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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Thu 12-Aug-10 07:45 PM
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"Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
Thu 12-Aug-10 07:50 PM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

I'm learning the craft of work-flow after the fact.

Having a nest of images that is somewhere over 27,000 beginning around 2002.

I'm spending evenings reviewing files and inserting my own colloquial keywords for the time being.

Is there a preferred program that can be used in concert with CNX, to sort and or allow additional perhaps more generic keywords to be inserted, and which can filter images in context, by file number, keyword, type etc?

For now, Adobe Lightroom version 3 is not an option. This build has issues with crashing and import/export protocols, and is completely unusable for a lot of people. A check of their forum will verify this.

That's $300 tossed in my case. Guess that makes me a tosser.

So, any suggestions are appreciated in advance and if the questions seem lame, that's OK.

The wealth of real-time experience and information here is more concise and reliable than a search generally in the web.

Thanks,

Rob

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Freewheeler10
13th Aug 2010
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Robman3
13th Aug 2010
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nrothschild Silver Member
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Robman3
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Robman3
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nrothschild Silver Member
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PAStime Silver Member
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Robman3
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Freewheeler10 Registered since 17th Apr 2008Fri 13-Aug-10 01:03 PM
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#1. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 0


Englewood, US
          

>So, any suggestions are appreciated in advance and if the
>questions seem lame, that's OK.

A lot of folks on these forums swear by Photo Mechanic, it's available
for Windows or Mac, and they have a demo you can download so you
don't have to add to your "tosser" inventory.

'Nobody ever grows old merely by living a number of years. Years
wrinkle the skin, but to give up one's enthusiasm wrinkles the soul.'
___Romany saying

http://gallery.me.com/freewheeler
http://freewheeler10.blogspot.com/

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 13-Aug-10 06:29 PM
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#4. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 1


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Gary!

Rob

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Fri 13-Aug-10 01:33 PM
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#2. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 13-Aug-10 01:34 PM by nrothschild

US
          

PhotoMechanic is more of a browser than a cataloger. The developer says they are working on a full fledged catalog app and a lot of people are holding their breath on that one. Some have passed out already so don't hold your breath

I use iMatch. You can get a 30 day trial, and if you like it, it's only $65 or so. It uses a hierarchical system of categories, which is slightly different than keywording. As with any catalog app, once you've invested the time to catalog all the images you are somewhat or totally in bed with that app. iMatch has some interesting export options and custom scripting that can help to migrate but it's a complex job at best.

iMatch has generally been very stable for me. I have some performance issues with it but I have a database of 175,000 images, accessed over a network. At 27K images it would be a breeze, especially with locally attached drives. It is probably the fastest app out there.

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 13-Aug-10 06:32 PM
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#5. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 2


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Neil, I'll check it out.

Thanks,

Rob

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sat 14-Aug-10 05:41 AM
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#9. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 2


West of Santa Monica, US
          

There are stock images houses with fewer images than that, and some with more. I'd suggest it's a a careers worth of effort.

Rob

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sat 14-Aug-10 07:47 PM
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#10. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 9


US
          

Yea, I do have some culling to do .

_________________________________
Neil


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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Fri 13-Aug-10 06:16 PM
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#3. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 13-Aug-10 06:19 PM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

Hi,

I am currently using ACDSee Pro and am mostly happy with it. I don't use the cataloging feature extensively.

Photomechanic is not a cataloging tool. They are planning to add this feature in the long term. There are varying opinions on Photomechanic. I have evaluated it and found it expensive relative to the light set of features it has. If they successfully add cataloging, I may buy it.

I strongly recommend you think this through as you don't want to have to catalog twice! For example are you inserting keywords in a database or in the images? Will what you do be portable to what you may use next?

I was in a bookstore recently and sat for an hour or more reading sections of this book. I found it useful (though perhaps not worth buying outright):

http://www.thedambook.com/

Cheers,
Peter

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 13-Aug-10 07:04 PM
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#6. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 3


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Peter thanks!

Given that folks like Gary, Neil and you likely have never let the task of prestaging/culling images get out of hand, your advice is welcomed.

For the moment I do have time to evaluate the suggestions.

I'll go the Barnes & Noble to check through this book, before they shutter all of their shops .

The goal is to establish these 30,000 or so images with a hierarchy using industry standards, keywords, tags, locations and such as a starting point for commercial forays.

Using a portable format yes that seems essential.

For now I am inserting the XMP/IPTC information in CNX but have been choosing my own keywords.

