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Subject: "Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!" This topic is locked.
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Bob32 Silver Member Nikonian since 29th Jul 2007Thu 29-Jul-10 11:56 PM
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"Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"


Chico, US
          

I just visited Thom Hogan's website. According to an article he posted on July 28 he no longer recommends Capture NX2 as the best NEF raw file converter. He says that he uses Adobe RAW converter most of the time lately. He goes further to state that Capture NX2 needs a rewrite from the foundation up.

Wow!! Any comment by NX2 users?

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Fri 30-Jul-10 04:29 AM
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#1. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 30-Jul-10 04:33 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

Thom has his opinion and thats cool, for me NX2 is the simplest of the NEF converters and makes my PP simple and effective. Adobe to me is over hyped, over priced and way to complicated for simple NEF conversions and PP. Plus until Nikon releases all the data for ARC in my opinion NX2 will still look better with less work since I can set up much of what I like in the camera and NX2 reads that data while retaining the power of the NEF/RAW file.

I just read his update seems he is backing off a bit. One point he brings up is Upoint that you have to pay extra for in Adobe and is standard in NX2.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 30-Jul-10 07:20 AM
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#2. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 1


Dumbarton, GB
          

If you go through this forum there are a lot of complaints regarding NX2 and very little, if any, regarding Camera RAW. As to simplicity in use, you are entitled to your opinion but I gave up on NX2 to use Camera RAW because it was easier to use. The hardware problems with respect to NX2 are too many and varied which means using it cause frustrations which make "simple NEF conversions" anything but simple? I think that Tom is on the money and if it nudges Nikon along to solve the problems then he is doing Nikon shooters a favour?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Fri 30-Jul-10 07:44 AM
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#3. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 2


Memphis, US
          

Yet the poll on this site( I will try to find it) showed NX2 being used by more members than Adobe, ofcoarse that could be due to the price. But everyone has a different comfort zone and I feel NX2 is much easier to use, but everyone has different likes.

Most of the complaints I have seen are not the user interface but hardware vs software problems none of which I have ever had but I have not updated to Windows 7 or 64 bit so I might run into to these when I get a new computer but I am thinking of switching to a mac(oops thats another debate )

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Bob32 Silver Member Nikonian since 29th Jul 2007Fri 30-Jul-10 07:52 AM
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#4. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 3


Chico, US
          

Jim,

I switched from a Windows machine to an iMac 3-1/2 years ago, and I'm never going back!

Bob

  

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doneverly Registered since 26th Jul 2010Fri 30-Jul-10 09:33 AM
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#5. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 4


GB
          

I've been using NX2 (and its predecessors) ever since I got my D70 when it was a NEW kid on the block.

I have always used it alongside PS - there's no getting away from that - it needs PS but I don't need ACR.

ACR doesn't read my D700's sharpening, WB**, Picture Controls and some other things that I can't think of right now.

**Before you argue about WB check it for yourself by setting a K reading on your camera!

Why would I want to buy a camera that has all of these great features and then go using a RAW converter that doesn't recognise them?

Don

  

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expat Silver Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2010Fri 30-Jul-10 10:43 AM
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#6. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 5


Qawra St Pauls Bay, MT
          

Perhaps depends on level of expertise, NX2 suits my simple needs, tried Elements several times, cant be bothered trying to learn all that level stuff. I like to think of my photography as a record of whats there not what isnt, dont want to add skies or remove lamposts.
Not sure about the Windows problems, I switched to a new laptop with win 7 64 bit & have had no problems at all (except for the NEF codec but I installed the excellent Fast Picture Viewer instead, cheap, works, forget its there). All depends on what you want and how much time you want on a ocmputer and how much time you have to take photos.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 30-Jul-10 12:18 PM
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#7. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 5


Dumbarton, GB
          


>Why would I want to buy a camera that has all of these great
>features and then go using a RAW converter that doesn't
>recognise them?
>
>Don

Because a lot of photographers want to edit their images without a "baked in set of commands" The Adobe equivalent gets a good reputation for their features and it is a matter of choice which you use. You don't need to set the features in camera. They can be set identically in the computer. The problem a lot of users have is that they have to use NX2 to take advantage of the features set in the camera and NX2 is problematic to use which is well documented on this forum and others. Some don't have problems but the ones that do are constantly battling with the clunky programme and the usage isn't a pleasant one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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doneverly Registered since 26th Jul 2010Fri 30-Jul-10 12:34 PM
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#8. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 7
Fri 30-Jul-10 12:39 PM by doneverly

GB
          




I like to think of that "baked in set of commands" as a SENSIBLE starting point. In other words I'm trying to get my image right in-camera.

"You don't need to set the features in camera. They can be set identically in the computer".

Does that make us computer operators or photographers?

"The problem a lot of users have is that they have to use NX2 to take advantage of the features set in the camera and NX2 is problematic to use which is well documented on this forum and others".

Nikon - take note?

"Some don't have problems but the ones that do are constantly battling with the clunky programme and the usage isn't a pleasant one?"

I don't have problems - I don't find it clunky - I do find it to be a pleasant experience.

Maybe Nikon should quit putting Sharpening, WB**, Picture Controls etc into their cameras and make them cheaper by doing so. According to you, Bob, we don't need them - correct?

(**WB is never the same in ACR as set in camera. I use 5260K in-camera and ACR consistently tells me that I set 5050 with a variable amount of Hue. Is it reading the exif or what?)

Don

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 30-Jul-10 01:02 PM
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#9. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 8


Colorado Springs, US
          

Many of us do find it much easier to fine tune contrast, sharpening, rendering, etc. on a larger computer display after the shoot than a small, 3" LCD that's often difficult to see in daylight conditions. I'm one of them. In addition, many images require settings that are between the camera ones, so a program that's fast and flexible to use is important. Changing from a look for landscapes to a look for portraits with one fast click is pretty darn nice, as is the ability to do it for an entire folder in about the same amount of time. Does the fact that we prefer making those changes on a computer make us not photographers? I certainly don't think so, anymore than suggesting that those who want to use their camera controls to do the equivalent are too used to point and shoots. Either position is unfair, inaccurate and extreme.

Regarding the white balance settings, ACR and LR read the white balance information via a Nikon-provided software intermediary. The reason for the intermediary is that Nikon made an unfortunate and politically bad decision years back to encrypt their white balance information to make it more difficult for photographers to use other software. After negotiations Nikon and Adobe, they worked out this intermediate solution that isn't necessary with other brands of cameras. Since the two companies use a different representation of the white balance information (think of it as being a different coordinate system), degrees K end up different, but that doesn't mean the photos look like they have different white balances.

I've used NX since well before it came on the market and used Capture at times prior to that. I know what it can do and can't do. I've chosen to use LR instead due to what I perceive as important benefits, but that doesn't mean there isn't a case for photographers using NX. Ditto Capture One, DxO, Bibble, etc. I end up with a lot of software on my computer systems due to reviews for the podcast that Jason and I do, so I'm pretty fluent with all of them. They will all do a very good job if used correctly and as intended, but what works best for a specific person varies tremendously. Heck, even how a given photographer uses a specific program varies tremendously.

I wouldn't get too worked up over Thom's preferences on raw converters. They're his preferences and don't need to be yours. Given that he's a smart guy (he's been a guest on our podcast), I think he'd tell you the same thing. He's just telling you what he's using these days and why.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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hoops Registered since 21st Jul 2007Thu 12-Aug-10 10:17 PM
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#38. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 4


Denver, US
          

so...do you use NX2 to work with RAW photos?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Freewheeler10 Registered since 17th Apr 2008Fri 13-Aug-10 01:15 PM
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#39. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 38


Englewood, US
          

>so...do you use NX2 to work with RAW photos?

Don't know about Bob, but I sure do. I have the full Nikon Suite,
CNX2, ViewNX, NkTransfer, and Camera Control Pro on both platforms
here, (both on laptops and desktops) and I am much happier with the
utility and performance of all the applications on the Mac. I very seldom
shoot in Jpeg, 98% of my shooting is in RAW. After two years of using the
Nikon software on both platforms, 99% of my RAW processing is done on
the Mac. That being said, I also have Apple's Aperture application, and it
has an impressive list of capabilities and features, some of which are much
easier to manage in Aperture than in the Nikon apps. And, like everything
else Apple makes, Aperture interfaces perfectly with all the other Apple
applications.

'Nobody ever grows old merely by living a number of years. Years
wrinkle the skin, but to give up one's enthusiasm wrinkles the soul.'
___Romany saying

http://gallery.me.com/freewheeler
http://freewheeler10.blogspot.com/

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 30-Jul-10 02:49 PM
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#13. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 3


Dumbarton, GB
          

>Yet the poll on this site( I will try to find it) showed NX2
>being used by more members than Adobe, ofcoarse that could be
>due to the price. But everyone has a different comfort zone
>and I feel NX2 is much easier to use, but everyone has
>different likes.
>
>Most of the complaints I have seen are not the user interface
>but hardware vs software problems none of which I have ever
>had but I have not updated to Windows 7 or 64 bit so I might
>run into to these when I get a new computer but I am thinking
>of switching to a mac(oops thats another debate )
>
>Jim

At one time NX came free with the camera when it was bought which is one reason that a lot of users are still using it. They have persevered with it hoping that Nikon will solve the problems plaguing the software. It is perhaps ironic that there are no gripes with Viveza 2 and similar plug-ins. Perhaps their resources are going to perfect these bits of software. One poster commented about Thom getting it right in the field. If you look at the article then he uses a lot of different software, a lot more than the average photographer despite his experience and ability.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 30-Jul-10 04:35 PM
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#15. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 13


Paignton, GB
          

>At one time NX came free with the camera when it was bought
>which is one reason that a lot of users are still using it.
>They have persevered with it hoping that Nikon will solve the
>problems plaguing the software.

