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Subject: "Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2" Previous topic | Next topic
tfhoey Awarded for his contributions to the Resources Basic MemberTue 10-Oct-06 09:33 PM
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"Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"


Nampa, US
          

We have 124 posts in the first thread. Please continue to post your thoughts and comments here.

Thank You

Tom

RETIRED AND LOVING IT!!!!

Nikonians team

  

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Tokyo Mike
10th Oct 2006
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10th Oct 2006
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11th Oct 2006
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11th Oct 2006
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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Tue 10-Oct-06 09:44 PM
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#1. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


JP
          

I'll repeat my request from the end of the first thread...

It would be informative to see some direct comparison shots between the D80 matrix metering and the D70 matrix metering. Any takers? Post results (or a link to the results) to this thread.

Mike

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Tue 10-Oct-06 11:37 PM
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#2. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Maybe some of us have different expectations on what the Matrix mode should be doing. It was always my impression that it "should" analyze the entire shot, and exposed accordingly. In my opinion, it should expose for the brightest portion of the picture, and work down from that point. Once any part of the shot is blown out...you can't get it back!!! If I want specific exposure of a specific subject, I would choose center or spot metering. But it is my opinion that Matrix "should" expose for the ENTIRE shot.

After a few test shots, it has been my experience, that the Matrix mode works too much like the spot mode. It give very heavy emphasis on whatever is in the center of the shot, totally blowing out the background if neccessary. It totally ignores the rest of the shot.

In the sample I am providing, it not only compensated for a black van, it actually tried to turn it grey. The sky is so blown out, the tree branches dissolve into the overblown white sky, which was actually blue. There is no one who is going to convince me that this shot is anything but ruined because of over-exposure!

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882395/DSC0391.700.jpg

In this next shot, you can see the black van in the background. The Matrix mode metered for the yellow truck, causing the rest of the shot to be exposed correctly. The sky is blue, and clouds are visible.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882396/DSC0397.700.jpg

(Note: of over 100 shots at this show, this was one of only a few that exposed correctly. I would estimate that 90% or more were way overexposed!)

I don't know how to say "technically" what I'm trying to say, but I don't think a-n-y part of the shot should e-v-e-r be overexposed in the Matrix mode. I can certainly see it if you are spot metering.

Am I wrong, or should the Matrix mode look at the entire picture? Secondly, should the Matrix mode meter only whats in the center of the shot, and blow out everything else?

Should it "push" so hard to turn a black van grey, at the expense of the much of the rest of the picture? I realize it's a high contrast shot, but should we start at the shadows and work "up", or start at the highlights and work "down"?

At the risk of repeating myself, here a shot of the black van in the "center weighted" mode. The D80 had no trouble with this shot!

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882413/DSC1055.700.jpg


--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 12:25 AM
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#3. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 2


NZ
          

Everyone,

Thanks for all the good examples. I think people here are starting to agree on a few things.

1. No one is trying to say that a digital sensor can cope with a dynamic range like the human eye/brain.

2. The D80 matrix mode is not behaving as the majority of us here would like when presented with a scene with high dynamic range.

3. The meter itself has been measured to be accurate by some.

In my opinion this is therefore a bad decision by Nikon on how they expected the target market to want the matrix mode to work.
This is my first DSLR but it seems that D70 owners have been unhappy with the underexposure of that camera. Maybe this is why Nikon have gone the other way. The D200 carries no such criticism so I guess everyone here would prefer that firmware.

This is all in the firmware and can be rectified if recognised by Nikon. The post saying that Nikon Europe are onto it is very reassuring. Just give us the D200 look up tables for it's matrix mode.

Of course if Nikon see glowing reviews everywhere (which is what the D80 has received) and a minority of complaints from the likes of us then why would they change every camera globally. I suppose they could make it an optional firmware change by including only that fix.

Let's hope they come up with something!! The result of this is that I think I am now going to obsessed with correct exposure for the rest of my life

Cheers
Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 10:49 AM
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#14. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 2


JP
          

Mmusicman,

A black van against a bright sky is a pretty challenging shot for any matrix meter. I would like to see what your D70 would have done with the same shot. Maybe you can take some identically composed photos with both cameras (D80 and D70) so we can see a comparison of the metering results.

Mike

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 04:05 PM
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#25. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 14


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Mike,

Please look at my post again. I provided a 3rd sample, an example of the same black van in a high contrast environment, where center-weighted metering was used, and the exposre was excellent.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 05:56 PM
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#34. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 25


Paignton, GB
          


>Please look at my post again. I provided a 3rd sample, an
>example of the same black van in a high contrast
>environment, where center-weighted metering was used, and
>the exposre was excellent.

Those images were not in similar conditions - the angle of the sun was very different, the van occupied a different percentage of the frame, and the background was different (less sky). It's quite valid to compare Matrix against CW, but only in the same conditions.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:37 PM
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#48. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 34


JP
          

Mmusicman,

Although I also prefer the exposure in the 3rd photo, I have to agree with Brian's comment that these are really different pictures. Even if they were, it's a moot point because these modes work completely differently. I would love to see some identical photos from the D80 and D70 to compare the matrix modes.

  

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jimdwright Registered since 21st Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 04:49 PM
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#30. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 2


Johnstown, US
          

re black van becoming gray

This has nothing to do with matrix metering. I don't want to talk down if you're already familiar with this.)

The meter did just what it's supposed to do - make the average exposure brightness level = 18% gray.

In general a camera meter is intended to meter something and create an exposure that will make it come out at the 18% gray level of brightness.

The van, which filled most of the frame, is a perfect example of the meter doing what it's designed to do-making what it meters gray. If you take a photo of something that's mostly white, like a wedding dress that fills the frame, you'll get a gray wedding dress - again, the meter's doing what it's supposed to do - give you 18% gray equivalent in terms of brightness.

The second shot in which the black van is small further illustrates the points above. Since black does not dominate the scene and it contains a variety of brightnesses, the metering system took the overall scene and made it "average" brightness - with Matrix apparently checking its database to see what exposure fit with what the 420 points read.

Make a great day!
Jim

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 01:52 AM
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#4. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Lowden, US
          

Lars,

Thanks for commenting on my shots in the first part of this thread. I will take your comments into consideration as I learn more getting the the exposure just right....thanks

I labeled that as “matrix metering success shots” but I really did not mean to say they were perfect exposures. I really wanted to show that it really wasn’t as bad as it was starting to sound. Most of those shots have preserved good highlight detail (some is lost in the resizing for the web) and could be adjusted in post processing. For example the one with the gravel road the detail is still there in the original file. I opened the file, adjusted the brightness and that brought out the color of the gravel and showed alot more detail. Hopefully my post processing skills will improve as I go along.

Some of the earlier posts made it seem like the matrix metering mode was so bad as to be unusable and some were questioning weather they should pass on this camera due this problem. I think the images I posted and the ones that Tokyo Mike posted show that the problem is not unmanageable.

Dave

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
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BJNicholls Gold Member Awarded for his contributions to the community and the Resources Charter MemberWed 11-Oct-06 02:34 AM
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#5. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Salt Lake City, US
          

The D70 and some other Nikon DSLRs tend to underexpose. Perhaps Nikon has finally decided to let the metering work accurately with the D80. People get worked up about blown highlights, even if they're not important to the image. I believe that Nikon and other digital camera makers make their digital cameras underexpose in general.

BJ

Zenfolio gallery

  

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dwayner Registered since 15th Jan 2005Wed 11-Oct-06 03:19 AM
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#6. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 5


Calgary, CA
          

Remember all the posts on the D70 underexposing??? Perhaps if we put the D70 sensor on top of the D80 we would all be happy??

People complained about the D70 underexposing so Nikon ramped up the D80 exposure a little bit. Maybe overcompensated??

  

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peterah Registered since 29th Oct 2005Wed 11-Oct-06 06:23 AM
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#7. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 6


Durban, ZA
          

Based on all the above posts, I must be the only person who thinks that my D80 is working correctly in terms of exposure. When metering a scene with a small DR, the result is slightly underexposed (which is what I have come to expect from my Nikon bodies). When metering a scene that has a high DR (greater than 6 stops), the camera obviously cannot cope and therefore has to make a compromise. In this case, either using a GND filter or changing to spot metering and using exposure compensation are the options you have.

When using the cameras light meter, the camera will always try to centre its exposure about 18% grey - I have tested this by shooting a grey card and the histogram is centred perfectly. When trying to now shoot an image that has a black subject in the majority of the frame the camera is understandably going to make it look grey - this is what it is supposed to do (the D70 did not do this very well and tended to underexpose more than people liked). This is where spot metering and exposure compensation is needed - switching to spot metering on the subject and dialling in 1 to 2 stops of negative compensation would do the trick. I am fairly used to doing this as it is the same technique that was used when shooting with slide film.

At the end of the day the camera is not an intelligent device - it simply responds to user input. Allowing it to make its own decisions in difficult lighting situations will never produce acceptable results IMO.

Anyway, this is just my 10c (inflation here is SA!). YMMV. I for one am reasonably happy with the way my D80 works. Is it perfect? No. Does it produce great results? IMO a definite yes - in fact, they are better than my D200.

Have a great day.
Cheers
Pete
______________________________
Peter Howells
South Africa
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

Peter
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

  

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golf1025 Registered since 01st Nov 2005Wed 11-Oct-06 07:02 AM
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#8. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 7


Amsterdam, NL
          

Refering to petedawson's post #3 I tend to agree with him and conclude that this subject is slowly being discussed to death. However your post set my mind to the following.
If there were only an A, P and M setting and C and CW exposure on the D80, I would probably be perfectly happy dailing in uder- or overexposure or whatever to get the shot right. So what's the point if the added features like 3D and Auto don't work and you have to revert to manual corrections, which in the green Auto setting isn't possible anyway? Surely it can't be Nikon's intention of disapointing amateur photographers (who use Auto mostly)with bad pictures? That's my .02 euros.
Jan

Jan (Amsterdam, NL)
D300 / Nikkor 35mm f2.0D / 50mm f/1.4 / 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 VRII / Nikon 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5D / Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D /SB-600 / Ricoh GR Digital / Tamron AF 17-50 f/2.8 / Sigma 10-20mm Kiron 105mm f/2.8 Lester Dine / Tripod: Benro C-227 w. KS-1 / Sekonic L-308s /Printer: HP B9180

  

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biriem Registered since 09th Oct 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:54 AM
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#10. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 8



          

Jan,

I agree 100% with you. In the auto mode or the scene modes the 3D-Matrix only is available and also can't be corrected manually.
In this modes the results of the D80 should be nicely looking pictures in most cases ( over 90%). If it is possible to make a picture in an auto mode where over 30% of the surface is overexposed,
I think this is bug and should be corrected.

For example this two samples from this thread.


http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882395/DSC0391.700.jpg

I have my D80 since two weeks and I like it very much, but after my first 200 shots with the auto modes I was also surprised about so many overexposed pictures which are unusable in my eyes (not 80% but much more as I have expected).
Now after two weeks I am familiar with the D80 and the results are much better. Now I use the P,A,S,M modes for more flexibility and in the auto modes I use the AE-L button in all situations with a large dynamic range.
But what is with my family - my wife, my son, my daughter -? They all should be able to use the D80 like a snapshot camera in the auto modes with great success. The results should be equal or better than a good compact camera like the Fuji F11. I will test this in the next two weeks, when my children have holidays.

Perhaps it would be a good idea, if Nikon would add a new point in the menu settings like

3D-Matrix behaviour

where the user can move the working point of the 3D-Matrix system.

Just my 2 cents (Euro <g>)

Tom


  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:11 PM
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#45. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 10


NZ
          

Hi,
I agree with biriem and golf1025.

My wife and I went for the D80 because we both love photography. She has a better eye for an image than myself (especially portraits) but she's happy with Scene modes. Basically she's happy with Point and Shoot but with good viewfinder and lenses and flash etc.. I love to fiddle and experiment.
Unfortunately exposure comp cannot be used in the Scenes or fully Auto modes....so she will have to start using Aperture priority.
You could argue that it will be good for her but you could also say that part of the cameras functionality is not up to scratch.

Shame really....we'll see what happens from Nikon.

Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:38 AM
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#9. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 7



          

>Based on all the above posts, I must be the only person who
>thinks that my D80 is working correctly in terms of
>exposure.

So you won't install the new firmware when it will be release !

Now, Nikon admitted that there is a problem.
I think it removes the questionning part of the thread' title : does the D80 overexpose ?
YES, it does, especially on specific situation.

Those who don't see it are either very good to setup their camera, either not aware of what overexposure is, or underestimate the dynamic range of such a camera.


But I guess it's also a problem of recognition. We don't see the same things.
For instance, on this comparison : http://www.kuophotos.com/d80/d80test.html

..many said "normal" looks normal.
Ok, so try to read what's written on the SD Card : if normal is normal, the guy in charge of the printing process at SimpleTech has to be urgently fired !

  

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smithett Registered since 11th Oct 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 09:39 AM
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#11. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 9


GB
          

Have only just joined this thread, so apologies if this has already been said, but the answer if you use matrix metering seems to be to set -0.7 exposure compensation permanently. That stops blown highlights most of the time. I find you have to have the viewer set to 'highlight' mode all the time to check for blowing. Let's hope the software fix is going to be readily available.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Wed 11-Oct-06 09:59 AM
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#12. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 11


Memphis, US
          

I just wanted to add the D50 seems to be a little hot to about -0.3 but I find it easy to overcome. One thing most people do not understand is it is hard to compare a digital sensor to print film since print film is more forgiving and the finale product is post processed by the lab(ie the fuji frontier etc). DSLRs are more like slide film alot less latitude only about 2 stops vs 4 or 5 for print film so you have to be more careful on back lighting.

I used the D80 yesterday for about 5 hours and compared it with my D50 I find them to be similar. Remember when you have a very dark main subject and a very bright back lighting use center wieght this will expose the main subject and take in less from the bright area this usually gives a proper exposure or you could spot meter each area and average the exposure.(this is my favorite in hard lighting situations I still feel my brain is better than a computer).

Last I am sure many are having problems with thier D80's so this is not intended to knock anyone. Godd luck and kind regards. Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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rkwoo Registered since 21st Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 12:30 PM
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#20. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 9


HK
          

Regarding the SimpleTech SD card samples, just wanted to say its often hard judging the correct exposure with the naked eyes only (... and we all have different monitors). I downloaded the SD card images and looked at their histograms in PS. In this case, normal does look alright (I think the absolute best is somewhere between 0 & -0.3EV).
As for the words being blur, I think its mirror shake (I couldn't find any exposure data, so can't confirm).

Regards,
Roy

(disclaimer, I do dial in -0.7EV for my landscape shots to give them a deeper color/tone)

  

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peterah Registered since 29th Oct 2005Wed 11-Oct-06 04:24 PM
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#26. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 9


Durban, ZA
          

>>Based on all the above posts, I must be the only person who
>>thinks that my D80 is working correctly in terms of
>>exposure.
>
>So you won't install the new firmware when it will be
>release !

Well that all depends on what the firmware offers . I would hazard a guess that most owners of the D80 will have learnt how to adjust their cameras to counter the "exposure problem" by the time Nikon release any firmware update.

