a chance!

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA

Tim
Camp Ranger, BSA
http://home.earthlink.net/~streagle/index.html

  

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Jeff Lee Registered since 28th Oct 2005Mon 02-Jan-06 03:44 AM
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#21. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 20


Portland, US
          

First let me say that the d200 and dx2 are incredible cameras, and I'm starting a business where I just might acquire one or the other.

However, the D70/70s is an incredible imaging platform. When you visit Fred Miranda or that wild, wild west DPreview, you will notice one thing, Nikkor Glass and the way the cameras work with it is what sets Nikon apart. I'm not just hyping a product I have because I've shot large format and other cameras as the advertising direct for a very large camera chain. Nikon glass stands with German glass as so very, very good IMHO.

When I bought my D70 (about a year ago), I knew that the heart of any photographic system is the lenses. It's my feeling that you could spend 4 or 5 K on lens for a D70 and be much better off than buying a higher MP and metal body.

I have acquired (all Nikkor) 12-24, 24-85 D f2.8-4, 80-200f2.8, and 300 AFS with tc's1.4 & 1.7. Oh, and a Canon D500 77mm filter - a great product. I don't need more glass and will use my D70 for several more years until it fails or I need addtional bodies.

I also think that we have seen a "dumbing down" of camera sales people in the last 20 years as film has become less important and PS digital cameras have taken over the market.

Perhaps more important is the cameras ability to use Nikon's iTTL flash with either the sb600 or 800 (which is an amazing machine). Anyone having a D70/70s has access to a system which makes Macro shots easier, Makes portraits a snap (sorry about the pun), and with or with out extender make fill flash in nature a very easy thing.

I love my D70 for its ability to use the entire Nikon system to produce the reason I have any equipment.

I have shot more photos this year with my old CP4500 as it is my vacation camera (with the w63 & TC3 I have a range of 24mm to 465mm) that I can carry in my backpack with every thing else like binoculars, drinks, survial gear, and rain gear. But since I been using it for 3 years I know it strengths and weakness. I also know that for those killers shots I shoot in TIF and use noise ninja over 100 ISO. I also use FM resize plugin. Know what, 13 x 19" epson 2400 prints to die for. The camera still performs the function I bought it for and I just wish that Nikon had a curret model with less lag and a maybe 6 MP.

Perhaps we are seeing in the D200 the rise of the "once in a life time" purchase DSLR. When the price level is closer to $1K for a similar camera, Nikon camera will once again be life long cameras, My two Nikkormats lasted 35 years.

So buy your glass once, and know that anything from the D50 to the Dx2 can use it to give you better quality than film.


Regards,

Jeff Lee
www.marketmagic.com/PFA/index.htm

Regards,

Jeff Lee
www.marketmagic.com/PFA

  

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bradrex1 Registered since 19th Sep 2004Tue 03-Jan-06 04:49 AM
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#23. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 21



          

The D200 is better in many ways, but the sensor is not a big improvement. more megapixels? so what. Does it have more dynamic range? Less noise at the same ISO? better color fidelity? If so, nobody is saying it does.

To quote Ken Rockwell, profetional photorapher compairing the D200 and D70: "Picture quality is 99% the same." (he does own both)

  

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edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003Tue 03-Jan-06 05:05 AM
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#24. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 23


eugene, US
          

If we just look at magapixals.

A 6 x10 imange with a D70 should be the same sharpness as a 10x10 image with the D200.

So from a purely math standpoint the D200 is going to give you the ability to crop and still get the image quality of a D70.

I think we will find that the images are much improved with the D200 and it will be about 1/2 way between the D70 and the D2x.

In my camera club, you can see that difference and it is big. It like the difference between 2 1/4 and 35 mm.


ledmun

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Wed 11-Jan-06 03:59 PM
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#36. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 23


AW
          

I think you have a point and I wonder what Nikon may be exploring in the lab with sensor technology as relates to dynamic range, but to say just more mpixels is to ignore the fact that it takes a lot of good engineering to add more pixels to a given geography of any sensor. They also added an ISO 100 setting allowing for more difficult bright light situations.

However, If you're implying. (or am I inferring? ), something to the effect that Nikon should do something like Fuji has with the S3 type sensor, (extending the dynamic range to being more film like), I'd be all for that, as long as they were able to contain the noise issue, which Fuji hasn't quite yet. Also, Fuji doesn't give you a raw output with their sensor. The software in the camera makes the decisions of which pixel elements to use and creates a jpg.

So as relates to whether the D70s is aging technology, until all the various manufacturers come out with extended dynamic range sensors that more closely emulate film behavior, we are all shooting basically, "state of the art" digital, and Nikon is an excellent choice.

