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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Fri 17-Dec-10 07:48 PM
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"Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""


US
          

Hi:

According to Thom Hogan Ė December 17th Update:

ďAlthough I don't point to beta versions of products, in the last week I've received beta releases of about six other software products of significance to Nikon users, so we're getting a little unexpected end-of-year surge in development.Ē

Iíll look into Capture NX3, if it ever comes out, but I doubt it. LR3 is tops. I can upload straight to SmugMug, from LR3, and have the library synchronized. If I delete, add, or change a photo, the SmugMug gallaries are automatically updated. I seriously doubt that NX3 will have that feature, which is turning into the most important feature in LR. However, Iíll keep an open mind. I was one of the first adopters of NX1, btw.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 17-Dec-10 07:54 PM
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#1. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 17-Dec-10 08:48 PM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

>Iíll look into Capture NX3, if it ever comes out, but I doubt
>it. LR3 is tops. I can upload straight to SmugMug, from LR3,
>and have the library synchronized. If I delete, add, or
>change a photo, the SmugMug gallaries are automatically
>updated. I seriously doubt that NX3 will have that feature,
>which is turning into the most important feature in LR.
>However, Iíll keep an open mind. I was one of the first
>adopters of NX1, btw.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Hektor
>

Funny, I think of Capture NX as a RAW convertor/image editor, not a file manager. I don't use SmugMug, so that capability means nothing to me.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Fri 17-Dec-10 08:06 PM
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#2. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

Hi Mick:

I use SmugMug. However, LR3 has the same features for Flickr, Picassa, and others.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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rbsandor Gold Member Nikonian since 29th Aug 2007Wed 22-Dec-10 04:44 PM
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#3. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 0


Denver, US
          

I really don't understand why the fact that you like software brand A and don't like software brand B warrants a post. Good for you on both counts. Mods, please feel free to remove if I have violated the code of conduct. Richard

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Thu 23-Dec-10 05:44 PM
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#4. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 0
Thu 23-Dec-10 05:45 PM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

>According to < Thom Hogan Ė December 17th[br />>Update]:

If this leads to a new version (new features and/or bug fixes) of Capture NX2 I'll be very happy. I am getting a lot of mileage from this tool.

Peter

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Thu 23-Dec-10 08:55 PM
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#5. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 4
Thu 23-Dec-10 08:59 PM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Peter:


I really hope that NX3 is being beta tested. Nik Software Viveza is the shell that NX is built on. What is interesting is that now that Nik upgraded all their plugins to 64-bit, there might be a 64-bit NX. Nik software is partly owned by Nikon.

I have all the Nik plugins and I qualify for LR, CS5, and even Aperture, if I had an Apple computer. Iím sure that if NX will be able to use the Nik plugins and not just Color Efex, I will qualify for those as well. However, it will not be LR that will prevent me from switching to NX, but Photoshop CS5. I love that program, the interface, it is very powerful, and my favorite program. I can go as deep as I want with it Ė the sky is the limit Ė but I do not have to, because all my plugins. The only problem is the monster sized files coming out of CS5. On the other hand, since Iím changing my shooting philosophy, CS5 is becoming that much more important. I know that you can call CS5 from NX in TIFF format, just like LR. LR and CS5 work very well together. What's the point then?

I will keep an open mind regarding NX, though.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 24-Dec-10 12:09 AM
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#6. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 5


San Jose, US
          

Hector I haven't seen one of your posts in awhile. I use CS5 and NX2 together, I do not use LR, it has too many limitations for me. CNX2's main benefit is it is the absolute best NEF RAW converter, even Thom says this. So I am sure once CNX whatever is released, based upon some of the other posts here, we will see big improvements that will make it even better. I use CS5 for whatever CNX2 can't do, but most of those things are not photo related. So yes you should keep you mind open and lets see what we get. I expect the very least will be 64 bit and I also expect CNX3 will be able to use all NIK plug ins.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Fri 24-Dec-10 04:14 AM
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#7. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 6
Fri 24-Dec-10 04:20 AM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Bob:

Nice to talk to you again. Iíve been around, but very busy doing a lot of things with photography.

The last couple of shoots Iíve used NX as the raw converter since I can save the files in NEF/NRW format. I then send the NEF files straight to LR, to select the photos, set the blacks and whites, and then CS5 takes over with all the plugins and the CS5 tools. The only problem has been the size of the files coming out of CS5. I have to flatten the layers otherwise I come out with 350 MB files (~ 1GB for 3 photos) Ė compressed or 250 MB as a smart object (TIFF format.) With the flattened image and TIFF 16-bit, it is a 70 MB file. However, it is academic since I very seldom go back to redo a photo. If I do, all I have to do is to start with the raw file, again.

I have also changed my photo philosophy. Iíve been a tourist with a camera Ė travel photography. From now on, I will keep very few photos from a shoot (4-7 max,) but really worked on them with post-processing. That is why CS5 is becoming more critical. Today, I reorganized my photo site: www.hektorsphotos.com. The top link row is going to be my area of emphasis from now on. Furthermore, most of the photos already there, are going to be replaced Ė they are fillers now.

I will keep an open mind regarding the next NX; I have no idea what they are going to be offering. Even if I use NX, the file size coming out of CS5 is the same.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 24-Dec-10 05:01 AM
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#8. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 7


San Jose, US
          

I assume you meant to say you send TIFF's to LR because if you send NEF's none of what you did in NX2 will be seen. Why are you not doing all you can in NX2 before you move to Adobe? I use CS5 when I am blending images, when I am doing a Pano or doing prospective corrections or if I need massive cloning, adding a copyright signature or adding canvas,otherwise everything else is so much faster in NX2 and the file is smaller. The Auto Correction brush in CNX2 is context aware and often it does a better job than Adobe, except for very large areas or where you need to clone and not just make something disappear. CS5 is very powerful, but that power is often not needed. But when it is needed, there is nothing that comes close, and that is why I never adopted LR.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Fri 24-Dec-10 06:06 AM
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#9. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 8
Fri 24-Dec-10 06:07 AM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Bob:

Yes, you are right; LR cannot see the changes made in NX. I just convert the NEF photos in NX and send them over to LR in NEF format, without doing anything to them. There are many reasons for this:

1. LR is 64-bit.
2. With all my plugins running in 64-bit, I only use 64-bit CS5.
3. LR is my library manager. I select the photos there.
4. I publish directly to SmugMug from LR, which keeps the libraries synchronized.
5. I print from LR, which works great.
6. LR stacks the photos coming from CS5. In other words, it collapses the NEF and TIFF photo by placing one on top of the other and I can go several photos deep. I color code them: blue (TIFF,) Red (RAW,) green (HDR,) yellow (the same TIFF photo with a frame.) It keeps everything very neat. I only see the top one, which is usually the Tiff one. It only publishes to SmugMug the top photo.