>But I guess it's also a problem of recognition. We don't see
>the same things.
>For instance, on this comparison :
>http://www.kuophotos.com/d80/d80test.html
>
>..many said "normal" looks normal.

OK, I am of the opinion that the Normal image is ever so slightly underexposed - and viewing the histogram of the image confirms this.

Cheers
Pete

______________________________
Peter Howells
South Africa
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

Peter
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

  

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PrashantK Registered since 30th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 10:20 AM
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#13. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


DE
          

I found that the matrix metering is easily fooled even in very common situations. Canon rebel xti/xt does a very good job with average metering. I'm not sure if this is a sensor or metering problem though.
Check out here - http://www.prashanteju.de/D80.html

Best Regards,
Prashant Khapane
www.prashanteju.de

  

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Ulv Registered since 09th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 11:05 AM
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#15. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 13


SE
          

Hi all,

I am very sorry to pass on the latest email from Nikon European support.
Whilst they yesterday said that they recognised the problem and were working on a solution they today apologised for the incorrect reply.
They do not plan any fix for this, as;
"D80 is using a Matrix II which they think works better under certain conditions"?
Yeah right! They got the last part right anyway, "under certain conditions".

Regards
Lars (not the LarsD80)

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 11:34 AM
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#16. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 15


JP
          

I knew it was too good to be true. Big companies like Nikon don't acknowledge a problem until it's been thoroughly analyzed, a solution is ready, and it's been reviewed by 6 levels of management. Hope is not lost, though, if disatisfied D80 users continue to contact Nikon about their problem.

Mike

  

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vallhall Registered since 11th Oct 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 11:40 AM
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#17. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 15



          

Hey folks

I am new to this forum and not expert or amatour to digital cameraes. I byed the new D80 with Sigma 18-50 2.8 EX lens some days ago and still have my "old" Canon 350D with Canon 17-85IS lens and compared them under the same conditions, both set to "P" mode, and thrust me, the D80 was notaceble better and give better exposeure in the scene i took picure of with brigth sky and dark ground. The details in the 350Ds pic was outwashed compared to D80s, so for my eyes the D80 have correct expousre

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 11:56 AM
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#18. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 15


Paignton, GB
          

>Whilst they yesterday said that they recognised the problem
>and were working on a solution they today apologised for the
>incorrect reply.
>They do not plan any fix for this

Thanks for the update. Whilst what you say will no doubt be taken as bad news, I can't honestly say that I am surprised by Nikon's position. We clearly have a few dissatisfied owners in this thread, and I'm not saying that they are imagining things, but I'll point out that this seems to be the only place on the net where D80 overexposure is being seriously discussed - just try googling it... Ken Rockwell mentions it in passing, but even then says that it's not "wrong", just "different".

For Nikon to acknowledge formally that there is a problem and come up with a fix will take much more convincing evidence than has been presented so far. So, let's see those images (of scenes with manageable dynamic range) where Matrix II is doing a demonstrably bad job...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 02:45 PM
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#21. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 18


PL
          


>Thanks for the update. Whilst what you say will no doubt be
>taken as bad news, I can't honestly say that I am surprised
>by Nikon's position. We clearly have a few dissatisfied
>owners in this thread, and I'm not saying that they are
>imagining things, but I'll point out that this seems to be
>the only place on the net where D80 overexposure is
>being seriously discussed - just try googling it... Ken
>Rockwell mentions it in passing, but even then says that
>it's not "wrong", just "different".
>
>For Nikon to acknowledge formally that there is a problem
>and come up with a fix will take much more convincing
>evidence than has been presented so far. So, let's see
>those images (of scenes with manageable dynamic range) where
>Matrix II is doing a demonstrably bad job...

Please note, that at least on Polish Nikon Forum the problem was also thoroughly addressed - many D80 users noted the tendency for overexposure in matrix mode, and are dissatisfied with the results. We also try refer the problem to Nikon Poland however so far they consequently deny that there is any problem. This of course is not "googlable" due to polish language. But I assume that many national Nikon distributors had been notified about the problem, and I thing that all of us should keep informing them.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 03:14 PM
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#22. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 21


Paignton, GB
          

>...and I think that all of us should keep informing them.

Yes, it is certainly true that the only effective way to get Nikon to do anything about a problem is for a large number of owners to contact them and provide solid evidence. So far in this thread, really clear evidence has been lacking, and I guess it was the same for your compatriots

My point really was that there is little or no discussion of this problem on DPReview, NikonCafe, Fred Miranda, or PhotoNet, and that is unusual for a problem that seemingly affects many D80's.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 03:50 PM
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#23. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 22


PL
          

I dare say that the problem affects all D80, only sensitivity of the users varies. Many advanced photographers never use "matrix" so they might not observe the problem. Obtaining realy clear evidence is also difficult - if shutter does not work it is 0/1 problem. But exposure is much more subtle. One thing that I noticed "numerically" (and this is clearly stays against arguments about too wide a dynamic range): in several pictures I observe about 20% of totaly overblown area (255 in terms of grayscale) whereas the darkest pixels are about 10. Why is there such an "overburning" in light areas if D80 still had some range in the shadows?

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:00 PM
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#36. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 23


Paignton, GB
          

>I dare say that the problem affects all D80, only
>sensitivity of the users varies.

I would agree with that, but it assumes that there is a generic problem, which has not yet been proved. I would venture to re-phrase it slightly: "all D80's have the same matrix exposure algorithms, only the expectation of the user varies"

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 06:09 PM
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#38. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 36


PL
          

Thank you for rephrasing, the only thing I have for excuse is my not being native english speaker . But reading so many almost contradictory opinions one thing comes to my head, namely Nikon should think of some kind of tweaking possibilities for Matrix measurement, at least for those who would use "auto" modes. Actually they did so in Noise Reduction - one can choose more or less "conservative" behaviour.

  

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bernie03sud Registered since 15th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 12:17 PM
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#19. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 15


Munich, DE
          

Hi all,

today I sent a complaint about my D80 overexposing most of the pictures under 3D-MatrixII to Nikon Europe together with sample pictures.

In order to do so, you have to register your camera with the serial number, then you are able to submit requests to Nikon technicians. Alternatively you can call a 0900 number and tell them your problem.

If your D80 is overexposing as well you should tell Nikon about!
Many complaints will make them move faster...

Regards
Bernhard (from Paris)

Bernie form Munich
a german nikonian

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 04:00 PM
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#24. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Not meaning to offend, but Brian, you don't seem to be "getting it". You take the same position as Nikon, which leave me suspicious. You have been presented with clear evidence, which you seem to dismiss. Not "just a few" here are seeing the problem.

I seem to be talking to myself, because I have posted an example of a black van (post #2) where Matrix metering blew the shot out so bad, it's garbage, yet I provided another example of the same black van in the same hi-contrast environment, and with center metering, it came out properly exposed.

Difficult shot, maybe...but no troulbe exposing correctly in the center weighted mode. < < < Should I repeat this?

I have no intention of making this personal, but I don't know how much more I, or the rest of us, can explain it.

You've seen 2 samples posted: same shot: the matrix shot = bad, the center-weighted shot = good.

Not one reply on whether the Matrix mode should look at the whole shot, or just the center...which is what it is currently doing.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:07 PM
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#37. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 24


Paignton, GB
          

>Not meaning to offend, but Brian, you don't seem to be
>"getting it".

Well, someone certainly isn't...

>You take the same position as Nikon, which
>leave me suspicious. You have been presented with clear
>evidence, which you seem to dismiss.

No need to be suspicious. I've seen the same evidence as Nikon, and have come to the same conclusion. Your conclusion is different, which is fine. We don't all have to agree.


>I seem to be talking to myself, because I have posted an
>example of a black van (post #2) where Matrix metering blew
>the shot out so bad, it's garbage, yet I provided another
>example of the same black van in the same hi-contrast
>environment, and with center metering, it came out properly
>exposed.

See my response further up the thread. Those two images were not taken in the same conditions.


>I have no intention of making this personal, but I don't
>know how much more I, or the rest of us, can explain it.

Neither have I. We're all trying to get to the bottom of this. I'd really like to see some convincing evidence of the problem. You could try posting better example images, of scenes with a lower contrast range, and with the same scene taken with Matrix and CW.


Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 09:42 PM
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#53. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 24


JP
          

Mmusicman,

Matrix and center-weighted are apples and oranges. Posting two comparison shots of that van (or some similar composition) with the D80 and the D70 both in matrix mode would be more convincing that the D80 matrix is failing to be as good as matrix can be.

Mike

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 09:48 PM
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#55. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 53


Paignton, GB
          


>Matrix and center-weighted are apples and oranges. Posting
>two comparison shots of that van (or some similar
>composition) with the D80 and the D70 both in matrix mode
>would be more convincing that the D80 matrix is failing to
>be as good as matrix can be.

Agreed. Or maybe with the D80 and D200, since the D70 matrix metering has never been completely free of criticism (it its case, for underexposure)

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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skorj Registered since 19th Aug 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 12:18 AM
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#63. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Fort Erie, CA
          

For those of you in the mood for a long-winded parable, here's a thought..

Back in the day I had an FE which was usually loaded with Fujichrome 100 and an FM-2 with a broken meter that would be loaded with Delta 100. I shot the Fujichrome at 100 iso just like it said on the box, and when I shot I knew that I had to expose so that the slide would look just right on the light table - not too light, not too dark and that areas of pure black generally, but not always, were more acceptable than lost highlight detail. When I shot Delta 100, in accordance the tests outlined in Fred Picker's "Zone VI Workshop", I set my handheld spot meter to 64 iso, developed less than the charts indicated and shot by giving the highlights as much exposure as would preserve detail, letting the other tones fall where they may. If I shot the 100 iso slide film like I shot the 100 iso black & white film they'd look overexposed most of the time, but I shot each film with a different goal in mind. The slides had to look good just as they were while it didn't matter how the negatives looked, they just had to yield the best prints. The exposure that would be considered optimal differed depending on the medium used.

Now there's digital with a different set of characteristics and new ways to think about how to expose for optimal results. I have seen examples in this forum of shots that were overexposed because they were brighter than the final result the maker had in mind. I have also seen, both here and from my own camera, exposures where the highlights were unnecessarily sacrificed in order to bring the shadows up into the midtones. I think it would be helpful if more of us discussed, not just how we think our photographs should be exposed but why we think that way. The answer to our exposure dilemmas probably depend on that as much as anything.

-Joe Iannandrea

www.evermorephotography.com

-Joe Iannandrea

  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Wed 16-Jan-08 01:11 PM
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"RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"


SE
          

Grean Leaves Test..

A, B, C or D. Which is the one you think is "best" exposed?


Best,
Lars


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 02:31 AM
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#64. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


NZ
          

I prefer B, C is OK but a bit light, D is too dark, A is too light.

I agreed with Brian on the tomato and glass shots....

Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 02:42 AM
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#65. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Lowden, US
          

I say C....

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

Nikonians membership -
"My most important photographic investment, after the camera"

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pointwood Registered since 15th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 06:25 AM
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#69. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Aarhus, DK
          

B

--
Jabber ID:
jramskov@jabber.shd.dk

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:02 AM
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#67. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Brian, I am so curious now. You say you haven't been presented with any good evidence of a problem. So...against my better judgement, I'm going to attempt this one step at a time. There are a few here who understand clearly what the problem is, and some that don't. I want to find out what the "disconnect" is.

1) Do you feel this photo shot in Matrix mode is exposed correctly?

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882395/DSC0391.700.jpg

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 08:03 AM
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#70. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 67


Paignton, GB
          

>Brian, I am so curious now. You say you haven't been
>presented with any good evidence of a problem. So...against
>my better judgement, I'm going to attempt this one step at a
>time. There are a few here who understand clearly what the
>problem is, and some that don't.

Let's not allow this to get personal, please.

>1) Do you feel this photo shot in Matrix mode is exposed
>correctly?

As I think I said back in part 1 of this thread, I think the exposure in that shot is a reasonable compromise in very difficult lighting conditions. There a range of "correct" exposures for that scene, depending on the effect you are looking for. To put it a slightly different way, I do not think the exposure in that shot is obviously "wrong" (and that is why I do not think it is a good example to send to Nikon as "evidence"). For what it is worth, I think the exposure in that shot is a better compromise than your other image of a black van, the one taken with CW metering.

So, the "disconnect" here seems to be that you and I expect a different compromise exposure in tricky conditions. That's fine, we are allowed to have different expectations

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Thu 12-Oct-06 09:01 AM
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#74. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 67


Memphis, US
          

This is a shot where matrix is trying to expose a very dark subject and a light background this has been the bane of all photographers for years. I would have shot this shot and used exposure compensation bracketing to ensure I had one useful shot. I never take just one shot in trickey lighting. Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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ARCHK Registered since 11th Nov 2004Thu 12-Oct-06 05:51 AM
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#68. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Baguio City, PH
          

To Joe Iannandrea:

Thank you for taking the time to convey interesting and relevant background information, rare in this thread.

To Pete Dawson:

>>Please, please do not take offence here but I am intrigued by your position through all of this. You really do seem to lean heavily towards refuting examples that may indicate an undesireable behaviour (I won't call it a problem). Yet you are very happy when good behaviour is demonstrated. I'm fairly new here but am starting to wonder if there are any vested interests out there.

The fact that your last statement is in apposition to that stated before implies that Brian may have vested interests biasing his responses. Such an unfounded implication directed personally against another forum member is completely inappropriate for this forum. Do not put Brian in the position of having to justify is intentions; he certainly has shown great moderation and patience in responding to the posts, and never questioning motivation. Please respond in kind. You may not like, or agree, with his perspective, but like you, he has every right to express his POV.

The readers of and contributors to this thread should consider themselves lucky that someone with Brian's knowledge and experience would take the time to contribute. When I read the Nikonians Forum, I always look for Brian's posts. Maybe after some of you are around for a while longer, you will come to appreciate Brian's view.

To Lars regarding the green leaves test:

It is not possible to determine which of these photos is "best exposed", without having carefully observed the lighting on the leaves at the time the pictures were taken. And none of us were there, except you, Lars. That is, if "best exposed" is meant to mean correctly exposed. If "best exposed" is meant to mean: which do you like better?, then it is only a matter of personal taste.

To Scott Smith:

>>Brian, I am so curious now. You say you haven't been presented with any good evidence of a problem. So...against my better judgement, I'm going to attempt this one step at a time. There are a few here who understand clearly what the problem is, and some that don't. I want to find out what the "disconnect" is.
>>1) Do you feel this photo shot in Matrix mode is exposed correctly?

The lighting in your picture is so terrible (bright background, subject with widely varying light range, including highlights), I would't expect any metering of it to be "correct". And honestly, there is no "correct" in this situation, only compromises that can be evaluated from the viewpoint of personal preference.

To all:

As part of my job, I take photos of concrete casting yards. I've taken tens of thousands of such pictures. Pre-cast concrete is a great subject, because in typical diffuse daylight, it is about 18% grey; in reflected bright, but still diffuse daylight, it runs about 1 stop higher; in reflected direct daylight, about 2 to 3 stops higher; and any number of stops lower in shadow regions. Often, concrete pre-cast is fabricated under roof cover, but with no walls, so on sunny days, high level diffuse light appears in the background of many shots.

