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Subject: "Work around for DX flashes with D70?" Previous topic | Next topic
lasvegas_art Registered since 10th May 2002Sat 28-Feb-04 10:58 PM
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"Work around for DX flashes with D70?"


Vancouver, CA
          

If a non i-TTL flash such as the SB-28DX TTL flash was mounted on a wireless TTL slave trigger such as the Ikelite LiteLink (or Nikon SU-4) and triggered by the on-camera i-TTL D70 flash, would the resulting flash exposure be correct? Presumably, the flash expsoure is being controlled by the i-TTL meter in the D70, so as soon as the exposure is interpreted as “correct” by this meter then the D70 shuts off it’s built in on-camera flash and then the LiteLink would immediately extinguish it’s TTL mounted flash.

The reason for asking is that I own the above DX flash unit, having upgraded from an SB-26 in preparation of the day I “go digital” only to find Nikon has now changed the digital goal posts by introducing the i-TTL line of digital flashes with the D2H. On one hand I guess I applaude Nikon on improving its flash system to get the best out of digital photography, but I am disapointed that Nikon elected to design the upcoming D70 so that all owners of their previous digital DX line of flashes are screwed (no TTL) if they want to use their existing digital flash units with the D70 (both the DX and the newer i-TTL line of flashes works in TTL mode on the D2H (see the D2H specs), so technically Nikon has already solved any probems of making their latest digital camera bodies accept their two lines of digital flashes. I don’t think Nikon was too smart with this aspect of the D70 – if the D70 had both i-TTL and DX flash capability then a lot of Nikon “fence sitters” would be jumping off to try the digital “entry-level” option that the D70 represents. Instead, as a lot of posts are noting, the actual cost of the “sub-$1,000” D70 will be inflated by the requirement to purchase (for ~$300) one of the newer i-TTL flash units.

But I am wondering if I can still use the SB-28DX (or any other Nikon TTL flash) off camera when combined with either of the above wireless TTL slaves when controlled/triggered by the D70 built in on-camera flash (I know this set up works with my F100 when the camera mounted TTL flash triggers the flash on my LiteLink slave).

Regards
Art

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
Avi999
29th Feb 2004
1
Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
ManuelH
01st Mar 2004
2
Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
kitu
01st Mar 2004
3
Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
grmedhat1
01st Mar 2004
4
Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
resnica
01st Mar 2004
5
     Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
Avi999
01st Mar 2004
6
     Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
BJNicholls Gold Member
01st Mar 2004
7
     Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
grmedhat1
01st Mar 2004
8
          Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
Avi999
02nd Mar 2004
9
               Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
devons_voice
02nd Mar 2004
10
                    Reply message RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?
kitu
03rd Mar 2004
11

Avi999 Registered since 03rd Jun 2003Sun 29-Feb-04 07:00 AM
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#1. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 0


Kfar-Saba, IL
          

Art, you are so right on this issue.

I believe it is a matter of software that Nikon can change if they want.
We should be heard here ! we want D-TTL and the ability to use SB-XX-DX flashes on D-70, otherwise Nikon will find soon
that their low-cost policy for this camera will turn as a boomerang when people will realize that the so called 'low cost' is turning into high cost because of restrictions that force you to invest much more in items such as flash etc.

If we'll put our effort to let Nikon knows of this issue, perhaps we'll get it on next firmware upgrade...

Let's hear you fellows Nikonians ...
Avi




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ManuelH Registered since 16th Dec 2003Mon 01-Mar-04 07:42 AM
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#2. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 1


Singapore, SG
          

Yes! Agreed totally.

Nikon staff - PLEASE READ THIS:
Allow DX flashes to be used on D70.

I bought the SB80DX (the latest at that time, abt a year+ ago - anticipated the transition to DSlr and save on this portion of investment when upgrading). How wrong am I!!

Release a new firmware v1.1 and fix this and you will make a lot of people happy.....

--------------------------

D70 (Feb 04 - ??)

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kitu Registered since 16th Oct 2003Mon 01-Mar-04 08:06 AM
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#3. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 1


Mikkeli, FI
          

I have D70 on preorder and still wondering if I should cancel the order because D70 lacks support of D-TTL (I've got SB-80DX). Nikon D2H has support for iTTL and D-TTL, Fuji S3Pro has support for D-TTL and so has the Kodak SLRn.

This flash cost about 40% of the price of the D70 so changing it bacause of just this 'cheap' body doesn't seem reasonable.

If this is a matter of software they shouldn't let old users down and bring support for it immidiately. If this is not a software related issue then nothing can be done easily, but otherwise looks like a canon's way of doing lower end models

S3Pro seems to be a very good competitor when you take the cost of changing the flash into consideration. If the SR sensor is not only a promiseware, then it is a very good competitor for any DSLR at any pricepoint.

Kimmo

  

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grmedhat1 Registered since 24th Mar 2002Mon 01-Mar-04 12:55 PM
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#4. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 0


CA
          

Hi Art,

To clarify a few points for you the SB-28DX still offers TTL flash control for your D70. The original SB-28 was slightly modified for DSLRs and the resulting model was the SB-28DX. It was Nikon's first attempt at DX flash for digital bodies and while acceptable may reported it did not work very well. The SB-80DX was an improvement over the previous and the new SB-800/600 and improvement again. On all digital bodies correct flash exposure is determined by the pre-flash and not off the film plane like in a film body. The flash meters in digital bodies can not read the light off the sensor so exposure is determined by the pre-flash before the image is taken. Using a SB-28DX on a D70 still offers TTL flash control. I-TTL flash bodies offer an improved pre-flash sequence over the DX models but the method of determining flash exposure is the same.

As for using your SB-28DX for off camera with your D70 your slave control device has to be able to ignore the pre-flash of the master. An SU-4 type can't do that since the pre-flash is still needed by the D70.

