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Subject: "Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV" Previous topic | Next topic
DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Tue 11-Sep-12 05:51 PM
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"Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"


US
          

Isn't fall/going back to school the time when we talk about what we did on our summer vacation?
I spent the summer working on landscapes (taken on tripod). I learned and started practicing the idea of pushing a histogram as far to the right as possible to make for details in the shadows of the final photos. To accomplish this I was trying to shoot using Aperture Priority at f11 and then using the main command dial to raise or lower shutter speed to get the histogram pushed to the right. (I'm liking the final photos once I've adjusted them in Lightroom 4 because there's more detail available in the shadows.)
Now, here's the big revelation (lightbulb/ahaa moment) for me this weekend... I thought I was pushing the histogram to the right by changing shutter speed.
After all that... here's the question(s)... in reality, I'm changing EV? Is that right? or am I changing shutter speed AND EV? Is it a compounded move? or can the two be separated... EV and Shutter speed?
Through some experimentation, I've found that to shoot in Shutter priority, the reverse happens... to push the histogram right, the Aperture moves as well as EV.
BUT, in MANUAL mode, the EV is separate. What is it that the EV does when not changing shutter speed or aperture? Computer wizardry and magic? Does it add more noise?
Can someone please help me confirm/deny or straighten out these mutterings?
Thanks as always for your help!
Dave
PS... one of my real concerns is not always being aware that the EV has been set as a pick up the camera for a quick shot and I lose the shot because the EV got in the way.

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
aolander Silver Member
11th Sep 2012
1
Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
12th Sep 2012
2
     Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
aolander Silver Member
12th Sep 2012
3
     Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
4
          Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
briantilley Moderator
14th Sep 2012
5
          Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
11
               Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
briantilley Moderator
14th Sep 2012
16
                    Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
18
                         Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
kentak Silver Member
15th Sep 2012
21
          Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
kentak Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
6
          Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
12
          Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
aolander Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
7
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DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
13
     Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
Leonard62 Gold Member
14th Sep 2012
10
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Arkayem Moderator
14th Sep 2012
8
Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
Leonard62 Gold Member
14th Sep 2012
9
Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
15
Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
14
     Reply message RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV
aolander Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
17
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Arkayem Moderator
14th Sep 2012
19
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DBarnes Silver Member
14th Sep 2012
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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Tue 11-Sep-12 07:23 PM
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#1. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue 11-Sep-12 07:42 PM by aolander

Nevis, US
          

"Exposure value (EV) denotes all combinations of a camera's shutter speed and relative aperture that give the same exposure." (Wikipedia definition)

You're using a different EV if you select an aperture/shutter speed combination that doesn't give you the same exposure. It doesn't matter whether the change is made with the aperture or the shutter speed.

For example, if the the "correct" exposure for a scene requires f/8 at 1/125, then f/5.6 at 1/250 and a number of other combinations will all give you the same ("correct") exposure. These are all EV 13. If you use f/5.6 and 1/125 to move your histogram to the right, you would be using EV 12, but f/8 at 1/60 would also be EV 12; i.e. both give the one more stop of exposure, both are EV 12. You changed the EV in one case with the aperture, the other with the shutter speed.

(The ISO remains constant in all of these examples.)

Alan

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Wed 12-Sep-12 01:55 AM
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#2. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

Alan... thanks for the quick response. I guess I should have checked Wiki!
Actually, I get your examples of EV.
I still need a couple more answers...
"After all that... here's the question(s)... in reality, I'm changing EV? Is that right? or am I changing shutter speed AND EV? Is it a compounded move? or can the two be separated... EV and Shutter speed?"

"BUT, in MANUAL mode, the EV is separate. What is it that the EV does when not changing shutter speed or aperture? Computer wizardry and magic? Does it add more noise?"

So, then in this case is the exposure compensation different than EV?

Thanks again.
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Wed 12-Sep-12 02:36 AM
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#3. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 2
Wed 12-Sep-12 01:44 PM by aolander

Nevis, US
          

I guess I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from with this...sorry.