I have taken most of these pictures with matrix metering on D70s, D200 and D80 cameras. The vast majority come out correctly exposed, with concrete under differing lighting conditions falling in the right place on the histograms, whether or not the dynamic range of the scene is beyond the capabilities of the camera. Tonal fidelity of the subject matter is exactly what is required for these photos - it doesn't matter what the highlights and shadows are doing.

Now you may say that you don't normally take pictures of concrete and your highlights of landscapes look terrible - why can't Nikon optimise a different way? Well, the highlights have a particular tonal relation to 18% grey - anywhere from 1 to 12 stops higher, with the upper limit of the digital sensor two or three stops above 18% grey. You can apply exposure compensation to reduce the brightness of the highlights, but then YOU WILL SHIFT DOWNWARDS THE TONES OF ALL OF THE COLOURS AND THE GREYS WITHIN THE DYNAMIC RANGE: these midrange tones then become incorrect, if reference to the natural scene is your measure.

For Matrix metering, all of my testing indicates that Nikon, for the most part, has chosen the strategy of getting tonal content correct for areas of the scene within the dynamic range of the camera. You may debate this, and say they should have designed matrix metering to get the highlights right, at the expense of tonal accuracy in areas of the scene within the dynamic range of the sensor, "because people like the look of these pictures better". Or better yet, that nonlinear tonal compression (read: DL lighting) should be applied as part of the matrix metering "because people like the look of these pictures even better still".

Nikon has not taken this strategy, but they offer EV compensation and post process DL lighting compensation that you can manually apply, if you wish. Personally, I like Nikon's current strategy. It is true to the scene, up to the limit imposed by the dynamic range of the sensor - you are in control of any changes away from this fidelity.

Regards,




Alan in the Philippines

http://www.arcasia.multiply.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 08:05 AM
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#71. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 68


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks, Alan

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Orbit1 Registered since 08th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 09:48 AM
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#75. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 71


GB
          

I see that the D80 has a 420 pixel sensor and the D70s has a 1005 pixel sensor so what really is the difference in terms of metering quality?

Thanks,

Darren

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 12:23 PM
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#80. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 75


Paignton, GB
          

I'm not sure the number of pixels in the metering sensor will make much difference in this particular discussion. The D50 Matrix II also has 420 pixels, and doesn't seem to attract complaints. The difference in the D80 (whatever it is) is more likely to be due to the way the exposure calculation algorithms are set up in the firmware.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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biriem Registered since 09th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 12:23 PM
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#79. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 71



          

Brian and also Alan,

it would be very interesting for me,
if you could comment the exposure of the following three pictures.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tombiriem/

I have uploaded the original complete jpg files, so you can see the exif information. I used only the "auto" mode for all photos.

I would like to know, whether this results are the maximum I can expect from 3D-Color Matrix II and the D80.

Thanks

Tom


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 12:47 PM
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#82. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 79


Paignton, GB
          

Hi, Tom.

Large black locomotives and bright sky are a difficult combination for any metering system! When I'm photographing steam trains, if they are not moving I tend to use spot metering, taking a reading from the black area and opening up a couple of stops.

I'm not sure my D200 would have coped any better with your subjects. It may not have produced exactly the same result in terms of exposure, but your images are consistent with others posted here, where the D80 Matrix metering has chosen to preserve detail in the shadows at the expense of highlights. That's not right or wrong, it just seems to be the way it is

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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biriem Registered since 09th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:21 PM
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#88. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 82



          

Brian,

>I'm not sure my D200 would have coped any better with your
>subjects. It may not have produced exactly the same result
>in terms of exposure, but your images are consistent with
>others posted here, where the D80 Matrix metering has chosen
>to preserve detail in the shadows at the expense of
>highlights. That's not right or wrong, it just seems to be
>the way it is

I understand, but I thought an auto metering system should reduce the count of unusable shots. I believe the current approach of Nikion's D80 Matrix metering don't do this.

If you would have the opportunity to test the D80 for some days,
I would be very curious whether you are happy with the most of your results in "auto"-mode, like you are with your D200 and your wife's D70.


Tom

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:20 PM
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#96. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 88


PL
          

I was happy with matrix metering in my D50 in about 95% of pictures taken. With about 800 photos taken by D80 almost 80% are usable only after heavy correction - thanks to AdobeLightroom with their new option of highlight recovery.

  

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biriem Registered since 09th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:37 AM
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#124. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 96



          


>I was happy with matrix metering in my D50 in about 95% of
>pictures taken. With about 800 photos taken by D80 almost
>80% are usable only after heavy correction - thanks to
>AdobeLightroom with their new option of highlight recovery.

Thanks for your experience-report. This shows exactly what I mean.
An "auto" mode should make users happy in most cases and not only under certain conditions.
From a technical view Brian and Alan are absolutely right but for a consumer the ratio of positive to negative results is the crucial factor.

But possibly this is a problem of our perception and only you and me and some others here in this thread fell that the hit ratio of the "auto"-modes is too low.
I had a call to Nikon support too and they told me that 200 people which are unhappy with the matrix meter of the D80 are no significant factor to change something. If I see the great problems here in the forum to explain what we mean or what is correct and what is wrong, I fear that the chance for a firmware upgrade is very low.

Tom


  

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peterah Registered since 29th Oct 2005Thu 12-Oct-06 10:21 AM
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#77. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 68


Durban, ZA
          

Thanks for your post, Alan. It certainly makes me think about the photo capture in a different light (excuse the pun)
______________________________
Peter Howells
South Africa
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

Peter
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 11:34 AM
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#78. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 77



          

Hi everyone,

Lars, I would say D, for both.

On the glass (and tomatoes) test, it mught be C, but the tomatoes I have are as red as the one on the D pictures.






  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Wed 16-Jan-08 01:11 PM
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"RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"


SE
          

Here's a slightly different way of viewing the results of the Matrix II metering in the Nikon D80.

It is three series of shots consiting of 18% grey card as background, then I am inserting various shapes and combinations of white paper.

(When measuring with D80's spot metering this white paper is +2 f-stops brighter than the 18% Kodak grey card).



There are 3 sections in this test:
==================================

1 - "White paper pacthes on 18% grey card"

2 - White paper gradually covering 18% card from the top"

3 - White paper gradually covering 18% card from the left"



When you study this test please download the image file and bring it up in photoshop and hover with the mouse over the patches and the grey areas so that you can see the effects of the Matrix II metering.


1 - White patches.

a) One of the most disturbing findings is that image #10 (three patches in the middle) heavlity underexposes and the patches and the grey is a lot darker than it needs to be.

b) We see that the Marix II will allow some white patches on the upper half of the screen whithout darkening the image (clouds).

c) We see that at certain points things are shifting rapidly and drastically. From a shot where it overexposes it can quickly underexpose quite significantly. This means that Just adjusting the picture composition a little but can throw you off my an f-stop or and even more...


2 - White paper from the top

a) Again, we see that it will accept some bright objects in the upper portion of the view finder without lowering exposure. Good, that's the bright sky. However... Whatch the difference beween image #5 and image #6. Here things are shifting quickly and again, out their in the field you have no way of knowing what it is doing.


3 - White paper coming in from the left

This is a strange one.

a) Whats image #1 is all grey. Now watch image #2 where the greay is getting darker as the white is getting into the composition. Now watch #3 where the white has been inserted even more. But now the grey gets brighter (!). Inserting the white paper even furter towards the center of the image, the grey goes down again.

b) Differnce between #5 and #6 is significant but it may just turning the camera a little bit towards the right and the exposure is changing a lot.




My own conclusions of the exposure tests I have made:

a) It is too unreliable to be of any real use if you take pictures where quality is an issue.

b) Some people may say "yuo need to learn how each camera reacts and get familiar with the metering system". Sorry, if you need accurate results there is no way to get accurately familiar with the Matrix II metering (or D70 or any Matrix / evaluating nmetering I think). The laws that govern the way this Matrix II is working according to are way to complex and varying for anyone to get predictable results.

c) The Matrix I metering (and any matrix-style metering) is useful in situations where there really is no time to measure (sports, accidents photo journalism, papparazi, etc ect). So I want the Matrrix II to remain in my camera. I then suggest make the Matrix II shots 0.5 stops darker. That seems to be a reasonable average for it's overexposure (although it does under expose as well, as you can see by the test).


The Matrix II doesn't in any way replace average or spot metering not to speak of using an incident Minolta or Sekonic hand held dome meter!). The Mtarix II meter isn't really giving a good starting point either. Scanning the scene with the spot meter or average meter is really more useful.

The white paper patches as I mentioned in the beginning are +2 f-stops brighter than the grey card. So in Photoshop they should reproduce a little bit under clipping. Like 230-240 or so. They do in image #11 (patches), but that's the only one almost correct.

So for family, party, paparazzi, in the car, some sports, journalism etc - Matrix II and underexpose by -0.3 to -0.7 seems the way to go. Except for this the Matrix is rather useless in my view.

The tests down't cover specifically "over exposure" - another test can be made with a very dark backround, snerting variuos patches of white and 18%. But I personally don't think it is necessary to test the Matrix II anymore now... The principles and problems are rather well defined by now. Also, all the photos that we have seen from various members confirm that this is unreliable at best, and most of the time overexposer (but also underexposure).

I think this problem is bigger in SLR cameras than in cameras where the metering circuits can evaluate a video signal.

When I look at the image in the post, I realise it is impossible to go out and expect anything accurate using Matrix II. Or any other auto-mode metering.

I don't think the D80's auto exposure is any worse than anything else there. Someone may come up with more clever methods. At the moment though, I'm happy with the D80 (very happy ) and I feel that with this test I know the difficulties with Matrix II.


Best,
Lars



PS. Regarding the A, B, C and D images I have posted I thank you for evaluating these. It confirms well my own feeling. The D80 in Matrix is often producing images that are +0.3 to +1.0 overexposed. I'd say aveage +0.5 overexposed.


I'm not going to wear out my shutter anymore now for exposure tests... Instead I will use the spot meter and average meter and my hand held meter sometimes. And of course my gray card Or just test shoot first...

The D80 is an extremely pleasant camera to use and the Matrix II performance in no way makes the D80 less attractive.























Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 12:37 PM
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#81. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks for the further tests, Lars.

To be quite honest, although they results are interesting, all they demonstrate to me is that Matrix metering (in the D80) is much more complex than simply averaging exposure across a range of tones, or exposing merely to protect highlights and/or shadows. It is attempting to be more "intelligent" than that, using a database derived from real-life scenes to make its evaluation of optimum exposure. We should not be surprised that results in an artificial environment like this are not "linear".

We're probably doing this argument to death, but since you also conclude from your D80 testing that Matrix II is of very limited use in other Nikon cameras, and in general is difficult to get to know, let me just say that my D200 and my wife's D70 (as well as my F80 and F100 in the past) spend about 95% of their time in Matrix with no compensation applied. Clearly, it can work well a lot of the time.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:01 PM
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#83. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 81


SE
          

Absolutely Brian, the Matrix can certainly work "a lot of the time" as you say.

However, if a company is *paying* you to take beautiful, accurate and professional pictures then shooting one shot of each scene with the Matrix is not a good idea. It's a very bad idea in fact.

I think using the Matrix even for less demanding use will require you to make bracket two shot exposures, one as the Matrix suggests, and one that is -0.7 f-stop. That way you sort have insured yourself and hopefully with postproduction are able to rescue things fairly ok, especially if shooting NEFs...

But again, it is *impossible* for the Matrix II to be right.

If this was a camera using neg film, the Matrix II would be the metering I would use 90% of the time...

For slides and digital, no.

But I love my D80


Any ideas for another dramatic exciting topic Brian...?


best,
Lars

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 01:42 PM
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#89. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 83


Paignton, GB
          

>But again, it is *impossible* for the Matrix II to be right.

You're entitled to your views, Lars (I do share a lot of them), and our members seem to appreciate the logical, practical way you have approached this problem. However, members who may be less experienced than you, and who are perhaps coming to rely on your conclusions, could well infer from that statement that Matrix II will never give a "correct" exposure. That is taking things too far, and is doing a disservice to yourself and to them.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 07:55 PM
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#105. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 81


NZ
          

Brian,

Re post #85. You are happy with matrix 95% of the time on a D70 or D200. Cool..

I get the real impression that the D80 is not like this and there is no reason why it shouldn't be. It's just a shame.

Pete

ps. Sorry for late responses I'm in New Zealand.

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:01 PM
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#84. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0



          

>PS. Regarding the A, B, C and D images I have posted I thank
>you for evaluating these. It confirms well my own feeling.
>The D80 in Matrix is often producing images that are +0.3 to
>+1.0 overexposed. I'd say aveage +0.5 overexposed.


So can you tell us what were the correct exposition, I mean the closest from what you've seen ?






  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:06 PM
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#85. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 84


SE
          

Of course, I'm sorry, I forgot:


In all the A, B, C and D images the exposures were:

A = Matrix II as it suggests to expose.
B = -0.3
C = -0.7
D = -1.0

None has suggested A as the exposure of their liking. Most are B and C which I interpret as the D80 overexposing 0.3 or 0.7 or so on these shots.

But... as the grey/white suggests, it can underexpose too.


Best,
Lars



  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:16 PM
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#86. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 85



          

Thanks Lars,

I was sure that a blind test (I mean a test with one sense as judge) was the only way to prove overexposure, specially to the more reluctant.


Thanks for all you've done here.

Guillaume

  

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michael_tn Registered since 23rd Mar 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 01:18 PM
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#87. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          


>PS. Regarding the A, B, C and D images I have posted I thank
>you for evaluating these. It confirms well my own feeling.
>The D80 in Matrix is often producing images that are +0.3 to
>+1.0 overexposed. I'd say aveage +0.5 overexposed.
>
>

on average where the images clipped on the histogram or merely
exposed to the right?

-- michael

  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 02:03 PM
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#90. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 87


SE
          

Sometimes clipping in the hist.
Sometimes not.

When it's not clipping it can still look overexposed. So for JPG's that don't lend themselves very well for post editing and tweaking it's to be avoided.

Some may argue that as long as you get the dynamic range captured you can rely on post editing / tweaking of NEFs. This is partly true. But then photographers using Matrix II to save time or because the shot isn't really crucial to their relationships with clients may not want to spend time with NEF editing either...

Then there are the "transients" or small spikes that sometimes are very difficult to see on the histogram. Those important little transients that makes a nature shots looks crisp and natural. If those transients are clipped it will result in a duller, less crisp image, even if the overall RGB levels are brought down. SO just bringing it down a bit in NEF might still mean loosing natural transient details.

JPG's can only cope with 8-bit so when it becomes JPG it better be right.

I see very few alternatives to a reasonable exposure right when you click the shutter.

Postediting NEFs are 12 bit, s a little better than JPG 8 bit. But not as good as Hasselblads 16 bits of course and therefore exposure work needs to be more exact in a Nikon 8/12 bit than in a 16 bit camera.