NX2 came free (as a special offer) with my D700. I persevere with it (a more accurate phrase would be that I continue to use it; "persevere" gives the impression that it's a struggle...) because it does what I need and hasn't suffered any faults or issues. There is certainly some room for improvement, but that applies to any piece of software ever designed.

I think the main point (as Rick makes above) is that everyone has their own requirements and preferences.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Sat 31-Jul-10 12:02 AM
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#18. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 15


Atlanta, US
          

I was at lunch recently with a group of 6 full time pros. The only reason they could give for using Photoshop was the learning curve. All of them were erxtremely proficient with Photoshop and using it as part of their livelihood. A learning curve of hundreds of hours to match their level of proficiency with CS5 was simply not an option.

I think that view applies to a lot of people. The decisions are completely different if you are expert with Photoshop and its plug ins. But if you are starting from scratch, NX2 is a pretty good product and can support some amazing editing.

I have a lot of respect for Rick's perspective as he has probably spent more time with most of these products and has a great perspective for comparison.

As a side note, I've wondered about how the programs compare. We have a free outing of the Atlanta Nikonians that will demo editing and workflow with NX2, CS5, and Lightroom on August 28. It should help refine our perspective and we'll have a number of posts with our observations.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Fri 30-Jul-10 10:22 PM
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#17. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 2
Fri 30-Jul-10 10:25 PM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

>If you go through this forum there are a lot of complaints
>regarding NX2 and very little, if any, regarding Camera RAW.

That could be because there is a preference for NX2 and many more users in this "Nikon Imaging" forum who are using it.

On another topic...

Post processing is over 50 years old, as is shooting with the intent of post processing. Think "Ansel Adams". Think "unsharp mask". Think "dodge and burn".

On another topic...

I think U Point technology is very useful. Photoshop + Nik plug-ins are something like $800 combined. NX2 is $200. That is one thing keeping me from moving from NX2 - much better value for the feature set I need in post.

Cheers,
Peter

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberFri 30-Jul-10 02:05 PM
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#10. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Well, here's a comment by an NX 1 user (yeah, you read that right 1.3.5 to be exact). "Bully for Thom but so what?"

My workflow is my workflow. That's not to say it doesn't evolve, but it's optimized for what I do and how I want my photos to be processed. I didn't come to that conclusion lightly - it took me years of experimentation since switching to digital in '99. I stopped at NX 1 because I didn't want to get into a ridiculous cycle of PC upgrades - I generally squeeze about 6-7 years out of a desktop - and NX 1 is doing what I needed to do. A major upgrade would have been neccessary no matter what software package I chose to RAW convert on beyond NX 1.

The fact that a noted photography pundit is switching brands is not an earth-shaking event. It doesn't help that Thom was one of the most visible users of Capture NX, but the reality is that time and tide wait for no shooter - you evolve or you stagnate. For him, it makes less sense to consume cycles waiting for NX 2 to do certain things where he could be using that time elsewhere. Note too that he's a WORKING photographer, so time really does equal money. The story varies if you're an enthusiast who occasionally gets a paid job, or a hobbyist who has plenty of time to take photos and post-process them.

Bottom line - it's not a big deal. What you should do as a photographer regardless of whether you're on Capture NX or some other package is be thinking critically about your workflow at all times. If time is important to you, evaluate what you're doing and think about where improvements might be made. That's the real lesson to be learned from Thom's article - and note he preaches that constantly since he's a big believer of time in the field spent shooting rather than being behind the PC post-processing.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 30-Jul-10 02:38 PM
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#11. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 10


Dumbarton, GB
          

Quote

I like to think of that "baked in set of commands" as a SENSIBLE starting point. In other words I'm trying to get my image right in-camera.

Unquote

The photographer sets the "baked in set of commands" so it isn't the camera getting it right. These settings are arbitrary and aren't part of the initial exposure the camera takes but are an intermediary step added by the photographer. The fact that they can be discarded in the computer proves that they weren't part of the camera's initial exposure.

Quote

Does that make us computer operators or photographers?

Unquote

To get good prints you have to be a good computer operator. No point in having a good camera and software and not having the skill to use them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberFri 30-Jul-10 02:46 PM
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#12. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 11


US
          

"Does that make us computer operators or photographers?"

Digital *forced* a lot of photographers to become good printers, so I would argue we are BOTH. When we were all hobbyists on film, those of us who relied on commercial labs, whether they be K-Mart or some boutique mail-order operation, had someone behind the development machine to do the work for us to deliver the end-state product. In converting to full digital, that level of control was restored back to the photographer, but not everyone was prepared for that fact. That's the one thing I keep hammering into novices I speak to and mentor - you cannot stop the excellence once the shutter has closed. You must tick and tie the process from capture to editing to delivery. In order to do that, you must come up with a sustainable, efficient workflow. Sounds more like a job than a hobby now right? You have to put in more sweat to get more than just snapshots.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
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Get out of the car.
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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Fri 30-Jul-10 03:05 PM
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#14. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


Tacoma, US
          

So what. I don't recommentd Thom Hogan. Same level of authority.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberFri 30-Jul-10 05:41 PM
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#16. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Just to put a stop to any ballyhoo , a direct quote from Thom's updated column today:

"Capture NX2 still does what it always did (unless, of course, you moved to a new version of your OS, in which case new issues may have turned up ;~). Thus, if your workflow uses it and you're happy, then keep using it. Nothing I wrote should change that. I didn't write "stop using Capture NX2," after all."

As the great Stan Lee writes, 'Nuff said.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
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Get out of the car.
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sevtcard Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Sat 31-Jul-10 01:51 AM
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#19. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


Brattleboro, US
          

i second covey22 - and would add that, in the end, it's the final product that counts - if it pleases your eye, then it doesn't matter how you got there....and if you can do it repeatedly, even better...a forum like this rightfully focus on the technical aspects of our work, though often at the expense of the creative part...NX2, despite the fact that it has intermittent, painful flaws, is an essential part of my workflow, one i've developed over time and one which i would only reluctantly part with...the rhythm of my work is part of the pleasure - and the work flow is the framework for the development portion of the rhythm i enjoy...that may be circular but it gets me to where i want to be...
mark
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Sat 31-Jul-10 08:08 AM
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#20. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


San Jose, US
          

I have found this thread interesting and although I am a Thom fan and use his D700 book, his opinion on NX2 as first quoted,not revised, does not matter to me. While not a professional. I have at least 5 years invested in learning photoshop and consider myself an advanced to expert user, yet NX2 has become my choice for RAW processing. While many seem to prefer LR, I have never liked it, and would always choose Photoshop over it, but for me NX2 gives me quicker results and I do want to use all the features I paid for in my camera. Many people share that view and that is why we have this forum. Those that don't use other SW.I still go to Photoshop for some special features but for 99% of my work NX2 is enough. So since I have both NX2 and CS5 extended we can't say I use NX2 because it is cheaper or because I go it for free-I didn't. And my investment in photoshop didn't keep me from using a tool I find more intuitive. So why do I use it, because I think it is a great tool that gives me excellent results with a minimum of time spent at the computer.I have no problems with my copy running on a home built Core 2 Duo desktop with 8 GB of RAM ans Win 7 64. But what works for me may not work for you. Only you can decide. But just because Adobe has been in the business for years and has thus become a standard does not mean great results cannot be had from other tools.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Ramd41 Silver Member Charter MemberSun 01-Aug-10 12:26 AM
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#21. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


Morristown, US
          

I don't quite get why some feel it's necessary to attack Tom Hogan's comment that he prefers ACR. He gave his reasons, and they're quite legitimate. NX2 isn't a volume converter; no one who has used it for any time can doubt that. For a pro, time is money. For many of us who work on one image at a time, the extra time that NX2 requires isn't a big deal, but for the busy pro it is.

Having said that, it's been a LONG time since NX2 has been updated. The features of other converters are passing it by. It's interface is old and tired. It unpredictably quits (at least on me). You can't have more than one photo, maybe two, open without it slowing down dramatically (and I have a reasonably recent Mac with 8 gigs of RAM, not state of the art, but surely enough to be able to support a competent converter).

I still use it and love many of it's features, but as Thom points out Nikon has a horrible software history with many orphaned pieces of software left for dead. In its arrogance it gives absolutely no indication whether NX2 will ever be upgraded. Surely an update to NX3 is due, but who knows. Maybe yes, maybe no. For now I'm sticking with it, but eventually time will have completely passed it bye and it will be time to move on. The new LR and ACR engine provides much better demosaicing and provides better image quality than ever before. The benefits of NX2, other than familiarity, are waning.