By processing less number of photos per shoot, I will be able to keep the CS layers, as long as needed. When done, I will flatten the file.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 24-Dec-10 07:30 AM
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#10. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 9


San Jose, US
          

Hektor sounds like you have something that works for you so stick with it.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Bald Eagle Registered since 24th Dec 2008Sat 25-Dec-10 06:43 PM
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#13. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 9


US
          

Merry Christmas everyone! I don't want to open a can of worms but I have NX2 and have not worked on enough images to know: can you see changes that you might make in NX2, then work on the NEF file in Lightroom, in the final print? Are you saying that NX2 can make changes that Adobe raw processors can't in the final print? Are they subtle, would a portrait client notice? I make my living from the print not the digital file. If I can enhance the print I will incorporate NX2 in my workflow. Thanks- I love making a better product.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 26-Dec-10 07:08 AM
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#15. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 13
Sun 26-Dec-10 07:13 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

The only way to can see changes you make in NX2 in any Adobe product is to use the Open with command in CNX2 which sends a 16 bit TIFF to your product of choice. The difference between Adobe and CNX2 is that CNX2 can see all of the original camera settings and change them after the fact and Adobe cannot. Adobe uses approximations that simulate settings in the NEF but it really does not know anything about them, so things like ADL, Picture conrols, etc set in the camera are useless in an Adobe product. So if you want to start out with a NEF that looks exactly like what you saw in the camera monitor CNX2 is the only way to do that. In addition if you are working on single images it is much easier to process an image in CNx2 than Adobe as you do not need to make masks, and ALL steps are saved right in the NEF and are completely redoable at any time. Also the files are much smaller. So when you are all done in CNX2,you just move a TIFF to Adobe to do things like pano.s, merging of multiple images, etc. But in general there is no need to use Adobe products at all. If you add NIK Filters for CNX2 it is even more powerful and those filters are fully integrated and can be used selectively just like everything else in CNX2.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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jsmith1642 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Jul 2010Sun 26-Dec-10 06:07 PM
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#17. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 15


US
          

I shoot everything in RAW with JPG in Slot2 of DX and use Nik Suite, LR & CS5. So, having all those apps and plugs, aside from the cost and additional step(s) in workflow, am I correct in understanding the consensus would be for me to use CNX2 for front end raw conversion and broader adjustments in CNX2, DAM and cataloging in LR, and fine-tune adjustments/blends/panos/etc. in CS5?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 26-Dec-10 11:43 PM
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#20. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 17


San Jose, US
          

I don't know if you will find consensus, but as I said if you want to start out with exactly what you see on the camera monitor CNX2 is the only way. I never liked LR, and already had Photoshop, so I saw no reason to buy LR as I have not had a need for catalogue SW so far. I only shoot RAW and before I moved to CNX2, I used Photoshop exclusively. I considered myself a very advanced user, and was comfortable with all features including using LAB space and things like apply image to get the most out of my images. I had no problems making complex masks, extracting images, or combining images either. Yet I realized that it was so much easier to work in CNX2 to get even better results in less time except for the things CS5 extended can do that CNX2 cannot. In general I do ALL of my RAW processing in CNX2. 98% of the work I have no need for CS5. You are working in 16 bits for your entire edit and it is all in the NEF file. No need for smart layers, mask creation, etc as CNX2 makes this transparent to the user. In fact I usually only use CS5 to process for web and add a signature. I save my processed NEF which includes all edit steps, as there are no side cars, and have gone back at future dates and either added new edits which can be saved in the same file as new versions or to redo an edit I did before because I found a better way to do it. I have no paid plug ins for Photoshop and only have the NIK filters for CNX2. So if you have an extensive library of plug ins for Photoshop, you might use Photoshop more than I do. But U technology is so easy and NIK filters are so well integrated, that my bet is you too will find less and less need for Photoshop. But you must understand that I work on one image at a time, though you can apply edits to multiple images using batches, but right now batch processing is faster in photoshop than CNX2, but that should change once a 64 bit version of CNX is releaased.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sat 25-Dec-10 06:57 PM
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#14. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 9


Paignton, GB
          

>Yes, you are right; LR cannot see the changes made in NX. I
>just convert the NEF photos in NX and send them over to LR in
>NEF format, without doing anything to them.

I'm probably missing something, but why not just open the NEF's in Lightroom? What is NX adding to your workflow?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 26-Dec-10 07:10 AM
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#16. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 14


San Jose, US
          

Brian I am with you. That is why I asked Hector if he meant that he was moving TIFF's to LR as I don't get what he gains either.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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cchoc Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, most notably in Landscape Photography Charter MemberSun 26-Dec-10 06:23 PM
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#18. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 16


Marietta, US
          

Maybe he's just using NX to get data from the camera/card onto the PC and then imports from there into LR?

Charlie...
stalking light

Nikonians Team Member

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Sun 26-Dec-10 07:35 PM
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#19. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 18


US
          

Hi Everyone:

I just popped in for a few minutes and this thread is taking on a life of its own. I do not have the time to give a proper response until later on tonight or even tomorrow. Sorry about that.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 27-Dec-10 03:03 AM
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#21. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 19


US
          

Hi:

I kept my comments in my previous messages very general because I did want to go off-topic or turn this thread into a LR VS NX one. Keeping with those principles in mind, I will try to be as brief as possible.

As I stated before, I only used my new method of converting the RAW files with NX, into NEF format, in my last two shoots and both involved using the 24 1.4 lens, because LR does not have the 24 1.4 lens profile, yet.

When LR imports the file into the library, ACR does the RAW conversion. When you first open any of the files, the first thing you get is the embedded JPEG image while it ďloadsĒ the image. Then, the image changes to the NEF LR look. However, when opening the files converted with NX for the first time, saving them into the LR folder in NEF format Ė uncompressed Ė, the images opened instantly without going through the JPEG preview. In other words, LR did not do the conversion.

Before taking the 24 1.4 to the testing location, The Huntington Library, in order to compare the results with other shoots with the same camera and different lenses, at the same location, I did take the 24mm to the Wayfarers Chapel and shot ~ 40 images. I run two parallels tests using the methods I described above, and the one using NX as the RAW converter, yielded the best results Ė the images were sharper or crisper. That is the method I used with the photos I shot at The Huntington. Is this the preferred method? I simply do not know, because I only used it twice.

I will keep an open mind regarding a probable future NX3, as stated before. I do the bulk of my post processing using the Nik Software plugins, which I go through CS5. If these plugins will be available with NX3, then I will look into it.

I have NX 2.2.6 with the Nik Color Efex for NX. When I got the Nik Software bundle, the one for Aperture, LR, and Photoshop, I also got a second key number for Color Efex for NX. Therefore, it is a good guess to conclude that if Nik also develops the remaining Nik Software programs as NX plugins, I might be able to use them with my present key numbers. I prefer using Nik Software with NX, because if I have to start all over again, my main work would already be done and it is not like starting from scratch. I do flatten the files coming out of CS5 to keep the file size at a reasonable level.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 27-Dec-10 06:05 AM
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#22. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 21


San Jose, US
          

Hector you seem to have found an interesting anomaly as I have never heard anyone mention this before. So if I understand you correctly you seem to have found a way to force LR to accept CNX2 converted NEF files that include auto lens correction. I must admit i don't understand how this happens, based upon what I understand about how NEF data is stored, but since I never tried it, I can provide no comment but to accept your assertion.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 27-Dec-10 07:10 AM
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#24. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 22


US
          

Hi Bob:

Maybe I phrased my conclusions wrongly. What I should have said was that the photos converted by LR were less sharp than the ones with NX. In other words, by not finding the 24G lens profile, it might have defaulted to a profile that made the photos worse.

I was really worried about the test run because the 24G has issues, like miss-focusing. If the lens miss-focus slightly, the photos will appear to be not sharp. I just wanted to recreate the same shooting conditions and post-processing I did previously at The Huntington with other lenses.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Mon 27-Dec-10 06:46 AM
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#23. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 21


Paignton, GB
          

>However, when opening the files converted with NX for the
>first time, saving them into the LR folder in NEF format Ė
>uncompressed Ė the images opened instantly without going through
>the JPEG preview. In other words, LR did not do the conversion.

I don't understand this. A NEF file must go through RAW conversion in order to be rendered and edited by Lightroom. Is it possible that Lightroom is only opening the embedded full-resolution JPEG, rather than the edited NEF?

But like Bob I don't use this program or workflow, so it's hard to comment further.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 27-Dec-10 09:11 AM
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#25. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 23


US
          

Brian:

I know the difference of a JPEG embedded file and the corresponding NEF image and what I saw was the NEF image.

I really do not know if there is a NEF-RAW conversion to apply changes to a photo. You might be right, but I doubt it. A computer does not work in NEF, Word, PDF, or any other type of formats. Those formats are high level representation of the bits, bytes, 0ís, and 1ís that the computer has stored in its physical files. LR has a program that interprets the physical data and presents to the screen as a photo, in NEF format. Why it should do a RAW conversion to apply changes when the file that is needed is already there.