Best,
Lars






  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 02:13 PM
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#91. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 90


Garland, US
          

Lars, your spikes comment brought up somethign that I had forgotten about. I have my D80 set to image review, and I almost always leave it set to review the 3 channel histograms immediately after it takes the shot. Have you (or anyone else) noticed the histogram actually shifting after a few seconds? What I mean is that if I look at the histogram immediately (less than 1 second after the shutter fires), the histogram will look smooth, or bell curvish for lack of a better term, but then if I turn of the image review and then turn it back on, the histogram *sometimes* has shifted to the right and I do have some spikes in the shadows/midtones that weren't there immediately after I took the shot! Could the camera be applying a second curve after the picture is taken that is leading to these poor transients in the shadows/midtones?

  

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Eduardoo Basic MemberThu 12-Oct-06 02:43 PM
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#93. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 87


Quito, EC
          

My own conclusion after 1000 shots is that the Matrix Metering system of the D80 actually overexposes about 1 f stop.

My solution? I am not using that mode anymore. I used Matrix with my previous D70 and never had a doubt about getting the correct exposure (or at least an exposure close enough that can be adjusted in PS) Not so with the D80. I am using Center Weighted as my “default” mode now, occasionally going to spot for very specific scenes.

Other than that, I think the D80 is a marvelous camera.

Regards,

Eduardo.

  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:17 PM
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#95. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 93


SE
          

>My own conclusion after 1000 shots is that the Matrix
>Metering system of the D80 actually overexposes about 1 f
>stop.
>
>My solution? I am not using that mode anymore. I used Matrix
>with my previous D70 and never had a doubt about getting the
>correct exposure (or at least an exposure close enough that
>can be adjusted in PS) Not so with the D80. I am using
>Center Weighted as my “default” mode now, occasionally going
>to spot for very specific scenes.
>
>Other than that, I think the D80 is a marvelous camera.
>
>Regards,
>
>Eduardo.


Saying it is overexposing 1 f-stop is wrong. It *can* do that. It can also over expose with +0.3. And it can under expose. It's imperfect artificial intelligence and it isn't 100%. But generalizing it *is* overexposing a bit.

If you shoot an 18% grey card and fill the screen it is exposing perfectly accurate...

Best,
Lars

  

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Eduardoo Basic MemberThu 12-Oct-06 03:29 PM
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#98. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 95


Quito, EC
          

>Saying it is overexposing 1 f-stop is wrong. It *can* do that. It >can also over expose with +0.3. And it can under expose. It's >imperfect artificial intelligence and it isn't 100%. But >generalizing it *is* overexposing a bit.

>If you shoot an 18% grey card and fill the screen it is exposing >perfectly accurate...

Mine is not a scientific conclusion, it is based on my perception looking at the results I am getting with my pictures.

In my subjective opinion, the type of pictures I take come out overexposed by about 1 f stop.

I am not shooting too many gray cards these days…

  

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jimdwright Registered since 21st Jul 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:42 PM
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#141. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Johnstown, US
          

The white pieces on 18% gray were an outstanding illustration of the challenges of getting consistently good exposures with D80's Matrix.

I had been greatly surprised to discover when in nearly duplicate outdoor exposures, the introduction of a white car caused the sky to blow out. If it had been adding a black car with exposure trying to "normalize" I would have understood.

I've fortunately had very few bad experiences with Matrix so far - only 800-900 exposures, but the few I've had have taught me to be quite wary and careful to check the LCD for shots that aren't one-of-a kind and can be re-shot if necessary.

Make a great day!
Jim

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 07:35 PM
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#104. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 68


NZ
          

To Alan in Hong Kong,

Thank you very much for your input. I fully understand what you are saying.
I didn't intend to upset Brian and I do not believe my wording did judging by his reply. As I said I'm new here and I'm not sure exactly how Nikonians operates financially or otherwise.

Clearly you are extremely experienced jugding by your background info. What you say makes total sense.

I still feel that there are more cases of overexposure with this camera in situations that not as extreme as described in your post.

This is how I currently feel about it:

1. The capability of the camera as a sophisticated P&S (ie good viewfinder, long/good lens) for things like grab shots of the kids is a maybe bit compromised. By the time you've checked the histogram dialled in exp comp to suit the moment may have gone. I am not ashamed to admit that this is one mode in which we use this camera.

2. Background - My experience is really two decades of film photography surrounding outdoor sports, climbing, kayaking, paragliding. Enthusiastic amateur winning a few competitions and publishing a few articles in magazines. With this type of stuff the main thing was always 'being there'. I know it's a cliche. So, to be honest I've never been worrying too much about 0.5EV difference in exposures.

My point - I am now learning SO much about correct exposure, latitude, and histogram use through the digital medium. It is just superb that you can bracket, experiment etc with zero cost.

I hope all of this isn't regarded as seriously off topic but as someone pointed out I think it's useful to know a bit about who you're talking to. Professionally I'm a Software Engineer.

Enjoying the discussion.

Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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ARCHK Registered since 11th Nov 2004Sat 14-Oct-06 05:31 AM
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#157. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 104


Baguio City, PH
          

Hi Pete,

One of the most remarkable aspects of this forum is the respect shown towards one another in most of the postings. It is extremely useful in the give-and-take of these correspondences, especially in getting through controversial subjects. Those who have been around for a while have come to really value this quality, and perhaps, at times, defend it a little too vehemently. My apologies if this put you back a bit.

In my attempt to better understand the criticisms being leveled against the matrix metering, I took my wife's D80 (with a 50/1.8 lens) out yesterday in HK to intentionally find scenes with difficult lighting: daytime street scenes with irregular skylines,very bright skies, and shadowy at street level; intermediate and changing evening lighting, night scenes dominated by street lights and neon signs; and the night market with harsh direct lighting and deep shadows. I had previously done similar with the D200. Settings were typically the following: sharpness +1; tone compensation: none; saturation: none or enhanced; hue: 0; aperture controlled; ISO: 200-1600; white balance: generally auto - 2, but under incandescent light, incandescent 0 to +3.

After the end of the evening, I was left with these opinions:

1) Matrix metering: Generally very good. During the daytime, with a fairly regular skyline or buildings set against a bright sky, the sky still had some colour and much shadow detail near street level was preserved. I did not experience much of the over exposure reported by others in this thread. The pictures were pleasant to look at.

Some shots proved to be difficult: where the skyline deeply infringed into the photo center (the focus point) between closely spaced buildings, and street signs were present over the road between the buildings, partially blocking the sky (thus bright and dark areas in the centre of the shot), the metering attempted to resolve correctly the bright areas, leaving the surrounding areas and the centred signs much too dark with little shadow detail. The pictures were not particularly pleasant to look at. The same occurred in the night market where complex shapes of light and dark appeared in the center of the scene.

By comparison, the D200 seemed to handle the difficult lighting situations better, and by better, I mean closer to how I would have optimised the shot, had I been in charge of the metering. Of course, the results were easily improved by looking at the result on the LCD, applying exposure compensation, and re-taking the shot, or by using exposure bracketing for the complex lighting situations, like any other reasonably experienced photographer would have done in similar situations. In easier lighing, I did not detect any significant difference between the D200 and the D80 in matrix metering.

2) Saturation: The enhanced saturation setting on the D200 appears more conservative and more to my liking. I actually use it sometimes. I do not like the enhanced saturation setting, thus far, on the D80 - it yields images whose colours are too rich for my liking.

Compared to the D200, I have noticed saturated reds occurring with the D80 more often than with blue and green, and in situations where the scene (or light) is not always red dominated. The D200 is known to have aggressive IR filtering, which is one of the reasons why it is known as a great portrait camera, and the reason why it is a bad IR camera. I do not know about such filtering with the D80, but judging by the occurance of these saturated reds, I would suspect that it may be a very good IR camera.

3) White balance: Seems to work very well, except in incandescent light, where it must be set manually. This seems to be the case with all Nikon DSLRs.

4) Sharpness: I found with slow shutter speeds and no VR, it is more difficult to achieve sharp shots (as with the D70) than with the D200 (or the F6). I have come to believe that this is caused by the difference in weights of the cameras, particularly when the D200 and F6 are used with their respective vertical grips. So maybe a heavy camera is not so bad after all!

Overall view: The D80 is a great camera. Would I (or more precisely, my wife) buy it again? Yes. Is it perfect? no. Can one live with its imperfections? Yes. Is it better than the D70? Yes. Is it better than the D200? No. Is it better than the F6? Ummm...I won't go there!

Regards,

Alan in the Philippines

http://www.arcasia.multiply.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 02:17 PM
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#92. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Garland, US
          

FYI...In response to the samples and my questions/complaints that I emailed Nikon USA support with, they have asked me to send in my camera to have it serviced.

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:07 PM
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#94. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 92



          

>FYI...In response to the samples and my questions/complaints
>that I emailed Nikon USA support with, they have asked me to
>send in my camera to have it serviced.


Nikon France asked me exactly the same

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:26 PM
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#97. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 94


PL
          

That would mean it is not simple "software" problem

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 04:16 PM
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#100. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 97



          

>That would mean it is not simple "software" problem

I guess they are just trying to avoid any reply by mail.

I sent two pictures yesterday to the French Nikon Support, the answer was : send us your camera.

I'm pretty sure that, until Nikon has decided to do anything, they will deny any malfunction.





  

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LarsD80 Registered since 06th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 03:44 PM
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#99. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 94


SE
          

Another way of looking at all this (the Matrix II mysteries) is this:

All D80 owners can really rest assured they have the finest piece of photographic equipment.

Why not forget about the Matrix II and instead learn how to use the spot metering and center weighted metering...?

Some experimenting - which is fun and rewarding - will in most cases lead to signficantly *better* exposures than with the Matrix II.

Using the spot metering together with the zoom and finding the whitest areas in the scene and knowing where ther will "land" will give excellent control over the image. "Scanning" the image through the viewfinder with the spot-metering active and visualizing what this will look like isn't something impossible. Actually it is a very precise and reliable method...

Once this art is mastered using the D80 is much more fun and and it will provide 99% control of what you do.

With the Matrix II there will always be a "filter", "wall" or a "distance" between the photographer and the image. (And random result)

Regardless if Nikon will update the Matrix II firmware, spotmetering and human, manual interpretation of spot metering readings will be far superior.

And using the D80 will be a more rewarding and satisfying experience. And for sure, more accurate exposures. An not only "accurate". Exposures will look like *you want* them to look.

Tip: Spend a day with the D80, *ONLY* using spotmetering and I bet many will look at Matrix II as something not so intersting anymore...

I've made so many posts now so I shall keep my mouth shut for a while and do some work over here... See you next week perhaps

Best,
Lars


  

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Orbit1 Registered since 08th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 05:54 PM
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#103. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 99


GB
          

>Why not forget about the Matrix II and instead learn how to
>use the spot metering and center weighted metering...?
>
But surely if the matrix metering system is reliable and accurate on other Nikon cameras, then why shouldn't it be on the new D80 ? I hope there'll be an answer to address user's concerns from Nikon very soon.

PS. i've noticed that this subject has started to be discussed on dpreview as well.

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 09:33 PM
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#111. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 99


JP
          

Lars,

This thread turned out to be a major disappointment. In the few useful posts that compared D80 matrix to other camera's (D70 and D50) matrix, there were very mixed opinions. And all your other testing was mostly a bunch of pseudoscience that resulted in mixed conclusions.

Your opinion is very strong, but your arguement was not convincing. It still comes down to an exposure preference. By the way, posting the samples with all D80 images being "A" is an easy way to skew a poll.

>Why not forget about the Matrix II and instead learn how to
>use the spot metering and center weighted metering...?

Boy, this is frustrating. Many of us suggested this at the beginning of the thread and were lambasted. Now you're presenting it as new wisdom?!

Mike

  

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rkwoo Registered since 21st Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 05:22 PM
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#101. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


HK
          

A few thoughts about the matrix meter in D80:

1) from all the tests done here, elsewhere and my personal experience, I know the meter (and the default settings on D80) tends to produce a bright, saturated, "consumer" styled pictures.

2) in trying to achieve this, sometimes highlights nearer to the edge of the frame would be blown in highly contrasting scenes. This seldom happens to highlights near the center.

With this information in mind, its easier to predict what the meter will do. This has helped me make use of the matrix meter more effectively, for example:

Landscapes: I tend to prefer deeper color/tone/mood here, and not the default "brightness", so I have the camera on -0.7EV. If I need to preserve the texture of the clouds, this ought to do it without significantly underexposing the scene or my subject. It works about 80% of the time (the exposure needs to be further adjusted when a) the subject should be or I want it to look very dark. this is where the D70 with its underexposure might "beat" D80, b) background very dark, and subject too small).

Interior/indoor: the normal "D80 look" is fine here, and I don't mind the lights/windows being blown out. So 0.0EV as default.

Portraits: normal is ok, but with portraits, its difficult to discover when there is a problem (the red channel is the one that gets blown, and since green & blue are ok, this won't show up in the highlights indicator). So -0.3EV for added insurance. This works about 70% of the time (for me portraits can be a little complicated... for backlit portraits, light never strikes the subjects directly. 0.0EV is fine. however, for portraits set against a dark background, a -0.7EV adjustment or more would be needed, same as my D70).

In general, I tend to agree with the others here that -0.3EV, rather than the "consumer look", is what I prefer. If I have to shoot in JPEG and print the results without post processing, then -0.3EV (and perhaps slightly less saturation?) would also be my default choice (and IMHO, the results are significantly better than my D70).

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 05:50 PM
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#102. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Bryan, I am very curious about asking you another question. I assure you I am not trying to single you out other than that you are the most vocal in Nikon's defense.

Question #2) I am curious to know your "interpretation" of what MatrixII metering is supposed to do, and then tell me (your interpretation) of how it differs from spot metering.

(I apologize if you've already answered this, as this thread has gotten quite long.)

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 08:13 PM
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#106. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 102


Paignton, GB
          


>Question #2) I am curious to know your "interpretation" of
>what MatrixII metering is supposed to do, and then tell me
>(your interpretation) of how it differs from spot metering.

OK, I don't mind being put on the spot! I have to say (again), though that I'm not trying to defend Nikon. I've just been trying to get people to post some good examples of the D80 overexposing in average conditions. Today, we are getting a few such posts.

Anyway, back to the question. Here's how I see it (I deliberately haven't checked any "official" definitions - this is all out of my head!)

Matrix: this metering system is based on an "artificial intelligence" system of some kind. It reads the level of illumination at a large number of points in the scene, compares that illumination pattern with a large database of typical images, and calculates what it considers to be the best compromise (note - I didn't say "correct") exposure for the scene. No-one outside Nikon knows how the calculation works exactly, nor what is in the database - all we see is the result. A common characteristic of Matrix is that, until the photographer has experience with the particular camera, it can be difficult to predict how it will react to individual scenes, particularly those with tricky lighting. I didn't "trust" Matrix at first on my F100, but it won me over...

Spot: this is much simpler. It measures the level of illumination of the part of the scene within the spot sensor area, and chooses an exposure to render that tone as "standard grey", ignoring all other areas of the scene.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 08:47 PM
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#108. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 106


NZ
          

Hi,

As someone else mentioned this issue is now showing up on the dpreview.com forum for the D80.