  

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sevtcard Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Sun 01-Aug-10 01:39 AM
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#22. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 21
Sun 01-Aug-10 01:40 AM by sevtcard

Brattleboro, US
          

well said...sad that our litany is so prosaic (and oft repeated)...nikon will do what it will do, and adobe will do what it will, as well... and we, well, we will be left with the detritus of their decisions (and of ours)...nonetheless, we will continue to make images that please us, whatever the method and modality (cs5 or nx2/3 {here's hoping})....
m
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Sun 01-Aug-10 12:44 PM
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#23. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 22
Sun 01-Aug-10 12:46 PM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

I beg to differ on a few points.

1. Thom Hogan is in the business of drawing visitors to his site. Thom is frequently quoted for his comments, rarely is he referenced as a photographer.

2. It may have been a while since Capture NX2 was updated, but the the interface was so far ahead of it's time that it is still ahead of the competition. Most of the features built into CNX2 are not available in Photoshop or Lightroom unless you purchase add-ins.

3. The Photoshop/Lightroom interface (layers/layers and more layers) is also old and antiquated. I've had PS since V6, now at CS4 and it really hasn't changed that much, just prettier.

4. CNX2 and PS will both batch process, but neither is really fast at it, so for volume production, I'd say neither fits the bill.I've tried DxO for batching, and it is easier, but no faster. I'm running a fast machine and it just takes time to convert 12-14MB raw files.

5. CNX 2 is no more likely to crash on my machine than PS CS4. I have occasional problems with both in about equal proportion to use. The lastest version of LR is apparently having problems, as well.

So could CNX2 stand to be upgraded, sure. Does it need a total overhaul, no. Could PS and LR stand improvement, yup.

So, everyone has their own workflow, and software that works best for them. Use it.

But starting a discussion by saying "so and so says" doesn't mean much to me. I come to this site to see that other Nikon users use,do and think, not to find out what some self-styled guru has to say.

This thread started with asking what CNX2 users though of Thom Hogan's comments. (I made mine and some people object to that.) It has digressed into the usual, tiring "which software is better" argument. One of the reason I lobbied for a separate CNX forum was to get away from that and focus on using the product.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 02-Aug-10 09:02 PM
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#26. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 23
Tue 03-Aug-10 01:34 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Mick, thanks for the comments.

I tend to agree with your take on this.

Photographs are individual moments in time, fiat and in some cases rote (Bride and Groom, Bride and Groom cutting cake etc...) and rendering them close to "as shot" is the paradox, IE expose for the bright or dark and get somewhere in between, and of course then there is the HDR semblance for every nuance which doesn't appeal to me personally.

There are folks who need to manage marketing and traffic to support a website commercially and as such, opinion writers can be instrumental in helping to diagnose and direct for the user base, comment upon trends, work up how-to manuals and so on but, it's still about the photograph.

Your illustration regarding processing time in either platform makes sense, and should one need to defragment, or run system check as routine housekeeping, these also take time so why would one (I, we they) be shocked if the imaging process takes time as well.

Given the comments above about work-flow, it should be taken into account when bidding a job, that there will be lag time involved and unless it's on time photojournalism to send across the cell phone, where a JPEG will suffice then again, to iterate, Mr. H has an agenda and uses X or Y.

I tend to read these threads as a coaching tool, and yes, my work has improved enough to chase down some charity gigs, with an immediate goal to being published/credited internationally in the short term.

It's a means to an end and creative satisfaction while playing nice with the other kids.

I respect Mr. H, and bought his book, which is encyclopedic, but as you said after a fashion, everyone puts on their pants one leg at a time.

Cheers,

Rob




I have solved the CNX issues of late and LR3 is still crashing, so go figure.

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Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Mon 02-Aug-10 03:10 AM
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#24. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 21
Mon 02-Aug-10 03:22 AM by James23p

Memphis, US
          

For me its not really attacking Thom like I said each has his opinion and Thom has his own work load and work flow. I do weddings and other events and never had NX2 slow me down. I guess I just look at it from if it works for you great and online personalities play little in my choice of gear. I tend to listen more to what is posted here than professional commentary sites like Thom or Ken.

As far as the canned in camera settings I love to use them since you can set something in the camera and decrease your PP time. If I do not like the look of the internal settings they can be changed since I shoot RAW. With my NEF/RAW I can do what ever I like but I really appreciate that NX2 reads ALL the data my D700 puts out.

Back to Thom he has an excellent site and great E-Books I just use a different work flow.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
www.nikonians.org




I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Mon 02-Aug-10 06:27 AM
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#25. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 21


Yorkshire, GB
          

>For a pro, time is money.
I would have thought income was important as well
If you produce 9,999 shots a week at 10 cents profit each then NX2 has limitations - part because there simply cannot be enough time to get the best out of every image.
If you start with no colour balance, sharpening, D lighting, contrast settings etc and take 100 shots a week then you can become a slave to post processing - especially if you shoot in varied conditions.
If you want to take full advantage of in camera white balance setting, sharpening, D lighting, contrast etc. suitable for most shots during a shoot with the bonus of loosing less file information than with other systems if you need to modify some shots - NX has no equal
If you want a quick and much more efficient way of applying local highlight and shadow detail, local sharpening, and local colour changes image by image NX has no equal. Many small volume high profit pros and many amateurs find NX is very good for this - and nothing comes near what it does well at the price.
If you want to do anything else then you need other software, in much the same way as some photographers need more than one lens.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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leolyons Registered since 21st Dec 2007Tue 03-Aug-10 08:34 AM
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#27. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 25


Folkestone, GB
          

I love NX2 - although I would not be without Photoshop for moving pixels around. However the regular crashes I get now I have a Windows 7 machine and the apparent unwillingness of Nikon to take this serously are driving me into the arms of other software manufacturers. On my very high spec machine NX2 is not really usuable any more except for the occasinal one off when I have to remember to save after every edit. I am beginning to think that Nikon have decided NX2 is not profitable and so are willing to let it wither and die.

Considering the number of people having problems with NX2 I would have thought Nikon could have at least made some public statement that they are working on the problems. Or did I miss this?

Mr Hogan's statement cannot but add to the number of users who will reconsider their commitment to NX2.

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Tue 03-Aug-10 06:10 PM
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#28. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 27


Tacoma, US
          

Do you think a major camera manufacturer would not have some software to convert their RAW files in a way they can control? Or will they simply delegate this to Adobe?

It seems to me Nikon invested in NIK to get CNX and a leg up on Canon in the software/RAW convertor department. I'm sure they are not trying to become software a giant. But would they give up on it and let Adobe control the processing? Or open source their RAW format? While the other DSLR manufactureres do what?

These aren't meant to be retorical questions. But I am curious where the computing side of digital imaging stops being of interest to the camera manufacturers.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberWed 04-Aug-10 01:57 PM
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#29. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 28


US
          

It seems to me Nikon invested in NIK to get CNX and a leg up on Canon in the software/RAW convertor department.

I'd be cautious of such statements. For the last 10 years or so (the timeline for when digital SLRs started to make in-roads with the consumer segment of the market), Canon bundled it's RAW converter free and clear with every DSLR they sold. No time limits, no trial codes, no strings attached. Granted, Canon's software wasn't the best-of-breed and it certainly wasn't positioned as a PhotoShop competitor. But it helped anchor loyalty in it's user base. That loyalty came easily when Canon users would compare the fact that Nikon was charging money for for full versions of Capture 3 and later version 4. To attribute Nikon's drive to improve Capture with Nik's assistance in order to overcome a free converter is erroneous.

No one is saying Nikon has to open it's format. But it's obvious that it cannot succeed as a software manufacturer with it's track record of previous products and it's lack of responsiveness both from a CRM and a development viewpoint. Nik, on the other hand, has benefited from it's initial relationship with Nikon. It got the neccessary visibility from the CNX collaborations and now enjoys the product muscle to integrate it's plug-ins with other photography suites. I suspect we'll see a parting of the ways soon between the two firms. Nik seems too modern and leading edge to subserve to the whims of Nikon Japan HQ much longer.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
Nikonians News - Fresh Everyday!

The Covey Blog!

My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Wed 04-Aug-10 02:18 PM
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#30. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 29


Tacoma, US
          

To attribute Nikon's drive to improve Capture with Nik's assistance in order to overcome a free converter is erroneous.

Not necessarily. By providing a superior product (Canon users are envious of CNX) you can charge something for it. And the price is certainly far less than PS or LR, especially when you factor in the plug-ins needed to compare. So offering a unique Photoshop competitor and charging a reasonable price for it is certainly a valid marketing strategy, although opinions would differ on whether is it the correct one.

So Nikon dumps CNX and Nik, what do they use for a replacement?

Frankly, I am glad that Nik and Nikon are not releasing annual tweaks to the program and asking for upgrade money (al a Adobe). CNX 2 was a significant upgrade over V1. I, for one, think there will be a V3 with major improvements over V2. That's my opinion, I could be wrong, and I would then be a very disappointed Nikon customer.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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leolyons Registered since 21st Dec 2007Wed 04-Aug-10 03:31 PM
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#31. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 30


Folkestone, GB
          

Don't tell Nikon but I probably would be willing to pay an upgrade price for V3 as I think CNX has sufficient advantages over LightRoom and Photoshop. I really don't want to be without it.