But....in the semi-auto modes (SP or AP), Exposure Compensation (EC) is the only way to change the EV (ISO staying the same), i.e. if you use + or - EC you will be changing the EV. In manual mode, you will be changing the EV if you change either the shutter speed or aperture without a compensating change of the other parameter.

EC deviates the exposure from the meter's "correct" exposure either by changing the aperture or shutter speed depending upon which mode you are using (SP or AP). EC used in manual mode biases the meter by whatever +/- amount you have set.

In a nutshell, EC changes EV whether it be by an aperture change or shutter speed change.

Edit:

To answer your specific question, yes, changing the shutter speed (by using EC) changes the EV. Also, EC works the same way with the fully auto modes, too.

Alan

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 11:02 AM
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#4. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 3


US
          

Thanks again Alan. I think I've got it. The only remaining part of the question is really about the need for EC.
If I'm in Aperture Priority and I'm watching the meter and what I want to do is push the histogram to the right, why the need to add EC? Seems like I'm already doing that on my own, by changing the shutter speed? Is the EC doubling my process/result ?
Perhaps I just need to always shoot in Manual?
With your help, things are getting clearer!
Thanks.
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 14-Sep-12 11:17 AM
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#5. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri 14-Sep-12 11:18 AM by briantilley

Paignton, GB
          

Using Aperture Priority, when you change the aperture the camera will adjust the shutter speed to keep the same exposure value - as long are you're not limited by the fastest or slowest available speed, neither the meter nor the histogram will move. Adding +ve Exposure Compensation in this situation will push the histogram to the right.

Using Manual exposure mode, the meter and the histogram will move when you vary the aperture or the shutter speed, because by changing either (or both) you are altering the exposure value.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 07:47 PM
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#11. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

Brian... there's the answer I was looking for. Once I set Aperture Priority and then f11... the only thing the main command dial does is change EC. (+/- EV) Correct? I was under the mis-impression that it changed shutter speed. Not sure I ever knew that before.
Thanks.
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 14-Sep-12 08:30 PM
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#16. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 11


Paignton, GB
          

I think we are nearly there, so I hope I don't confuse things further...!

In Aperture Priority mode, the sub-command dial (the front one) allows you to choose the aperture value you want - let's assume you have (as you mentioned) chosen f/11. Turning the main command dial (the rear one) then has no effect - UNLESS you have Custom Setting b5 Easy Exposure Compensation set to "on".

If that is the case, turning the main command dial will apply positive or negative (depending which way you turn it) exposure compensation. Since you are in Aperture Priority and have fixed the f/stop that you want, it does this by adjusting the other half of the exposure equation - the shutter speed - to give you the higher or lower exposure value (EV) that you are looking for.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 08:58 PM
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#18. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 16


US
          

Once again... I think you've closed the case. The B2 was on. And that's why I was changing the EV when moving that rear command dial. Once I turned that off, the problem didn't exist. Now, I've just gotta figure out whether I like it that way or not.
You and the rest of the Nikonian squad members are the best!
Off to shoot with more knowledge. I love it!
Thanks!
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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kentak Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2010Sat 15-Sep-12 02:18 AM
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#21. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 18


US
          

>Once again... I think you've closed the case. The B2 was on.
> And that's why I was changing the EV when moving that rear
>command dial. Once I turned that off, the problem didn't
>exist. Now, I've just gotta figure out whether I like it that
>way or not.
>You and the rest of the Nikonian squad members are the best!
>
>Off to shoot with more knowledge. I love it!
>Thanks!
>Dave

Brian figured out the source of the confusion and miscommunication. It didn't occur to me you might have Easy EC (B2) set to on. In fact, I probably forgot there was such an option since I don't think I've ever used. But, it explains why you actually *were* changing shutter speed and also seeing the meter while you were rotating the main command dial.