Very similar comments and conclusions. Overexposure (I know it's subjective) by +0.3 or +0.7EV.

Most annoying seems to be that it is unpredictable. More of this and it's hard to imagine no reaction from Nikon. Everyone seems happy with the D200 matrix strategy. So, let's hope they give us that in a firmware release at some point.

Cheers
Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 08:58 PM
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#109. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 108


Paignton, GB
          


>As someone else mentioned this issue is now showing up on
>the dpreview.com forum for the D80.

Yes, but they are a long way behind Nikonians. Only a handful of posts in the thread, where we've had nearly 250...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 09:08 PM
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#110. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 109


NZ
          

Brian,

You are dead right. Interesting to see that...clearly this is the place to be!

They are even referring people to solutions offered here.

Cheers
Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 10:33 PM
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#112. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 110


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Brian, thanks for explaining your "perspective" on Matrix metering, and for answering my 1st question directly. I think I've found the "disconnect" here. I'll start with question #1.

Question #1 was: >1) Do you feel this photo shot in Matrix mode is exposed correctly?

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882395/DSC0391.700.jpg

Your reply:

As I think I said back in part 1 of this thread, I think the exposure in that shot is a reasonable compromise in very difficult lighting conditions....I do not think the exposure in that shot is obviously "wrong" (and that is why I do not think it is a good example to send to Nikon as "evidence")]

This is where we have a problem. You believe that while a "difficult" shot, it is exposed correctly. I seriously have to question your judgement. The van may be exposed correctly, but the OVERALL shot is O-V-E-R-E-X-P-O-S-E-D! No amount of processing can bring back what was clipped out of the shot! Blues skies, clouds, trees, and other detail...ALL GONE! It's GARBAGE!

If I wanted "spot metering", then the shot would be correct. But I wasn't SPOT metering, I was Matrix metering. That's why I asked you your interpretation of "Matrix" metering.

x2stew got it right on! It's worth repeating!..
>I agree, matrix II should expose for the whole scene because
>if I wanted to expose for the center I would choose center
>weighted! I just can't understand why some are defending
>the matrix II when it clearly does not do what the manual
>states. let me quote:
>
>3D Color Matrix II: Recommended in most situations. Camera
>meters a wide area of the frame and sets exposure according
>to distribution of brightness, color, distance, and
>composition for natural results.
>
>To me, there is nothing natural about the D80 matrix II
>metered shots. Every single one of them is brighter than
>the scene actually was. If you look at the histograms of my
>D80 shots, you will see the blown highlights in almost every
>channel of every shot.

AMEN! x2stew...YOU COULDN'T BE MORE CORRECT!!! By Nikon's own explaination, the camera is not performing correctly. I tested the metering "area", and discovered the Matrix metering works very close to "spot metering". It is NOT metering "wide", and it is NOT exposing for "natural results".

It's supposed to meter a "wide area" of the shot...not just the center. I have plenty of other pictures (not of black vans) where most of the shot is blown out. I have discovered that red & purple objects react as badly as a black centered object.

Brian, I can't say this enough. If I wanted a "spot metered" shot, I would have chosen that. To me, it's very unprofessional to take an outdoor shot where the blue skies are BLOWN into oblivion!

Biriem's train photo examples are all blown! They are GREAT examples of BAD matrix metering! (no offense Tom) Those could have been beautiful shot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tombiriem

Brian, this is where you blew me away. You wrote:

"For what it is worth, I think the exposure in that <#1> shot is a better compromise than your other <#2> image of a black van, the one taken with CW metering."

VAN SHOT #1 http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882395/DSC0391.700.jpg

VAN SHOT #2 http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/236/236316/pages/882413/DSC1055.700.jpg

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!!! If shot #1 looks better to you, then there is nothing more I can say to you. THERE IS OUR DISCONNECT. The exposure is garbage in #1, but despite the "difficulty" of the shot, it came out nice in #2...PROVING THE SHOT IS POSSIBLE!

Brian, while I question your judgement, I must respect your opinion, and apologize if I was too direct. You obviously have your preferences on what you like, and you are entitled to it. I just needed to know how someone could "defend" an obvious problem, that so many here can see. I will not direct any more questions to you.

There are many here who have attempted to post "technical" examples of the D80's exposure issues. I have found that in most outdoor shots, Matrix II metering FAILS, unless you have a light color in the center of your shot.

I love my D80! It's the BEST camera I've ever owned. I have also "learned" how to get GREAT shots with it. Anyone considering this camera will be thrilled, as long as they don't use it outdoors in the AUTO mode.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 05:17 AM
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#119. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 112


Paignton, GB
          

>>As I think I said back in part 1 of this thread, I
>>think the exposure in that shot is a reasonable compromise
>>in very difficult lighting conditions....I do not think the
>>exposure in that shot is obviously "wrong" (and that is why
>>I do not think it is a good example to send to Nikon as
>>"evidence")
>
>This is where we have a problem. You believe that while a
>"difficult" shot, it is exposed correctly.

Well there you are - as everyone can see, I did not say it was "exposed correctly", I said it was a reasonable compromise. If you're going to mis-interpret what I post, we're not going to get very far.

>The van may be exposed correctly, but the OVERALL
>shot is O-V-E-R-E-X-P-O-S-E-D!
>No amount of processing can bring back what was clipped out
>of the shot! Blues skies, clouds, trees, and other
>detail...ALL GONE! It's GARBAGE!

There is no need to shout. We get your message. To repeat - in that shot, it was impossible to expose correctly for both van and sky. The metering has chosen to get the van looking better than the sky. That is not "wrong", its just a choice.

>Brian, I can't say this enough.

Actually, you have already said it enough.

>Brian, this is where you blew me away. You wrote:
>
> "For what it is worth, I think the exposure in that
><#1> shot is a better compromise than your other <#2> image
>of a black van, the one taken with CW metering."

Sorry about that - I did not check back on the earlier thread before replying. Shot 2 looks nicer than shot 1. Shot 2 is a different compromise, but the lighting, angle and composition make it less tricky.

>I will not direct any more questions to you.

Great!

>There are many here who have attempted to post "technical"
>examples of the D80's exposure issues. I have found that in
>most outdoor shots, Matrix II metering FAILS, unless you
>have a light color in the center of your shot.

Youy're clearly not alone, but others have found differently. Why don't you send your D80 in for service, but PLEASE do yourself a favour - send some better examples in with it, otherwise they're just going to send it back and say it's doing the best it can

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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MarkSD Registered since 24th Sep 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 04:00 AM
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#168. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 119


US
          

Hi Brian,

I'm new to this forum so I don't know your history of posting but on this topic I have to admit that you really seem intent on arguing a position "nothing is wrong" to the point of making sure you don't give an inch.

You don't seem to want to address the idea that blown heighlights are OK with center weighted or spot meter but *not* OK with Matrix. In the numerous Matrix examples shown with blown hightlights, you explain this is what you would expect and then give what amounts to a explanation of center weighted metering.

Why do I care? Because I had a D80 and returned it for what I actually consider a worse issue than blown highlights ... the unpredictability of the metering. I only had 2 weeks to test and really like every other aspect. In fact, I want Nikon to fix this so I can happily buy a D80. But with poeple such as yourself so resolutely saying no issue, fewer people report a problem to Nikon.

I've shown many family members pics from the D80. On almost all of the high contrast shots, the comments are "that one didn't turn out so good".

My previous camera was a D50 and I rarely had this issue. To those who say the D50 and D80 meter similarly, I have to disagree.

-- Mark

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 15-Oct-06 08:53 AM
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#169. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 168


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks for you post, Mark, and welcome to Nikonians! I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'll just repeat that I'm not saying there is no problem. I am saying that many of the images initially posted here to illustrate the problem were not good examples, and I'm not surprised that Nikon, on seeing such examples, could not verify the problem. It is clear from the better examples posted more recently that the D80 Matrix exposes differently from other Nikon bodies in some conditions. It is also clear from examples that D80 Matrix can give good exposures in some conditions.

As for my "history", I am a Moderator in this and other Nikonians Forums, and as such I have no axe to grind either way. I think many longer-serving members would tell you that I have acted as a sort of "voice of reason" in many contentious threads over the past couple of years. Unfortunately, doing so can be seen as combative by those who are less open-mined about a problem. In this thread, I have been trying to ensure that our membership as a whole gets a balanced picture of this issue. I have given honest answers to sometimes provocative questions.

I don't own a D80, so I cannot post from my own experience. This means I am limited to making suggestions about how members could verify whether they have a problem, and helping them produce examples of the problem that Nikon is not going to reject. Some members don't seem to want to listen to that, which is up to them

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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MarkSD Registered since 24th Sep 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 12:34 PM
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#170. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 169


US
          

Being a moderator is a lot work, so I applaud you for that.

>>> D80 Matrix exposes differently from other Nikon bodies in some conditions

I guess I'm still looking for you to explain how Matrix *should* work in high contract shots. You alluded to preserving shadow detail but keep dodging your interpretation of how this should work in high contrast shots.

I agree with the description in the manual. I also look at it this way. First there should be a metering mode (matrix) that evaluates the entire picture and produces the best balanced exposure *without* losing detail. Following on this, shadow detail is easier to bring back than blown hightlights (nearly impossible). In fact, Nikon devotes an entire playback screen to show blown highlights -- they must consider this something to manage (I don't see a similar screen for lost shadow detail).

Again, how do you think matrix *should* work as opposed to how the manaul describes it? How do you think it should work in high contrast shots?

-- Mark

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 15-Oct-06 01:03 PM
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#172. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 170


Paignton, GB
          

>Being a moderator is a lot work, so I applaud you for that.

Thank you

>I guess I'm still looking for you to explain how Matrix
>*should* work in high contract shots. You alluded to
>preserving shadow detail but keep dodging your
>interpretation of how this should work in high contrast
>shots.

My explanation of how I think matrix works, in reply 110, is valid for any scene:

Matrix: this metering system is based on an "artificial intelligence" system of some kind. It reads the level of illumination at a large number of points in the scene, compares that illumination pattern with a large database of typical images, and calculates what it considers to be the best compromise exposure for the scene.

That is, in my opinion, "how it works". If you are asking what sort of results I think Matrix should produce in high-contrast scenes, then I do not believe there is a simple answer. When it is not possible to preserve detail in shadows and in highlights, the best compromise exposure will depend on individual preference. If the photographer's preference matches that of the metering algorithms, then thay are happy. If not, there is a problem. My own preference would depend on the subject and the circumstances. If you interpret that as "dodging the question", then I'm sorry, but there is no other answer I can honestly give.

I don't see how this quite personal discussion is advancing the thread. My preferences, and yours, are not relevant to others. Some members here seem happy with the Matrix metering of the D80, others are not. Those who are not happy should either raise it with Nikon (and at the risk of being repetitive, provide some good examples), or select a different camera.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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MarkSD Registered since 24th Sep 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 12:54 PM
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#171. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 169


US
          

Here is an example comparision:

D80
http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66627752

D50
http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66629083

Compare the detail in the fence, the grass, the building in the haze. In fact, I actually compared the color/saturation of the grass in real life and on the monitor. The D50 was closer to the actual color/saturation.

Most telling of the blown highlights and lost detail is the top of the tree in the center.

And for some quick snaps, compare the shots:

D80
http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66627769

D50
http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66629089

Ignoring the out of focus, composition, etc. and only looking at the metering, the D80 shot didn't handle the contrast nearly as well. Also, look at the perimeter of the fur which has a green cast. Nothing close to that on the D50. BTW, I agree that these are not exact comparisons but Chip hasn't graduated from modeling school yet and prefers not to sit.

-- Mark

  

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vallhall Registered since 11th Oct 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 01:21 PM
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#173. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 171



          

>Here is an example comparision:
>
>D80
>http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66627752
>
>D50
>http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66629083
>
>Compare the detail in the fence, the grass, the building in
>the haze. In fact, I actually compared the color/saturation
>of the grass in real life and on the monitor. The D50 was
>closer to the actual color/saturation.
>
>Most telling of the blown highlights and lost detail is the
>top of the tree in the center.
>
>And for some quick snaps, compare the shots:
>
>D80
>http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66627769
>
>D50
>http://www.pbase.com/jrbirdman/image/66629089
>
>Ignoring the out of focus, composition, etc. and only
>looking at the metering, the D80 shot didn't handle the
>contrast nearly as well. Also, look at the perimeter of the
>fur which has a green cast. Nothing close to that on the
>D50. BTW, I agree that these are not exact comparisons but
>Chip hasn't graduated from modeling school yet and prefers
>not to sit.
>
>-- Mark


Did you use "P/Automode"?.

The pic of the dog is from different angle, so i dont know if its fair to compare them

  

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peedy Registered since 09th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 10:33 PM
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#113. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 110



          

This is funny to read this thread...A friend at work told me about this thread and ironic....Today I went to buy a D80 and somewhat discourage with what I found so now thinking about it for a couple of days and reading some threads....

I currently own a D50 for 1 year now...Prior to getting the D50 I looked into a D70s but as many stated the pics were underexposed while the D50 were very vivid and bright on the viewfinder and while printing. This was a big decision factor that lead me to the D50.

For some time I have been gearing up for the D80 exctied about all of its features. However, today when trying out the D80 and the D50
the salesman and I found that the D80 was UNDEREXPOSING more than the D50. This is a well known camera shop in the area that deals in high end equipment and the salesman also had someone else look at the pics...The D50 pics were very light and vivid and the D80 was more on the grey tones. Its almost like a film needed to be lifted off the pic to make it look better. The same lenses and same exact settings were used also. I would really like to step into the D80 but worried I might not get the expsure of my D50 on pics

  

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vallhall Registered since 11th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 11:51 PM
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#115. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 113



          

This is from "Camera labs"

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/NikonD80/page4.shtml

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 12:28 AM
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#116. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 115


Garland, US
          

Interesting photo, thanks for posting. I'm a Nikonian, always have and always will be, but the Canon picture looks *much* better to me. While the Canon picture does appear to be slightly underexposed, the Nikon picture just looks washed out. I mean, which one would you rather hang on a wall?

On a side note, that photo really brings a smile to my face - I bungy jumped from that vantage point nearly 6 years ago. Its called the Ledge and its in Queenstown, New Zealand for those that didn't know.

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 12:56 AM
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#117. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 116


NZ
          

Hi,

Yes being a Kiwi (and a Brit!) I was stunned to see Queenstown as an example in web camera review.

Interestingly, my first impression was also that as they stand the D80 photo was 'washed out'. I was then surprised to read the opinion that the D80 photo was closer to technically correct.

There is still colour in the sky so maybe with post processing the D80 gives more scope to achieve a better print to hang. The Canon shot is better for a print straight out of the camera.

Cheers
Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 05:24 AM
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#120. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 116


Paignton, GB
          

>Interesting photo, thanks for posting. I'm a Nikonian,
>always have and always will be, but the Canon picture looks
>*much* better to me.