This is something Nikon may well have surmised and figure that they can therefore get away with their woeful response to NX/Window 7 problems.

I would want to be damn sure any future version was not going to freeze every ten minutes on a high spec 64-bit machine first though.

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Wed 04-Aug-10 09:40 PM
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#33. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 31


Tacoma, US
          

Maybe that's why it's taking so long. I'm no programmer, but converting an app to 64 bit is something I am told is neither easy nor cheap. Could it be they are trying to get it right?

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Sat 07-Aug-10 01:02 PM
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#36. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 33


Apex, US
          

I have been a long time user of Capture NX2 starting back with Capture 3. I really like my NEF-centric workflow based on Photo Mechanic and NX2 plus Nik Color Efex Pro. I have had some problems with NX2 and color management on the high performance video mode on my Lenovo W500 laptop. Nikon service did absolutely nothing for me. The best I got is that they notified the engineers in Japan. I have even been in direct contact with some developers in Nik, but still do not have a fix.

It has been over 8 months now, and I consider this problem a significant usability problem. A few weeks ago, I post processed a shoot and had 200 images ready to go -- or so I thought. Right when I was getting ready to burn a DVD to mail, I realized that I had my laptop set in the problematic video mode. I had to go back and readjust the white balance on the 200 pictures. I had to run several batch jobs because there were different lighting conditions and one set of changes did not work for all the images. This cost me several hours of extra work when I really didn't have much time to spare.

As a software developer by profession, I am fairly certain that if I could get access to the source I could debug this problem in a day or two, even though I know nothing about the code. All it takes is some focused attention on this specific problem. It boggles my mind that a pair of companies (Nik and Nikon) can provide such terrible support for a significant product offering.

It is quite puzzling how the politics between Nikon and Nik actually work. If either of these companies actually cared about making Capture NX2 a successful and competitive product, things would be quite different. There would be a technical support group that actually debugs problems and delivers fixes on a regular basis. Functional updates and enhancements would come every 9 to 12 months, and I'm not necessarily talking about full releases requiring upgrades to be purchased. I'm talking about fix packs the improve the stability and robustness of the product that may or may not have functional enhancements. I have not heard of anybody reporting a problem with NX2 and actually receiving a fix for that problem.

I am finding it difficult to overcome my own inertia. I should switch to a new post processing workflow, but for some reason I have not done so yet. I keep hoping that I will get a fix and/or I hear about a NX3 beta (one that magically includes a fix for my color management problem) -- anything that implies that there is still a viable future for this product. It would be great if Nik and/or Nikon gave us some sort of indication about what they plan to do with this product. Is it dead on the vine? Is there actually a major enhancement in the works? What?

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberWed 04-Aug-10 08:43 PM
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#32. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 30
Wed 04-Aug-10 08:56 PM by Covey22

US
          

Canon users are envious of CNX

They can be as envious as they want, but the reality is that they will either be satisfied with the RAW conversion capability in the bundled s/w or they will go to an alternate like PS. But by bundling the s/w (such as it is), Canon achieved what Nikon failed to do - incent a number of the customer base from moving to competing products. "Free" has a power all it's own. Not to mention it strongly appeals to the psyche makeup of the consumer that says, "Yes, I deserve that as part of my purchase." Separate from technical and performance issues, both those aspects are what have dogged Nikon Capture as a product brand ever since Version 3.x.

So Nikon dumps CNX and Nik, what do they use for a replacement?

They don't *have* to replace it. All you have to do is look at the history of Nikon's software development:

*TH already covered Photo Secretary and Nikon Scan - what's notable is that the F5 and most of the USB based scanners weren't end-of-life yet when Nikon pulled the plug on the software.

*Nikon View, which lasted a fairly good four years or so, was replaced by PictureProject, which tripled the size of the product and resource requirements while taking away functionality.

*Trying to cash in on CNX 1's success, Nikon then kills PictureProject in less than 24 months and replaces it with the boondoggles known as Transfer NX and View NX. Other than the suffixes, the latter two have nothing in common with CNX's quality or innovation.

*What's really ironic with the whole NV/PP/T-NX/V-NX situation is that Nikon View is still listed on the Current Versions page on Nikon's Technical Support Page. And while PP has a red line that reads "DO NOT use Picture Project to open or edit NEF RAW images from Nikon DSLR cameras produced after the D70," Nikon View can still read and edit RAW files past the D70, at least up to the D200 - and it's the OLDER of the two programs. How inconsistent is that?

*When launching CNX 1, Nikon culled out the remote control function in Capture 4.x, first with Camera Control Pro and now Camera Control Pro 2. Note the last two were separated by less than 18 months.

*A remote control product for Coolpixes called "CoolControl" was highly marketed, yet barely lasted six months on the Japanese market and it's doubtful it ever made it's way across to the US. For a while it was an urban myth among Nikon dealers, even with the product page on Nikon Global site prominently bookmarked (now gone).

The bottom-line: In looking at their track record and by not releasing timely updates to CNX2, Nikon is silently acknowledging that software development is not a core part of their competency or business model. They have de-facto ceded customer and mindshare to their competitors.

As for the other side of the partnership, Nik has very little incentive to stay in the game with Nikon as I mentioned before. Given their success plugging into other workstream products, why would they drive themselves crazy trying to stick with an antiquated and unresponsive development and support model forced upon them by Nikon HQ? I want to believe that CNX has a future because it's a reasonable alternative to overpriced stuff like CS5. But the odds say otherwise.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
Nikonians News - Fresh Everyday!

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My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Wed 04-Aug-10 09:49 PM
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#34. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 32


Tacoma, US
          

Well, Armondo, only time will tell.

Perhaps we all ought to switch to Canon, or at least delete CNX from our systems and send the disks in protest to Nikon. Are you no longer a CNX user?

Frankly, though, I'll stick with it until it no longer runs on my system or won't process the files from my camera. Because for all it's faults, I can still do more, faster, and better with CNX than I can with PS or LR.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberThu 05-Aug-10 12:00 AM
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#35. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 34
Thu 05-Aug-10 12:05 AM by Covey22

US
          

Mick,

It's a free country. Do as you please. As for me, I managed to get CNX 1 working under Win 7, but that's only through sheer technical persistence. The saga of CNX will define my converter choice next year.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
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Get out of the car.
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Pick the right mid-tone this time.

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 07:04 AM
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#40. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 34


Dumbarton, GB
          

It is rather ironic that Nik have updated Viveza 2 to windows 64 bit but have yet to do so with NX2. I would have thought the priority would have been the reverse?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 11:52 AM
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#41. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 40


Kingston, CA
          

>It is rather ironic that Nik have updated Viveza 2 to windows
>64 bit but have yet to do so with NX2. I would have thought
>the priority would have been the reverse?

I have worked in software development before. Keep in mind that they may have first ported Viveza to 64 bit for a variety of reasons, including:

- their software developers familiar with the code were available
- a third party code library used in Viveza became available
- the port of NX2 is more complex and will require more time

I just want to point out that to a software company, there are factors other than marketing decisions that can influence what gets ported first.

Cheers,
Peter

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Mon 16-Aug-10 12:26 PM
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#42. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 41


Colorado Springs, US
          

Nik is only the developer of a portion of NX2. Much comes directly from Nikon.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Mon 16-Aug-10 04:24 PM
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#43. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 42


Knoxville, US
          

My guess is the part that deals with u-point. I know from other places that Nikon is the sole developer of the Develop part with the raw conversion.

I've used Capture 4 - NX2 but I'm almost totally ready to switch to Camera Raw. It's finally good enough with image results but NX2 is just frustrating to use. I sure hope NX3 comes out soon so I can reconsider. I always liked NX idea but the product is not well supported, runs far slower than competitors, and the interface lacks some fundamental basics (like using the enter key to accept a dialog).

I'm sure there's a NX3 being run in beta somewhere but the people using it are under NDA and I haven't heard any leaks yet.

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Sun 08-Aug-10 07:14 AM
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#37. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 32
Sun 08-Aug-10 07:21 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Gulp, hyperventilation now, like waiting for the clock to wind down on a lopsided NFL game.

It is remarkable that companies like Nikon and NIK, are flat ignoring the huge and deeply inve$ted PROFESSIONAL u$erba$e.

Perhaps we should find one of our Nikonian brethren who would like a crack at a class action wake up call to the folks in New York and Japan? Or gather a petition for the FTC or CPSC?

(In generalization) With regard to business and solutions (not as human beings) the oriental ethos, Asian mindset, Eastern way of business whatever, has always been a mystery to me having worked at an executive level, under a few bosses who were born over on that side of the Pacific.

These folks get it into their heads that "People will buy horse meat if you tell them how good it tastes, now go out and sell these (widgets) and get me some numbers", even when faced with failed, under designed products (direct experience speaking here) and will not embrace exacting changes (eating crow and fixing it) in marketing.

Taking wrong advice, rinse, repeat, and eventually it comes down to just being stubborn and intransigent when logic should apply.

I would have thought better of Nikon, especially given the immense cartel they wield, simply astounding.

