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Subject: "If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask..." Previous topic | Next topic
Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Thu 05-Aug-10 06:04 AM
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"If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"


West of Santa Monica, US
          

As a learning curve, it's obvious that noise reduction will help soften an image with a lot of noise but, it's use needs to be tempered otherwise the image suffers from a pastel effect. That's my take anyway.

Once the need (or not) is established, just how far should one go with the other sharpening and detail enhancement tools?

USM: How much is applicable settings wise, is there a normative range? (I'm copping the word normative from Mark Whalberg in the Departed)

HP: Same question.

Should one use both in a single image?


Thanks in advance,

Rob

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
mklass Platinum Member
05th Aug 2010
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Robman3
05th Aug 2010
3
     Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
mklass Platinum Member
06th Aug 2010
5
          Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
Robman3
06th Aug 2010
6
          Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
Baaker Silver Member
06th Aug 2010
7
               Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
Robman3
06th Aug 2010
8
               Reply message RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp ...
mklass Platinum Member
06th Aug 2010
10
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sevtcard Silver Member
08th Aug 2010
11
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mklass Platinum Member
06th Aug 2010
9
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cliddell Silver Member
05th Aug 2010
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Robman3
05th Aug 2010
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cliddell Silver Member
12th Aug 2010
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ericbowles Moderator
12th Aug 2010
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cliddell Silver Member
13th Aug 2010
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ericbowles Moderator
08th Aug 2010
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Robman3
08th Aug 2010
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ericbowles Moderator
08th Aug 2010
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Robman3
09th Aug 2010
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doneverly
17th Aug 2010
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17th Aug 2010
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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Thu 05-Aug-10 10:13 AM
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#1. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 0


Tacoma, US
          

Rob,

Applying sharpening after noise reduction is common, but they really do work against each other, so it is a balancing act.

Jason Odell has some suggested starting points in his Capture NX E-book as does Mike Hagen in his After the Shoot Capture NX 2 book.

Jason also has some suggested settings that he has shared for using both on the same image:
USA: Intensity: 60%; Radius 3%; Threshold 5
High Pass: 2px

Those are just starting points, though. One way to get it right for an image is to view at 100% and adjust until you feel it looks the way you want. Sharpening, like spices, are to individual taste- some like more, some like less.And like foods with spices, individual images react differently to noise reduction and sharpening.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Thu 05-Aug-10 11:12 PM
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#3. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 1


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Mick thanks for the feedback.

I am in the first few chapters of the e-book from Jason and will re-read the Hagen text on this as well.

Somehow, I feel like these high settings, ( I'll call additive synthesis) is too much but again, if there is a nominal usage amount for the images generally, which are posted in these threads then I'll absorb and render as such.

Seasoning indeed, thanks again for the commentary.

Rob

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 06-Aug-10 01:11 AM
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#5. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 3


Tacoma, US
          

Frankly, Rob, I've taken the Standard PC in camera and adjusted sharpening to 5 and boosted contrast by 1 click. For most shots this has eliminated post processing sharpening. I may use a different in camera PC when I shoot particular subjects, but most of the time I like the results with this and it saves post time.

Mick
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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 06-Aug-10 06:43 AM
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#6. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 5


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Cool,

That's interesting indeed.

In my state of advancement, sometimes a muddle, sometimes not I value sage advice.

I try to shoot as close to what is there to capture the fleeting and tend to use the "tools" as you said, like spices in a dish.

On occasion, pushing an element of saturation, hue, contrast etc may make a statement but in my self editing brain, I don't want to get too far away from the scene or subject as it occurred.

I do appreciate your effort to share nuance.


Thanks again,

Rob

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 06-Aug-10 07:49 AM
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#7. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 5


Dumbarton, GB
          

>Frankly, Rob, I've taken the Standard PC in camera and
>adjusted sharpening to 5 and boosted contrast by 1 click. For
>most shots this has eliminated post processing sharpening. I
>may use a different in camera PC when I shoot particular
>subjects, but most of the time I like the results with this
>and it saves post time.

>Applying sharpening after noise reduction is common, but they really do work against each other, so it is a balancing act.

