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lisowskimf Registered since 21st Jun 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 02:11 AM
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"D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"



          

Hello Everyone,

I am getting ready to make my decision on what DSLR to purchase. I currently have no investment of dollars in lenses etc.. I have been monitoring the forums for both cameras. Based on these I have tried to summarize the benefits of each camera (I think I have all the info correct). Review the list and let me know if I missed anything? I am looking for intelligent responses and not blind loyalty.

20D
8.2Mp
low noise @ high iso
9 point AF
mag alloy body
12 bit/per channel raw output
10x review
monochrome mode
Raw + JPEG(fine, normal) separate file
MLU

D70
1/500 flash sync
custom curves
quieter shutter
spot meter
3d Matrix metering
+-5EV in 1/3 or 1/2 steps expo compensation
first and second curtain flash
cost

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
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avm247 Moderator
28th Nov 2004
1
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mikhailr
29th Nov 2004
20
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Covey22 Moderator
30th Nov 2004
38
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4walls
29th Dec 2004
45
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Nikkorlust
28th Nov 2004
2
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witwald
28th Nov 2004
8
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bobj Silver Member
28th Nov 2004
11
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neilxt
28th Nov 2004
3
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pradipta
28th Nov 2004
4
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nu 2 slr
28th Nov 2004
5
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simpo two
28th Nov 2004
6
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witwald
28th Nov 2004
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28th Nov 2004
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dankeny Gold Member
28th Nov 2004
12
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30th Nov 2004
32
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bobj Silver Member
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archivue Gold Member
28th Nov 2004
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avm247 Moderator
28th Nov 2004
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28th Nov 2004
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28th Nov 2004
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28th Nov 2004
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29th Nov 2004
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30th Nov 2004
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29th Nov 2004
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30th Nov 2004
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30th Nov 2004
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01st Dec 2004
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30th Nov 2004
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01st Dec 2004
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02nd Dec 2004
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avm247 Moderator Awarded for high skills in documentary architecture and aviation photography Charter MemberSun 28-Nov-04 02:57 AM
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#1. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Rancho Cordova, US
          

Spot metering really rates high in my book. Difference between 8MP and 6MP isn't much. However, you are comparing a mid level Canon to the "entry level" Nikon.

Nikon's D100 (the mid level camera) is on its way out after a three year run. During that production run, Canon released the D30, D60, 10D and now the 20D.

Nikon is slower is to realease camera bodies than its competitor but when released, Nikon tends to, in the words of some photographers, "get it right the first time."

The D70 is so much better than the Digital Rebel and gives the D100 and the Canon 10D a run for the money, too.

Like all things electronic, can you wait a little longer? Nikon is set to release a D100 replacement around PMA (February 2005). Of course, a camera in hand now sure beats one "in the wings." (And Nikon is notorious for late delivery of new products, compounded by initial excitement makes early acquisitions sometimes difficult.)

Now then, Nikonians.org is the only website and brand user group of its kind, something that I think is a big plus to Nikon users. I don't know of a comparable Canon, Pentax or Konica Minolta user group as large as Nikonians.

And again, spot metering is a deal breaker for me.

Good luck with your decision.

Anthony

The Moderator Page and My Gallery
The important things in life are simple; the simple things are hard.

  

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mikhailr Registered since 21st Nov 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 03:04 AM
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#20. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 1


Vitebsk, BY
          

>Like all things electronic, can you wait a little longer?
>Nikon is set to release a D100 replacement around PMA
>(February 2005). Of course, a camera in hand now sure beats
>one "in the wings." (And Nikon is notorious for late
>delivery of new products, compounded by initial excitement
>makes early acquisitions sometimes difficult.)

Couldn't anybody give links or another info to find out more about D100 replacement.

Thank you, Mikhail.

My gallery: http://www.mi16.ru

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberTue 30-Nov-04 03:49 PM
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#38. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

There are no current links or information regarding a D100 replacement at this time. Looking at the current offerings on the market plus the current improvements that came out of the D70/D2H/D2X one can take a guess but nothing has been hinted at this time. Wait until February for Photo Marketing Association's 2005 convention. Usually big announcements are made there by camera manufacturers.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
Nikonians News - Fresh Everyday!

The Covey Blog!

My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

See My Nikonians Gallery

  

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4walls Registered since 29th Dec 2004Wed 29-Dec-04 10:01 PM
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#45. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 1


Vancouver, CA
          

Just a couple of comments...

I agree with the 8MP vs 6MP issue. Doesn't make that much
difference.

As far as Nikonians.org being the only web site of its kind,
that is a little arrogant. Canon has a huge digital photo-
graphy website (dedicated to Canon Digitals). They have over
21,000 members. This website is dedicated to Nikon users of
film and digital cameras.