Regards,

""

  

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Alniko Registered since 25th Nov 2005Tue 03-Jan-06 11:59 AM
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#25. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Perth, AU
          

Technology is fantastic and useful, but we realy are caught up in some techno race. Out of control consumerism? Will we see a simple bare bones DSLR that will be resistant to change, something like an FM 2 film SLR. Make the images in camera (your creativity) and deal with any percieved technolocical shortcomings in Photoshop later.

  

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bcm75 Basic MemberWed 04-Jan-06 03:07 PM
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#28. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Northbrook, US
          

I would always be wary of a salesperson who doesn't like products that he doesn't have available to sell (D200 in this case), or where there is a more expensive alternative (D70s vs. whatever branded products he had in stock).

Brian Morrison
My Nikonians Gallery | The Nikonians Team
My Website | My Blog

  

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JJ1 Registered since 16th Jan 2008Mon 09-Jan-06 10:26 PM
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#30. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 28



          




I heard a salesman absolutely slate Nikon AND Canon in a shop a couple of weeks ago, apparently the Olympus E300 is MUCH better than either the D70/s or the EOS 350D. Dust would never be a problem with the Olympus system due to the self-cleaning system. Also the Olympus was much more advanced generally. The guy he was speaking to was saying things like 'really, I thought that the Nikon or Canon were the best but from what you're saying I'll have to seriously reconsider'.

It was all I could do to stop myself from fumbling about in my camera bag, reach past the too-light D70s and pick out either the ancient F100 or the pre-historic Leica M4-P, due to their heft, and beat the salesman about his ugly head for spouting such unmitigated tripe at the poor customer. I'm not slating the Oly system but to rubbish Nikon and Canon in such a ludicrous manner got me so wound up I just walked out muttering profanities.

I have been a salesman, not of cameras, and if there is one thing that always got me pi**ed off it was hearing a customer being lied to in order to get a sale- and we didn't get any commission! Some people are just idiots- the chap in your camera shop was one of them I'm afraid.


Jamie H

  

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Cheers Registered since 28th Dec 2005Mon 09-Jan-06 11:03 PM
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#31. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 30


St Albans, GB
          

Well I'm not into the megapixel argument either...a good picture is a good picture from what ever sensor it may come from. I've seen crap shots from a Canon 20D or Nikon D200, like I have a Nikon D70s...but I've also seen from all that make my jaw drop with beauty....just shows that it is just as important as what/who is behind the viewfinder as what the viewfinder is made of.
As photographers we get far too tied up in the technology...just take photos and if you feel comfortable with what you have got and it is taking the pictures that you want, then what more can you ask.

Now, just on the technology front...how many other SLR/DSLR's have a flash sync of 1/500th sec?

As for salesmen/women, well they know in the big wide world, features sell...now if only it was as easy to buy the skill to actually take great photos as it is to be sucked in by features alone.

Cheers

----------------------------------------------
A life? Cool! Where can I download one of them?
---------------------------------------------

  

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lanclos Registered since 28th Oct 2005Tue 10-Jan-06 01:26 AM
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#32. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 31


Santa Cruz, US
          

From what I understand, the 1/500 flash sync is half shutter speed (1/250, same as you see on other Nikon SLRs), and half electronic. If you take enough pictures with slow flash sync between 1/250 and 1/500, electronic interference may crop up.

For the pictures I've taken in this range, I haven't noticed a problem. Still, if my understanding of the technology is correct, I can see why Nikon wouldn't want to make that the default on their higher-end cameras. When in doubt, always give the nod to quality...

--Kyle

--Kyle

  

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Grog Basic MemberWed 11-Jan-06 01:21 AM
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#34. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Lincoln, US
          

"Olympus the dust removal system offered advantages."

I would not say the Olympus has any advantages over Canon or Nikon as it uses the 4/3 sensor. That means it has a senser that is 18MM wide by 13.5MM height. The sensor in the Nikon is 23.7MM wide by 15.7MM height.

Just get out there and take pictures. N80 D200.

  

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JJ1 Registered since 16th Jan 2008Wed 11-Jan-06 08:39 AM
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#35. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 34



          

Well I knew what he was saying was dubious at best and utter garbage at worst. My point is that the customer wasn't in a position to know- that's the implication of the rest of my post, I wasn't stating it as a fact- I was merely repeating what was said.

Jamie H

  

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keithreeder Registered since 10th Nov 2005Wed 11-Jan-06 04:16 PM
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#37. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 35


Blyth, GB
          

Hi Jamie,

I don't think anyone thinks you subscribed to the salesman's patter, and you're dead right - it is sad that this kind of nonsense will result in many less well-informed people parting with their cash for the wrong reasons.

Still, Caveat Emptor and all that...