If you sharpen in camera and then apply noise reduction is that not only a waste of time but you have potentially degraded the image when you didn't need to? With sharpening on in camera it makes the noise worse especially if you then set a high iso in camera. This is why - imo - that you shouldn't have sharpening on in camera.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 06-Aug-10 08:30 AM
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#8. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 7


West of Santa Monica, US
          

I'm reading the e-book and in chapter 8, the final develop step is to "disable the in camera sharpening so that you can sharpen later in work flow".

Point taken, thanks!

Rob

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 06-Aug-10 10:11 AM
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#10. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 8
Fri 06-Aug-10 10:12 AM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

>I'm reading the e-book and in chapter 8, the final develop
>step is to "disable the in camera sharpening so that you
>can sharpen later in work flow".
>
Rob,

My advice would be to try it either way, with In-camera sharpening off and with it set to, say, 5 (maybe even try a few settings). Then post process both images to get them the way you want and see if you achieve something completely better one way or the other.

When I did this, I found that I could eliminate the PP sharpening step in 50-60% of my images. That's a significant time saver. If I'm doing a wedding or event with lots of images to process, that saves huge amounts of time. Even for a less hectic pace, it just saves a step.

It's all just pixel processing anyway, the difference is in one case your camera's computer is doing it, in the other, it is your laptop or desktop.

To me, books are great for guidance and tips, starting points for improving my photography and making me think, but the cookbook approach (back on the food thing again, I must be hungry) to photography isn't what will make a picture outstanding. The great photographers and images that they created did not get that way because they did what everyone else did.


Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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sevtcard Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Sun 08-Aug-10 12:46 PM
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#11. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 10


Brattleboro, US
          

this is an interesting exchange...it seems that the issue for most of those who commented centers on efficiency in volume production...my work is not volume work - my images get a fair amount of post-processing...i turn off virtually all settings in camera to allow me the greatest range of expression post...or to put it another way, i turn settings off to improve my post-processing efficiency, as, if i have in camera settings on, i must first turn them all off in nx2...

couldn't agree more with mklass that 'books are great for guidance... isn't what a picture outstanding'...and agree with his other point, that using sharpening, etc. is for generating an image you like...not necessarily one that is technically perfect ...

in the end, it's all in the eye...

mark
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 06-Aug-10 09:57 AM
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#9. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 7


Tacoma, US
          

If you're shooting in raw, it doesn't matter much.

I have tweaked the in-camera sharpening to the point where I was effectively resetting it to in post anyway. The change is relatively mild, but makes a noticeable difference, and does increase noise noticeably. And it is actually saving me time by getting the image closer to right in-camera, rather than playing with sharpening in post-processing.

Yes, for a super hi ISO shot or a very long exposure, it may exaggerate noise, but in those situations, I would likely use a different in-camera PC that applies less in-camera sharpening.

I am shooting with a D300s or D3s, so my noise issues tend to be on the low side except in extreme situations. As they say: "Your mileage may vary."

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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cliddell Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Oct 2006Thu 05-Aug-10 01:19 PM
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#2. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 0


Pietermaritzburg, ZA
          

Hi Rob,

A lot depends on whether you have any sharpening set in camera - I have med-high set in my cameras (my only in camera setting) and thus my "normative" range of USM is between 14 and 20. If I need a little noise reduction then I will use a USM of around 10.

I make very little use of high pass.

Regards,
Clive Liddell
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Thu 05-Aug-10 11:34 PM
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#4. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 2


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Clive,

Thanks for chiming in.

I believe I have everything set to off in the camera, NR etc and standard is the lighting mode.

Except the sharpening which is around 5 on the scale, 0 through 9.

When you stated medium to high, where does that posit?

Thanks for your advice as well.

Rob

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cliddell Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Oct 2006Thu 12-Aug-10 05:13 PM
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#16. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 4


Pietermaritzburg, ZA
          

Hi Rob,
"When you stated medium to high, where does that posit?"
===

This is in the "previous" Optimisation menu (D200) and, on a scale of 5 (where "0" is the middle "Normal") I use +1 which is termed Med-High. Its convenient for me because my two D70s's also share this menu so all my DSLRs pass through my post processing seamlessly...

Regards,
Clive Liddell
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Thu 12-Aug-10 08:27 PM
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#17. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 16


Atlanta, US
          

This is a good example of why sharpening settings are so confusing.

The D200 setting of "0" actually includes sharpening - and is not the same as "None". You can set sharpening for -2 using the D200 menu - and even that setting includes some sharpening. You have to select "None" to have no in-camera sharpening.