The 20D is a great camera. Try it out if you have a chance.
The high ISO results are amazing. I think the real deal closer
would be accessories. If you have Nikon accessories get the
D70, if you have Canon accessories...

Don't be fooled by spot metering on the D70 either. It is a 5°
meter and not the high end spot meter found on the high end
Nikons.

Out of courtesy to this website I will not post the link to the
Canon website here. If you are interested in the site, send me
a PM and I will point you towards it.

>Spot metering really rates high in my book. Difference
>between 8MP and 6MP isn't much. However, you are comparing
>a mid level Canon to the "entry level" Nikon.
>
>Now then, Nikonians.org is the only website and brand user
>group of its kind, something that I think is a big plus to
>Nikon users. I don't know of a comparable Canon, Pentax or
>Konica Minolta user group as large as Nikonians.
>
>And again, spot metering is a deal breaker for me.
>
>Good luck with your decision.

4walls
49°03'N 122°49'W

_________________
4walls
49°03'N 122°49'W

  

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Nikkorlust Registered since 28th Sep 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 04:04 AM
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#2. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I would point out the D70's RAW output is also 12-bit.

I also notice you are comparing an entry-level Nikon to mid-level Canon, and concur with the opinion that you would need to wait for the D100 replacement from Nikon to compare Nikon's competition for the 20D.

I think the best advice for anyone trying to decide between different cameras is to be honest about what you will use the camera for, and then compare pertinent features and performance characteristics.

If frame rate (something you didn't mention) is critical, the 20D is the winner.

On the other hand, if you shoot a lot of outdoor portraits the D70's 1/500 flash sync is huge.

MLU and a spot meter are two items at play here that if you need, you need.

If you're having trouble deciding, you should probably spend some more time determining what you will really be doing with your camera. If you are just trying to decide which of two cameras are generally better than the other, you could wear yourself out, not come up with a definitive answer, and possibly end up buying the one that will be less effective for what you actually use it for. If however you are looking for the most effective tool for a well-defined purpose, one will likely emerge over the other clearly and quickly.

Will
www.jadecreekphotography.com/

  

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witwald Registered since 08th Jan 2008Sun 28-Nov-04 10:57 AM
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#8. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 2


AU
          

>I would point out the D70's RAW output is also 12-bit.

Not exactly. It is a lossy compressed NEF format that attempts to approximate the quality inherent in the original 12-bit data captured by the CCD.

--
Witold.

  

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberSun 28-Nov-04 03:56 PM
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#11. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 8


Sammamish, US
          

Not very lossy, and an extremely accurate approximation. You give way too much weight to the fact that NEF is compressed.

Bob Johnson
Earthbound Light
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
http://www.earthboundlight.com - lots of new images!!

Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Lots more new images!! - Weekly Phototips and Articles - RSS Feed

  

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neilxt Registered since 01st Sep 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 06:29 AM
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#3. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


United States, US
          

>Hello Everyone,

>20D
...
>low noise @ high iso
The D70 apparently rates very well at this, too.
...
>12 bit/per channel raw output
The D70 NEF RAW does, too


A really, REALLY big factor also is "ergonomics",

I can't speak for the 20D but I'd rate the D70 "pretty good" in that respect.

Neil
:->|}

  

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pradipta Registered since 03rd Oct 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 06:38 AM
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#4. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


San Jose, US
          

D70 also has the capability to generate RAW + JPEG - though only the basic not fine.

The other plus is the advanced wireless creative lighting support of D70 using multiple speedlights where Canon 20D is not even close.

- Pradipta
Speed is significant and interesting but accuracy is downright fascinating!
My Gallery

  

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nu 2 slr Registered since 03rd Nov 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 09:21 AM
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#5. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Osaka, JP
          

It sounds like you are just getting into SLR's as you have no lenses. That's how I came in to. I decided on the D70 because it seemed like a great camera and the price was right. I had no idea what functions I really needed or wanted. I doubt you will be disappointed if you buy the D70 or the 20D or the replacement for the D100.
Having said all that, I find having access to people who will gladly help you to learn and improve your skills and technique is a big plus, and Nikonians does that. Before becoming a member here recently, and not even a full one yet at that, I was reading forums and trying to get info to help me improve. It's fantastic.
Good luck with your choice.

  

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simpo two Registered since 17th Aug 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 09:25 AM
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#6. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


GB
          

Hi,

Not surprisingly I know more abou the D70 than the 20D but I woudl concur with other observations, especially the one that you are comparing the entry level Nikon with a mid-level Canon: the prices alone demontrate this.

I do not believe there is any practical difference between 6 and 8 Mp. Manufacturers play the Mp card because they know punters fall for it, yet beyond a certain point featurs and functionality are more important IMO.