The screens for additional data insertion can read like a book and for now I am not documenting research in the Amazon Canopy so most of it is not filled in.

How extensive should these fields be filled in would be a question then?

Another question to you seasoned vets would be, is there a static and accepted list of the keywords and other data for inclusion either in a database or the image XMP/IPTC fields?

Thanks for taking time to advise!

Rob


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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 13-Aug-10 09:33 PM
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#7. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 6
Sat 14-Aug-10 02:02 AM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

PhotoMechanic is great for creating Keywords that get embedded in the JPG and NEF (or whatever format you prefer) so that they stay with the image, rather than being stored in a separate catalog or sidecar file. But it is not a cataloging system, per se. It does a excellent job doing exactly what is say it will do, with great speed and reliability. From that perspective, I think it is worth the money. I've been using it for about 4 years.

My only atempt at using a catalog app was iVeiw, which turned into Expression Media after it was bought by Microsoft, and after getting the Microsoft treatment, it has now been sold. I found it to be unreliable and flaky, and would not recommend it.

PhotoMechanic will let you build a list of Keywords to save, or will use heierarchical, structured keyword,such as these by Controlled Vocalubary http://www.controlledvocabulary.com/help/cvkc-photomechanic.html. This is a great feature and easily customizable. I believe you can also use AP standard keywords and categories, but I haven't gotten that far yet. PM seems to be good a keeping up with IPTC standards.

I'd give the free trial a try. It may be a good part of your workflow regardless of your cataloging app, especially for the ability to apply keywords and other IPTC data on ingest or in batch processes. The use of variables to extract EXIF data and create filenames or IPTC data is also most useful.

To me, they also have the best customer and technical support of any software company that I've dealt with in recent years.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 13-Aug-10 09:45 PM
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#8. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 7


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Mick as always, thanks!

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 15-Aug-10 09:39 AM
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#11. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 3
Sun 15-Aug-10 10:16 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Peter,

I downloaded the demo an hour ago.

Very well managed as far as getting the files up and viewable en mas and the dashboard GUI is similar in look to LR, Smug Mug etc.

The sharpening seems extremely detailed (Pun? yikes!) in a sense overclocking to 300%. Jumping around a few images it renders a better clarity in others it has to be drawn down from the default which is 100% when opened as it appears overdone.

Are there preferred settings that won't push the image artificiality or that work generally, or settings when comparing portraiture, landscapes, cityscape etc?

What are your top uses of this program?

Are you using this tool-set more or less often than say CNX or CS to do the color edits, sharpening and so on?

Thanks in advance.


Rob

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Sun 15-Aug-10 04:48 PM
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#12. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 11
Sun 15-Aug-10 04:50 PM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

>Peter,
>I downloaded the demo an hour ago.

I presume you mean ACDSee Pro.

I use it for JPG And NEF ingesting (with keywords added on the fly, and backup on the fly to a second hard drive), culling, rating, browsing, cataloging, searching (e.g., saved searches of images with a certain lens), copying/pasting, resizing, output sharpening, watermarking and uploading to SmugMug, gettting a customized clipboard summary of the EXIF and IPTC data. I also drag and drop (or alt-x) to the image basket and burn basket when collecting images from many different folders for later editing, copying, burning, viewing, etc. I also use it to batch set file and image EXIF attributes (e.g., capture dates). I have various different workspaces defined for these functions, each making use of my two monitors. I have colour management enabled as I work in the Adobe RGB space.

There is a lot of functionality I do not use.

Note that because I convert from NEF to JPG in NX2, cataloging attributes do not naturally follow the files during conversion - a hole in my workflow.

I use NX2 for all raw conversion, image editing, etc. I never do raw conversion or image editing in ACDSee.

While browsing I send NEF and jpg images from ACDSee to NX2 using ctrl-alt-x

Cheers,
Peter

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 15-Aug-10 06:25 PM
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#13. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 12


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Peter thanks again,

It appears to be the throughput resource for much of the minutiae inherent in time/process management, and bridges those gaps from NX2.

Might I ask then, is sharpening disabled in NX2 and only added in ACDSee during the final output stage? Some folks swear by the sharpening in NX2 as you know.(Versus the moments when they might be swearing at NX2)..

When you mention attributes not naturally flowing, does that mean one has to input some or all the IPTC data twice then? Once for the initial NX2 cull and then again for transfer over to ACDSee should the format change i.e. NEF to Tiff, NEF to JPEG and so on?