Non-Destructive editing only means that there is a second physical file, where the changes are made. The LR program reads both files and presents the combined version, on the screen, in NEF format. Furthermore, why should we care? It is like writing a document in Word and worrying how the computer stores the information in its physical files. That process should be transparent to us.

What Bob is saying is different. He is saying that LR cannot get to all the information stored in the RAW files like NX can. Some of data might be hidden, encrypted, LR might not have the true file structure (just a generic one,) etc. NX knows where all the secrets lie in the physical file.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Mon 27-Dec-10 09:44 AM
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#26. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 25
Mon 27-Dec-10 10:21 AM by briantilley

Paignton, GB
          

>LR has a program that interprets the physical
>data and presents to the screen as a photo, in NEF format.

This might be semantics, but that's my point - Lightroom doesn't "present the photo in NEF format".

>Why it should do a RAW conversion to apply changes when the
>file that is needed is already there?

Because it has to. No software can display a RAW image, from any camera. The RAW data (in this case, a NEF) is first converted so that it can be worked with further. Lightroom has an element (small "e"...!) which does that, like ACR does for Photoshop.

RAW data is just that - you can't see it as an image on screen

>What Bob is saying is different.

I think Bob and I have the same problem - like him, I'm not clear how you've succeeded in getting Lightroom to open a NEF, that has previously been edited and re-saved by NX, and see the effect of the NX edit.

Edited to add...

In case you're wondering, I'm interested in this topic because I've been thinking about adding Lightroom to my workflow. So far, I have discounted it because I understood that it could not see edits in NEF's made by Capture NX2 or View NX2. If what you are saying proves to be correct, I may be able to re-consider

Can anyone else with decent Lightroom experience clarify this for us?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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cchoc Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, most notably in Landscape Photography Charter MemberTue 28-Dec-10 06:55 PM
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#33. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 26


Marietta, US
          

I have both CNX2 and LR3. I did a quick test where I made changes to an nef that was already in my LR3 catalog by opening it outside of LR and making changes to the nef, saving it in CNX2, and then starting LR. I did not see any of the CNX2 changes in LR. I read the metadata from disk in LR and still din't see any CNX2 changes. I removed the nef from my catalog and then reimported it to LR; when I did that I saw the CNX2 changes briefly when LR showed the jpeg preview, but it reverted back to the image with no CNX2 changes.

I still do not believe that LR can read the CNX2 stored changes in the nef, it can only see the changes in the jpeg preview that is stored in the nef. If Nikon would modify CNX2 to use xmp instead of their proprietary method, then CNX2 and LR could interoperate seamlessly. I will most likely win the lottery just before that happens.

I have the most current versions of CNX2 and Lightroom, and did the test on OS/X 10.6.5.

Charlie...
stalking light

Nikonians Team Member

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Tue 28-Dec-10 07:14 PM
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#34. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 33
Tue 28-Dec-10 07:15 PM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

Frankly, I hope CNX never starts using sidecar files and that Adobe would stop. It is a recipie for losing data.

I use a variety of apps to manage and edit images: CNX, View NX, Photo Mechanic, Photomatix, Portrait Professional, Oloeno PE, Nik, Imagnomic and OnOne plug-ins and standalones, as well as PS CS4. Tried LR and ACR but saw no advantage for me.

All of those work great together except the Adobe apps which convert image data to Adobe "standards" the expect everthing else to follow suit.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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nightcat Registered since 05th Mar 2006Wed 29-Dec-10 03:25 PM
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#41. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 33


LaCrosse,WI, US
          

"If Nikon would modify CNX2 to use xmp instead of their proprietary method, then CNX2 and LR could interoperate seamlessly."

I keep seeing statements like this and they simply are not true. The data that is in sidecars or stored in NEF's by CNX are variable values, which are meaningless without the correct program to use them. As an example, if X=7, what is y? It can't be solved without knowing the equation. How is LR supposed to know what ADL HIGH means? How is CNX2 supposed to know what Clarity 67 means? In order for Nikon products and Adobe products to interoperate seamlessly, they would have to share copyrighted programming. Some of the copyrights are owned by third parties and are only licenced by the first party. So Nikon and Adobe couldn't go open source, even if they wanted to.

I don't mean to pick on anyone. This is just my futile attempt to correct this persistent misinformation.

Kraig

"The wisest follow their own directions" -Euripides
"I thought there would be more elephants" -C. Columbus

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Wed 29-Dec-10 03:39 PM
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#42. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 41


Tacoma, US
          

Thanks, Craig. That clarifies the data format issues.

However, I still don't like sidecar files beacuse there is always the possibility that they get "dettached" from the image file. Murphy's law being what it is, I prefer to minimize the possibility.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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cchoc Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, most notably in Landscape Photography Charter MemberWed 29-Dec-10 03:59 PM
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#43. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 41
Wed 29-Dec-10 05:53 PM by cchoc

Marietta, US
          

Sorry I overgeneralized, and I don't think you are picking on anyone. You did leave out the part of my quote where I said I would win the lottery before Nikon and Adobe would interoperate, though.

The fact remains that xmp is a documented format, Nikon's is not. Even EXIF contains variables in key:value pairs, but the possible values are defined in the specification which is open to the public. Open specifications and open source are not the same thing.

Charlie...
stalking light

Nikonians Team Member

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 29-Dec-10 05:25 PM
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#44. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 33


San Jose, US
          

Charlie your results do not surprise me, as that is the way i would expect it to work. As for sidecars, they are one of the reasons I prefer CNX2 over Adobe. I want all my data in one file.

Also Adobe made the choice not to use Nikon's available kit which would allow them to read all the maker data, and all camera manufacturers use the Maker Data area in their equivalent to NEFs, so it is not only Nikon. So for Adobe to be able to be used with all cameras they had the choice to use Camera Maker Data and pay the price or try to approximate it using their own standard, and they chose the latter, which from a cost and difficulty view was probably the right choice for them. Adobe has been doing their SW for over 20 years and are more or less the standard, but that does not make them the best RAW processor for your Nikon.

When you make the choice to use Adobe instead of the camera makers provided SW, you are making a conscious or maybe unconscious choice to forgo next gen camera settings and controls on your camera.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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russg Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Nov 2007Thu 30-Dec-10 02:18 AM
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#46. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 44


Phoenix, US
          

>Charlie your results do not surprise me, as that is the way i
>would expect it to work. As for sidecars, they are one of the
>reasons I prefer CNX2 over Adobe. I want all my data in one
>file.
>

There are a number of reasons I choose to use CNX2 as my raw converter and primary editor. But the reason you stated above is certainly one of the most significant reasons for me, and I truly believe that most casual users of CNX2 don't really understand the importance of this feature. For me, it is impossible to overstate how huge the benefit is of having CNX2 save non-destructive edit steps right into the nef/nrw file.

1. As has been stated here and elsewhere in this thread, having edit information stored in sidecar files allows for the possiblilty of the editing info being lost if the xmp file is lost.

2. Having the edits saved in the nef file eliminates the need for having to save large and redundant tiff or psd files. The only time I have to use tiff files is if I'm using an external editor such as Photoshop or Photomatix in the workflow for an image. Fortunately, this only applies to a minority of my images.

3. Having the edits saved in the nef file allows me to have multiple versions of the image conveniently stored in a single file, while barely changing the file size. This means I can save in a single file, versions of the image that have a different crop or size, a different color space, or any other number of edits that would be unique to a particular version of my vision of the image. All of these alternate versions are easily accessible and they are all non-destructive to the original data.

4. CNX2 saves the jpg thumbnail in the nef file with the thumbnail showing the effects of the nef edits. Many viewing software programs such as Irfanview will then display the nef using the internal jpeg, which shows the effects of the edits.

5. And probably my favorite benefit of this feature is that it allows me to return to the nef file at anytime in the future and pick up exactly where I last left off in the editing process. Countless times I've finished editing an image, or so I've thought, only to find at some point later a flaw that I missed in the first editing session. Maybe all it needs is a quick click of the Auto Retouch Brush, maybe I want to slightly tweak the saturation. The point is that I don't have to start from scratch to improve my original work. I can simply add a new edit step or tweak an existing one and re-save the nef file. Being able to re-open the file and go directly to edit step #4 in an already existing list of 8 steps, alter that single step and leave all the other edits undisturbed is nothing short of huge in my book. Of course if I want to start from scratch, I also have the ability to remove all edits and versions by using the revert to original command if I wish.