_______________
Keith Reeder

Blyth
Northumberland
England

  

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John Macmillan Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Dec 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 12:33 AM
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#38. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 37


Port Coquitlam, CA
          

Well, I started this thread, got some excellent feedback, did some more research and today picked up my new D70s ............. thanks to all that offered their thoughts on this topic.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005Sun 15-Jan-06 04:23 PM
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#39. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 38


AW
          

John,

If you're like me, once you started actually handling the D70s vs the competition, you began to realize just how good this camera is. It's ability to capture high resolution, accurately colored digital photo images is excellent. You'll be pleased.

If you haven't before, now's a good time to start shooting RAW and exploring the capabilities.

Regards,

""

  

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mauiglide Registered since 01st Nov 2005Mon 16-Jan-06 08:46 AM
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#40. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 39


Maui, US
          

I've been taking photos with my D70s since the beginning of November 2005. I am amazed at the photos I've been able to take with the camera and the kit lenses (18-70mm and 55-200mm). I debated on the next lens to acquire and ended up with the ultra wide angle Nikon 12-24mm. A couple weeks ago, with the D70s and 12-24mm lens in hand, I took a photo of my daughter at a playground that was so sharp, detailed, and reflected the mood of the moment that I had the image enlarged (16 X 20) and framed. This photo is now hanging in my living room and it is a reminder to me that the D70s will enable me to capture images that I will enjoy now and in the future.

It's not the camera but the person behind it that will make the photo memorable.

Carpe Diem!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Eagle Eyes 1 Registered since 15th Aug 2004Tue 17-Jan-06 08:53 AM
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#43. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


marion, US
          

Dude,

You got yourself a GREAT camera, in my opinion. 6 meg versus 8 or 10 will not be all that significant. I bought a d-70 when it first came out, and it has really been a workhorse for me. I've clicked the shutter on it over 15,000 times. Pics are great with it. The d-70s is probly even better. I upgraded to the d2x recently, and it is now my camera of choice. It is faster and more "feature-filled". But I will never sell my d-70! It is now my "back-up". The Olympus, with its' "dust-off" feature, is probly a capable camera. As is the Konica-Minolta, that has the "anti-shake" technology built into the body. Or the Pentax, that, like Nikon, is backwards-compatible with many of its' lenses, about forty years worth.

I, myself, have checked into all the options, of all of these camera systems. And I do find that Nikon has the best answers for my needs. Canon is not an option for me. I must truthfully say that I have always been heavily predjudiced against the cost to usefullness ratio of anything that is "Canon",....

I hope this helps, at least a little bit.

  

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Dave MC Registered since 26th Dec 2005Wed 18-Jan-06 02:06 AM
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#44. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0



          

A con man is right.....for the most part. Most sales people are not there to help you get what you need/want, they are there to sell and make money. The only things you need to know about what ever camera you have are it's limitations to what you want to do with it and learn how to work around them. I'd love to own a D2X or a D200, I simply can't afford one and would rather save the money and get a great camera that has a lower resolution at 1/2 the price and use the balance of that cash to buy better glass. $1000 can buy some pretty darn nice glass.
Outdated technology, yeah right. If that's the case Ansel Adams is ancient and his photos shouldn't be published anymore. A classic photo is a classic photo regardless of what camera takes it. Lets face it, photographers are pretty much the only ones who care what gear took what picture thinking, "If I get that gear I can take pictures like that" what a bunch of garbage. I'm sure all of us can take great pics with what we have right now if we are pointed in the right place at the right time and push the shutter release when we need to.

Phew, I think I'm done ranting

Dave

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Wed 18-Jan-06 02:52 AM
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#45. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 44


Chicago, US
          

If I am not mistaken, Ansel Adams used an 8X10 View camera, which are still being manufactured and use.Further, there is nothing new about a camera capturing an image one half the size of a 35mm film frame. There are a number of film cameras including a Nikon SLR that recorded it's image on half of the 35mm film frame. This provided the photographer with 40 images on a 20 image roll of 35mm film. But the sales clerk, probably never heard of any of those cameras.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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jwenting Silver Member Nikonian since 06th May 2002Wed 18-Jan-06 07:40 AM
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#47. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 45


Almere,
          

Remember that most salesclerks are under strict orders to push specific high-margin items no matter what.
Some would even rather loose a sale of a low margin item than not push a high margin item (I've experienced that myself several times, in one instance a salesperson tried to sell me an Eos 30 (and wouldn't even discuss anything BUT Canon despite having Nikons and Minoltas in stock) despite me telling him quite clearly I already had a sizable investment in Nikon lenses and was inquiring explicitly about an F100 and an F100 only, I bought that F100 elsewhere and never went back to that store).