I very much appreciate you taking time to school me on the overview as it's less bullet pointed than the details on their site.

Cheers as well,

Rob




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Robert White Registered since 21st Jan 2006Sun 15-Aug-10 10:04 PM
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#14. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 13


San Francisco, US
          

Look at IDImager at www.idimager.com. Very robust but with bit of a learning curve (but an enormously useful manual available). I have used it for 4 years integrated into NX2.

Frith

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klafollette Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 02:06 AM
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#16. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 14


Carol Stream, US
          

I second the IDImager Pro recommendation. I'm using along with NX2. It's a sophisticated asset management tool that manages your workflow and organizing/labeling/cataloging all your images, in as many ways as you can think of. Agree the learning curve takes a bit. Support community and vendor support is very good. Updates come out frequently.

Kevin

>Look at IDImager at www.idimager.com. Very robust but with
>bit of a learning curve (but an enormously useful manual
>available). I have used it for 4 years integrated into NX2.

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 16-Aug-10 02:53 AM
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#17. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon 16-Aug-10 02:54 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Robert and Kevin, thanks as well.

I'm on patrol to study the four suggested applications.

I bookmarked their site.

Rob

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 11:56 AM
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#18. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 17


Kingston, CA
          

>Robert and Kevin, thanks as well.
>I'm on patrol to study the four suggested applications.
>I bookmarked their site.
>Rob

Rob... let us know how you make out. I too may give IDimager a try. Peter

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Wed 18-Aug-10 07:36 AM
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#24. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 18


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Peter,

What functionality is the ACDsee not covering or are you just curious about the IDimager?

These two systems do a lot of the same thing as first glance although I'm having trouble finding the watermarking set up in ID somewhere in the HTML publishing menu but I'm still looking.

One is three times the cost so I am curious as to whether it's more full featured, or would I be paying for redundant process capabilities to CNX or LR etc?

Thanks,

Rob

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Sun 15-Aug-10 11:35 PM
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#15. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 13


Kingston, CA
          

Hello,

Sometimes I copy the cataloging information from the NEFs to the JPGs, but most of the time I just catalog the JPGs. This is not a good solution!

I always sharpen in NX2 (during raw conversion and during final output). The exception is when I'm posting many images to the web. In that case I have a batch edit defined in ACDSee Pro that:

- resizes
- adds copyright text to bottom right of image
- output sharpens

Cheers,
Peter

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Mon 16-Aug-10 12:43 PM
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#19. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 12


US
          

>> Note that because I convert from NEF to JPG in NX2, cataloging attributes do not naturally follow the files during conversion - a hole in my workflow.

I have the same problem in iMatch. I've come to the conclusion that it is more or less an insolvable problem unless I do something I don't want to do, which is to embed cataloging data in the NEF from iMatch. iMatch will do that but there are some reasons I hesitate.

iMatch has a good (fast easy to use) facility for finding files with similar names. I always include enough of the orginal NEF file name in the jpg file name to retain that "connection". There is also a mechanism in imatch (custom scripting) that, in principle, could automate the process in various ways but I'm not sure I want to totally automate that.

Interestingly, I took the opposite approach mentioned previously- I primarily catalog the NEF image, not the jpg. I locate the NEF via keyword (iMatch catagory) then execute a couple of clicks to find all files with similar names, which will include the TIFs and JPGs generated from the file.

I also tried another approach, which was to embed the NEF file name into the IPTC "Object Name" field. I am supposed to do that in PhotoMechanic via it's IPTC stationary pad but because I rename files on ingest that got complicated and for some reason I am missing the object name in about 10% of my NEFs, likely just some mistake I made in the work flow. This is still a work in process but might give someone an idea how to deal with this linkage and syncing problem.

_________________________________
Neil


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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 09:53 PM
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#20. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 19


Kingston, CA
          

>I have the same problem in iMatch.

I'm not alone in this!

>unless I do something I don't want to do, which is to embed
>cataloging data in the NEF from iMatch.

As I recall, ACDsee, iMatch and, as I read last evening, IDimager all are able to do this but warn against it as there aren't standards on how to embed the information. This puts the information and the NEF at greater risk of future incompatibility.

>I primarily catalog the NEF image, not the jpg.

That approach has its merits. As mentioned, I have gone the other way. Since I have a large non-NEF collection, and JPGs still coming my way from a three point and shoot cameras in this household, I catalog the JPG and only keep raw files of valuable images I might want to improve in the future.