Rob


PS, LR3 is still a crashing clown car, useless and $300 down the vortex to the counter or clockwise depending on where the Equator is relative to one's privy.

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 09:32 PM
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#44. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 37


Wellington, NZ
          

>Gulp, hyperventilation now, like waiting for the clock to
>wind down on a lopsided NFL game.
>
>It is remarkable that companies like Nikon and NIK, are flat
>ignoring the huge and deeply inve$ted PROFESSIONAL u$erba$e.
>
>Perhaps we should find one of our Nikonian brethren who would
>like a crack at a class action wake up call to the folks in
>New York and Japan? Or gather a petition for the FTC or
>CPSC?
>
>(In generalization) With regard to business and solutions (not
>as human beings) the oriental ethos, Asian mindset, Eastern
>way of business whatever, has always been a mystery to me
>having worked at an executive level, under a few bosses who
>were born over on that side of the Pacific.
>
>These folks get it into their heads that "People will buy
>horse meat if you tell them how good it tastes, now go out and
>sell these (widgets) and get me some numbers", even when
>faced with failed, under designed products (direct experience
>speaking here) and will not embrace exacting changes (eating
>crow and fixing it) in marketing.
>
>Taking wrong advice, rinse, repeat, and eventually it comes
>down to just being stubborn and intransigent when logic
>should apply.
>
>I would have thought better of Nikon, especially given the
>immense cartel they wield, simply astounding.
>
>Rob
>
>
>PS, LR3 is still a crashing clown car, useless and $300 down
>the vortex to the counter or clockwise depending on where the
>Equator is relative to one's privy.

Never experienced any crashes in LR1, 2 or 3. 3 Has been particularly solid and fast for me.

My opinion - the various camera manufacturers should standardise on DNG (or another open format) and be done with developing their own RAW converters. They're optic and camera manufacturers, not software developers and at the end of the day, in all reality Photoshop and Lightroom *are* superior tools to Capture NX etc. I can't speak for the Canon RAW converter as I've not used but all of the Canon users I know use Photoshop, Lightroom or Aperture, as do photographers I know who use other cameras. If DNG is good enough for Leica, it's good enough for me

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Mon 16-Aug-10 10:19 PM
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#45. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 44


Tacoma, US
          

Well, as a CNX user I would say that Photoshop and Lightroom are superior in terms of numbers of users, but not, to me, in terms of useability, usefullness and fitting into my way of working. But this has all been argued before.

I hope everyone doesn't settle on one standard format with one common app that dominates. My god, look what Microsoft has done. The innovation in Operating Systems, Word Processing and Spreadsheets has disappeared. Adobe is trying to do the same with image editing, desktop publishing and web content creation.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 10:27 PM
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#46. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 45


Wellington, NZ
          

Well obviously there's always going to be a few dissidents, such as yourself But DNG is supported outside Adobe products - DxO, Aperture, Capture One for examples. I strongly believe that a standard RAW format is really quite important for photographers to easily move their photographs between tools as and when they need. Any editing to the RAW file in Capture NX or Lightroom or Aperture is simply not recognised in another application which is an utterly ridiculous situation to be in, in this day and age. Standards are vitally important.

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 16-Aug-10 10:45 PM
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#48. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 45


West of Santa Monica, US
          

What he said...

Rob

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 16-Aug-10 10:43 PM
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#47. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 44
Mon 16-Aug-10 10:59 PM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Welly, you make some good points.

The open format, good ( )-ing luck this ain't MIDI and 1985 and DNG is good enough for Leica which make perfect sense, translated from the Teutonic (joke).
I would venture there are many Nikon folks who might counter your *are* admonitions however, and I'll leave that up to the others for any tit for tat.

This then reverts to Chevy and Ford, likes dislikes.

I'm simply stating what happened to me and apparently a lot of other users who purchased LR3.

That you are not having issues is great but for the "tools" LR3 offers I have gone shopping for another like platform, and yes could use the $300 back for that.

“Like" in the sense that cataloging, uploading with watermarks, file management, general housekeeping etc are what I actually needed from LR in the first place, such as:

http://store.acdsee.com/store/acd/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/productID.156603200/pgm.12507400

http://www.idimager.com/

http://www.photools.com/products.php, all offer.

Otherwise, my work related experience with writing and executing ad copy and the manipulation of content, was always with Corel to begin with, so I never really got the Adobe bug. We didn’t use a MAC either except for packaging design.

That being said, for the masterful tasks so far (crashes fairly much gone now) the NIK written platform does a fantastic job and my Adobe excursion, not so much.

To an extent, should camera folks should let NIK or another party dictate the format? Perhaps but Mick's post above makes a valid point as to exclusivity, sort of the Net Neutrality version of camera codec. Hmmm.....

I wasn't criticizing LR so much as I was stating it's no better than anything else if it's crash prone.

Now as I get past this stage of software learning curve, I may be in need of outside expertise to have a print job rendered off site and it would be with someone like:

http://www.nasheditions.com/

http://www.mfatalon.com/

The dictates and strictures needed to render an image at shops like these listed, preclude no format, or ask how the image was arrived at, only that it be malleable within the guidelines for mastering at museum level on a "mortgageable" class Epson printer.

Where everything else is separate but equal, the world of imaging and the discourse of any platform's true believers deserve credence.

I just happen to prefer CNX and not LR at this time.

Thanks,

Rob

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Mon 16-Aug-10 10:58 PM
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#49. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 47


Wellington, NZ
          

Rob,

I'm just being overly biased in my tool of choice Capture NX2 is a very decent application and I used to use it myself a lot. I would like to continue to use it but it doesn't fit into my particular workflow, which is a shame. There's much I prefer about CNX than Lightroom. My main point was - and I know Nikon themselves don't specifically write Capture NX2 - that camera manufacturers should concentrate on what they do best.

I suppose photography is a little different in the way you buy into a "system" (Canon, Nikon, 4/3rds etc.) and so possibly those guys don't see the relevance of opening up their file formats to other parties, much that they don't open their TTL methodology etc. Which is a great shame.

And I would absolutely hate for the software options to be limited to Lightroom or Photoshop even though those are the applications I currently use and will use for the foreseeable future. I'm always ready to jump ship to a better workflow tool but unfortunately it seems that having a proprietary RAW format means that's not really practical or possible, unless I want to go back and re-edit all my photographs. Not something I particularly desire.

Cheers,

Welly

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Mon 16-Aug-10 11:08 PM
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#50. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 49


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Nah, not overly biased, many blokes here on Nikon-land forums use those tools, or Photo Mechanic and so on.

You are obviating the shortcomings of said NX as well, and cheering for the team that scores points for you.

My needs are mid level and for now, the $800 to jump into Corel again or CS5 would be better spent on the 24mm f1.4.

I love quoting Bob Greenburg, the DVNP Photographer " A JPEG shot at 2MP's can be vectored in software and blown up large enough to be a bill board".

Thanks for the discussion.

Rob



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sevtcard Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Tue 17-Aug-10 12:08 AM
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#51. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 49


Brattleboro, US
          

>My main point was - and I
>know Nikon themselves don't specifically write Capture NX2 -
>that camera manufacturers should concentrate on what they do
>best.

there's the rub...kodak now makes digital cameras over film, because capturing light is what they do...in the digital age, the distinction between lens and film manufacturing has blurred into non-existence...nikon makes digital cameras: without an adequate method for retrieving the captured light from their sensor, their product is useless...hence, cnx, a very efficient and much less complex tool than photoshop (which is really a tool for graphic artists)...i agree with you, on the other hand, that a common standard would ultimately be very useful and would open up the field to needed competition and innovation...something nik/nikon seem to want to avoid with cnx...their public face, in fact, seems to suggest that they want to stick their head, irritate and perhaps permanently alienate their user base...
mark
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Tue 17-Aug-10 08:00 AM
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#54. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 51


West of Santa Monica, US
          

NIK sent a promo e-mail out last week, my reply actually made the sales manager hand it off from the staffer to the CEO.

I wasn't assignating blame, just really letting them know that despite any NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement), both companies were ultimately and needlessly foisting pain like a cartel onto their very loyal professional base.

I refer to it as sales prevention, very similar to the ostrich pose you allude to.

It was very much respectful, cynical, candid, pointed and otherwise professional.

Rob



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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Tue 17-Aug-10 12:27 PM
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#56. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 54


Apex, US
          

I got the same (I think) e-mail promo from Nik and sent a response explaining some of the support problems I've had with NX2. I have not gotten any indication that they even received my comments. If you are in contact with the CEO and he is interested in hearing some valid gripes about service, please put me in touch with him. Or better yet, point him and his staffers at some of these threads on Nikonians to make sure they understand some of the reliability and service reputation problems they need to address.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Tue 17-Aug-10 12:40 PM
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#57. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 56


Tacoma, US
          

The response that I got from Nik regarding future improvements to CNX was to talk to Nikon.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Tue 17-Aug-10 05:07 PM
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#60. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 56


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Danny,

I did not communicate directly with the CEO, his subordinates managed the back and forth and at my request, the CEO was informed and I'll paste in the comments a bit later today for edification.

Thanks,

Rob

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Wed 18-Aug-10 07:14 AM
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#61. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 56
Wed 18-Aug-10 07:16 AM by Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
          

Danny,

I referred to this and the other extensive threads, including your offer to help figure out the issues.