The is no such thing as the perfect camera. If I was designing my own, it would of course be a little different from anything on the market, eg in terms of controls, layout and the prioritisation given to various features. However, I found that the D70 came closest. There are a couple of buttons I'd relegate to a menu and vice versa, but for an off-the-shelf product it's pretty close.

From other forums I glean that if you are professional sports photographer, then Canon currently has an edge due to its range of very long fast (and very expensive - but for pros price is less of an issue) lenses. However even a hardened Canon fan (a pro friend of mine who's just ordered a 1DS Mk2) will admit that the Nikon matrix and flash metering system are superior.

Going through the lists, you have to decide what is important to YOU. I don't see any point in 'monochrome' mode - I can do that with far more control in PS, and what if I later decide I want it in colour?

Re the 10x review, the D70 standard 'button press' zoom is not 10x but you can zoom in further using the command dial if you want to.

Ultimately, if can't seperate the cameras, then the money saved by choosing the D70 can be put towards lenses instead. And your lens collection can be regarded as more important/valuable than the body - people keep lenses but change bodies (IYKWM!)

Well that's my bit; good luck

John
www.blokewithacamera.co.uk

John
www.blokewithacamera.co.uk

  

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witwald Registered since 08th Jan 2008Sun 28-Nov-04 11:03 AM
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#9. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 6


AU
          

>Manufacturers play the Mp card because they know
>punters fall for it,

Do manufacturer's really do that? Or is all incremental improvement of products to be ignored? Some manufacturers have the resources and the R&D to be able to bring to market incremental improvements, while others must rely on progress being initiated from their suppliers. Their suppliers only do this if they feel that the potential market warrants such development.

--
Witold.

  

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simpo two Registered since 17th Aug 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 03:48 PM
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#10. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 9


GB
          

>>Manufacturers play the Mp card because they know
>>punters fall for it,
>
>Do manufacturer's really do that? Or is all incremental
>improvement of products to be ignored?

I quote from Ken Rockwell:
'The megapixel myth was started by camera makers and swallowed hook, line and sinker by camera measurbators. Camera makers use the number of megapixels a camera has to hoodwink you into thinking it has something to do with camera quality. They use it because even a tiny linear resolution increase results in a huge total pixel increase, since the total pixel count varies as the total area of the image, which varies as the square of the linear resolution. In other words, an almost invisible 40% increase in the number of pixels in any one direction results in a doubling of the total number of pixels in the image. Therefore camera makers can always brag about how much better this week's camera is, with even negligible improvements.

One needs about a doubling of linear resolution or film size to make an obvious improvement. This is the same as a quadrupling of megapixels. A simple doubling of megapixels, even if all else remained the same, is very subtle. The factors that matter, like color and sharpening algorithms, are far more significant.

The megapixel myth is also prevalent because men always want a single number by which something's goodness can be judged.

Unfortunately, it's all a myth because the number of megapixels (MP) a camera has has very little to do with how the image looks. Even worse, plenty of lower MP cameras can make better images than poorer cameras with more MP.'

John
www.blokewithacamera.co.uk

John
www.blokewithacamera.co.uk

  

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dankeny Gold Member Nikonian since 29th May 2006Sun 28-Nov-04 04:10 PM
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#12. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 10


Roland, US
          

Another Ken Rockwell quote: "I haven't actually used it, but here's my authoritative review." paraphrased for satirical purposes.

I haven't actually used either camera, but I would not hesitate to chose a Nikon. Bodies come and go, but it is all about the glass. Nikkors win this debate.

Why, in this day and age, would you even make an SLR without spot metering? I use it for any challenging situation.

David

David

  

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witwald Registered since 08th Jan 2008Tue 30-Nov-04 07:56 AM
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#32. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 12


AU
          

>Another Ken Rockwell quote: "I haven't actually used it, but
>here's my authoritative review." paraphrased for satirical
>purposes.



>Why, in this day and age, would you even make an SLR without
>spot metering? I use it for any challenging situation.

I completely agree. Not having spot metering on an SLR is a bit of an omission/oversight, by any standards. Not sure what the companies that do this are thinking. Even many mid-range P&S digicams have spot metering, and it sure makes a difference for getting correct exposure in challenging situations.

--
Witold.

  

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberSun 28-Nov-04 04:13 PM
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#13. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 10


Sammamish, US
          

>I quote from Ken Rockwell:

Ken is high on controversy (just read your quote), but somewhat low on facts.

Yes, the myth of pixel count is pervasive but is spread much more by camera marketters and retailers than by camera manufacturers, although it does of course start with them.