Anyway, I hope you are getting things sorted out. The easiest way to do what you are intending might be to just use Manual mode. Set the f-stop you desire, and adjust the shutter speed using the main command dial while using the meter to track the deviation from "normal" exposure. Be sure to turn menu item B2 to Off, and Exposure Compensation (via the top button) is returned to zero.

Kent

  

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kentak Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2010Fri 14-Sep-12 12:59 PM
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#6. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri 14-Sep-12 01:01 PM by kentak

US
          

Dave,

There are a couple of aspects of your posts that are bothering me.

You keep talking about changing the shutter speed, but if you are in Aperture priority mode, you can not change the shutter speed from what the exposure system sets unless you change the aperture or ISO. And in either of those cases the EV remains constant and the histogram won't change. In A mode, turning the main (rear) command dial has no effect on shutter speed.

Also, you mentioned "watching the meter." In Aperture priority, the meter in the viewfinder is usually not visible as long as the camera can set a "correct" exposure. The only time the meter appears in A mode is when you press the EC button and/or dial in some exposure compensation, or the camera can't set a correct exposure.

If I understand what you're wanting to do--push the histogram to the right--there are two ways to do so if your preference is to set a given aperture. One is to use A mode and dial in some + EC. The other is to use Manual mode, set the aperture you want, and then dial in a shutter speed that gives a measure of + exposure as indicated by the meter (which is always visible in M mode).

Hope this helps.

Kent

  

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 07:54 PM
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#12. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 6


US
          

Kent... that's great. I didn't realize the lack of meter idea. I think what had confused me along the way was that I was using the rear dial and making the meter show up and give me an idea I was pushing the histogram to the right, but I didn't realize I was really pushing the EC. Thanks for the lesson!
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Fri 14-Sep-12 01:15 PM
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#7. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri 14-Sep-12 01:20 PM by aolander

Nevis, US
          

Like Kent, part of what I wasn't understanding was the "changing the shutter speed" thing. I'll be repeating others here, but in AP mode you can't change the shutter speed manually; the camera chooses the shutter speed and will change it if you change the aperture to keep the same exposure (same EV). The only way to change the exposure from "correct" is with EC (thereby changing the EV) in either AP, SP, and auto modes. In manual, you can change anything you want without camera interference so you can over or underexpose however many stops you want (again, changing the EV).

You can change the aperture all day long in AP mode (or shutter speed in SP mode) and the EV will stay the same. You have to use EC.

Alan

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 07:56 PM
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#13. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

That's the ticket Allen. Thanks so much for following me on this rut-filled adventure. I appreciate your persistence!
I think I've got it!
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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Leonard62 Gold Member Awarded for excellent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community, especially of Nikkor Lenses Nikonian since 15th Mar 2009Fri 14-Sep-12 06:10 PM
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#10. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 2


Hatboro, Pa, US
          


>
>"BUT, in MANUAL mode, the EV is separate. What is it that
>the EV does when not changing shutter speed or aperture?
>Computer wizardry and magic? Does it add more noise?"
>
>So, then in this case is the exposure compensation different
>than EV?
>
>Thanks again.
>Dave

EV ( exposure value) is a number which is determined by light intensity as measured by a light meter and the ISO value of either the film being used or the set sensitivity of the digital camera. It is just a number and it cannot change.

Now that we have this number, whatever it is, it defines the exact aperture opening and shutter speed which will properly expose the photo. This number can be maintained over many combinations of aperture and shutter speed and give the exact same exposure. When you are in Aperture Priority mode or Shutter priority mode the only thing the camera is doing is giving you a choice of which combination to use. The EV is still the same number.

Now if you want to make your photo lighter or darker what you need to do is compensate the exposure by using the EC button and dial in the + or - compensation you want.

You did not change the EV, that is controlled by the light intensity and ISO rating. You over rode the EV value. In effect you are disregarding what the light meter is telling you for whatever reason.