It seems I always hear fans of CNX2 rave about the quality of the raw conversions, the ability to read the camera settings, U-Point technology, etc., which of course is all true and appreciated by me as well. But almost never do I hear users rave about the tremendous convenience of saving your time-consuming editing work in the original nef file and the benefits derived from same.

Russ

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 03:10 AM
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#47. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 46
Thu 30-Dec-10 03:19 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Russ I totally agree with you, Although Photoshop can save versions, it creates a very large file and it is still in sidecars. You are correct that having everything saved inside the NEF is a major benefit, that we don't talk about enough. If you are editing in Adobe you need to create smart layers and very huge files to come even close to the convenience of how CNX2 uses edit steps. Even then if you go back to the Adobe file, you may wind up redoing steps if you delete any layers rather than just hide them.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Antero52 Silver Member Awarded for his expertise in post-processing, being  consistently helpful and professional. Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009Thu 30-Dec-10 07:02 AM
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#48. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 47


Vantaa, FI
          

Bob, Russ and others

By no means am I discouraging anyone from using CNX2. In fact, I just bought (donated a small sum) to Rob Coleís Lightroom plugin called NxTooey, which facilitates shuffling of photos between LR and CNX2. But since the ability to keep all edits and versions in a single file appears to be important, I would like to mention that Adobe products can do that, provided that the NEF file is converted to DNG first. Lightroomís import process can even import one set of images to a primary location and convert them to DNG, and import the same set of images to a secondary location and keep them as NEF files. And to put thing into perspective, the space to store a 100MB file costs one cent (the difference between a US cent or Euro cent is irrelevant). But I do agree that large files cause longer backup times.

Finally, sidecars have the benefit over ďintegrated filesĒ (edits and raw data in a single file) that edits are easily transferred between computers because only the sidecars have to be transferred. Or, if photos are edited (without adding new photos to a folder), only the edited sidecars need to be backed up.

Best regards,
Antero

  

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nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 03:21 PM
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#49. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 48


Knoxville, US
          

A couple of thoughts...

Sidecars can be a good thing because you aren't modifying the original data at all. It also allows for a feature in Lightroom called virtual copy. You can do unlimited numbers of virtual copies in Lightroom to give the same effect of different processing characteristics without adding much disk space.

I've found that when I use Color Efex Pro in NX that View NX doesn't see the updated embedded jpeg correctly more often than not which is frustrating.

Even after all this time I still think NX2 *can* product a better result from raw (for initial conversion) but usually when done by someone who knows the tools well. The gap, though, has closed so much that it's hard for me to justify NX2 in my workflow anymore especially when I get all of Nik's tools and onOne and portrait professional, etc. that I need for weddings and portraits in PS.

I still hope, though, that NX3 will eventually make an appearance. I'd still use it for the images I want to absolutely maximize but I doubt I could ever use it for weddings and volume event work. Lightroom is just so much better oriented for that.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 05:39 PM
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#50. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 49


San Jose, US
          

I would never question a persons choice of processors, use whatever works for you, but CNX2 does NOT modify the original data. It stores ALL edits as a set of steps that are applied to the RAW data when the file is rendered and is totally reversible.I don't use LR so can't comment, but Photoshop does have some tools that are destructive and if you want to be able to reverse steps without doing something over you usually need to use smart layers. Your virtual copies sound just like versions in Photoshop and also versions in CNX2, except versions in CNX2 take up less space. For volume work I agree that Adobe batch processing is faster right now, but I can still do a better single edit faster in CNX2 than I can in Photoshop to get the same results. I also agree that right now Adobe has the edge on useful plug ins, and that may be enough to make LR a better choice for some. But in summary, you have not convinced me that Sidecars are better than a single NEF file.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 06:01 PM
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#52. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 50


Knoxville, US
          

Well, that wasn't exactly what I meant. What I meant to say (but poorly worded) is that Lightroom isn't touching the original file whereas NX is writing into the file and thus making changes to the file itself.

Essentially virtual copies in Lightroom are collections of sidecars. Sidecars are very tiny. And they can contain a surprising number of edits in them.

I wasn't wanting to convince you that sidecars are better. More that they can be pretty useful and can accomplish much of the same things that versions do in NX with a very small footprint.

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 06:08 PM
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#53. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 52


Tacoma, US
          

Except for having all of those small files running around and making sure you keep them all in the right place and in good shape. My preference is everything in one file and backup.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 06:21 PM
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#55. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 53


Knoxville, US
          

I can understand what you mean but if you're working within Lightroom all of that is managed for you. And if you have a decent backup software setup then they aren't a big deal either.

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 08:02 PM
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#56. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 55


Tacoma, US
          

True, but tht limits you to doing all of you file management in Lightroom. I'm not willing to rely on one method to do everything. It basically locks you in, even if there is somethign better to use. This can especially eb a proble, if you sue multiple comuters or systems.

But, to each their own, what works for me doesn't for others and vice versa. I am impressed with CNX and hope for it's continued development. I also have good fiends who swear by lightroom (but then again, they shoot Canon!)

Happy New Year!

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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cchoc Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, most notably in Landscape Photography Charter MemberThu 30-Dec-10 06:20 PM
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#54. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 50


Marietta, US
          

Bob,

I think what some people are saying is that, while CNX2 doesn't modify the image data, it does update the nef file and that an error in that process could corrupt the nef. I have never heard of that happening, but the sidecar approach doesn't touch the nef at all. If you mess up a sidecar file you just have to start over and redo the edits.

I don't think there is an overwhelming argument for or against either approach (unless you are trying to use CNX2 and LR together, of course ).

Charlie...
stalking light

Nikonians Team Member

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 10:56 PM
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#57. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 54


San Jose, US
          

Charlie:

I agree that a corrupt file is always possible when you write to it, but it has never happened to me using a NEF. My belief is you have a much greater chance of messing up a sidecar than a NEF, especially if you move files, as I have had that happen to me. Being paranoid as I am, I always ingest my NEF's in two locations, one on a drive devoted to all my photos, which I backup to a third drive on a regular basis and the copy to another drive on which I only store original unprocessed NEF's which are never touched. When I work on the original ingested NEF I store the processed NEF to another file I keep for processed images. Any future edits on the NEF are always done on the processed image. So as a minimum I always have at least 3 copies of the original unprocessed NEF and 2 copies of Processed NEFs. I used a similar system when I used Photoshop as my main processor. But since Adobe files are much larger, my system would take up a lot more space on the HD than it would using NEF's.

The only reason I responded to your other post is to correct any miconception that the RAW file was being modified, as some do not know that it is never touched.

Again I think this is a preference issue. If you are using Adobe, you have no choice unless you adopt DNG. For CNX2 users, you have the choice of modifying the original or a copy and then saving all your edits in one file. BTW when Adobe was my main processor, I NEVER EVER worked on an original file, always a copy.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 30-Dec-10 05:43 PM
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#51. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 48


San Jose, US
          

Antero DNG in place of NEF has no advantages that I can see. It is a way for Adobe users to work around the NEF problems when using Adobe products but you lose to much in the process. I know ROBP has tried it and found it lacking.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Fri 31-Dec-10 08:55 PM
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#60. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 51


Gainesville, US
          

Bob B. (robsb) has stated the issue correctly, as I see it. Although I prefer CNX2 for processing most images, a few of them seem to have characteristics that permit easier processing in Adobe Camera Raw (maybe only for me). This led me to thoroughly investigate the use of DNG in hopes of finding a way to use ACR and still preserve ALL of the desirable traits of Nikon-centric NEF processing. I could not find such a methodology, so I have elected to just accept the limitations of standard ACR/CS5 processing when "necessary" and put up with its huge files. Interposing DNG in the process just introduced another activity without any benefit given that I always retain my NEF files and I use Smart Objects in CS5. Like Bob, I consider sidecar files another hassle to be avoided, so I set the option to save XMP data in the image file when using CS5.