Frantkly, pixel count has *nothing* to do with actual resolution. They should be considered independent variables unless all other variables are able to be factored out. If it did, scanning a slide at low resoltuion and upsampling in Photoshop would give you the same results as scanning at higher resolution, which clearly is false. This is due to the difference in *quality* of the pixels in the two images. The upsampled one simply has less information in it and each pixel is not as accurate in terms of the color it should be to represent what is at that location (it was interpolated from what was nearby instead).

In digital cameras, larger sensors generally produce better accuracy than smaller ones, although there are exceptions given that sensor technology plays a huge role as well. Nikon currently produces DSLR's in the 6 MP range and Coolpix cameras up over 8 MP. Which do you think produces a better image?

And we're not talking color or sharpening algorithms either, although this can tweak things a bit. Nope, what makes the most difference (and something that Ken only alludes to briefly at the end) is the actual technology and manufacture of the sensor and how accurately it sees the image in the first place.

Back to the original point of 6 MP versus 8 MP in the comparison that started this thread, a simply comparison of pixel counts is meaningless when the sensor technology is ignored. This would be similar to two people, one with 8 diamonds claiming he is richer than the other with 6. Unless those diamonds are weighed and we know how many carats each actually has, and they are examined so we know their qualtiy and cut (or lack of being cut), the 8 to 6 comparison is meaningless.

Bob Johnson
Earthbound Light
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
http://www.earthboundlight.com - lots of new images!!

Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Lots more new images!! - Weekly Phototips and Articles - RSS Feed

  

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archivue Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Mar 2002Sun 28-Nov-04 09:40 AM
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#7. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Paris, FR
          

In such a decision, I would focus more on lenses then camera model...!

Whatever brand, good lenses are not cheap... Compatibility in time is a real value.
Even with my entry level D70, I can use my really old Nikon lenses (even without metering) and know that the day I'll buy another camera, the lenses I buy today will fit perfectly...

Jacques
"Architecture and Photography are following the same goal ... To sculpt with light !"
More about the Team, my Gallery

Jacques

"Un photographe, finalement, c'est quelqu'un comme les autres, mais qui prend des photos." - Man Ray
My Gallery...
My Other Gallery...

  

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avm247 Moderator Awarded for high skills in documentary architecture and aviation photography Charter MemberSun 28-Nov-04 04:26 PM
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#14. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 7


Rancho Cordova, US
          

Compatibility in time is a real value.

Good point, Jacques. It is the compatablity of the parts that creates the system, and this is exactly what bodies, lenses and flashes (and other accessories) do.

Someone else mentioned ergonomics, to which I will also add user interface. Pick up cameras from both manufactueres and see which seems more intuitive, feels better in the hand and eye, etc. That may ultimately be the deciding factor. I was so sure my cousin would purchase a Nikon body, but it did not feel right to him so he went with Canon. It works for him, it may or may not work for you. Try them in the hand.

If you want to read a comparison between the DRebel and D70 take a look at Thom Hogan's website (www.bythom.com). At least you can get an idea about user interface. He is also working on a 20D review which will be interesting reading.

Anthony

The Moderator Page and My Gallery
The important things in life are simple; the simple things are hard.

  

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edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003Sun 28-Nov-04 04:31 PM
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#15. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 7


eugene, US
          

Go to the canon usa site and try to find a phone number to talk to a real person.

The only way I found was to e-mail them.

ledmun

  

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Frenchie Registered since 06th Oct 2004Sun 28-Nov-04 05:35 PM
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#16. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 15


FR
          

I know nothing about the 20D but any SLR without spot-metering would be useless to me. I can't believe that Canon could produce a camera purporting to be a 'mid-range' DSLR without that facility. How can you set about serious photography using a camera with no spot-meter for God's sake?!

Oh, and the argument about ergonomics is a very valid one. Again, I don't know what the 20D is like but the D70 is superb in this regard

Pete
"Cameras don't take photographs, people do" - John Hedgecoe said that.
"Expose for the highlights and let the shadows take care of themselves" - Ansel Adams said that.
"The camera is only a tool. The best saw in the world won't make you a great carpenter" - I said that
A few photos, here for a reason

  

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stev32k Registered since 27th Dec 2003Sun 28-Nov-04 10:06 PM
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#17. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Mobile, US
          

I would like to add one of my main concerns about Canon, and that is lens mounts. Canon seems to change lens mounts almost as often as they change camera bodies. At least some of the newest Canon lenses that fit the 20D will not fit the 300D or the 10D. So if you want the best Canon lens you must buy the latest Canon body. That is a very large turn-off for me. I wonder if the current crop of Canon lenses that work work with the 20D will work with the next version of Canon's D series bodies?