Canon has a 135 framesize DSLR out there which offers a very large margin for stores in the 5d, therefore it's not surprising that's the one stores are pushing.
This despite the problems inherent in such large sensors when used with the small diameter rear elements necessitated by the lens mounts used on DSLRs developed on 135 format SLR lines (rather than all new large diameter lensmounts).
Not all that much of a problem for people shooting only long teles, but the highly oblique rays from even modest wideangle lenses cause severe problems on these large size sensors.

If that store had just received a batch of D70s cameras on a steep discount from Nikon for whatever reason the D70s would have been the perfect camera no matter what your requirements.

any size is fullframe for a given definition of frame

  

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Dave MC Registered since 26th Dec 2005Wed 18-Jan-06 02:01 PM
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#48. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 45



          

George,

My point was it is outdated technology by the sale clerk standards. Using that type of thinking I should have sold my N6006 my canon AT-1 years ago, will I, no. They still work great and sit comfortably in my bag along side my D70.
Sales clerks are not necessarily photographers. How many women do you see working in a men’s department of a clothing store? A lot, does than mean they wear men’s clothes, maybe some but for the most part I doubt it.
As far as outdated DSLRS go, yes they will all eventually be “outdated” IF they cease to meet your NEEDS, not WANTS, NEEDS. Unless I get some huge contract with a major company to shoot photos for I see my D70 meeting my needs until it dies. Until then I could care less what new bodies come out and will worry more about getting better glass and more importantly taking better pictures.

My 2 cent, I guess that actually make 4 cent now eh?
Dave

  

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kdsmithjr Basic MemberWed 18-Jan-06 03:44 AM
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#46. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 44


Ithaca, US
          

I can't disagree at all about '...a classic photo is a classic photo...', but because of the nature of a digital camera (versus a film camera) "outdated technology" does have a little more meaning. Digital cameras are, essentially, computers upon which one can attach a lens. Unlike film cameras, where the medium (film) has been pretty stable and, theoretically at least, one can more easily ponder "improvements"--not to mention the fact that the kind of ground level improvements that might take, say, five years, in computers might take 20 in the film medium, "outdated" does have more, real, meaning. The kind of jaw dropping response to the D1 six or seven years ago, would be pretty ho-hum today. In fact, I bet in just about every area the D70, at less than $1,000, runs rings around the (formerly)$5,000 D1. If you own a D1 today, photographically speaking, it is outdated. Compared to a D70, a D1 doesn't produce color as well and its sensor has more inherent noise than a D70. In short the D1 is less camera than a D70, even though it cost fives times as much.

One of the 'problems' with digital is that, at this point anyway, you can't buy a top 'o the line DSLR and sit back and know that it will be state of the art for years to come. In fact, with the relentless improvements in technology, a few years on a DSLR does pretty much demand it's replacement. That's the bad news. The good news, at the risk of repeating myself, is that you can probably get back up on the digital "horse", this is "keep up" for less money than you paid before.


>Outdated technology, yeah right. If that's the case Ansel
>Adams is ancient and his photos shouldn't be published
>anymore. A classic photo is a classic photo regardless of
>what camera takes it. >

>Dave

K. D. Smith, Jr.
My gallery: http://www.nikonians-images.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/1334

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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delaneyb Silver Member Charter MemberThu 19-Jan-06 09:56 AM
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#50. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 46


London UK, GB
          

I agree very much that obsecescence is in the eye of the user not the camera store (who want to get you to trade up to sell a more expensive camera)

I use an Olympus OM4Ti based system with fast Zuiko lenses for film and its great for the way I use it, but MF and film would be considered obselete in spite of the state of the art multi spot metering (now obselete in comparison to matrix).

As for digital i upgraded from a D70 to a D2X because i wanted:
1. brighter finder for manual focusing
2. better WB
3. bigger files (more MP) at 12 rather than 6 I can print at 12 x 16 without the time consuming resizing and I also think noise in the 2-400 range is less bothersome. I hardly ever have to use noise ninja and images require only a little sharpening.

Overall the experience is much more 'film like' and a further step on from a digital compact. It suits me, but I know there are many many people who find their D70 perfect for their wishes (note not NEEDS, only pros 'need')


Brendan
Nikonian in London (Tower Bridge area) UK

Brendan Delaney Photography

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Thu 19-Jan-06 03:54 PM
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#51. "RE: D70S Aging Technology?"
In response to Reply # 0


Chicago, US
          

You should ask the dealer how much of a SPIF, Sales Promotion Incentive Fund, payment he gets for selling you a competitors new camera. The SPIF payments are from the distributor or manufacturer and paid to the salesman/woman and add no cost to the store owners expenses.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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