The bottom line is your SB-28DX still offers D-TTL flash control on the D70 but you are using first generation digital flash technology.

Happy Shooting
Garry

  

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resnica Basic MemberMon 01-Mar-04 01:50 PM
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#5. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 4


Bellingham, US
          

Hey Garry,

I'm pretty confused by your post in a couple of areas. Maybe we can figure it out.

First, you suggest that "On all digital bodies correct flash exposure is determined by the pre-flash and not off the film plane like in a film body." I thought that the whole point if DX was that it did do TTL and that its value-added was its ability to read off of the digital sensor. The need for DX was based on differences in reflectivity of the sensor vs. film.

Second, your posts suggests that DX flashes will work more or less the same as the new i-TTL units (SB-600, SB-800). The D70 manual tells a different story, at least the one I got my hands on while it was publically available online. Here's what it says when referring to all Nikon flashes except SB-600, SB-800 and built in: "The following Speedlights can be used in non-TTL auto and manual modes. If they are set to TTL, the camera shutter-release button will lock and no photographs can be taken." This seems to say pretty clearly that SB-80DX and other DX flashes will not do TTL. Instead they do auto non-TTL, which I understand to mean using the flashes' own sensor rather than reading off of the camera's digital sensor.

To summarize, my understanding is that the DX flashes will work, but will not be able to do TTL on a D70. The i-TTL flashes will be able to do TTL, just like film, reading from the digital sensor.

Help sorting this out anyone?

Thanks, Adam

  

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Avi999 Registered since 03rd Jun 2003Mon 01-Mar-04 02:42 PM
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#6. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 5


Kfar-Saba, IL
          

Hello Garry

I'm also confused.
All the info concerning D-70 (manual/catalogues) says only NON-TTL for "old" DX flashes.
I wonder what is your reply based on
Can you please explain ?
Avi




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BJNicholls Gold Member Awarded for his contributions to the community and the Resources Charter MemberMon 01-Mar-04 03:35 PM
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#7. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 5


Salt Lake City, US
          

Gary may be thinking about compatibility for the D2H (although I'm not sure what legacy TTL options it supports). According to the documentation, the D70 supports only manual or non-TTL auto with units before the two new i-TTL models.

You'll only be able to use the SB-50DX in manual mode (it has no built-in Auto sensor). Most other speedlights will work with flash-controlled auto. DX didn't support remote wireless TTL via any unit, so that's not a feature you'd lose compared to the D100.

Although I can understand being upset by the lack of DX D-TTL compatibility, the situation is similar to the one faced by Nikon film body owners moving into DSLR bodies. Nikon's DSLRs only provided acceptable TTL flash operation with DX units, forcing an upgrade. Since i-TTL offers superior exposure accuracy and capability, I would move to the new system since accuracy is the reason to use TTL anyway. I'll bet that flash-controlled auto is as reliable as D-TTL, so the missing compatibility shouldn't really be that much of a concern (unless you own only an SB-50DX).

The folks who are being hit with the upgrade issue twice have a legitimate beef with Nikon. DX was a half-baked solution to a problem it should have identified before releasing the original D1, and it's a technical step backwards from real-time TTL metering. i-TTL is much better, if still a step back from a system that can adjust exposure real-time.

BJ

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grmedhat1 Registered since 24th Mar 2002Mon 01-Mar-04 11:51 PM
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#8. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 5


CA
          

Adam and Avi I stand corrected then as I don't have a copy of the D70 manual. My apologies.

I downloaded the D2H manual and according to the chart on p.111 it will support D-TTL so now I'm wondering why the D70 won't.

DX was developed because DSLRs can't read off the sensor like film bodies can. It has to do with the reflectivity and color of the sensor. This is also the reason why Nikon states wireless SU4 type slave flash is not possible with DSLRs. The pre-flash throws off the timing of the slave. This problem is addressed with CLS.

There is a distinct difference between TTL flash control and D-TTL and iTTL. This difference could be the reason why the D70 manual says TTL flash is not possible. I'm thinking they may be referring to TTL in the traditional sense such as from non-DX flash bodies.

In the meantime I'll do a little digging.

As BJ mentioned it certainly would be upsetting that a double upgrade is in order. If the D2H can use the DX line of speedlights there is no legitimate reason why this could not be incorporated into the D70.

Happy Shooting
Garry

  

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Avi999 Registered since 03rd Jun 2003Tue 02-Mar-04 05:19 AM
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#9. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 8


Kfar-Saba, IL
          

>>>"As BJ mentioned it certainly would be upsetting that a double upgrade is in order. If the D2H can use the DX line of speedlights there is no legitimate reason why this could not be incorporated into the D70." Garry <<<


I totally agree.
This is a limitation we can not accept and if it can be upgraded, let's try to make Nikon realize we need it !!!
If D2H can use DX flashes why not D70 ?

Can anyone of you fellows that have connections @Nikon find out about it and find out if this upgrade is possible?

Avi





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devons_voice Registered since 04th Nov 2003Tue 02-Mar-04 03:20 PM
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#10. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 9


Snoqualmie, US
          

FYI, I just emailed Nikon about my SB50-DX and how it will work with the D70, and this was their response:

"The SB-50DX will work with the D70, but only in manual and rear-curtain sync."

At least it will work to some extent, but this is frustrating! I, like many others, bought a DX model so that I could use it on a digital camera someday.
Devon

  

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kitu Registered since 16th Oct 2003Wed 03-Mar-04 09:16 AM
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#11. "RE: Work around for DX flashes with D70?"
In response to Reply # 10


Mikkeli, FI
          

DTTL impossible on D70?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=7849944

Kimmo

  

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