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Subject: "Why care about ISO50?" Previous topic | Next topic
JMWarren Registered since 24th Jun 2002Fri 06-Feb-04 03:34 AM
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"Why care about ISO50?"


Mississauga/London, CA
          

I've read an aweful lot of posts on Nikon boards from people who want lower ISO speeds on Digital SLRs. My question is why? If the sensor is capable of producing a noiseless image at 200iso why bother with 50iso? I guess maybe for super highlighting conditions/long exposures but we do have things called ND filters! On the D70 would there be any advantage to having a lower ISO speed in terms of image quality? Maybe i've missed somthing HUGE here, feel free to point it out.

Can't wait to get my hands on a D70 and SB-600/800, my non-swivelhead SB-50dx always bugged me anyways.

Mike Warren

Mike Warren

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
BJNicholls Gold Member
06th Feb 2004
1
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
bobj Silver Member
06th Feb 2004
3
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
kdsmithjr
08th Feb 2004
14
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
gavinjung
06th Feb 2004
2
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
jnscbl
06th Feb 2004
4
     Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
vchong
06th Feb 2004
5
     Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
BJNicholls Gold Member
07th Feb 2004
13
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
vfnewman Gold Member
06th Feb 2004
6
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
bobj Silver Member
06th Feb 2004
7
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
vfnewman Gold Member
06th Feb 2004
8
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
gavinjung
06th Feb 2004
12
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
tl
06th Feb 2004
9
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
bobj Silver Member
06th Feb 2004
10
     Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
tl
06th Feb 2004
11
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
Covey22 Moderator
09th Feb 2004
15
Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
jnscbl
09th Feb 2004
16
     Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
Covey22 Moderator
10th Feb 2004
17
          Reply message RE: Why care about ISO50?
jnscbl
10th Feb 2004
18

BJNicholls Gold Member Awarded for his contributions to the community and the Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 03:53 AM
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#1. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 0


Salt Lake City, US
          

Who knows where the noise/exposure curve bottoms out for the N70's sensor? Anyone who is fretting is doing so based on pure speculation.

Meanwhile, I chalk this concern up to folks who don't recognize a great value when it bites them in the butt. Might as well complain that it's not 8fps as well...


BJ

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 05:57 AM
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#3. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 1


Sammamish, US
          

200 ISO is the base sensitivity (unamplified) of the sensor. To get higher ISO's the signal has to be boosted which introduces the noise. So long as you shoot at the base ISO of any sensor you are not amplifying the signal so you are not adding any additional noise. It doesn't matter that some DSLR's may be ISO 100 and others 200 as this just indicates that one is more sensitive than the other. Since neither (when shooting at their base ISO settings) is amplifed though, noise should be equally not a problem on either.

Unfortunately, people equate (incorrectly) ISO 200 on a D70 (not N70) or D100 with ISO 200 speed film. Both have the same sensitivity to light since this is what ISO means, but the noise potential for each comes from a different source so you can't compare this aspect with any validiity.

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kdsmithjr Basic MemberSun 08-Feb-04 03:39 PM
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#14. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 1


Ithaca, US
          


K. D. Smith, Jr.
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gavinjung Registered since 04th Apr 2002Fri 06-Feb-04 04:23 AM
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#2. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 0


Vancouver, CA
          

people are probably just mistaking the iso numbers as an indication of noise instead of what they really specify, sensitivity. i agree, why bother with iso50 if you can get a noiseless and silky smooth iso200? like you said, just use an ND.

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jnscbl Basic MemberFri 06-Feb-04 05:28 PM
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#4. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 2


US
          

Obviously, most of you appreciate the noiseless ISO 200, and hold in low regard those who do not agree with you (what else is new). So that begs the question: Did Nikon design a ISO 200 chip to please some socioeconomic demographic which has a propensity to buy a lot of new stuff, or has it something to do with chip design and manufacturing? Seems like these days making a superfast shutter, which once was a noteworthy achievement, is now an easy fix. It's still a mechanical world, apparently.

--scott

"There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them."
Louis Armstrong

--scott

"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

  

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vchong Basic MemberFri 06-Feb-04 05:51 PM
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#5. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 4


Victoria, CA
          

Well, I don't think that there's much more to discuss on the topic of ISO 200 base sensitivity. As others have said, the CCD is sensitive enough to warrant an ISO 200 rating... so provided that it is as noiseless as we hope, the higher the base sensitivity the better, IMHO.

I don't think this rating is a marketing ploy per se because it's not a specification that the masses have fixated on (yet?) in their purchasing decisions. I would say the rating has more to do with design and manufacture than anything else. Anyway. it's always better to add an ND filter (like on a Sony Handycam) than to boost ISO through amplification.

http://www.finearts.uvic.ca/~vchong/images/vchong.gif

  

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BJNicholls Gold Member Awarded for his contributions to the community and the Resources Charter MemberSat 07-Feb-04 12:04 AM
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#13. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 4


Salt Lake City, US
          

No, Scott. I appreciate my ISO 100 Fuji sensor. I just think that the D70 is so much more camera than anyone expected for the pricepoint that it's petty to pick it apart for its ISO rating. Until we see some sample images, we'll just have to posture about whether or not Nikon's putting the best it has in the camera or not. The sensor is only part of the package. The support electronics doing the image processing are just as important and might be a point for shortcuts and economy moves. Beyond that, the firmware and product design could limit features like ISO choices merely for product positioning. So far, I've been impressed that Nikon and Canon don't seem inclined to detune the capture performance for their least expensive bodies.