Maybe that helps to explain why some people here are being so vociferous about this "D80 Overexposure". If that website's view is accurate (and I've no reason to doubt them) you, and presumably others in this thread, have a preference for images which are technically under-exposed. Nothing wrong with that, but it looks like the D80 may not be the camera to give it to you. Maybe a D70s...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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tempoct Registered since 14th Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 02:31 AM
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#118. "Should have found this post"
In response to Reply # 0


Glendale, US
          

Before I ordered mine! I also upgraded from D70 and found that D80 "Matrix II" is overexposing most of the time. Does anyone know how D200 Matrix behave? Seems to be Matrix II too but I've never heard any complaint about it.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 05:26 AM
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#121. "RE: Should have found this post"
In response to Reply # 118


Paignton, GB
          

>Seems to be Matrix II too but I've never heard any complaint about it.

Yes, it is, and neither have I. The metering algorithms could be different, and it has a 1005-pixel metering sensor rather than the D80's 420-pixel.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Ian Barrett Registered since 29th Sep 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:59 AM
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#125. "RE: Should have found this post"
In response to Reply # 118


GB
          

>Before I ordered mine! I also upgraded from D70 and found
>that D80 "Matrix II" is overexposing most of the time. Does
>anyone know how D200 Matrix behave? Seems to be Matrix II
>too but I've never heard any complaint about it.

I been a happy user of a D70s since Christmas. When the D80 was announced it didn't interest me at all. However I made the mistake of holding one my local dealer had and I was hooked on the LCD, the viewfinder and the handling.

Over the first weekend I really enjoyed using the D80 and took some stunning shots. I enjoyed it so much it went everywhere with me. I was taking photos of anything and everything. Then I started noticing the weakness in the Matrix II metering. It could be totally unpredictable. I could stand in the High Street and photo a red car as it went past. Excellent exposure. A black car went past - the shot (same framing) was so overexposed that the car had turned grey and the background was totally fogged. How was I ever going to take motor racing shots with this?

I entered a two week period where I took my D70s and my D80 everywhere and took hundreds of comparison shots. Every D70s shot came out well and I couldn't even force it to do some of the dumb stuff the D80 would do at times.

Very reluctantly I returned the camera to my dealer for a refund and told him my problems. "Yes I've noticed that too" he said.

By the way - three UK magazines have now picked up on the D80's propensity to blow out highlights. Two marked the camera's performance down for it but the third still gave it 5 stars.

Anyway for the last week I have been using a D200 and re-shooting many of the test shots I took with the D80.

The D200 matrix metering has shown no such problem. At the moment I haven't been able to tweak it take the vibrant sharp images that the D80 gives straight out of the box but I am impressed that the images look like photographs rather than digital images, if that makes sense.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 06:15 AM
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#122. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, GB
          

Before this Part 2 thread gets locked (and a part 3 started...?), here are a couple of suggestions for anyone who wonders if their D80 is exposing "correctly" or not...

1. Check the histogram. This is the only way to judge how appropriate the metered exposure was. Looking at the actual image on your camera LCD or PC monitor is too dependent on how they are adjusted. Which leads to...

2. Check your PC monitor settings. Full monitor calibration is a good idea, but as a minimum, check the brightness and contrast settings.

3. Check your Shooting Menu. The metering is not the only D80 feature which affects how the image looks. If you're using "AUTO" mode or one of the scene setting modes, then the camera is also choosing the image optimisation settings for you. Consider looking into the Shooting Menu, and trying different settings under Optimise Image for yourself, particularly Tone Compensation which according to the manual (page 80), can "prevent loss of detail in highlights under harsh conditions or in bright sunlight". Sound familiar...?

I hope this helps. It is posted in the spirit of support that predominates here at Nikonians. It must be frustrating when an expensive new camera does not measure up in some way. Sometimes the individual camera is faulty, in which case, your dealer should exchange it or Nikon will fix it. Sometimes, though, it's just that it does not work quite the way we are used to or expect, in which case Nikonians is here to assist. Of course, we can do more when people keep calm and listen to advice rather than just ranting...

Thanks!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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tempoct Registered since 14th Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:30 AM
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#123. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 122


Glendale, US
          

Thanks Brian.
I've checked the histogram on every shot I took today (BTW, really like how D80 shows separated and combined histogram for RGB). It is close or blown highlight in most shots. I've used P and A mode mainly.
It also seems to "expose to the right" but a bit too much right!
Some suggests using center-weight and get more consistent (well exposed) results. I've tried a few this evening. Look promising and will try outdoor tomorrow. I expanded the center-weight to 10mm.
Do you (or anyone) have D200 and D80? Can someone try to test how the meter behaviour of two cams? I have D70 and D80 meter is about 0.7 or more hotter than D70. However, some midtone scenes both camera meters read similarly.




  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:19 AM
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#126. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 123



          

Hi there,

For those you have time, you can try those curves for the D80 :

I edit, cause it direct link does not work :

You'll find the D80' curves at the end of the page "Telechargement courbe D80" :

http://www.chez.com/rominfo/telechargement%20courbe%20d200.html


There are two curves in the zip file, and a doc file which is basically saying (that's in french) :

- That the D80 naturally, slightly, Overexpose.
- That with The BRD80e curve, the D80 must be set at -0.5.
- That with the BRD80f curve, the D80 must be set at -0.7. This one will be more efficient, but will also generate more noise.

Those two curves has to be used in hight light / high contrast conditions.
In low light condition, we will need to reload normal mode.


Here is some pictures of the result with the BRD80e curve :

http://www.pixelistes.com/forum/le-d80-surexpose-t-il-vt8788-75.html


Credit to Bernard Rome for the curves
Credit to "Blaise" who took the pictures

  

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k5mitch Registered since 29th Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 03:33 PM
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#135. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 126


Portland, US
          

>Hi there,
>
>For those you have time, you can try those curves for the
>D80
>Those two curves has to be used in hight light / high
>contrast conditions.
>In low light condition, we will need to reload normal mode.

I know nothing about custom curves but once you load this into the camera what do you set your camera too.
Auto or ?


Nikon D200
Nikkor 16-85 VR
Sigma 10-20mm
Nikkor 70-300 VR
Nikkor 50mm 1.8
SB600

  

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golf1025 Registered since 01st Nov 2005Fri 13-Oct-06 10:45 AM
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#127. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 122


Amsterdam, NL
          

Brian,
Could you please comment on additional samples I've posted on
golf1025.smugmug.com/gallery/1985348
I still think that
a) shooting in Auto blows out far too much,
b) a very tiny shift in cameraposition has a great effect on exposure, suggesting that 3D is more of a C/CW mode metering than "Matrix"
Jan

Jan (Amsterdam, NL)
D300 / Nikkor 35mm f2.0D / 50mm f/1.4 / 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 VRII / Nikon 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5D / Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D /SB-600 / Ricoh GR Digital / Tamron AF 17-50 f/2.8 / Sigma 10-20mm Kiron 105mm f/2.8 Lester Dine / Tripod: Benro C-227 w. KS-1 / Sekonic L-308s /Printer: HP B9180

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 12:31 PM
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#131. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 127


Paignton, GB
          

Hi, Jan. That's an interesting set of shots. They seem consistent with those posted previously, where the subject has a large range of tones, and the Matrix exposures have favoured preserving the shadow areas. In general, to my eye the matrix shots are a little overexposed, and the CW shots are a little underexposed. The camera movement has a far greater effect in Spot metering, which is what you'd expect.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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golf1025 Registered since 01st Nov 2005Fri 13-Oct-06 01:34 PM
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#133. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 131


Amsterdam, NL
          

Thanks Brian,
Would you offer any views as to why -in my view- a minimal shift in camerapostion would have such a big impact on the amount of blown highlights? I.e. would you agree that Matrix does in fact tend more to a CW type metering?
Jan

Jan (Amsterdam, NL)
D300 / Nikkor 35mm f2.0D / 50mm f/1.4 / 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 VRII / Nikon 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5D / Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D /SB-600 / Ricoh GR Digital / Tamron AF 17-50 f/2.8 / Sigma 10-20mm Kiron 105mm f/2.8 Lester Dine / Tripod: Benro C-227 w. KS-1 / Sekonic L-308s /Printer: HP B9180

  

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rkwoo Registered since 21st Sep 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:50 AM
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#128. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


HK
          

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lowering the saturation from normal to moderate. I am doing some experiments with it, and not only are the shots coming out less bright, they also have slightly less clipping too. Gone are the very bright green lawns that you guys don't seem to like.

One of my experimental shots (shot with -0.7EV, post processed to add it back):

Normal (clipping ~1.3%)
http://images4.fotop.net/albums3/rkwoo/retouch/DSC_1855_hi.jpg

Moderate (clipping reduced by 9% to ~1.2%)
http://images4.fotop.net/albums3/rkwoo/retouch/DSC_1855_lo.jpg

If I am to pick one shot which best or most accurately represents what the place/lighting condition was like, I would definitely choose the "moderate" picture.

  

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vallhall Registered since 11th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 11:12 AM
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#129. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 128



          


I hope someone could translate from Scandinavian to English here?, as my English is abit limited



"På Electroworld-messen i går pratet jeg med flere representanter for Nikon, som var helt klare på at lysmålingen i D50, D80 og D200 er helt identisk.

3D Matrix II vektlegger lysmåling i fokuspunktet (eller den valgte gruppen av fokuspunkter), men tar hensyn til høylys i hele bildet, og forsøker å ungå utbrenning, men som Brainware ganske riktig påpeker gjøres så valget av eksponering basert på motivdatabasen i kameraet.

Mao. er det sammenligning mellom D80, D50 og D200 som er interessant. Ikke D70."





  

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vallhall Registered since 11th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 11:31 AM
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#130. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0



          

Do we have someone in here who could test the D50 or D200 side by side with D80?

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 12:33 PM
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#132. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 130


Paignton, GB
          

>Do we have someone in here who could test the D50 or D200
>side by side with D80?

That would be interesting. Not me, though - I only have a D200. Anyone...?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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drlunanerd Registered since 04th Sep 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 02:40 PM
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#134. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 132


GB
          

Hello everyone, newbie here!

I've discovered this forum after searching the Web for "D80 overexposure". I did this as I was disappointed with a series of recent shots I took, and wondered if there was a known problem with the camera. I had not read anything about overexposure or Matrix metering issues previously - I came here purely as a result of my own experience. I've read through the whole thread now

I've upgraded from a D50, and using the Matrix metering with that camera in very similar lighting conditions (same location and same subject) my shots were far more to my liking, with little to none of the blown highlights that I've had with the D80. This isn't to say the D50 never "overexposed" either, but I'm comparing the same situation between cameras.

I was hoping someone more experienced could explain an observation I've made. I've been testing the different metering modes on my D80 to learn more about how it exposes scenes.

What has baffled me is that if I centre on a dark object, with bright sunlight around it (coming from in front of the object, through a window outside of the scene), the Centre Weighted mode reduces the exposure compared to the Matrix mode. I was expecting the opposite: that Centre Weighted would want to increase exposure for the dark object, possibly then blowing the sunlit areas. However, this is exactly what Matrix is doing!

If I then switch to Spot metering in this lighting situation, the exposure is the same or only slightly more than Matrix was giving. I did not expect this result - it seems back to front to me.

  

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peedy Registered since 09th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 04:06 PM
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#136. "D50 vs the D80"
In response to Reply # 134



          

I posted earlier in this thread with the D50 at local camera shop I thought the D80 underexposed the shot slightly while inside the shop...I have been looking into the D80 so going to rent it this weekend and do some side by side comaparisons with my D50....I prefer the way my D50 looks than the D70s. Infact I had my D70s for 1 week and everyone stated why does your photos look so grey...I went and tested the d70s and D50 at local store with the manager helping and he stated that the D50 pics looked better...We will have to see the results of the d80 and see

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 04:17 PM
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#137. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 134


PL
          

I have similar observations: yesterday I made some tests comparing different exposure meters on uniformly lit carpet: to my surprise matrix mode gives much more exposed results!!. I would expect that all modes should give more less identical results when photo is taken of uniform surface. One hint differing this from previously already described experiments with 18% gray card is that my carpet is dark-yellow. Maybe Matrix tries to be smart as it interprets some colors and not grayscale only?

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 04:27 AM
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#156. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 134


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

drlunanerd: You figured it out. That's the same exact results I found. One of my most disappointing days was the 1st day I shot a show in Matrix mode, and 90% of the shots were bad.

Then, one of the happier days that followed whas when I found out how to shut off the Matrix mode, and discovered the CW mode produced far better exposed shots. I was able to get GREAT shots again.

It is ironic that the modes seem to be backwards, and the Matrix mode is most like the "spot" mode.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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herbs Registered since 13th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:05 PM
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#138. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 132


Prince George, CA
          

heres some sample photos from phil askey at dpreview. The d200 reads the scene 2 stops differently than the D80. Both shots at iso 3200, both shots with same lens.

D200 1/40 sec f3.2 0 e.v.
http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond200_samples/dsd_0242.jpg

D80 1/15 sec f 4.0 -0.7 e.v.
http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond80_samples/dsc_1283.jpg

  

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klrbee25 Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:21 PM
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#139. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 138


Naples, US
          

The D80 photo is shot into the ambient light source while the D200 avoids this direct lighting. I don't see how the two images are comparable...

-Alex Rosen
www.flickr.com/photos/klrbee25/

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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herbs Registered since 13th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:59 PM
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#142. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 139


Prince George, CA
          

to be glib- yeah the two images are not comparable, the d200 is exposed properly, the d80 is not(even with -0.7 e.v.)

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 07:22 PM
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#140. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 138


Garland, US
          

they really aren't taken from the same vantage point, so I don't think its fair to compare the two. It appears that the D80 picture has a very bright window in its background (upper right) where the D200 does not...

  

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herbs Registered since 13th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 08:23 PM
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#143. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 140


Prince George, CA
          

Then take a look at these two. Same thing-D80 overexposes by 2 stops compared to D200
Nikon D80 Review Samples (36 of 40), 33 mm equiv, ISO 3200, 1/50 sec, F4.0, +0.0 EV, 17-55 mm F2.8G DX
http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond80_samples/dsc_1295.jpg

Nikon D200 Review Samples (34 of 38), 33 mm equiv, ISO 800, 1/40 sec, F3.2, +0.0 EV, 17-55 mm DX
http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond200_samples/dsd_0250.jpg

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 08:47 PM
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#144. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 143


Garland, US
          

now that is more convincing.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 13-Oct-06 08:52 PM
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#145. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 143


Paignton, GB
          

In those images, as with others we have seen, the D80 preserves more shadow detail at the expense of highlights. To be fair, I presume the shots were taken at different times, as part of the actual tests of each camera. If so, the lighting conditions may be different so the actual EV readings would not be directly comparable. The boat does not look two whole stops darker in the D200 image.