Cheers,
Peter

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Mon 16-Aug-10 10:16 PM
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#21. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

I keep all my raw, shoot raw whenever possible, and treat any JPG's from other cameras as "raw" to the extent of my organizational workflow. If I do shoot in JPG, I keep the original, untouched, out of camera JPG as the equivalent of my "raw", which I think is the only viable option since you can never unwind most edits done to a JPG as you can with raw edits. But that just suits my own work flow and post processing habits.

iMatch warns about using it's NEF embedding feature ("use at your own risk!" in bold red ); interesting to hear that the others do the same. The problem, as I see it, is threefold:

1. Nikon apparently does not disclose how it embeds that metadata, or at least not in an organized way that is meant for 3rd party app developers to utilize for embedding. Nikon is free to change what it is doing whenever it sees fit and the app developers are left holding the bag when that happens (and data may be lost as a result).

2. Nikon also does not support XMP sidecar files, which is the alternative solution to proprietary embedding and the solution a lot of shooters are most comfortable with. No matter what an app might do to scramble a sidecar file, at leas the imaget is intact.

3. Nikon wants to "own" the software (same with Adobe really and their sidecars) and force us to use their software. Yet Nikon does not make a cataloging (DAM) program and that's the rub... Nikon wants to own the NEF but doesn't provide all the tools we need.

That leaves 3rd party developers doing the best they can to deal with what is really a very ugly situation. And Adobe "owns" the XMP format, as I understand it, that is used in sidecar files so there is a pox on all their houses.

I mention all this because it took me a while to figure out the big ugly picture, long after I chose a DAM program (iMatch).

The last challenge I went through is to try to get iMatch to READ the embedded metadata in the NEF, rather than an XMP sidecar, so that I could get NX2 and Photomechanic to interchangeably rate images, at least, and then get iMatch to read all the data correctly when it imports the images to the catalog. I can't get the ratings to work and haven't had time to pursue support on it. Searching the iMatch forum just told me I was doing things the way they suggest but it didn't import the star ratings. And in the meantime I have many thousands of images in various stages prior to import and I'm quite scared to change any of those settings in PM or iMatch because what I have works, as long as I don't use NX2 to rate or display the ratings, and that's where I sit at the moment

I dread the day I will have to leave iMatch (I'm reasonably happy but nothing is forever in the software world). I'll worry about that when the day comes because the solution depends on where I port everything. For now, everything is in iMatch and I just do basic ingest IPTC data in PM that passes through, plus any rating I do while culling prior to cataloging in iMatch. The nice thing about iMatch is that it has custom Vb scripting capability, with a rather large body of user written scripts available. So I figure I have a good tool set if I ever need to port out somewhere else.

_________________________________
Neil


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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Tue 17-Aug-10 02:00 AM
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#22. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 21
Tue 17-Aug-10 02:01 AM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

>I keep all my raw, shoot raw whenever possible, and treat any
>JPG's from other cameras as "raw"

This is a good approach.

>you can never unwind most edits done to a JPG as you can with

Yes, that is very true.

>I mention all this because it took me a while to figure out
>the big ugly picture, long after I chose a DAM program

I had a vague notion this was the situation... your explanation clarifies it nicely.

>I can't get the ratings to work and haven't had time

I once went through this and found that the ratings were embedded in a field I believe called Priority. I presume you have gone down this path without success.

>The nice thing about iMatch is that it
>has custom Vb scripting capability, with a rather large body
>of user written scripts available. So I figure I have a good
>tool set if I ever need to port out somewhere else.

I've done some programming in my career so can see how this would work quite well (although would still take a weekend to write, debug, verify, and then launch to process an entire image collection). One could write a script that extracts the imatch info into a shareable intermediary file and then, hopefully using a scripting language available in the new tool, read that info in and apply it to the image records in the new database. This is a plus for imatch.

Peter

  

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Tue 17-Aug-10 02:10 AM
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#23. "RE: Cataloguing, or cataloging, besides LR3, what is suggested?"
In response to Reply # 0


Wellington, NZ
          

Can I direct the same question at Mac users? I'm using Lightroom 3 at the moment (trial version before I commit myself) and am looking at other options. I've discounted Aperture. I just don't get on with it. Welcoming other ideas and suggestions otherwise it'll be Lightroom.

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Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Digital postprocessing & workflow (Public) Nikon & Nikonians Imaging Software (Public) topic #3113 Previous topic | Next topic


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