  

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BurgaFlippinMan Registered since 29th Jun 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 01:05 AM
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#18. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 17


MY
          

>I would like to add one of my main concerns about Canon, and
> that is lens mounts. Canon seems to change lens mounts
>almost as often as they change camera bodies. At least some
>of the newest Canon lenses that fit the 20D will not fit the
>300D or the 10D. So if you want the best Canon lens you
>must buy the latest Canon body. That is a very large
>turn-off for me. I wonder if the current crop of Canon
>lenses that work work with the 20D will work with the next
>version of Canon's D series bodies?


AFAIK all EF lens fit on to any EOS bodies. There are only 3 EF-S (ala Nikon DX) lenses on the market at the moment, and these only fit onto the 300D and 20D. Those 3 lenses not the best Canon lenses by a long long shot. Again, you are comparing cameras of different classes. The 20D has beautiful high ISO performance, zippy AF (better than D70's CAM900), MLU and optional vertical grip. D70 has spot meter, matrix meter takes into account color as well, and 1/500 flash sync. If you got the money, I'd say go for the Canon. But then again, for the price of a 20D body, I can get a D70 kit+SB800. Btw...I own a D70 and am loving it!!!

  

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bobj Silver Member Awarded for his multiple written contributions the the community Resources Charter MemberMon 29-Nov-04 01:10 AM
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#19. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 18


Sammamish, US
          

EF-S lenses are *not* "ala Nikon DX". EF-S lenses have a shorter focus disnatance and will not work at all on all but a handful of Canon bodies -- no film bodies at all, and not all digital either. On the other hand, Nikon DX lenses merely produce a smaller diameter image circle. Many will work just fine on any Nikon body over at portion of their focal range.

Bob Johnson
Earthbound Light
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
http://www.earthboundlight.com - lots of new images!!

Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Lots more new images!! - Weekly Phototips and Articles - RSS Feed

  

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BurgaFlippinMan Registered since 29th Jun 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 03:25 AM
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#21. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 19


MY
          

>EF-S lenses are *not* "ala Nikon DX". EF-S lenses have a
>shorter focus disnatance and will not work at all on all but
>a handful of Canon bodies -- no film bodies at all, and not
>all digital either. On the other hand, Nikon DX lenses
>merely produce a smaller diameter image circle. Many will
>work just fine on any Nikon body over at portion of their
>focal range.
>
>Bob Johnson
>Earthbound Light
>Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
>http://www.earthboundlight.com
>- lots of new images!!

Yeah, I'm aware of that. What I wanted to indicate was that the basic design purpose is similiar to the DX lenses. That is IMO to restore the wide angles to the digital format and for "smaller and lighter" lenses due to a smaller diameter circle, not regarding compatiblity with bodies. Cheers.

  

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RTodd548 Registered since 26th Apr 2002Mon 29-Nov-04 12:19 PM
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#22. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Morganton, US
          

I have used both cameras in question. My D70 was stolen a couple weeks ago, and I am going to replace it with one of these two cameras. I find that the D70 fits my needs, and at a much reduced cost. I like the 20D, but the spotmeter makes the decision in favor of the D70. I wouldn't buy the 20D unless I could get L series lenses. They are both certainly capable cameras, and it still boils down to the photographer. Just some random thoughts to give another viewpoint.

Todd

  

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lisowskimf Registered since 21st Jun 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 01:16 PM
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#23. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 22



          

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all the great responses and comments. Let me start by saying I did realize I was comparing a Mid-Range to an entry level camera, which says something about the strenght of the D70. I should clearify a couple of points I have no lense that will fit eaither camera. Up until this purchase I have an old AE-1 with a 50mm prime and a 70-200 zoom lense. But I often find I wold like a wider viewing angle. I have held the D70 and really liked the fell (ergonomics) of this unit. I have not as of yet had a chance to try the 20D personally. Frame rate is not really important to me since either would be fine for my needs (yes more is always better but so is cheaper). My intended purposes as primarily portraits of family and friends and candid pictures of my (4 1/2 year old daughter). I usually do not go much beyond 11 x 16 (but the ablity to go beyond this would be nice). I like to shot architecture. I also have an interest in astophotography.

Now with this having been said. I really like the D70 and the SB-800 combo, which I could get for the same price as the 20D. I was also considering the 24-120 F3.5-5.6 G ED-IF Af-S VR Lens instead of the kit lens. I realize I would loss a bit at the wide end but this lense has a wider angle than I currently have, has VR and could be used if I ever upgraded body that is FF and not DX since it is not a DX lens(I worry that Nikon will someday go to a full frame sensor and all the glass I purchase would be obsolete). So now knowing all this info wwhat do you think is the right choice in camera systems.

One last question: I have read that the exposure of the D70 is usually conservative and requires compensation. How does the ablity of the Customers curves change the exposure and does it change it for both JPEG and Raw?