Ignoring the exposure difference, does anyone else think that's a pretty good image from the D80 at 3200 ISO?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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golf1025 Registered since 01st Nov 2005Fri 13-Oct-06 09:20 PM
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#146. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 145


Amsterdam, NL
          

As far as noise is concerned, I think it's a pretty good picture at 3200 ISO. But I still wouldn't hang it on the wall for all the blown highlights. Unfortunatly no mention is made of the exposure mode. Was it Auto/3D or AP/CW or AP/C?
As far as I am concerned the problem is whether 3D matrix metering is faulty in such that it's no better than any of the other metering modes and worse for the amateur who expects to get properly exposed pictures setting the prgram wheel to green Auto.
Jan

Jan (Amsterdam, NL)
D300 / Nikkor 35mm f2.0D / 50mm f/1.4 / 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 VRII / Nikon 28-70mm f/3.5-4.5D / Nikon 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5D /SB-600 / Ricoh GR Digital / Tamron AF 17-50 f/2.8 / Sigma 10-20mm Kiron 105mm f/2.8 Lester Dine / Tripod: Benro C-227 w. KS-1 / Sekonic L-308s /Printer: HP B9180

  

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herbs Registered since 13th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:22 PM
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#147. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 146


Prince George, CA
          

from the exif notes off the original :
D200 -multi-segment exposure
D80 -auto-exposure

  

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peedy Registered since 09th Oct 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:43 PM
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#148. "D80 vs the D50 on exposure today"
In response to Reply # 147



          

I rented a d80 today and having been playing with it non stop....Im at work at the moment so not able to upload pics to the web but will tonight...I curretnly own the D50 and want to purchase the D80 so I thought would test them out...
When getting to work I got some pics of both cameras on top of a parking garage...
I put the D50 on the exact same settings using the exact same lens...After taking several shots with both I compared on my laptop...My findings were that the D80 and D50 are almost identical in exposure....There were several on the same shots that had overexposed on both cameras....
I played with a D70s last year prior to buying a D50 and really like the exposure of the D50 thinking the D70 was too underexposed...I do think the D80 is overexposing but also think the D70 group is used to the Underexposure of the D70. Im not sure if Im going to keep it or get something else like a D200 or just keep D50 until next year...There is always something else coming out in the future..

  

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tempoct Registered since 14th Aug 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:49 PM
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#150. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 147


Glendale, US
          

I open both in NX, both are using Matrix II. Here's EXIF:
D200 : Program Auto (P mode)
D80 : Aperture Priority (A mode)

Both use "Multi-Pattern" metering which is Matrix II.

>from the exif notes off the original :
>D200 -multi-segment exposure
>D80 -auto-exposure

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Fri 13-Oct-06 10:44 PM
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#149. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 146


Lowden, US
          

If you go to DP Review you can see all of the sample images from the D80 & D200 and download the original file with shooting info embedded. The shots were both taken in matrix mode and at different times the D200 in February at 11:25am and the D80 in September at 11:16am.

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond80_samples/

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/nikond200_samples/

These photos came from Phil Askey who wrote the D80 review at DP review. Even with after taking these shot he gave the D80 a glowing review and never mentions inconsistent matrix metering or even a tendency for over exposure.

I think the photos were both taken as examples for hi ISO noise so he may have been trying to expose for the shadows and didn’t care about the highlights. Same for the pictures of the truck.

From all the example shots though it does look like the D200 handles difficult lighting better than the D80.

Dave

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
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peedy Registered since 09th Oct 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 12:38 AM
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#151. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 149



          

I just got finished looking at the above D200 and D80 pics from the links....I think the boat pic is about the only overexposed pic that I see there from the D80...Infact I think the D200 is a little to dark in some respects....All the other pics with the D80 look to be exposed right to me...
However, I own a D50 and I have been playing with this rental d80 for several hours now and continue to think it exposes just like my D50 does...I could be wrong on this but it seems like alot of users of the new D80 have upgraded from their d70 or d70's and are not used to seeing the type of exposure that the D50 or the D80 has been putting out....After comparing many of my old and new shots with my D80 shots today they are very very similiar with the D80 being sharper and same exposure

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 01:00 AM
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#152. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 151


Lowden, US
          

Peedy,

I agree on the comparison to the D50. I had one before I got the D80 and getting good shots with the D80 is no harder then it was with the D50. If you like the D50 you will love the D80!

I like all of the shots from both cameras from the above samples. There are just a some that the D80 has blown out background highlights and the D200 seems to have less of that then the D80.

Dave

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 01:06 AM
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#153. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 145


Lowden, US
          

Yes I do and I think that was probably the whole point of that shot. The photographer is a pro and if that was just a metering malfunction I do not think he would have let get by him without mentioning it in his review.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 01:53 AM
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#154. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 130


JP
          

>Do we have someone in here who could test the D50 or D200
>side by side with D80?

I had posted this in part 1 of this thread.
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/1982907

It should be noted that the exposures for 6 of the 7 test shots I took with the D80 and D50 were within +/- 0.3 EV of each other.

Only a few people have posted comparisons of the D80 matrix metering to other camera's matrix metering for the same composition and focal length. It would be good if more people would post these types of comparisons.

  

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tempoct Registered since 14th Aug 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 07:59 AM
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#158. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 154


Glendale, US
          

Thanks Mike. If you could do some further comparison between D80 and D50, it would be great. All other factors should be neutralized (wb, tone, sharpness, etc, don't use Auto, use Normal).


>>Do we have someone in here who could test the D50 or D200
>>side by side with D80?
>
>I had posted this in part 1 of this thread.
>http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/1982907
>
>It should be noted that the exposures for 6 of the 7 test
>shots I took with the D80 and D50 were within +/- 0.3 EV of
>each other.
>
>Only a few people have posted comparisons of the D80 matrix
>metering to other camera's matrix metering for the same
>composition and focal length. It would be good if more
>people would post these types of comparisons.

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 10:08 AM
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#159. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 158


JP
          

I'd be happy to do some more comparisons. I'll be sure to use aperature priority this time (instead of program) so the exposures will be easier to compare. I'll also try to put other settings to "normal", especially saturation and contrast. Hopefully I'll be able to get to it this weekend.

Mike

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 02:32 AM
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#155. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


JP
          

if you are interested.

My intention is to separate the disucssion of the D80 matrix tendencies from the discussion of proper exposure. The readership of this forum is too limited for a proper disussion of the latter. Also, I think there is too much emotion in this thread about the D80 matrix to have an unbiased discussion about proper exposure.

Mike

  

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georgeal Registered since 08th Jan 2005Sat 14-Oct-06 01:29 PM
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#160. "A Thought - and a Possible Test"
In response to Reply # 0


Brampton, CA
          

I posted the below on DPReview:

I’ve been reading these overexposure threads with interest. To give you a bit of background – I’m a D70 owner and I’ve always though it underexposed. Using tone curves and/or routinely dialing in +EV has long been a way of life. I guess things change ;~)

A point that someone (Barry Fitzgerald?) brought up about selecting the _right_ AF point immediately struck me as important. If I remember correctly, matrix metering biases its exposure based on the subject under the selected AF point. This is why techniques like focus-recompose can be tricky and need AE-Lock.

Important Points:
---------------------

1) D80 has 11 AF points instead of the D50’s 5
2) Each D80 AF point evaluates a _smaller_ section of the scene
3) I suspect the D80’s metering module + decision making is the same as the D50’s

Suspicion:
-------------

In single area AF mode, the D50’s selected AF point can evaluate a larger portion of the subject/scene, giving the metering system a wider range of “subject” light values for the matrix meter to work with. On the other hand each AF point on the D80 is much smaller, meaning that the evaluated light sample is smaller and the algorithm is probably _much_ more sensitive to what’s directly underneath it.

In that sense it’s acting ‘almost’ like a spot meter – but not quite

Interesting Test for D80 Owners:
----------------------------------------

I don’t have a D80, but I’d be very interested in hearing people’s results with the following.

1) Select single-area AF mode and select your center AF point
2) Find a challenging scene that creates overexposure with the matrix meter and that your D50 exposed ‘better’. Take a picture.
3) Go to CSM menu option 3 and change the center AF point to wide zone
4) Try to take the same picture as (2) under the same lighting conditions

Do the results change? For the better?

I’d _REALLY_ appreciate someone trying this out and would be very interested to hear your results.

Thanks!
Allen

--
Photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/allengeorge/
Terminal Musings: http://www.allengeorge.com

  

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drlunanerd Registered since 04th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 03:22 PM
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#161. "RE: A Thought - and a Possible Test"
In response to Reply # 160


GB
          

georgeal: I was about to reply to your duplicate post on dpreview, but I'll do it here instead:

I've tried your suggestion on my D80 and it makes no difference to exposure under Matrix metering. I didn't expect it to either, as this would not explain why there's a difference between the D200 and D80 Matrix metering when they both have 11 AF points. I do agree from my own observations that Matrix on the D80 is behaving more like a Spot meter.

I have to say after lots of my own testing and real-world shooting I'm disappointed with my D80. I loved it initially for it's handling and other features. But I'm finding Matrix to be so unreliable it's unusable IMO.

I find that Centre Weighted gives more accurate exposures across the board. This is fine, but if I want to use the camera in fully Auto mode (say when my partner is using it) it has to use Matrix, and that's where the D80 falls down.

As I'm within my return period I think I'm going to get a refund on the D80 and wait and see what happens. It's a shame but I'm not getting the results I like out of this camera, and that's what's important. Others may like it, and/or have more skill to be able to compensate for it, but I don't.

Still, I'm learning a lot from using it and this forum, so please keep commenting!

  

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georgeal Registered since 08th Jan 2005Sat 14-Oct-06 03:36 PM
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#162. "That's Unfortunate :("
In response to Reply # 161


Brampton, CA
          

I'm sorry to hear that neither my suggestion nor the D80 worked out for you.

To be frank I don't know whether it's a design 'problem'. Is it possible that it's a hardware issue that's affecting some people? Again, I don't know... It's sad because I've seen some absolutely amazing photos out of the D80 in challenging lighting - exposures that were better than my D70.

That said, you're right in saying that the output's what's important. If the D80 doesn't really work for you - you have to let it go.

BTW, the D200 uses a different metering module. It may have 11 AF points but the algorithm and metering used are different.

Thanks for replying!

--
Photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/allengeorge/
Terminal Musings: http://www.allengeorge.com

  

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drlunanerd Registered since 04th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 03:48 PM
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#163. "RE: That's Unfortunate :("
In response to Reply # 162


GB
          

>I'm sorry to hear that neither my suggestion nor the D80
>worked out for you.
>
>To be frank I don't know whether it's a design 'problem'.
>Is it possible that it's a hardware issue that's affecting
>some people? Again, I don't know... It's sad because I've
>seen some absolutely amazing photos out of the D80 in
>challenging lighting - exposures that were better than my
>D70.

Yes, that's the big question - what really is going on here?
I've taken some nice shots with the D80, but too many have been ruined by Matrix for no good reason I can see.

>
>BTW, the D200 uses a different metering module. It may have
>11 AF points but the algorithm and metering used are
>different.

Exactly, which is why I don't think it has anything to do with AF. I think it's simply Nikon twiddling with the algorithms in Matrix II and getting it wrong

There's still time for the D80 to redeem itself to me though. Whether that takes a firmware upgrade or something else I don't know. What I do think is that I shouldn't have to pay nearly twice as much for a D200 to get a usable Matrix function!

Roll on the D60 soon?

  

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georgeal Registered since 08th Jan 2005Sat 14-Oct-06 04:03 PM
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#164. "RE: That's Unfortunate :("
In response to Reply # 163


Brampton, CA
          

Oh - my hypothesis was that the _AF Point_ not the AF module was affecting the metering. Namely the size of the AF point itself.

The reason I thought of this was because this problem struck me as following the same 'schema' as the Ariane 5 rocket disaster. Odd? Yeah - but there too engineers took a known part (aka. D50 metering module + algorithm) and moved to to a 'better' system, but forgot about how it would interact with that system (aka. each AF point around which the matrix metering module would bias its metering would be _smaller_). The results are (were) unpredictable.

Anyways, that was simply a hypothesis

--
Photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/allengeorge/
Terminal Musings: http://www.allengeorge.com

  

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drlunanerd Registered since 04th Sep 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 04:45 PM
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#165. "RE: That's Unfortunate :("
In response to Reply # 164


GB
          

Great analogy, I understand what you're getting at. It's interesting to speculate on how the AF and metering are interacting.

I can't imagine Nikon engineers getting this wrong though - combining the D50 meter with the D200 AF module and not testing it. As some others have suggested, the D80's performance is subjective and Nikon have designed it that way (possibly in response to criticism of the D70's metering). I for one don't like it unfortunately.

Anyone want to swap a D80 for a D70s

  

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georgeal Registered since 08th Jan 2005Sat 14-Oct-06 04:47 PM
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#166. "RE: That's Unfortunate :("
In response to Reply # 165


Brampton, CA
          

Would you take a D70?

'Cause I'd take you up on that trade

--
Photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/allengeorge/
Terminal Musings: http://www.allengeorge.com

  

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tempoct Registered since 14th Aug 2006Sat 14-Oct-06 08:14 PM
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#167. "Allen, I think you have cracked the code!"
In response to Reply # 160


Glendale, US
          

I posted my result in DPreview. It is exactly what Allen suggested. For those who are interested, see here.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=20460680

>I posted the below on DPReview:
>
>I’ve been reading these overexposure threads with interest.
>To give you a bit of background – I’m a D70 owner and I’ve
>always though it underexposed. Using tone curves and/or
>routinely dialing in +EV has long been a way of life. I
>guess things change ;~)
>
>A point that someone (Barry Fitzgerald?) brought up about
>selecting the _right_ AF point immediately struck me as
>important. If I remember correctly, matrix metering biases
>its exposure based on the subject under the selected AF
>point. This is why techniques like focus-recompose can be
>tricky and need AE-Lock.
>
>Important Points:
>---------------------
>
>1) D80 has 11 AF points instead of the D50’s 5
>2) Each D80 AF point evaluates a _smaller_ section of the
>scene
>3) I suspect the D80’s metering module + decision making is
>the same as the D50’s
>
>Suspicion:
>-------------
>
>In single area AF mode, the D50’s selected AF point can
>evaluate a larger portion of the subject/scene, giving the
>metering system a wider range of “subject” light values for
>the matrix meter to work with. On the other hand each AF
>point on the D80 is much smaller, meaning that the evaluated
>light sample is smaller and the algorithm is probably _much_
>more sensitive to what’s directly underneath it.
>
>In that sense it’s acting ‘almost’ like a spot meter – but
>not quite
>
>Interesting Test for D80 Owners:
>----------------------------------------
>
>I don’t have a D80, but I’d be very interested in hearing
>people’s results with the following.
>
>1) Select single-area AF mode and select your center AF
>point
>2) Find a challenging scene that creates overexposure with
>the matrix meter and that your D50 exposed ‘better’. Take a
>picture.
>3) Go to CSM menu option 3 and change the center AF point to
>wide zone
>4) Try to take the same picture as (2) under the same
>lighting conditions
>
>Do the results change? For the better?
>
>I’d _REALLY_ appreciate someone trying this out and would be
>very interested to hear your results.
>
>Thanks!
>Allen

  

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gbogros Registered since 10th Oct 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 01:50 PM
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#174. "RE: Allen, I think you have cracked the code!"
In response to Reply # 167



          

Don't you think there can be an inversion : Matrix is Center, and Center is Matrix ?

After another WE of test, my D80 will go at Nikon' support.
I can't take a picture with Matrix mode.

  

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michael_tn Registered since 23rd Mar 2006Sun 15-Oct-06 02:06 PM
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#175. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

can we break this thread into a new one? i find it really difficult to
follow (and at times download) 170+ messages in a give thread.