To accommodate the occasional need for ACR/CS5, I developed a "Best Practice" (again, maybe only for me). I use Preferences in CNX2 to set Adobe Bridge as the application to which NEF files are sent when I select "Open With" in CNX2. Bridge then receives the resulting TIF file with all of the in-camera goodies and subsequent RAW processing done by CNX2 "baked-in". Bridge will open that TIF file in ACR so I can benefit from its use and then pass the file to CS5.

This thread has produced some very interesting commentary; especially noteworthy was Jason Odell's article referenced by Jon (JonK) in his response #58.

Now, what I'd like to see is a new post by one of the CNX2 gurus (hint to Bob B.) telling us their generalized processing steps; sort of a "CNX2 Editing Tips" thing. I'd think that there might be two sets of tips; one for CNX2 processing, only, saying something like 1) set White Balance, 2) set Black and White points, 3) set Picture Control, 4, adjust Noise reductionÖ or whatever magic they perform to get those beautiful final images, and another set for ACR/CS5 processing (here's where my "Best Practice" suggestion could be tom apart or amplified).

Anyway, thanks to all contributors to this thread, I've found it to be informative.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sat 01-Jan-11 02:26 AM
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#61. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 60


San Jose, US
          

Rob you taught me something tonight. I never considered opening my moved TIFF's to Bridge so that they would open in ACR, maybe because I was not thinking of doing any more major editing after CNX2. It is a good idea. As for my process, it will have to wait for another day as I am in the throws of a witch hunt trying to find out why my stable computer of many years is not crashing on a random basis. At first I was sure it was a RAM problem as Windows memtest told me I had bad pages, so I reseated the RAM and got no errors on the next Memtest only to have the machine crash again later that day. I am now running the extensive test (takes a long time and 70% into the complete 2 pass run, again I have no errors. Very frustrating.

On process, what do you think people want to know? My process is not magic, just methodical with a bit of experimentation thrown in to keep it interesting. It is similar to the process Jason uses in his book, except for the fact that I make a lot of use of NIK filters these days. In Adobe I am still a Margulis devotee and use much of what i learned from him.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 03-Jan-11 12:14 AM
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#65. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 60


San Jose, US
          

Rob thank you for the compliment, but I am not sure anyone would be interested in how I process my images when they have experts like Jason around. My processes are pretty much like his, and I just experiment a bit to keep it interesting. If I am wrong in my assessment than I might be willing to do a post mortem on how I did some of my images, but I am not sure anyone would find what I do surprising. As for my basic process, it would be pretty much the same whether I used Photoshop or CNX2.

But here is a summary of my process:

1. Ingress images into computer. I use the Free Nikon Transfer now part of View NX2. It allows me to store my RAW NEF in 2 locations at the same time and rename the files and create named folders for the storage. On my Photo Drive I call this Nikon Transfer and each batch of images copied to it, have a descriptive folder to tell me what is in it. I do not use catalog SW as I don't shoot enough images to require it. My folder system is housed on a single drive for all my photos, except for the second copy of the RAW file which is stored on a separate drive and never touched. The single big drive is periodically copied to a network RAID Drive by automatic SW, but not as a backup, but a direct use copy. That is my belt and suspenders.

2. When the files are copied, Transfer automatically opens the viewer in View NX2 and applies my custom data to all files e.g. Name, contact info, copyright, etc. I now go through the images and rate them. I try to be brutal. I look for major flaws and decide if it is worth my effort to try and correct them or not. If I have a series of similar images, I try to narrow the choice down to a single image of the subject if I can. The flaws I am looking for are blown highlights, focus point and sharpness, lost shadows, color casts, color accuracy, tilted horizons, composition, etc. I never actually delete an image unless it is so bad that it is hopeless, but it may get no stars. I sometimes go back and look at images that I passed on and find new images within. When all this is done. I now sort my list, highest rating first and then go through the high rated ones to see if I can differentiate images further. When I am done I will have a small batch of images at the top that need little or not work, and as I work down the list images that need more and more work.

3. I now go back to the top of the list and select an image and click on the CNX2 icon in View NX2 to open the image in the CNX2 editor. I then study the image for a few minutes to review what I had seen before and then open the metadata dialogue and add key words, description and titles.I could do this in View NX2, but I like doing it hear, because I have a smaller set of images to work with. I also look at the camera data here to see what the ISO and f stop was, what lens I used, what Picture Control, etc. as this helps me decide what to do next. From here on out I am going to work in a top down fashion doing global then selective edits until I am done. CNX2 is laid out this way and makes this approach easy.

4. I now open camera settings. If I was not happy with the WB I correct it now. I next look at the picture controls and decide if I am happy with color, saturation, etc are to my liking and select a picture control that meets my need. I have created non sharpened copies of all my picture controls and in any case select one of the non sharpened versions even if I like the control selected. This gives me more control over sharpening later. I now look at Noise Reduction. Usually I select the standard setting applied by CNX2 for global reduction, setting for best quality. If there are more noise issues, then you can always apply selective noise reduction later.

I think I will stop here for the moment, as I think if there is interest in what I am writing here, that I should start a new thread. If there is interest, I will step through the rest of the process I follow and why. If not, then I can stop here and not fill up the forum with unwanted data.

What I would cover next would be camera and lens corrections, the Quick Fix box and what I do and don't do here and setting Black,White and neutral points and use of settings to batch. I would then cover my normal selective processing steps and some that are not so normal. All this would be general until I could get to some specific examples like taking an image and walking through the steps of what I did.

What I don't want to do is write a book here is Jason has already done that and everyone should look at what he has come up with. Right now this is more of a philosophical approach, that says identify what you are trying to do and plan the approach to achieve those results. The forum is not the place to write a book.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 02:13 AM
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#66. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 65


Kingston, CA
          

>I think I will stop here for the moment, as I think if there

Dang, I was just getting into the flow when it ended! Agreed 100%, this is not the thread or the right in which to document a flow. It does sound like you use a flow similar to Jason's.

Peter

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 03-Jan-11 03:06 AM
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#68. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 66
Mon 03-Jan-11 03:08 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Peter thanks for the laugh! It helps not to take onself too seriously. As I was writing I got to thinking this is not good. Robp seems to think I have something extra in my images, and I am not sure that I do. If I wind up doing anything, it may be to take some image and explain how I got to the end, but that then asks what image do I do?

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 02:31 AM
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#67. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 65


Gainesville, US
          

Bob, I've already sort of overstepped the bounds of propriety by suggesting that you discuss some of your techniques, so I won't ask that you do more... but, if you choose to do that, I'll certainly be an avid reader.

I pretty much follow the steps that you've outlined so far and am getting pretty good results, but I see a "certain look" in your images and those of some others, like Joel Wallen, that favorably sets them apart. I'm guessing that the subtle difference is not something that can be cook-booked; for that reason I think that choosing a specific image and detailing the steps to completion would show where the, perhaps minor, deviation from an entirely straightforward processing approach makes a difference. Of course, that deviation may not be applicable to other images, but it is the nature of the non-standard bit of the process that might be instructive rather than the actual activity.

Can you tell I'm a dreamer? Thanks for contributing to my dream of better processing results, which you, and other Nikonians, have already done.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 03-Jan-11 03:33 AM
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#69. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 67


San Jose, US
          

Rob I stopped because I thought "gee this must be boring to anyone reading it". It is good to once in awhile stop and think about what you do. If I do anything, maybe it should be for someone to pick an image I have that they would like to know more about what I did, otherwise like I said, this could get to be a book and even I don't want to do that. I am always glad to answer questions about how I did something. I am not quite sure as to what you think my "certain look" is, could you be more specific? I know some people at Nikonians have a certain style and as soon as you see an image from them, you know it is them and the image blows you away with its artistry and technique, like Joel. I am hard pressed to think of anything I have posted that would be in that class, as there are so many shooters that produce better stuff than me. I do think I do the best I am capable of in my post processing considering my skill level. I have been doing what I do for a very long time, and the process is now as natural to me as walking, but you always learn new things. To me the real key is try to take better pictures, read that better simplified compositions and eliminate as much post as possible. In practice most of my processing consists of very few steps, I think because I am culling my images more.