  

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Jim Pearce Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Mar 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 02:40 PM
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#24. "custom curves"
In response to Reply # 23


Grimsby, CA
          

Yes, a custom curve will change the way a RAW file displays. Yes, all things being equal, the D70 tends to underexpose everything except the highlights.

Jim

  

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lisowskimf Registered since 21st Jun 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 04:16 PM
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#25. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 23



          

I need to ask a few more questions.

1)Is Nikon Capture the only way to load custom curves on the D70?
2)Does Nikon Capture still have problems with Win Xp SP2?
3)NC intial cost $99. What does Nikon charge for updates?

  

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Alby Registered since 04th Apr 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 05:35 PM
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#27. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 23


Daly City, US
          

My friend recently bought a 20D as an upgrade to the 10D. Nobody has mentioned yet but one thing that really turns me off on the 20D is how loud the shutter is. I was chatting with a photographer relative who takes wedding portraits and owns a photo lab, and we were laughing about how loud the dang thing was and how embarrassing it would be to have that shutter clickity-clacking in a church during a ceremony.

You mentioned you are likely only going to be using it for family portraits and vacations and such. So the loud shutter is less of an inconvenience, but something to consider if you will be taking pictures in quiet places like churches, museums, and the like.

Oh yeah, one more thing, though the D70 is probably less durable than the 20D (which has a magnesium body to the D70's polycarbonate), it's also a whole lot lighter, which is nice on trips not to have to lug around a big brick.

  

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avm247 Moderator Awarded for high skills in documentary architecture and aviation photography Charter MemberMon 29-Nov-04 05:45 PM
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#28. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 27


Rancho Cordova, US
          

Nobody has mentioned yet but one thing that really turns me off on the 20D is how loud the shutter is.

My cousin with a 20D just mentioned this to me last night. Much louder than the 10D he had before.

Anthony

The Moderator Page and My Gallery
The important things in life are simple; the simple things are hard.

  

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witwald Registered since 08th Jan 2008Tue 30-Nov-04 08:52 AM
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#33. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 23


AU
          

>Up until this
>purchase I have an old AE-1 with a 50mm prime and a 70-200
>zoom lense. But I often find I wold like a wider viewing
>angle. I have held the D70 and really liked the feel
>(ergonomics) of this unit.

The ergonomics are an important part of the equation. The D70 certainly does seem easy to use with all the important controls falling easily to hand, much like the F100.

>My intended purposes as primarily portraits of family and friends
>and candid pictures of my (4 1/2 year old daughter).

I would opt for the kit lens with the D70, the 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5. Its widest aperture at portrait focal lengths (85-105mm in 35mm equivalent terms) may have a better chance of blurring the background and bringing out your subject. The equivalent lens on the 20D would be the 17-40mm f/4 lens, but this is much more expensive the the Nikon 18-70mm. For the D70, the Nikon 17-55mm f/2.8 lens would be a good choice, as it would be both faster and able to blur the background quite nicely for portraits. But this is much more expensive than the Canon 17-40mm. A friend of mine uses that lens on his 10D, but found it too short for portraits, and went for the Canon 24-70mm f/2.8 lens, which I think is more expensive than the Nikon 17-55mm.

>I also have an interest in astophotography.

Not sure how the D70 handles this. The 20D might be superior in this regard.

>Now with this having been said. I really like the D70 and
>the SB-800 combo, which I could get for the same price as
>the 20D.

Having a good flash unit is very important with a 4.5 year old. Lots of photos are taken indoors (e.g. birthday parties, Christmas, etc). A 20D without an external flash would not be a good choice.

>I was also considering the 24-120 F3.5-5.6 G ED-IF
>Af-S VR Lens instead of the kit lens. I realize I would
>loss a bit at the wide end but this lense has a wider angle
>than I currently have, has VR and could be used if I ever
>upgraded body that is FF and not DX since it is not a DX
>lens(I worry that Nikon will someday go to a full frame
>sensor and all the glass I purchase would be obsolete).

A Nikon full-frame DSLR would likely be extremely expensive. Just take a look at the Canon 1Ds Mk2 as an example. Sure, prices might come down in a few years, but I think that it might be better to go for the Nikon 18-70mm lens in the interim. You'll take a lot of photos with the lens before a full-frame body becomes more affordable. The 18-70mm lens might also produce better quality images when shot in the f/4 to f/5.6 than the 24-120mm. Although the VR is a handy feature, with moving subjects (aka children), use of slower shutter speeds still produces blurred subjects.

>So now knowing all this info what do you think is the right
>choice in camera systems.