I also mentioned the potentially disastrous, should some lawyer's daughter find her wedding ruined post event, by loss of product directly related to CNX crashing, class action, calling the CPSC or FTC, all were elegantly delivered via rapier e-mail.

And I quote:

There is one Nikon user who swears he’ll be able to fix the CNX issue, if someone would just let him have a crack at the basic. Why not have him do a trade for the advice, bring him in house and tell Nikon you developed a patch, they can release an upgrade at N/C?

I quote: “As a software developer by profession, I am fairly certain that if I could get access to the source I could debug this problem in a day or two, even though I know nothing about the code. All it takes is some focused attention on this specific problem. It boggles my mind that a pair of companies (Nik and Nikon) can provide such terrible support for a significant product offering.” This would be on the Hogan thread, reply number 33."

And this in their second effort reply by management: "As you have requested, I have copied Mr. Slater, our CEO and President, on this email. In addition to this, I stopped by his office and spoke to him briefly about your concerns. He is aware of your views and he takes all feedback seriously. Additionally, he wants you to know that he regularly discusses customer comments and views with all of the product and management teams."

I guess the balls in their court (Nikon's) trouble is it sun faded because it's been sitting on the foul line for a couple of seasons.

NIK on the other hand really does give a rip and likely has deaf- eared English is not their first language team partners in the land of the rising sun.

Perhaps you should call NIK and suggest an expenses supported photo trip on I 40, go south in OKC into west TX, and go through Carlsbad Caverns, then hit Guadalupe NP on the way to EPT and I 10, ending up in San Diego long enough to be a "a work for hire" and run through with their team.

Cheers,

Rob

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Wed 18-Aug-10 12:02 PM
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#62. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 61
Wed 18-Aug-10 12:03 PM by TiggerGTO

Apex, US
          

You wrote: Perhaps you should call NIK and suggest an expenses supported photo trip on I 40, go south in OKC into west TX, and go through Carlsbad Caverns, then hit Guadalupe NP on the way to EPT and I 10, ending up in San Diego long enough to be a "a work for hire" and run through with their team.

An interesting idea, but I doubt that it could/would happen. After all, I do have a full time job and a family.

I haven't tried calling Nik because I don't want to waste time sitting on hold or spend the effort to get to somebody who understands the problem or can access the right people to get it fixed. I have exchanged e-mails with one of the top developers in Nik. He has tried sending me a debug version that generates log messages, but the messages didn't seem to help them figure out the problem. This guy is probably primarily concerned with whatever new software Nik is working on, whether it is NX3 or one of Nik's other products. So, I doubt that customer service issues are very high on his priority list. I appreciate the fact that he did try to help and that he sounds concerned about quality issues. Unfortunately, most of the people I have tried contacting about this particular software defect don't seem to care or are completely unable to help.

I have never gotten even the smallest bit of help for any software issues from Nikon. I had problem with a failed install for an update one time. Nikon service said, "Huh?" I found out how to fix it with just a little searching on the web.

When I built my current photo PC and put 64-bit Vista on it, I ran into some of the same problems others where having, like out of memory and sporadic crashing. When they found out I was on 64-bit Vista, they said that's unsupported and wouldn't even look into the problem.

After moving to 64-bit Windows 7, NX2 has been fairly stable for me, but I am still having the color management problem on my laptop. The guy that I worked with through the Nikon's support site tried, but whenever he sent stuff to the developers in Japan, it was like sending stuff into a black hole. I never got any questions or responses from Japan to indicate that they were investigating the problem at all.

So, Nik seems very interested in the success of NX2 but they are not set up to service it properly. Nikon owns the service responsibility but doesn't seem to care about it at all. It's too bad that this product is a joint effort. I think NX2 (and its users) would be much better off if it was all Nik.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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Covey22 Moderator Expert in various fields including aviation photography Awarded for his contributions to the Resources and The Nikonian eZine Charter MemberWed 18-Aug-10 03:06 PM
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#63. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 62


US
          

So, Nik seems very interested in the success of NX2 but they are not set up to service it properly. Nikon owns the service responsibility but doesn't seem to care about it at all. It's too bad that this product is a joint effort. I think NX2 (and its users) would be much better off if it was all Nik.

It's quite the compliment that Nik is making efforts to help facilitate customer support requests such as yours. An all-Nik product could never happen because Nikon will not abstract or outright provide NEF conversion code to third-parties. As it was, Nik probably executed some very restrictive NDAs just to collaborate on NX1.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
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My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Wed 18-Aug-10 06:34 PM
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#64. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 62


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Danny,

I was not serious about the road trip, it was my writer's nature and tongue in cheek.

I did suggest that they (NIK) simply rewrite a new program and market it separately if ever.

Odds are they are focused on the plug-in business regardless.

Thanks for the feedback.

Rob

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 17-Aug-10 04:55 AM
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#52. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 44


San Jose, US
          

"My opinion - the various camera manufacturers should standardise on DNG (or another open format) and be done with developing their own RAW converters. They're optic and camera manufacturers, not software developers and at the end of the day, in all reality Photoshop and Lightroom *are* superior tools to Capture NX etc. I can't speak for the Canon RAW converter as I've not used but all of the Canon users I know use Photoshop, Lightroom or Aperture, as do photographers I know who use other cameras. If DNG is good enough for Leica, it's good enough for me "

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I see many flaws in your logic. For example, since we have had digital cameras for quite some time, and all they are are computers with optic inputs and digital outputs, I do not agree that camera manufactures are not software developers. There cameras would not work if they were not. Most hardware built today, name the product, includes an integrated software component.Therefore no one understands the workings of the hardware and software better than the manufacturer, and all camera manufacturers have proprietary code that is not shared with others or require a purchased developers kit.

Adobe on the other hand does not make cameras. They started out as a tool for illustrators who were using drum scans of film images and needed to have a means that would allow them to edit these images, and color correct them primarily for publications. Over a very long time, more than 20 years, the product evolved to what it is today.That of course is Photoshop CS5. Yet Photoshop is overkill for most photographers and Adobe started making simpler products like LR for them.

DNG is a proprietary standard that Adobe makes available to others, but it is not a universal standard for RAW images, and I don't believe it is superior to the NEF format.

So you need to have a better argument to make Adobe your choice, and there are many pro's and con's to that decision, but you need to pick the tool that you like the best and works with your work flow.

So if you have trouble with NX2, I don't, then you may want to use another post processing tool, but no tool is without limitations, whether it is one that is difficult to master like PS or works directly on the NEF like NX2 and is thus slower or requires more computing power.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Tue 17-Aug-10 05:07 AM
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#53. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 52


Wellington, NZ
          

I don't have trouble with NX2, it just doesn't fit into my workflow. I like it as an individual product.

My point, is that whether the industry picks DNG or some other format, there *needs* to be a standardised RAW file format. As I say, it's utterly ridiculous that I can't edit a raw file in one application and see those changes in another application.

DNG is actually an open file format. I'm not entirely sure it can be described as proprietary. All the information on DNG is out there for other developers to use. But whether or not DNG is the format that should be standardised is up for debate but SOME format should be standardised upon, whatever it is.

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Tue 17-Aug-10 01:01 PM
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#58. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 53


Apex, US
          

DNG is proprietary. Adobe owns the format and is the only entity that can change or update it. To quote Adobe's DNG page, it is "a publicly documented and readily available specification." It is not an open file format. There is a distinct and important difference.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Tue 17-Aug-10 04:30 PM
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#59. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 58


Chicago, US
          

Adobe has handed the DNG format standardization to the ISO for being made into a true ISO standard, but that only documents what be included but does not stop a vendor from adding other features in their version that might not be available to other vendor's converters.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Tue 17-Aug-10 08:12 AM
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#55. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 52


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Welly,

As I mentioned: "I would venture there are many Nikon folks who might counter your *are* admonitions however, and I'll leave that up to the others for any tit for tat."

Now Bob is fairly lucid in an Intel, MS and Mac sort of way, and so it goes.

Thanks Bob,

Rob


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lightroom700 Registered since 05th Aug 2010Tue 24-Aug-10 06:39 AM
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#65. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 0


Bellevue, US
          

Not sure how Thom feels in regards to NX2, but for me.....it is a terrible piece of software. Very "glitchy",terrible design,very slow. You would think after this period of time the developers would get this software right! Lightroom 3 is light years better. Forget the new DAM design in LR3 (which is brilliant)....the editing alone is so much nicer. U-Point tech. is NX2's only saving grace, but I have the NIK software bundle running in LR3. In my opinion I would not use NX2 if someone gave it to me for free. Sure, NX2 is cheaper but LR3 is such a better piece of software in my opinion. I have tried it many times in the past up to the current version.....inferior. It simply does not cut it for me. I am sure I will offend a lot of you guys with my posting and I am sorry for that. Nikon can and should do better. My D700 deserves better and it is getting it from LR3.

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cliddell Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Oct 2006Tue 24-Aug-10 11:57 AM
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#66. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 65


Pietermaritzburg, ZA
          

Hi Lightroom700,
" I am sure I will offend a lot of you guys with my posting and I am sorry for that."
===

No offence taken :>) - I am glad you find Lightroom useful but, don't hold back, tell us what you really think of NX2.