I am sometimes driven to take an image I think is boring and figure out a way to make it more interesting. Of course the real trick is don't take boring pictures. So far I do not think I have accomplished what you were looking for.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 05:13 PM
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#74. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 67


Kingston, CA
          

>I'm guessing that the
>subtle difference is not something that can be cook-booked;
>for that reason I think that choosing a specific image and
>detailing the steps to completion would show where the,

I sometimes find images surprisingly get a lot more "punch" when I perform one or more of the following:

- fix white balance (even if it doesn't look like it needs it)
- set black point and especially white point (using NX2 watch points)
- apply a light "s curve" to brighten brights and darken darks

So... I am not implying these steps are the key but I am trying to point out that there may in fact be some cook-booked steps that are not obvious or easily forgotten but add a lot. So a "thread on flows" is a cool idea.

Peter

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 03-Jan-11 07:09 PM
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#75. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 74


San Jose, US
          

Peter I agree with you. In general for me it is WB, Picture control,noise reduction, Lens correction, Highlights and shadow protection, Black & White Points, basic sharpening. That is usually enough for 85-90 % of pictures. I usually then use NIK polarizer, Pro Contrast and tonal control, but their effect can be produced using curves and selective sharpening in CNX2. When I used Photoshop, I used LAB curves and LAB sharpening to do the same thing and often used Apply Image to blend one of the RGB channels with the original image to get more detail.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 09:17 PM
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#77. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 75


Gainesville, US
          

Apply Image, eh. Now there's a little tidbit for me to go play with. Thanks Bob.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 09:11 PM
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#76. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 74


Gainesville, US
          

Hi Peter,

I agree with and use your tweaks. I'm beginning to think that maybe the difference is not so much in the processing as it is in Subject Selection and Lucky Light Conditions. I'm reminded of your Landing Stork image when I think of remarkable pics.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 05-Jan-11 12:50 AM
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#80. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 60
Wed 05-Jan-11 01:42 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Rob I don't understand the benefit of using the ACR database to store your edits if you move to Adobe from CNX2. Yes you can set preferences in ACR to store your edits as an xmp sidecar or in the database, but if you plan on moving files it appears that Adobe suggests either creating XMP files from that database or importing the data to a DNG file. Only JPEG and TIFF files have the edits stored in the main file in Adobe products. So I never use ACR. I always do my RAW edit in CNX2 as long as the file came from a Nikon camera. If I was using a non Nikon, I think I would use ACR for any RAW format or JPEG I had. So for me my use of Photoshop does not involve the use of ACR and I only process TIFFs. If the file is small enough I bring it back to CNX2 and save it as a new NEF, but often it is so blotted that with the 32 bit limitation of CNX2, I can no longer open the file in CNX2, and thus leave it as a TIFF.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Wed 05-Jan-11 02:57 AM
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#81. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 80


Gainesville, US
          

Bob, you're right, there is no benefit to simply using the ACR database to store your edits. To repeat what I said before, I always start processing in CNX2 and usually need nothing else.

The only reason I use ACR is that I am sometimes more comfortable with some of its processing options so I just "Open With" Bridge from CNX2 because that automatically creates a TIFF with the in-camera setting "baked-in" and Bridge then allows me to open the image in either ACR or CS5. This procedure is particularly useful if I want to process multiple images with different exposures for HDR use; Bridge automates that procedure.

The only reason that I mentioned storing data in the database is that I detest the idea of a separate XMP file that may get lost. This data storage concept has no value unless I choose to use ACR or CS5 for some reason.

On those occasions that I use ACR or CS5, I just give up the idea of retaining the original raw image in a DNG file because that adds another step and more confusion. There is no need for me to use DNG because I save and retain the NEF file before moving from CNX2 to Bridge; thus I wind up with a partially edited NEF file with the original image and additional versions if I want, and a final-edit Tiff file.

Here's a five shot/exposure HDR image that I processed using CNX2 > Bridge > Merge to HDR Pro > CS5. It's not a Don Menges effort, but it's better than my first attempts.



I don't think this procedure is particularly useful, nor do I think it's needed very often; it just lends itself to the way I like to work.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 05-Jan-11 03:12 AM
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#82. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 81


San Jose, US
          

Thanks I understand. Because I never use ACR, until you mentioned it, I did not know you had a storage option. My expertise in Adobe is really exclusive of ACR and encompasses all the other tools. I guess I am a dinosaur.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Wed 05-Jan-11 03:52 AM
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#83. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 82


Gainesville, US
          

Well, I know that I'm a dinosaur. Take a look at the Killdeer I posted in the "Picture I Took" forum
http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=175&topic_id=79257&mesg_id=79257&page=

The post touches on a couple of things you've been addressing lately, like what to do with older gear and Mr. Margulis, whose magic I accessed using the procedure discussed here.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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Antero52 Silver Member Awarded for his expertise in post-processing, being  consistently helpful and professional. Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009Wed 05-Jan-11 07:29 AM
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#84. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 80


Vantaa, FI
          

Bob

When you say:

> I only process TIFFs. If the file is small enough I bring it back to CNX2 and save it
> as a new NEF, but often it is so blotted that with the 32 bit limitation of CNX2,
> I can no longer open the file in CNX2, and thus leave it as a TIFF

Ö do you mean blotted in megapixels or number of layers? Or do you mean that CNX2 cannot open any image files saved with an alpha channel (which could be stripped with IrfanView or the like that store TIFF files without alpha channels)?

Regards
Antero

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 05-Jan-11 04:29 PM
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#85. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 84


San Jose, US
          

CNX2 cannot handle a layered TIFF, it must be flattened to be opened in CNX2. So what I am talking about is overall size. Since you are flattening images, it should not matter whether there is an alpha channel or not. If I have made a lot of changes to a file, something I no longer often do, I do save the layered TIFF, because otherwise I would have to start over if I wanted to edit it, so that file would not make a round trip to CNX2. These days, it is more likely that I have combined images or did some esoteric trick in Photoshop, or the most common either added a copyright signature, changed prospective or added canvas. In those cases, I would come back to CNX2 and save as a NEF if I did not want to keep the TIFF.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Bald Eagle Registered since 24th Dec 2008Mon 27-Dec-10 12:45 PM
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#27. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 21


US
          

Bob- perhaps I stuck my issue in where it does't belong but I am still uncleaR. You and others are way more mknowledgeable about the ins and outs of NX2 and LR3, but does the print turn out better when using NX2 first and then LR3. If so what are you printing on? If the printer cannot read the color gamut or changes made first in NX2 why go thru the trouble. I am not talking about rescuing an image. Thanks in advance.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 27-Dec-10 06:35 PM
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#28. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 27
Mon 27-Dec-10 06:36 PM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Jack it may be me that is not being clear. CNX2 is a RAW processor first, but is capable of being your only photo processor including printing, with no need to use any other SW unless you need to do something that CNX2 can't do. You are correct that depending upon what color space you are using for your edits, your printer may or may not be able to produce the exact edited results, no matter whether you use CNX2, LR or Photoshop. CNX2 can work in the same color spaces as LR and Photoshop. I have my camera set to Adobe RGB and all my photo processors set to Pro Photo RGB. No printer can print the Pro Photo RGB space. But along with 16 bit processing it assures our edits will have smoother transitions and less artifacts, which will be visible when you print. Using CNX2 over LR or CS5 is a preference and often a skill issue. CNX2 is much easier to use and still achieve professional results. It is totally non destructive and can be reedited at any time in the future. None of the processors can read each others RAW edits, but when you use ACR in Adobe you are not working in RAW outside of ACR, but you stay in RAW with CNX2. So IF you have a need to do further edits to an image outside of CNX2 (as I have said really only for special situations) then in order to "bake in" those changes so that you can do further processing, NOT IN RAW, then you need to work in 16 bit TIFF's. Doing so you can move data back and forth between Adobe products and CNX2. When you complete your NEF edits in CNX2 it will send a 16 bit TIFF to your program of choice where you can do further edits in that format.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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grillij Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Aug 2008Mon 27-Dec-10 08:06 PM
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#29. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 28


Piedmont,Qc, CA
          


Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Very inetresting discussion, I am learning a lot in regards to NX ( which I have but have not used yet, LR 3 and CS5 and Nik Softwares ( which I use ).
I also just acquired the Nikon 24mm F1.4G so i deduct, from the discussions, That photos taken with this lens Will be sharper if processed by NX2 first and then converted to tiff to be filed via LR3.
You can then also apply any adjustments needed via LR,CS,NIK,ONONE, etc...