-- michael

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 15-Oct-06 02:24 PM
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#176. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 175


Paignton, GB
          

>can we break this thread into a new one? i find it really
>difficult to follow (and at times download) 170+ messages
>in a given thread.

Yes - good point. We normally try to keep threads manageable, but this one has grown very quickly and seemed to contain several ongoing exchanges. It is too long now, though, so it will be closed.

Thanks, everyone. Here's a link to Part 3, for those with the necessary stamina

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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skorj Registered since 19th Aug 2003Wed 16-Jan-08 01:11 PM
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"RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"


Fort Erie, CA
          

Here are some comparison shots between the D80 and D70s. All shots were taken with a 50mm f/1.4 AF-D in aperture priority at f/4.0 using matrix metering. Both cameras were set to 400 iso. The idea here was to include a dark, light and midtoned object and re-arrange between shots so that a different object was in the centre each time shot. The shutter speed for the D80 shot with the dark object in the centre was 1/2.5, all other shots were at 1/4. I included a histogram to go with each shot.

Though I included both light and dark objects, the overcast daylight coming through our sliding glass doors hardly make for a high contrast scene. The only difference in how the two cameras reacted is that the D80 gave slightly more exposure when the dark subject was in the centre. It has been suggested elsewhere in this thread that this is a situation in which the D80 might overexpose, and perhaps in a trickier lighting situation it might have. In this situation, however, I don't think there is anything to complain about.

For my part, the only conclusion this test leads me to is that both cameras performed properly in this fairly ordinary situation. This is good news on the one hand, but it does suggest any problems with overexposure can't be solved simply by keeping EV -0.7 permanently dialed in. In this case it would have lead to underexposure.

As a final note, while this test did not reveal any overexposure problems with the D80 (or underexposure with the D70s) I don't mean to suggest in any way that this isn't an issue. I have been using the camera for weeks now and I have experienced problems with overexposure myself which has, on occasions, rendered shots unusable. I have also had the D80 handle some tricky situations brilliantly. It's not my intention to either complain about or to praise the D80, but rather to understand it's tendancies so that I can get the best and most consistant results possible. Hopefully the results of this test can help in gaining such an understanding. I plan to test the two cameras in more demanding situations in the future.

-Joe Iannandrea

www.evermorephotography.com

PS- As a technical note, while I intended to shoot everything in jpeg basic, the D80 was accidentally left in Raw mode. For this comparison I extracted the embedded jpeg from the NEF files.)

-Joe Iannandrea

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)
Attachment #5, (jpg file)
Attachment #6, (jpg file)

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 04:33 PM
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#27. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Garland, US
          

here are my examples of the D80 matrix II metering vs. D70 matrix metering:

I set both cameras to ISO 200, cloudy WB (as it was overcast here yesterday), "normal" image processing, and shot in JPEG, BASIC, SMALL as requested by Nikon USA support. I set both cameras to aperture priority f/5.6. I used the 18-200VR on my D80 and the 18-70 on my D70. The pictures are straight out of the camera, no PP at all, not even resizing.

I think the photos speak for themselves, but I'm curious what everyone else has to say (as well as Nikon USA support - I emailed them the exact same set of 30 photos this morning).

-Stewart

http://www.flickr.com/photos/x2stew/sets/72157594323314250/

(FYI, the EXIF data is viewable if you click on "More properties" when viewing single photos on flickr).

  

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kniveswood Registered since 24th May 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 05:19 PM
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#31. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 27



          

Honestly, each and every D80 shot looks better to me. Yes, the skies are blown, but the main subjects are really well-exposed. Is it really wrong if the camera cleverly exposes your main subject correctly?

It's either to overexpose or to underexpose. In a high contrast scene, you simply can't have both. Nikon probably chosen the former, because the pictures shown just proven that it looks better without PP'ing.

  

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mchwala Registered since 28th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 05:49 PM
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#32. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 31


PL
          

Well, to achieve good exposure of main subject it is enough to use spot. I would expect "matrix" to take care for all parts of the composition, not only what is in the focus centre. Pictures taken by D70 can easily be fixed (even without that I can see everything in the shadows), but blown highlight are lost for good.

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 06:13 PM
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#41. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 32


Garland, US
          

I agree, matrix II should expose for the whole scene because if I wanted to expose for the center I would choose center weighted! I just can't understand why some are defending the matrix II when it clearly does not do what the manual states. let me quote:

3D Color Matrix II: Recommended in most situations. Camera meters a wide area of the frame and sets exposure according to distribution of brightness, color, distance, and composition for natural results.

To me, there is nothing natural about the D80 matrix II metered shots. Every single one of them is brighter than the scene actually was. If you look at the histograms of my D80 shots, you will see the blown highlights in almost every channel of every shot.

The comparison between DSC_0544 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/x2stew/267067846/) & DSC_3789 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/x2stew/267067849/) is the most obvious example of overexposure to me.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:30 PM
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#42. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 41


Paignton, GB
          

>I just can't understand why some are defending
>the matrix II when it clearly does not do what the manual
>states.

It's not that some are "defending" the camera - we don't have an axe to grind either way, we're just commenting on the examples posted in this thread.

>The comparison between DSC_0544 & DSC_3789 is the most
>obvious example of overexposure to me.

Now that is a clearer example, and IMO is the sort of comparison that Nikon might be able to do something with. Thank you for posting it. From the EXIF data, the D80 gave 1 stop more exposure than the D70 in the same conditions. Of course, as already pointed out many people complained that the default exposure from the D70 was too dark, but in this example I'd say that the optimum exposure is maybe half-way between the two.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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pointwood Registered since 15th Sep 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 12:00 AM
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#60. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 42


Aarhus, DK
          

In that comparison I clearly prefer the D70 shot. The D80 is so bright it almost hurts my eyes :p

Now, since I have just bought a D80 (and it is my first SLR camera ever), I'm reading following this thread closely and I must say that I've already learnt quite a bit from reading it - this is a great place!

I was out taking pictures with my camera the other day and I got a lot of similar overexposed shots as has been posted here (I'm not going to post any examples - it would be too embarrassing ). I would probably have gotten a lot of much better shot if I had read this thread before, but being a newbie I'll continue to make lots of mistakes. But as long as I learn from it, it's not all bad

--
Jabber ID:
jramskov@jabber.shd.dk

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 12:12 AM
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#62. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 60


Garland, US
          

pointwood, don't be too embarassed to share your photos. I, for one, would love to see more examples from other users where the matrix II metering fails to expose properly. The ones I posted are certainly nothing special. I took them with the sole intention of just firing off as many shots after work as I could before the light faded last night.

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:59 PM
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#51. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 41


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

x2stew: You actually get it. It has been determined that the novice will see a brighter overexposed shot as more appealing.

But a blown out shot is not recoverable. If any part of it is blown, it is gone!

I too thought the D70's shots were dark, but come to find out they were just exposed as to not overexpose the brightest portion of the shot.

I suspect there are some here who don't understand what the purpose of "spot metering" is, and what Matrix is supposed to do.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 09:02 PM
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#52. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 51


Paignton, GB
          

>I suspect there are some here who don't understand... what Matrix
>is supposed to do.

Hey - we agree on something...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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x2stew Registered since 22nd Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 11:48 PM
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#59. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 52


Garland, US
          

Brian, just so we understand each other and we understand Nikon...

3D Color Matrix II: Recommended in most situations. Camera meters a wide area of the frame and sets exposure according to distribution of brightness, color, distance, and composition for natural results.

From this, I expect matrix metering to faithfully reproduce the luminance of the scene it captures without interpretation. Let the photographer interpret by dialing in +ev if they want the scene brighter or -ev if they prefer it darker. While some may argue that the D70 shots look slightly underexposed, they are actually much closer to the original brightness of the scenes than what the D80 captured, or rather, interpreted.

Out of the 15 comparison shots I posted, I doubt you can argue that I should have used center weighted metering for any of them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Stewart

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 12-Oct-06 08:12 AM
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#72. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 59


Paignton, GB
          

>Out of the 15 comparison shots I posted, I doubt you can
>argue that I should have used center weighted metering for
>any of them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No correction needed - Matrix should work well in all those conditions.

Just to be clear, in most of those examples, my view is that the D80 exposure is preferable to the D70 exposure. In a couple of them, I'd prefer somewhere in between, and I think in one case, I prefer the D70 exposure.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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jimdwright Registered since 21st Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 05:58 PM
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#35. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 27


Johnstown, US
          

Thanks for the work. The D80 shots look well exposed and I don't think anyone who uses one of the auto modes with no adjustment should have any complaints. Obvious to all of us that the D70 exposure needs adjustment.

I just went out and took a dozen or so shots in bright sunlight with sky in the background of most-facing east north and west. All had good sky and good forgrounds and mid-distance exposures too. To me they're all keepers from the auto-exposure Matrix metering standpoint. I'll try to post a link and a bit more info.

Make a great day!
Jim

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:12 PM
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#40. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 35


Paignton, GB
          

>Thanks for the work. The D80 shots look well exposed and I
>don't think anyone who uses one of the auto modes with no
>adjustment should have any complaints.

Agreed!

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Tokyo Mike Registered since 31st Aug 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 08:54 PM
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#50. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 27


JP
          

Stewart,

Thanks for posting these comparisons. For my personal tastes, the D80 seems give too much exposure and the D70 often gives too little exposure. I would prefer the results of the D70 meter if given a choice.

I can see why Nikon might think that the D80 results are acceptable. They might have received a lot of complaints from D70 users about underexposure (I as I prefer to say, "exposing for the highlights") and switched to slight overexposure (or as I prefer to say, "exposing for the shadows"). I'm sure they will get even more complaints about this.

Hopefully they will be like Goldilox and the next camera they issue will be "just right". Or better yet, they will issue a firmware update and get it right for the D80.

Mike

  

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peedy Registered since 09th Oct 2006Thu 12-Oct-06 10:43 PM
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#114. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 27



          

RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
Posted by x2stew on 11-Oct-06 at 06:33 PM
here are my examples of the D80 matrix II metering vs. D70 matrix metering:
I set both cameras to ISO 200, cloudy WB (as it was overcast here yesterday), "normal" image processing, and shot in JPEG, BASIC, SMALL as requested by Nikon USA support. I set both cameras to aperture priority f/5.6. I used the 18-200VR on my D80 and the 18-70 on my D70. The pictures are straight out of the camera, no PP at all, not even resizing.

I think the photos speak for themselves, but I'm curious what everyone else has to say (as well as Nikon USA support - I emailed them the exact same set of 30 photos this morning).

-Stewart

http://www.flickr.com/photos/x2stew/sets/72157594323314250/

(FYI, the EXIF data is viewable if you click on "More properties" when viewing single photos on flickr).

I would have to say in these pics that I like the D80 pics better than the D70...It looks like a grey film on your D70 pics.


  

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peterah Registered since 29th Oct 2005Wed 11-Oct-06 04:34 PM
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#28. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Durban, ZA
          

Great comparison Joe. And just as I would expect, the D80 performs admirably when the DR of the sensor is not exceeded. This is why Nikon will probably never admit to any sort of problem as in this situation the D80 is flawless...
Cheers
Pete
______________________________
Peter Howells
South Africa
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

Peter
http://www.peterhowells.co.za

  

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mmusicman Registered since 25th Sep 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 04:34 PM
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#29. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Ft. Lauderdale, US
          

Nice work Joe, providing samples of the glasses. You effort to vary the examples is good, but I don't think it is a high contrast shot, which is where Matrix metering seems to be "blowing" it.

--------------

D70 / D80, SB600, Nikor 18-135, Nikor 18-70, Tamron SP AF28-75 f2.8 XR Di LD, Tamron SP AF24-135 f3.5-5.6 AD, Tamron AF28-300 f3.5-6.3 XR LD...Shot film for decades... digital is the way to go!


  

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skorj Registered since 19th Aug 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 05:52 PM
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#33. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 29


Fort Erie, CA
          

>I don't think it is a high
>contrast shot, which is where Matrix metering seems to be
>"blowing" it.

Yes, I'll try a similar test in a high contrast situation in the future. Perhaps this test can serve as a sort of baseline.

-Joe Iannandrea

www.evermorephotography.com

-Joe Iannandrea

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:11 PM
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#39. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks for posting, Joe. Those are great comparison shots, and having the histogram makes them more useful

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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jimdwright Registered since 21st Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 06:48 PM
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#43. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Johnstown, US
          

http://www.flickr.com/photos/junglejhorn/

Here are a few quick shots in bright Colorado sun that I took this noon, plus one of a school bus parking lot on a cloudy day.

All Matrix metering, aperture priority, F8 or F11, ISO 200. I think they're all keepers from an exposure standpoint. No REALLY high contrast range here, but I think very typical of lots and lots of outdoor shots people take.

I'm a long-time slide film-only shooter, so limited exposure range and getting exposure right on has been a requirement. This new-fangled auto-exposure that does such a nice job is a pleasant surprise. When I see a high contrast situation, I recognize it and realize as a photographer that I need to intervene, decide what's important and expose with that in mind.

Make a great day!
Jim

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 06:54 PM
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#44. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 43


Paignton, GB
          

Thanks for posting, Jim

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 09:48 PM
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#54. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 44


NZ
          

Brian,
Please, please do not take offence here but I am intrigued by your position through all of this. You really do seem to lean heavily towards refuting examples that may indicate an undesireable behaviour (I won't call it a problem). Yet you are very happy when good behaviour is demonstrated. I'm fairly new here but am starting to wonder if there are any vested interests out there.

You have a good point that this is the main place this is under discussion. However Ken Rockwell actually says that this situation is bad if it is unpredictable (ie. a fixed exp comp won't help), he is presumably still testing.

Some of the recent post here are excellent. Thank you for yours Joe, it will be good to see the ones you promised with more with DR beyond the cameras capability. This whole issue is based around how it works when presented with that situation.
Thanks also to jmdwright, those shots are also fine examples of good behaviour. Did you have a polarizing filter on for those??

Personally I have had many shots with which I am happy but it just seems to do unexpected things to the bright side more often than I expect.

Cheers
Pete

D80, Nikkor 18-200mm DX VR, 50mm f1.8D SB800, SB26, Manfrotto 055PROB, 488RC2.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 11-Oct-06 09:58 PM
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#56. "RE: Does The D80 Overexpose--Part 2"
In response to Reply # 54


Paignton, GB
          

>Brian,
>Please, please do not take offence here

None taken

>but I am intrigued
>by your position through all of this. You really do seem to
>lean heavily towards refuting examples that may indicate an
>undesireable behaviour (I won't call it a problem). Yet you
>are very happy when good behaviour is demonstrated. I'm
>fairly new here but am starting to wonder if there are any
>vested interests out there.

Absolutely no vested interests here! I'm just in favour of good examples being shown, whatever they demonstrate. Check out my reply #43 above. Without such solid evidence, members will find (as some posting in this thread already have) that Nikon is unable to acknowledge that a problem exists at all.

>Some of the recent post here are excellent.

Yes, they are. Thanks to those members

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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petedawson Registered since 06th Jul 2006Wed 11-Oct-06 10:18 PM
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