Regards,
Clive Liddell
Pietermaritzburg
South Africa

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Tue 24-Aug-10 04:56 PM
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#67. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 65


San Jose, US
          

That is why there are so many post processing options out there, so people can use what works for them. I use CNX2 and CS5 Extended, but find I get quicker better results with CNX2. So enjoy your LR3 if it works for you.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Tue 24-Aug-10 05:37 PM
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#68. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 65


Atlanta, US
          

I think what makes Hogan's comment interesting is that he is a skilled user of NX2 and understands how to make it work effectively. There are plenty of people who don't use a given product - or have tried NX2 and always disliked it. But that's not as constructive as understanding why a change might come from a skilled user.

Perhaps a separate thread in the appropriate forum about the pros and cons of Lightroom 3 would allow a better discussion.


Eric Bowles
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JerryLoSardo Gold Member Charter MemberThu 26-Aug-10 01:48 AM
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#69. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 65


Frederick, US
          

Lightroom700,

You're not alone, I couldn't agree more. I was an NX user for over 3 years and just got tired of the bugs and sluggishness. Not sure it has the same issue today, but the last straw for me was when users had to follow a ridiculous work-around just to get NX to print in the correct configuration (landscape or portrait). I migrated to LR and never looked back (well, that's not exactly true; I do look back a little. After all, I did read your post in the Nikon Software forum! I guess I'm hoping to read about a major new release of NX that fixes all of the bugs and shortcomings).

To paraphrase Bob Baldassano, it's good to have a choice.

Jerry LoSardo
Frederick, MD

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Thu 26-Aug-10 05:43 AM
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#70. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 69


San Jose, US
          

Yes it is good to have a choice. The main reason I still am happy with CNX2 is it is the only solution that saves all of my edit steps in the original NEF and not some sidecar. And I don't have to jump through hoops by using DNG, which is an awkward solution. Any time I want to do something in PS CS5, I just move a 16 bit TIFF their and work on it. So I have the best of both worlds and have a world class NEF RAW editor in the process that reads all of my camera settings and lets me adjust them after the fact. You just can't do that in Lightroom, but I have no problem with anyone who wants to use LR for their choice, I just don't want them to tell me that somehow my choice of CNX2 is inferior.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

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Welly Registered since 01st Apr 2009Thu 26-Aug-10 06:07 AM
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#71. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 70


Wellington, NZ
          

>Yes it is good to have a choice. The main reason I still am
>happy with CNX2 is it is the only solution that saves all of
>my edit steps in the original NEF and not some sidecar. And I
>don't have to jump through hoops by using DNG, which is an
>awkward solution. Any time I want to do something in PS CS5, I
>just move a 16 bit TIFF their and work on it. So I have the
>best of both worlds and have a world class NEF RAW editor in
>the process that reads all of my camera settings and lets me
>adjust them after the fact. You just can't do that in
>Lightroom, but I have no problem with anyone who wants to use
>LR for their choice, I just don't want them to tell me that
>somehow my choice of CNX2 is inferior.

I'm not sure how the XMP sidecar is much of a disadvantage. It can be useful to have a backup of your edits. Also, it's optional, you can turn that off and it'll save it in the database, or if you use DNG files (I do) it'll store the edits in the DNG file. I use DNG files as I can edit changes in either Photoshop or Lightroom and the edits will be seen in either application. Or I can export them at TIFF files from Lightroom and edit the file in Photoshop with the amends made in Lightroom.

The only thing I can't do, which is a shame, is work with picture controls and other camera specific settings. It is horses for courses and I suppose it's down to whatever you get used to. I did get used to CNX2 while I was trying out the trial and I did quite enjoy using it but it doesn't work in any reasonable way with a cataloguing application (except perhaps Bridge, at a stretch) and I didn't want to deal with multiple programs to manage and edit my images. I do 75% of my edits in Lightroom and occasionally go out to Photoshop or Silver Efex for everything else. Works great for me.

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Thu 26-Aug-10 08:03 AM
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#72. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 70


Dumbarton, GB
          

So I have the
>best of both worlds and have a world class NEF RAW editor in
>the process that reads all of my camera settings and lets me
>adjust them after the fact. You just can't do that in
>Lightroom, but I have no problem with anyone who wants to use
>LR for their choice, I just don't want them to tell me that
>somehow my choice of CNX2 is inferior.

World class? Your choice is your choice but the description you used will have some scratching their heads. They can't all be wrong about the shortcomings?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Thu 26-Aug-10 11:26 AM
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#73. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 72
Thu 26-Aug-10 03:52 PM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

>
>World class? Your choice is your choice but the description
>you used will have some scratching their heads. They can't all
>be wrong about the shortcomings?
>
And neither can you. I also find CNX to be a "world class" application. It is powerful, simple to use, and I have no more trouble with it's stability and speed than most other apps. Basically, you seem to have no respect for the opion of those of us that like the product.

I find Photoshop to be a "PIA" application. It is bloated, complicated (generally takes many more steps to accomplish what I can do in CNX) and requires far more resources to maintain. It crashes as well. It costs more, and requires spending even more money on plug-in and add-ons to make it work easier or better. Plus it screws up the exif and IPTC data in my image files by overwriting what I have entered using my preferred browser, Photo Mechanic. That's why I use it only as a last resort for very specific purposes. Less than 5% of my images ever see PS. Lightroom suffers from many of the same deficiencies.

So we could continue this discussion ad infinitum (it is already ad nausium), but since this is the forum to discuss working with Nikon software, and you simply want to bash it, why don't we just stick to purpose of this forum. If you have something to say about use of CNX that contributes to enhancing our abilities, great, contribute a post. If not, don't.

I'm taking myself off the subscription list for this thread.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Thu 26-Aug-10 02:33 PM
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#74. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 73


Dumbarton, GB
          

> I'm taking myself off the subscription list for this thread.

I think your comments about Photoshop are way over the top and off topic into the bargain. You are the one taking the opportunity to bash something that wasn't up for discussion in the first place. I don't have my head in the clouds with respect to NX2. I use and like Viveza 2 and other Nikon products so I am not anti Nikon. World class is certainly not - imo - a description that NX2 deserves and if Nikon finally get it right I will go back to using it. Meanwhile I will stick to Photoshop which despite your difficulties in using it is the industry standard. As to you telling anyone as to what to post then you are well out of order.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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doneverly Registered since 26th Jul 2010Thu 26-Aug-10 03:02 PM
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#75. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 74


GB
          

Why does anyone who is "anti NX2" hang around here?

D

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Thu 26-Aug-10 03:36 PM
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#77. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 75


Dumbarton, GB
          

>Why does anyone who is "anti NX2" hang around
>here?
>
>D
>
>

If that was aimed at me then you are way off the mark. I was a fan and I wish - along with many others - that Nikon would solve the problems and I would once more use the program. It seems that too many people take it personal when the program is criticised. It looks as if they also realise the shortcomings but for whatever reason are unable to admit there is a problem. When Thom Hogan raises the issue then there must be something that isn't right? BTW I haven't - unlike some - been personal in any of my posts, only forthright which I won't apologise for.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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sevtcard Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Thu 26-Aug-10 05:20 PM
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#79. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 77
Thu 26-Aug-10 05:23 PM by sevtcard

Brattleboro, US
          

would have to agree with you...this forum is about an exchange of ideas - whether pro or con, it is about heterogeneity of opinion, not homogeneity: that would be boring and of little use.

we should all be able to have our say without the risk of personal retribution....i use cnx and not photoshop...that doesn't stop me from being irritated at nikon's lack of consumer responsiveness and the various well discussed bugs in its programming and its overall lack of meaningful support to high-end users...there may well come a point when i can no longer justify using it, but i haven't reached that point yet...

and, as others have pointed out, it comes down to your workflow and to what makes you comfortable and produces images that you like...the final goal, after all, is the image...who cares how you got there?
mark
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Thu 26-Aug-10 03:11 PM
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#76. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2! Caution RANT!)"
In response to Reply # 74


Chicago, US
          

Many of the Nik PhotoShop plug-ins are already included in Capture NX2 and that is why there is additional Nik product for NX2 for those plug-ins.

Software, operating systems, and computers are all personal choices. They are different and that difference is only good or bad in the eye of the beholder.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Thu 26-Aug-10 06:56 PM
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#80. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 72
Thu 26-Aug-10 06:59 PM by gkaiseril

Chicago, US
          

You might want to read about a Canon shooter that uses Capture NX2, "Canon Pro workflow includes NX2".

Also Nikon has a financial interest in Nik Software, but does not own it nor does Nikon own their work product.

Software is a user choice and all software is different and only the specific end user can make the determination if he/she thinks the differences are good or bad.

Even with the introduction of a new version of a standard piece of software can be very different from previous releases and long time supportive users could change their opinion.

George
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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Thu 26-Aug-10 04:35 PM
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#78. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 70


US
          

I also think Nikon's method of embedding the edits and, more importantly, an updated very high quality JPG in the NEF file is a good feature, and tightly related to why I use it and not a PhotoShop solution.