Is my comprehension of the situation right ? All because LR3 does not have the lens profile for the nikon 24mm f1.4G.
Jacques G

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 28-Dec-10 05:34 PM
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#32. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 29


San Jose, US
          

Jacques:

You will need to wait for Hektor to respond to these questions, but he does not come to this forum often. Brian and I are still looking to understand just what he has seen, as we don't use LR at all. I can say that Thom Hogan, who has been down on CNX2 lately still says it is the absolute best RAW processor for NEFs and gives the best results. CNX2 automatically corrects lens distortion for most Nikon lenses, especially the newer ones. It applies the WB you actually selected in camera and all the other controls you set, with there actual values, no other post processor can do that. If you use ADL, it is the only processor that will properly process the image. As long as you perform all the actions you want in CNX2, and then use the "Open With" command, you can sent a 16 bit TIFF to Photoshop or LR or whatever and all the edits you made including color corrections, will be in the TIFF file. IF you try and transfer a NEF, the other programs cannot read the changes. It is Hektor's assertion that he found a way to transfer a NEF to LR and actually apply lens correction. That is what we don't understand. It it is correct that this is what he saw this is interesting indeed, but it may be limited to lens correction only.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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grillij Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Aug 2008Tue 28-Dec-10 08:32 PM
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#35. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 32


Piedmont,Qc, CA
          

Robsb -
I was too curious to wait for Hektor's reply and did a quick test with 1 photo that I first imported directly to LR3 from my CompactFlash card. I then open NX2 and imported the same photo again from the CF card directly in NX2. From NX2 I saved the photo twice - one as a NX2 RAW/NEF and the second one as a NX2 TIF and reimported both photo to LR3.

The results are that the NX2 TIF import looks somehow sharper but cannot be adjusted as much as a NEF, specially for WB and Exposure. As to the NXe NEF it seems to be the same as the NEF originally imported by LR3.

I know this is not a scientific or very precise testing - but I had to do it.

The photo was taken handheld, D700, 85mm f1.4D @ f.5.6 - 1/30.

The fist photo is the LR3 NEF - the second one is the NX2 NEF and the third one is the NX2 TIF


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Jacques G








Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Tue 28-Dec-10 09:40 PM
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#36. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 35
Tue 28-Dec-10 10:37 PM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Jaques:

Maybe I did not make it clear Ė my fault. My test was limited to the D700 and the 24 1.4, because LR does not have the lens profile. As I told Bob, it might be that the photos imported directly to LR were less sharp than the other ones and not the other way around. This only applies to the sharpness, my only concern in viewing the results of my test run with the 24G.

I could have gone directly to a Tiff file from NX. However, I wanted to parallel as much as possible the photos I have taken with the D700 and other lenses, in the same location.

I have no idea why it did become such an issue Ė it was never that important to me. If I knew, what I know now, I would not have ever mentioned what I did. If the photos were not sharp, I would have gone in the Tiff direction from NX Ė no big deal.

Best regards,

Hektor

PS: ...and if the photos from the Tiff route would not have been sharp, I would have returned the lens.

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Tue 28-Dec-10 09:49 PM
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#37. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 36


Paignton, GB
          

Thank you for clearing up the confusion, Hektor.

I guess Lightroom still won't be the right tool for me, then...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Tue 28-Dec-10 10:44 PM
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#38. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 37


US
          

>Thank you for clearing up the confusion, Hektor.
>
>I guess Lightroom still won't be the right tool for me,
>then...


Thanks,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 29-Dec-10 12:35 AM
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#39. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 36


San Jose, US
          

To Hector and Jaques:

I think it is important to restate something I said before in another post not related to this one. When you open a NEF in CNX2 ALL CAMERA CONTROLS are applied. This includes sharpening you set, your picture Control, any special settings like ADL. LR does not and cannot do this. So if you open a NEF in LR none of that is applied and LR and Photoshop apply what ever approximation you set as your standard set up. So just given that, if you open a NEF in CNX2 and open that same NEF in LR, the camera sharpening is not being applied, so most likely your image will look less sharp and probably less saturated until you apply your LR settings. Of course this also goes for lens correction as well. BUT if you first open the NEF in CNX2 and then move the file to LR or Photoshop as a 16 bit TIFF it applies all the Nikon setting in the file. As far as Jaques comment that it is harder to do WB on a TIFF in LR, I would never suggest that you do any of the standard adjustments in LR instead of CNX2, because CNX2 is going to do a better job because it is reading camera controls. The reason you would move the file to LR or Photoshop for that matter is to do things CNX2 cannot do like Pano's, merging multiple images, Extensive cloning, etc. Can either program give you the same results? The answer is a qualified yes, but with a lot more effort when using Adobe and not at all if you are using the ADL settings.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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grillij Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Aug 2008Wed 29-Dec-10 03:22 PM
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#40. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 39


Piedmont,Qc, CA
          


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Bob
Thank you for the clarification - we are lucky to have you to give us a clear understanding of this issue.
In reading Hektor's posting I was under the impression that a photo taken with the Nikon 24 f1.4G was sharper if treated by NX2 as opposed by LR3 because LR did not have the 24mm lens profile.
As you explained, if I get it right, NX2 will apply all in camera settings (Nikon) so the photo will be a bit sharper and better at first and before you do the same or similar adjustment in LR3.

Again thanks again I guess I will spend some time to get to know the NX2 which I have but only used to get all itc info.
I love the filing and catalogues of LR3, the best on the market.
Even though Hektor responded that "
I have no idea why it did become such an issue Ė it was never that important to me"
It was important to me and you made it clear to understand.
Jacques G

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Wed 29-Dec-10 05:32 PM
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#45. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 40


San Jose, US
          

Jacques the fact that CNX2 applies all our camera settings is the main reason we use CNX2 as if you want to start with what you saw on the camera monitor, then this is the only way. Some people prefer the usability of Photoshop and don't care if the image reflects what they saw in camera and they choose Photoshop or LR for their processing. There is no wrong answer, just different ways of doing things. If you consider many people do not have the time or inclination to master Photoshop nor do they want to give up next gen controls like ADL and Picture controls, then CNX2 is an excellent alternative because it takes very little time to master it and get pro results.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Quigley 777 Registered since 07th Sep 2009Sun 02-Jan-11 07:19 PM
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#62. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 45


CA
          

Hi Bob and others, This topic although so tired, always teaches me more! Just to clarify, Converting to Adobe DNG while importing to lightroom seems like a way to carry the NX2 NEF with settings into Lightroom, alas it does not, such a disappointment!! As well if I want to Edit in CS, I will have to convert to TIFF in the end no matter. Why DNG? if it was supported across platforms, then it might be usefull. But not as it is. Not for me anyhow.

I have been using both (not together) NX2 and lightroom and have come to the conclusion that for purely editing NX2 is incredible and for an all in one package LR3 is impressive (if you dont mind losing all your in camera settings). For All the exceptions CS3,4 or 5 are necessary.