BJ

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vfnewman Gold Member Awarded for his multiple contributions to Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 07:17 PM
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#6. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 0


Forest, US
          

I wish I had a camera that had a lower ISO that 200, and it has nothing to do with noise.

When I shoot racing I want motion blur and shallow depth of field at the same time. If I could shoot in full sunlight at 1/125 sec and f/4 or f/5.6 I'd be very very happy.

With an ISO 200 sensor, using the sunny 16 rule, I'm shooting at around f/22 to get 1/125. I normally use 2 stops of ND filtration to get the aperture open two more stops. I'd use more, but the AF performance becomes very poor if more ND is added.

If I could have an ISO 50 sensor, the sunny 16 rule would put me at f/11 and 1/125. I could then put two stops of ND in and be very happy at f/5.6.

Victor Newman

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 07:46 PM
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#7. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 6


Sammamish, US
          

Yes, this is indeed a valid point. Switching from film to the D100 forced me to get stronger solid ND filters

I have not found AF to be an issue though as I use a single 6-stop filter rather than stacking filters. It makes things dark, but AF still seems fine even when I can't see as much as I'd like to myself.

Bob Johnson
Earthbound Light
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vfnewman Gold Member Awarded for his multiple contributions to Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 07:49 PM
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#8. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 7


Forest, US
          

I'm glad you don't have problems with AF, but tracking a car moving ~150 mph becomes a no-go

Maybe the newer AF sensor of the D2H will do better.

FWIW, at least I'm lucky to be able to get off cheaply and use ND gels in the gel holder of my 400 f/2.8.

Victor Newman

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gavinjung Registered since 04th Apr 2002Fri 06-Feb-04 11:24 PM
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#12. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 6


Vancouver, CA
          

yeah, i guess stacking ND filters would suck for some applications. i guess i was thinking more about blurred waterfalls and the like where AF speed was not really an issue. with the CAM 900 on the D70, i suppose a lower base iso might be beneficial. however, i kinda have to agree with vchong. if the base iso was lower, you'd have to use more amplification to get the fast iso numbers. i suppose it's kind of a trade off. if getting iso100 was at the cost of losing iso1600, i don't think i'd make the trade. especially because iso200 and up would all get noisier. in fact, perhaps that's why the chip was designed at 200: to match the most popular ranges. i guess we'll have to wait until the technology improves. but honestly, given what is driving the market (people's interest in megapixels) it might be a while before they address this much more. unfortunately.

gj

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tl Basic MemberFri 06-Feb-04 08:01 PM
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#9. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 0


Ames, US
          

A slight aside, if I may. How does the ND filter impact the ISO/ noise issue?

  

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberFri 06-Feb-04 08:44 PM
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#10. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 9


Sammamish, US
          

It doesn't imact the noise issue at all. At higher ISO settings though, exposures can happen with less light. This meas either being forced to use smaller apertures, shorter shutter speeds, or reducing the light transmission with ND filters. Sometimes neither of the first two options are good ones. For me, it's hard to get a blurred waterfall at ISO 200 on a reasonably sunny day even with the aperture stopped way down.

Bob Johnson
Earthbound Light
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tl Basic MemberFri 06-Feb-04 09:27 PM
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#11. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 10


Ames, US
          

Ah, now I see. I was confused by the proximity of both noise and ND filters discussions in the context of ISO 200 (not yet a digital camera owner). Learned something new today about both topics in this thread. Thanks.

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberMon 09-Feb-04 02:25 AM
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#15. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Folks - a friendly reminder - please keep this thread on-topic and the discussion open but courteous.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

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jnscbl Basic MemberMon 09-Feb-04 05:38 PM
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#16. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 15


US
          

Why don't you just delete message number fourteen? Editing the message entirely and replacing it with red ink looks like you are trying to make an example of someone. What he said didn't even come close to warranting such a response. It was not profane, nor directed at anyone in this thread.

--scott

"There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them."
Louis Armstrong

--scott

"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberTue 10-Feb-04 02:19 PM
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#17. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 16


US
          

If you have concerns regarding the moderation of this forum, please feel free to send them to forumadministrator@nikonians.org. Note that this message does not go to the Moderator Team, but higher up on the management chains - so your comments and concerns will remain confidential.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
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My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

See My Nikonians Gallery

  

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jnscbl Basic MemberTue 10-Feb-04 05:25 PM
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#18. "RE: Why care about ISO50?"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

I have no concerns. In fact, you are the model moderator. Since you dodged the question so elegantly, I'll drop the matter as a show of respect.

--scott

"There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them."
Louis Armstrong

--scott

"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

  

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