There is a huge problem, though, with other third party apps. Nikon apparently does not document or "expose" their edits, including IPTC and XMP data, such that 3rd party developers can properly deal with it and inter-operate with it.

Nikon's practices (proprietary embedding of those edits), in principle, create a situation where we the users are beholden to Nikon for our work flow needs yet Nikon does not make a cataloging app, for example, so we are left hanging or trying to cobble together various apps.

An example is PhotoMechanic (a high end browser) and iMatch (a cataloger). PhotoMechanic (the Camerabits developers) seems to be comfortable with updating the NEF files. It is not difficult to get PhotoMechanic and ViewNX and Capture NX to interoperate such that color classes and ratings, and other IPTC updates are seen by each program, and updated such that all 3 in trun recognize those subsequent edits.

But add iMatch in and it more or less falls apart.

Although iMatch will read and update the NEF directly, the iMatch developer is not very confident, putting a huge bold disclaimer in red in the docs to use that feature at your own risk. That puts me, the user, in a strange position. Although some people seem to have the 3 apps working together and fully inter-operating I've never been able to do so (without allowing iMatch to update the NEF) and other people with problems are left at some point with something like "what Nikon does in the NEF is proprietary so I'm just doing the best I can" or some such thing.

I would like to see Nikon provide an option to maintain an XMP sidecar file in parallel with what they already do. They would have to give us the option of which set of data has priority for it's data reads- the internal NEF data or the sidecar. And this is what PhotoMechanic and iMatch do in order to accommodate these various somewhat contradictory systems. That would allow other developers to stay out of the NEF file and still provide interoperability with these apps. And as I already mentioned, it can be argued that it's "not Nikon's problem" to provide this interoperability for other products but in that case Nikon needs to provide a full suite of work flow products, including a cataloger. Otherwise that argument doesn't hold water.

_________________________________
Neil


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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Fri 27-Aug-10 01:21 AM
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#81. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 78
Fri 27-Aug-10 02:21 AM by robsb

San Jose, US
          

Awhile back when I was researching ADL and the implications of it making changes to the NEF, the Nikon Rep told me that any company that bought the Nikon SW kit would be able to see and edit Nikon's settings. Most 3rd party vendors have chosen not to do that, even though it is available. My comments about world class RAW processing was addressing the fact that CNX2 does not have to guess at any of the Nikon settings and since Nikon knows all of the algorithms it uses in the camera for processing set controls like ADL, CNX2 is currently the only RAW SW that can process it properly. I think that makes it world class for Nikon cameras. Adobe gives you a tool that can be easily used by a broader range of cameras. So while I have no problems with people discussing problems they are having with CNX2 in this forum, I think we separated the forums so we could discuss CNX2 issues here and not discuss how some other tool is better or worse than CNX2. If someone thinks the other tools better meet their needs then they should use those tools and participate in those forums.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005Fri 27-Aug-10 01:45 AM
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#82. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 81


Atlanta, US
          

Well put, Bob.

I think the unique aspect to NX2 when originally deployed was Nik's U-point technology. That technology allowed a great deal of flexibility in selective editing - and improvements in speed of editing. In the subsequent 3 years other programs have developed their own version of selective editing, and as a result the NX2 advantage is less unique. In fact other programs each have their own advantages.

For most of us, it is tough to truly become expert in multiple programs. Its especially hard to remain expert through multipole upgrades and releases. That makes it hard to say one program is better than another. And as Bob suggests, that's a debate that has no end, so we are better off focusing on the merits of an individual program, its strengths, and weaknesses.


Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
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James23p Moderator Awarded for his wide variety of skills, a true generalist both in film and digital photography Nikonian since 25th Apr 2004Fri 27-Aug-10 04:32 AM
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#83. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 82


Memphis, US
          

"For most of us, it is tough to truly become expert in multiple programs"

Bingo Eric nailed it! For me I learned NX because I found it easier than Photoshop plus the cost was alot less and I found with the info NX could read that Adobe could not made my PP faster. When NX2 came out with the additional tools and healing type brush I fully moved to NX2 and the new ViewNX2 is so much better than the older version I am totally using Nikon/Nik software. Plus I hope the new Nik HDR software is similar to other Nik software and then I will have a full plate of editing software since I have nik filter plug ins for NX2.

For me the time to sit and learn Adobe CS when it seems to upgrade ever other year at a huge cost is not worth my time. For others their shooting style may need Adobe CS but I find my combination of NX2/ViewNX2 and Nik Filters I have what I need and I just preordered the nik HDR program. It seems to me Nik and Nikon are creating a total system and are continuing to fix and upgrade the product.

Jim

Share, Learn and Inspire
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I will use film until the last roll and last lab are gone. Go Navy

  

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Baaker Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Aug 2009Fri 27-Aug-10 08:08 AM
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#84. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 83


Dumbarton, GB
          

Comparing NX2 to Adobe CS is not a fair comparison. You only have to learn Camera raw if you want an equivalent raw processor. They aren't the same and each has advantages over each other. What you choose to use is a personal choice. What Nikon doesn't have is a pixel editor which many believe is needed to compliment a raw processor. Without one you are limited as to what you can do with an image. Viveza 2 is a very good plug in but falls short of being a fully blown pixel editor. You don't need to upgrade Adobe CS every year. Adobe CS2 or 3 will be suffice for anyone, except possibly a professional earning a living. Too many posters are looking at this post subjectively from a Nikon point of view and their feathers are getting ruffled for no good reason. When Nikon finally produce a 64 bit version it will be BETA - as all updates are - and it will probably take them six months to iron out the problems, if ever, and that is along way in the future. Anyone experiencing problems has a long wait before being able to enjoy the programme running as it should. This isn't anti NX2, just hoping for a better product that rivals Viveza 2 for stability.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43019448@N04/

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Fri 27-Aug-10 09:53 AM
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#85. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 81


US
          

>> the Nikon Rep told me that any company that bought the Nikon SW kit would be able to see and edit Nikon's settings.

That is true in theory... iMatch uses the Nikon API kit. It's not clear to me if iMatch actually uses the Nikon APIs to do the metadata updates, or if the Nikon API's fully support that functionality. In practice there seem to have been chronic issues with timely updates for new cameras. As I understand it, iMatch still does not support the D300s, for example, when using the Nikon software because no Nikon API updates have been forthcoming. The developer seems to think that Nikon has essentially abandoned the API because no updates have been issued for quite some time (since the D300). That based on discussions in the iMatch support forums.

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

  

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TiggerGTO Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006Fri 27-Aug-10 12:28 PM
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#86. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 85


Apex, US
          

You have to figure that there is a reason why most of the other software vendors refuse to use the Nikon SDK.

This gets to the heart of my biggest complaint about Nikon's software and raw files. They do not do anything to help integrate into a cohesive end-to-end workflow. You shoot raw for many obvious reasons. The camera setting provide lots of flexibility and control over your images. NX2 is a great raw processor which I really like despite its problems. I don't really like the browser in NX2 nor do I care for ViewNX. PhotoMechanic works well with NX2 because of a lot of hard work from the guys at CameraBits.

But that's where it all stops. If you need to do any significant pixel editing, you have to jump into a completely different and incompatible workflow with no way to come back to NX2. The same goes for if you want to utilize any of the other wonderful software packages that are out there. Color Efex Pro is a great package and I really like what it brings to NX2. What about the other plug-ins like Silver Efex, Dfine, Sharpener Pro and the new HDR plug-in? What about other packages like Topaz, AlienWare, PhotoMatix, and tons of others? To use any of those, you have to fork your workflow. Printing? You really have to go to other solutions via TIF. Cataloging seems to be nearly impossible without converting to a different file format.

Somebody mentioned they were told by Nik that NX3 involves a re-architecture of the software to enable it to work with other Nik plug-ins. I sincerely hope that is true. I also hope that it opens up the NEF based workflow by enabling other products to be utilized without forcing a one way trip into a different file format.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009Fri 27-Aug-10 12:44 PM
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#88. "RE: Thom Hogan no longer recommends NX2!"
In response to Reply # 85


Gainesville, US
          

>The developer seems to think that Nikon has
>essentially abandoned the API because no updates have been
>issued for quite some time (since the D300). That based on
>discussions in the iMatch support forums.

I have had the opportunity to examine Nikon's SDK. It is, as you might imagine, complex, complete, professionally done using standard programming practices, contains detailed data structure diagrams (file formats), and examples of implementation. The version I reviewed is a couple of months old, so does not cover the D3100. It does cover the D100, D2H, D70, D70s, D2X, D2Hs, D50, D200, D2Xs, D80, D40, D40X, D300, D3, D60, D700, D90, D3X, D5000, D3000, D300S and D3S.

Rob Puller
my Nikonians gallery

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 27-Aug-10 12:34 PM
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#87. "Time to retire thread?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 27-Aug-10 12:35 PM by walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
          

Guys, this has been a pretty emotional topic, with a lot of salvos both ways. Given that many have stated their opinions on both sides and are probably unlikely to influence each other in either direction, how about we get back to new threads on other topics. Some of those could be subsets of these discussions, but let's try to avoid ones that attack each other's preferences. Agree? Thanks!

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Digital postprocessing & workflow (Public) Nikon & Nikonians Imaging Software (Public) topic #2963 Previous topic | Next topic


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