Ron Clifford
My Galleries

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sun 02-Jan-11 07:49 PM
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#64. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 62


San Jose, US
          

If you are not shooting Nikon, DNGmay make some sense as some cameras do support the DNG format, but as you have found out if you want to use CNX2 with LR or Photoshop then you must work in TIFFs after you do your RAW work in CNX2. The key is as you stated "if you don't mind losing all your in camera settings" and if you don't mind working with massive TIFFs LR may be an impressive option. For me with all those limitations, if I want to work outside of CNX2 my only tool of choice is CS5 extended, but in general CNX2 will always be my first choice. I also agree this thread is getting a bit tired, but it is not my thread, so I can't suggest closing it. It certainly has gotten way off message.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 03-Jan-11 05:45 AM
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#71. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 64


US
          

Hi Bob:

It is my thread and I would not mind for a moderator to close it.

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007Mon 03-Jan-11 04:24 AM
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#70. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 39
Mon 03-Jan-11 04:30 AM by Ramesses

US
          

Hi Bob:

I understand what you are saying. Before I got my MBA, I was a Programmer/Systems Analyst for the IBM Mainframes. In Data Processing we were always at the logical level unless we were implementing changes to an existing system, writing new programs, or designing a new system. Then and only then we went physical (Physical Level,) but we had the source code. Without it, we can only talk with a logical representation of the physical level, which can be meaningless Ė it is neither firewater nor lemonade.

I did follow different paths converting NEF files and used different methods with varying results. However, most of the results were inconclusive. With one path I followed, if I applied the LR camera calibration of Adobe Standard Beta 2 or Adobe Camera Standard Beta 2 and normal color settings in NX, the photos were identical. However, what is the point for me? I like the vivid colors.

When I tested a new path or method, I converted the photos to B&W in NX, to see exactly what was happening when I sent the photos to LR Ė there is no guessing here. In addition, I rated the photos, in NX with 5 stars. LR read the ratings and kept them. Undoubtedly, this info is in the metadata, but it reads it. Why? I have no idea where the lens profile is located Ė I do not have the source code. How does LR read it? Is it by the Nikon product ID or it builds it? What path does the program follow if it does not find it? Does it apply a generic profile, a 24mm lens generic profile, or no profile? What path does the program follow if it does find it? Etc, etc, etc. I took a stab in the dark; you never know until you try. Once again, my tests only applies to the D700, the 24 1.4 lens, and sharpness. It is not that important to me, except that my background in my previous life peeked my curiosity and I wanted to duplicate the same PP path I followed with the other lenses, at the same location.

Best regards,

Hektor

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

  

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grillij Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Aug 2008Mon 03-Jan-11 04:17 PM
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#72. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 70


Piedmont,Qc, CA
          



. Once again, my tests only applies to the D700, the 24 1.4
>lens, and sharpness. It is not that important to me, except
>that my background in my previous life peeked my curiosity and
>I wanted to duplicate the same PP path I followed with the
>other lenses, at the same location.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Hektor
>

Hektor and Bob

I was attracted to this tread because of the test with the 24 1.4 lens ( i purchased this lens a few weeks ago) - I learned a lot, with this tread, about NX2 - the advantages of NX2 and the incompatibility of LR3 to apply any adjustments made in NX2 unless the photo is converted to .TIF.

However my initial question is still unanswered.

A photo taken with the Nikon 24mm f1.4G will be sharper if opened in .nef by NX2 because NX2 applies the lens profile. LR3 does not have the lens profile therefore produces
a less sharp image if the image is sent to LR in .nef format. Hektor Is that what you are talking about ?

Bob - you got me interested in NX2 for the processing of my .nef photos. I still love LR3 for the filing and catalogues.



Jacques G

  

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nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Mon 03-Jan-11 04:58 PM
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#73. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 72


Knoxville, US
          

>However my initial question is still unanswered.

No way for me to know since I don't have that lens. I certainly haven't seen that with any of my lenses between the two programs. Much of it has to do with what you're tweaking and how you're displaying it on the screen.

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Mon 03-Jan-11 10:32 PM
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#78. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 72


Gainesville, US
          

Jacques,

From your post #29
"Is my comprehension of the situation right ? All because LR3 does not have the lens profile for the nikon 24mm f1.4G."

I think not. Although it is true that CNX2 has a 24mm lens profile and LR3 does not; this fact alone would not explain the differences you are seeing because the lens corrections only provide a minimal amount of additional sharpness which is due to correction of the relatively minor distortion of the lens. You can prove this to yourself by going to the "Camera and Lens Corrections" panel in CNX2 and turning the corrections on and off; you will likely see changes in the image shape due to adjustments to reduce distortion occurring in the lens, but you will see very little change in sharpness.

On the other hand, your D700 provides instructions, which can only be read by CNX2, to sharpen every photo that you take and the amount depends upon the picture control that you have selected. LR3 cannot read these instructions, so you must add sharpening to get properly detailed images.

Purists think that the sharpening algorithm used in-camera is not as robust as the one used in software, so they actually defeat the in-camera sharpening instructions when using CNX2 so that they may sharpen to their liking. In-camera sharpening can be defeated in the "Camera and Lens Corrections" panel in CNX2, but you first have to select one of the "Picture Control" settings, even when you want to use the one that is marked as "Unchanged" in the panel dialog. LR3 sees the unsharpened image just like the one in CNX2 with sharpening defeated.

The least amount of sharpening is added when the "Neutral or Portrait" picture control settings are selected; they use a value of 2, which is still non-zero. "Landscape" sets the value to 4. A couple of add-in picture controls which were made available in this forum by JRP are AASTANDARD and Velvia02 with sharpening values of 7 and 5 respectively.

If these sharpening values are not set to zero in CNX2, they are "baked_in" when the NEF file is saved as a TIFF file and they will be passed on to LR3 in that event; thus, you will see sharper initial images in LR3 when they have first been converted to TIFFs by CNX2. Otherwise, NEFs opened in LR3 have no sharpening added.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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grillij Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Aug 2008Mon 03-Jan-11 10:51 PM
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#79. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 78


Piedmont,Qc, CA
          

Thank you Robp
I now understand - sorry but it took me some time to get it - I am not a NX2 user.
I will try to get to know NX2 better - I just got the Jason Odell's eBook on NX2.

I plan to do all the sharpening via NX2 in the future and send it back to LR3 for storage and filing.



Jacques G

  

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Bald Eagle Registered since 24th Dec 2008Tue 28-Dec-10 12:46 PM
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#30. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 28


US
          

You da man!! Thanks for the additional info- it really helps. I am going to start working with CNX2 and see how I can put it in the control position of my workflow.

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 28-Dec-10 05:23 PM
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#31. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 30


San Jose, US
          

Glad I finally made it clear. Come back and tell us how it goes for you. At first most people are frustrated by the CNX2 interface because they are used to an Adobe one, but once you get past that, you will be amazed at the power and how simple it is to use. I usually spend less than 5 minutes on average with an image, though I have spent much more time on occasion.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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JonK Moderator Awarded for his high level skills and in-depth knowledge in various areas, such as Wildlife, Landscape and Stage Photography Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2004Thu 30-Dec-10 11:09 PM
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#58. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 0


New York, US
          

Image Doctor Jason Odell has written a piece about why he uses Capture NX2. A very cogent arguement.

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 31-Dec-10 01:57 AM
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#59. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 58


San Jose, US
          

Jon thanks for the link. Jason has stated the argument well and pretty much covers all the reasons I use CNX2, though I am a CS5 owner.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Sun 02-Jan-11 07:20 PM
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#63. "RE: Good News for Nikonís software "diehards?""
In response to Reply # 0


Apex, US
          

I sure hope that Tom's received beta releases does include something in the Capture NX family, but I really doubt that it does. I haven't seen any other indication that there is an imminent update for Capture in the short term. If somebody else has knowledge or links to references, I'd love to hear about it assuming it doesn't violate an NDA of any sort.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Digital postprocessing & workflow (Public) Nikon & Nikonians Imaging Software (Public) topic #4492 Previous topic | Next topic


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