My personal leaning would be to wait for the D100's replacement. Get the SB-800 and the 17-55mm f/2.8 lens. I think that it is a more manageable combo than a 20D with 24-70 f/2.8 lens and 580EF speedlite. Of course, getting the D70 now with that kit would give you lots of photo opportunities, and you could probably sell your D70 without too much bother and trade-up if you felt the need.

The one area where Nikon seem to have a gap is the 70-200mm f/4 lens, which Canon have available but Nikon don't. The 70-200mm f/4 lens is reasonably compact, while still being quite fast (aperturewise) and able to blur the backgrounds. The 70-200mm f/2.8 class of lenses are nice, but they are big, heavy and expensive.

--
Witold.

  

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EMTJeepers Registered since 28th Aug 2002Tue 30-Nov-04 06:45 PM
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#40. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 23


Montague, US
          

>I usually do not go much beyond 11 x 16 (but the ablity to go beyond
>this would be nice).

I've seen 16x20's can't tell the diffence between it and a film 16x20.

>I also have an interest in astophotography.

I've been experimenting with this, since getting a telescope for my birthday.(my wife is so great to me). So far, I have not noticed any extra noise with longer exposures. Havn't gotten into the minutes of exposure yet though. However, it does have Noise Reduction which is supposed to help in this aspect.

Again, this is all referencing my D70.

"Footprints on the sands of time are not made by sitting down"
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EMTJeepers

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jvenard Registered since 10th Oct 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 05:33 PM
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#26. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Mesa, US
          


>Raw + JPEG(fine, normal) separate file

I just got back from a NYC tour and the last day I shoy in RAW+Basic mode and I had two photos NEF and JPG. So unless I am misunderstanding your 20D point, I think they both do this. Also, the B&W point is a nice one. I had that capability on the Coolpix 5700, but I have found that I can do more with a color photo and Photoshop CS.

My 2 cents

  

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slele Registered since 25th Mar 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 05:47 PM
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#29. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 26


Cambridge, US
          

I think the point is that you have the option of saving JPEG in basic or normal mode on 20D. D70 saves only basic JPEGs.

  

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lisowskimf Registered since 21st Jun 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 07:05 PM
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#31. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 29



          

>I think the point is that you have the option of saving JPEG
>in basic or normal mode on 20D. D70 saves only basic JPEGs.

Yes. This was my intent.

  

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cameraguy21773 Registered since 08th Sep 2004Mon 29-Nov-04 05:54 PM
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#30. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Germantown, US
          

The D70 does nearly everything it does very expertly and, by all accounts, so does the 20D. I think the swing for me was the metering system, flash metering, and the selection of quality hardware available. I, like you, was not a Nikon user prior to my purchase.

regards
Mike Parker
Frederick, MD

regards
Mike Parker
Frederick, MD

Take Only Pictures, Leave Only Footprints

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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el sarge Registered since 24th Oct 2004Tue 30-Nov-04 12:11 PM
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#34. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


Fort Collins, US
          

while it sounds bizarre that canon forgoed spot-metering on the 20D (if that's true), spot-metering was not always around and people still managed to take great images (with a little extra work).

btw, according to Popular Photography's test, the D70 spot meter covers 5%, not the claimed 1%.

also, according to the Canon website, the 20D offers: Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point).
not sure if that's a weird way of saying movable spot meter.

Sarge.


Sarge

  

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Ant Registered since 14th Sep 2004Tue 30-Nov-04 12:43 PM
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#35. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 34


Luton., GB
          

>>btw, according to Popular Photography's test, the D70 spot meter covers 5%, not the claimed 1%

I very much doubt that. The 1% covers 2.3mm of the frame. If, as popular photography suggests, that the actual figure is 5% then that would make it 11.5mm...which is far more than centre weighted set to 6mm. I've used both spot and 6mm centre weighted, and spot is definitely more narrow than 6mm centre weighted.

What's more likely: That Popular Photography got their test wrong or that Nikon are lying?

  

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el sarge Registered since 24th Oct 2004Tue 30-Nov-04 04:57 PM
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#39. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 35


Fort Collins, US
          


>What's more likely: That Popular Photography got their test
>wrong or that Nikon are lying?


the point is not whether pop photo or nikon is lying.

if one really cared (and i don't, re this topic), you'd find that pop photo publishes its methodology while i haven't come across nikon data. so the discrepancies could be caused by the methodologies.

Sarge.


Sarge

  

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jonkun227 Registered since 20th Apr 2004Wed 01-Dec-04 04:34 AM
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#41. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 39


Salt Lake City, US
          

Popular Photography: 97% ads, 3% content.

If you watch popphoto over the years you'll notice a distinct trend with advertisement purchasing and positive reviews. Thus their highly favorable reviews of Phoenix lenses, for instance.