The Picture Control Settings of Capture NX2 (and the D300) also have some sharpening if you use the Neutral pre-set. The Neutral pre-set has sharpening set at 2 on a scale of 0-9.

If you are editing RAW images in non-Nikon products, your sharpening is controlled in post processing. The exact interpretation depends on how your software applies camera settings.

If you are using Capture NX2, your in-camera sharpening is applied unless you remove it. You have to change the Picture Control setting for sharpening to "0" in order to have the least possible sharpening. In NX2 editng I use a custom picture control setting that is based on the Neutral setting with sharpening further reduced to "0".

Eric Bowles
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cliddell Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Oct 2006Fri 13-Aug-10 03:20 PM
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#18. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 17


Pietermaritzburg, ZA
          

Hi Eric,

"The D200 setting of "0" actually includes sharpening - and is not the same as "None". You can set sharpening for -2 using the D200 menu - and even that setting includes some sharpening. You have to select "None" to have no in-camera sharpening."
===

Thanks for clarifying that. It explains why I find my images in VNX and CNX2 to be "adequately" sharp and only apply relatively small additional Un-Sharp Mask if necessary.

Regards,
Clive Liddell
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Sun 08-Aug-10 02:07 PM
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#12. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 0


Atlanta, US
          

I have sharpening set in-camera on 7 to support both viewing the image in the LCD and a first review to rate images. For events where a speedy workflow is required, I expect to "get it right in-camera" and editing is rare.

Outside of events, I expect to edit select images. My first editing step is to remove all in-camera sharpening and neutralize other settings.

For images requiring noise reduction, I try to apply sharpening selectively to the areas of the image that require sharpening only. As others have said, sharpening and noise reduction work against each other. You typically will not need to both reduce noise and sharpen the same area of an image.

I use NX2 for most of my editing. I typically use either High Pass and sometimes use Unsharp Mask for highlighting reflections - but I typically do not use both for the same area of an image.

High Pass works well with a higher pixel setting and using Opacity to dial it back. In the Nikon School NX2 class, one of the instructors suggested setting High Pass pixels equal to the Megapixels of the camera - 12 for a D300 - and then using a lower opacity setting such as 40-50%.

For posting to the web, I eliminate my sharpening step, resize, then apply sharpening to the smaller image. My workflow in NX2 makes that approach easy.

Eric Bowles
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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 08-Aug-10 08:17 PM
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#13. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 12


West of Santa Monica, US
          

I see the value for in camera settings as intrinsic to work flow once you have the balance set etc, and consequently speeding up output as a result.

Rating on the fly?

I may be missing a step here, are those voice notes or do you somehow mark each image in a preset or series of commands? Or are you deleting?

Thanks in advance,

Rob

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Sun 08-Aug-10 10:21 PM
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#14. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 13


Atlanta, US
          

Sorry for the lack of clarity Rob - I do not rate on the fly. I typically rate immediately after download during my initial review of images.

Eric Bowles
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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 09-Aug-10 04:07 AM
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#15. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 14


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Thanks Eric, point taken.

Rob

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doneverly Registered since 26th Jul 2010Tue 17-Aug-10 07:04 AM
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#19. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 15
Tue 17-Aug-10 07:05 AM by doneverly

GB
          

I'm with Eric 100% - if you can get it right in-camera then that's the way to go (IMHO).

I use NEUTRAL/STANDARD for most subjects with the sharpening boosted a little above the default value.

This gives me what I like to see on the camera's LCD and when opened in NX2. If individual attention is required I then switch off the in-camera sharpening in NX2 and, as a last step, apply a preset containing a mixture of HP and USM sharpening before sending on to PS.

The idea of turning everything off in-camera defeats the purpose of using NX2 - if that approach is taken ACR should be good enough and NX2 is not needed.

D

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Tue 17-Aug-10 07:52 AM
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#20. "RE: If NR is needed, after that, a question on unsharp mask and high-pass, when to say when?"
In response to Reply # 19


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Don,

Good info, I shot with all off last night and the stage was poorly lit, the images have noise to resolve, if it is more or less I'm not certain.

I'll make a check list for this weekend's concert shoot and try both ways as I'll have time to get back to the house before the set actually begins .

Set up is at 10 AM downbeat is at 8 PM.

So thanks for that as well.

Rob

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