Len

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberFri 14-Sep-12 02:05 PM
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#8. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>PS... one of my real concerns is not always being aware that
>the EV has been set as a pick up the camera for a quick shot
>and I lose the shot because the EV got in the way.

This is why I always leave the EV set to zero. It's just too easy to forget you have adjusted it, and you end up ruining a whole series of shots.

When I want to change the exposure from what the camera would choose, (like pushing the histogram to the right), I always switch to manual mode and adjust shutter or aperture.

I think EV should be used only when the camera is continually under or overexposing, to bring it back where it should be.

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Leonard62 Gold Member Awarded for excellent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community, especially of Nikkor Lenses Nikonian since 15th Mar 2009Fri 14-Sep-12 05:41 PM
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#9. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 8


Hatboro, Pa, US
          

Russ, You're talking about Exposure Compensation via the +/- button. That's not what the OP is talking about. There is some confusion here which Alan is trying to explain but it doesn't seem to be getting through. On second thought maybe that's what the OP is talking about.

Len

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 08:02 PM
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#15. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 9


US
          

Thanks Len. It finally did get through. I'd like to blame it on the aging process. Not sure I can, but I'm gonna give it a try.
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 08:00 PM
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#14. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 8


US
          

Russ... that's EXACTLY what my problem was. I was picking up my camera and finding a whole series of shots ruined because I didn't know I'd change EV. I thought I'd been changing shutter speed.
And I'm also on my way to following you toward pushing the histogram to the right by switching over to manual. That way when I pick up the camera the next time I'll know there's a problem right away because I'm shooting in manual. Duh.
Most of my problems are self inflicted. Gotta get the brain to work a little harder.
Thanks so much!
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Fri 14-Sep-12 08:31 PM
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#17. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 14


Nevis, US
          

"Brian... there's the answer I was looking for. Once I set Aperture Priority and then f11... the only thing the main command dial does is change EC. (+/- EV) Correct? I was under the mis-impression that it changed shutter speed. Not sure I ever knew that before.
Thanks."

Perhaps we have been misunderstanding what you have been trying to ask. When in Aperture Priority, and you use EC with the main command dial (to change the EV), yes, you are changing the shutter speed. That's how the EV is changed. In AP, you have fixed the f/stop so for the camera to change the EV it has to change the shutter speed. There isn't another parameter to change (forget about ISO for the moment) to change the EV.

Alan

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberFri 14-Sep-12 09:42 PM
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#19. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 17


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>"Brian... there's the answer I was looking for. Once I
>set Aperture Priority and then f11... the only thing the main
>command dial does is change EC. (+/- EV) Correct? I was under
>the mis-impression that it changed shutter speed. Not sure I
>ever knew that before.
>Thanks."
>
>Perhaps we have been misunderstanding what you have been
>trying to ask. When in Aperture Priority, and you use EC with
>the main command dial (to change the EV), yes, you are
>changing the shutter speed. That's how the EV is changed. In
>AP, you have fixed the f/stop so for the camera to change the
>EV it has to change the shutter speed. There isn't another
>parameter to change (forget about ISO for the moment) to
>change the EV.

Yes, this is correct.

But....Then, if you are using Auto ISO, the ISO may also change as you change EC (also called EV by many people).

To me, it just makes more sense to use camera EC only for when you want to change the exposure for a series of shots. If each shot is different, you should use aperture and shutter to control the exposure with camera EC set to zero.

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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DBarnes Silver Member Nikonian since 25th Oct 2008Fri 14-Sep-12 10:18 PM
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#20. "RE: Aperture/Shutter Priority and EV"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

Again, thanks Alan. I'm sure I was making this whole thing more difficult than needed to be. But I think I've now got all the information and have pieced it together in a way that I pretty sure makes sense. Once again, thank you for your patience and persistence!
Dave

http://fullframedreams.smugmug.com/

  

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