Popphoto is nice for reading Monte Zucker's articles, hearing about new technologies, and seeing ads for all the retailers. It's not a source for final-word, gospel-truth facts.


- Jon

_____________________

As I sat there watching the light change from red, to green, to yellow, and back to red again, I wondered what life was all about. Was it really just a lot of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seems that way

  

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longfang Registered since 29th Sep 2002Tue 30-Nov-04 02:13 PM
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#36. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 34


Kuala Lumpur, MY
          

>while it sounds bizarre that canon forgoed spot-metering on
>the 20D (if that's true), spot-metering was not always
>around and people still managed to take great images (with a
>little extra work).
>
>btw, according to Popular Photography's
>test,
>the D70 spot meter covers 5%, not the claimed 1%.
>
>also, according to the Canon
>website,
>the 20D offers: Evaluative metering (linkable to any
>AF point)
.
>not sure if that's a weird way of saying movable spot meter.
>
>Sarge.

Canon Evaluative metering is supposed to be the equivalent of matrix metering. What they mean by linked to any AF point, is that the evaluative metering will place special emphasis on the focus point selected, since it assumes that is your main subject.

In place of spot metering, the 20D has partial metering, which covers a cross shaped area (as opposed to a circle) of about 9%

  

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mark_h37 Registered since 22nd Nov 2004Tue 30-Nov-04 02:26 PM
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#37. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 0


New Port Richey, US
          

I just bought the D70 2 weeks ago after looking at the same two cameras as my top choices. Probably the 2 things that made my final decision were the feel of the camera in the hand and the loud shutter noise of the 20D. If you are planning on doing any wildlife photography, I think that the 20D's noisy shutter would be a problem. In two weeks I have shot around 1000 pictures with the D70 and have been very pleased with it.

  

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bikinchris Silver Member Nikonian since 24th Sep 2004Wed 01-Dec-04 08:00 PM
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#42. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 37


Broussard, US
          

I don't think anyone has weighed in on this test between the two cameras:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page25.asp


Chris
Broussard, LA
http://www.eaglewheel.us/Photo%20Index.htm
My Nikonians Gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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rleibfreid Registered since 24th Feb 2002Thu 02-Dec-04 04:20 PM
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#43. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 42


Arlington, US
          

I had posted the link to that comparison a few weeks ago, I think it was titled to the effect that the D70 had held up pretty well.

Resolution isn't the issue here as others have said. There isn't a huge jump between the two cameras.

One of my friends has the 20D with the 17-95mm EF-S lens (the good kit lens). I have used it enough to feel like I've got a good idea of its strengths and weaknesses.

First, I hate the ergonomics and controls. Canon is lousy at that. D70 wins hands down there. The viewfinder in the Canon is much larger and easier to see out of. Winner, Canon. Autofocus seems to work much better and have more areas of focus with the Canon. Winner, Canon. The dynamic range of the EOS-20D sensor is phenomenal. It far exceeds the range of the D70. Winner, Canon. Metering is important, and so is spot metering but I feel less so for digital. The histogram's instant feedback and the highlights view helps to replace all the zone system stuff we all know and love. Nikon does however win on the metering front.

So to recap, I feel that in most of the areas you end up seeing people gripe about the D70, the Canon does a little better - mainly the viewfinder, focus, and latitude. It is poorer for metering and operator control.

I think anyone who is looking to buy a DSLR right now would be doing themselves a favor to wait for the D100 replacement. Get on the list at a camera shop with a 14 day return policy the day Nikon releases the press announcement. That's what I did for the D70, and it will assure you one of the first units so you won't be waiting forever.

  

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matthew saville Registered since 23rd Mar 2004Fri 03-Dec-04 08:36 AM
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#44. "RE: D70 vs 20D Point counter Point"
In response to Reply # 43


Irvine, US
          

Just as a side note- after switching from point and shoot to DSLR, I can't imagine why in the blue blazes they would have a black and white option. Channel mixing is just too strong an argument. Maybe I'm over reacting but it just seems like quite a "mickey mouse" feature after getting used to living without it.

Now on to business: The 20D fairly trounces the D70 becuase of its 5 FPS and 9 AF points as well as MLU. And real photograpers carry a sekonic light meter anyways. Okay I'm kidding; I don't see why Canon gave themselves this crutch when they had so much going for themselves with the other features. But my point is that the 20D and D70 are in different leagues.

So, I'd either wait for the D200(?) or get the 20D, as far as features are concerned. However if price is anything close to a big issue, then get the D70 without question. Later you'll thank yourself, when instead of finally crawling out of debt you find you've saved up for a sweet lens or pod... (which by the way will be around LONG after a handful of DSLR bodies have passed away!)

Cheers!
-matt-

It's not what you look at, it's what you see.

  

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