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Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS Post-Processing & Workflow (Public) Nikon & Nikonians Software (Public) topic #1651
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Subject: "NX2 support - should we hold our breath" Previous topic | Next topic
sevtcard Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009 Thu 11-Mar-10 11:05 PM
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"NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
Thu 11-Mar-10 11:18 PM by sevtcard


there has been an active discussion (among many) about a specific NX2 problem introduced by TiggerGTO. since that conversation seemed to be drifting a bit into whether Nikon was supporting its software or not, i thought it would be interesting to ask the question more formally - what is your experience with Nikon and are they meeting expectations in terms of software support??

i have had an open issue with them for some time about the memory leak problem, which mostly has been characterized by long periods of silence from them. i was especially discouraged by TiggerGTO's latest response on this topic: "Don't hold your breath about software development doing anything..." i have given them multiple references to links in this forum in hopes of illustrating the broad and multiple needs of the community (of course, they probably follow these entries already) - today I received this from Nikon support: "I am sorry but we can not comment on internet postings. We respond to each customer that contacts Nikon directly. All information has been forwarded to the software engineers." this feels like being blown off - the distinct impression that others seem to have garnered as well. i admit i had been a bit more optimistic - but i'm feeling less so these days.

i have never really been a PS user, but i am strongly considering a switch if things don't improve...(plus it integrates silver efex pro)

Mark

R Mark Burke
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath TiggerGTO Silver Member
11th Mar 2010
1
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath sevtcard Silver Member
12th Mar 2010
2
     Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Doug M
12th Mar 2010
3
     Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath TiggerGTO Silver Member
12th Mar 2010
5
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Pursuit Silver Member
12th Mar 2010
4
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014
12th Mar 2010
6
     Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Pursuit Silver Member
13th Mar 2010
9
          Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community
15th Mar 2010
17
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Len Shepherd Gold Member
13th Mar 2010
7
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath sidewinder Silver Member
13th Mar 2010
8
     Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath expat Silver Member
13th Mar 2010
10
     Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Robp Gold Member
14th Mar 2010
11
          Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath sidewinder Silver Member
14th Mar 2010
12
               Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Robp Gold Member
14th Mar 2010
13
                    Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath sidewinder Silver Member
15th Mar 2010
14
                         Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Robp Gold Member
15th Mar 2010
15
                              Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath sidewinder Silver Member
15th Mar 2010
16
                                   Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Robp Gold Member
16th Mar 2010
19
Reply message RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath Robp Gold Member
16th Mar 2010
18

TiggerGTO Silver Member  Apex, US  Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006 Thu 11-Mar-10 11:46 PM
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#1. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 0



My purpose for starting the thread about my NX2 color management problem was to see if I could get help finding a solution. It has turned into a long drawn out thread because I've been trying to keep people updated on my progress. I apologize if I have been overly negative or verbose about my problems with Nikon software support.

Having said that...

I think we would be much better off if all aspects of the software were placed primarily in Nik's hands. Let the software company design, develop, market and service the software. Let Nikon do what it knows how to do well which is make wonderful cameras and lenses.

Anything we can say hare about Nikon's level of commitment to their current software offerings is mostly speculation and guesswork. It would be great if somebody from Nikon or Nik would actively participate here. But, without some sort of official word from Nikon, we're just basing this discussion on some reports about bad service experiences.

I don't want to start bashing Nikon service. I really do like NX2, and want it to succeed and improve. However, I have been extremely frustrated and disappointed by the poor software support I have gotten from Nikon. I am eagerly awaiting the release of Capture NX3, but I probably will not be one of the first to get it.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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sevtcard Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009 Fri 12-Mar-10 12:59 AM
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#2. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 1
Fri 12-Mar-10 01:23 AM by sevtcard


i couldn't agree with you more that this topic might engender speculative answers (which almost kept me from posting this thread), but the fact is, for a service provider, reputation is mostly based upon rumor, innuendo, word-of-mouth and speculation...you have expressed legitimate exasperation at their service...i think Nikon/Nik needs to hear the rumors or speculations and complaints, as those may directly affect their sales and might also have an impact on their product delivery and support to us, the end users...and to the extent that i, you and others have used their products and accessed their support, they are less than satisfactory in their performance. that will no doubt have a bearing on our collective future purchasing decisions...if they get that message, they might also improve their response and their product...or they might not...in which case, my decision is made...

R Mark Burke
www.broadwallphotography.com

  

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Doug M   US  Registered since 27th Jan 2009 Fri 12-Mar-10 02:40 AM
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#3. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 2



"i have never really been a PS user, but i am strongly considering a switch if things don't improve"

The reason I bought Capture NX2 was because the support for PS was so bad.PS does allot more but NX2 is better for my needs.I use it 90% of the time and use PS when NX2 does not do what I need. Doug M

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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TiggerGTO Silver Member  Apex, US  Nikonian since 22nd Feb 2006 Fri 12-Mar-10 06:56 PM
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#5. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 2



It would be great if somebody from Nikon and/or Nik gets this input and takes positive actions as a result.

Danny
A Nikonian in North Carolina

  

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Pursuit Silver Member  Kihei, US  Nikonian since 04th Jan 2003 Fri 12-Mar-10 03:03 AM
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#4. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 12-Mar-10 03:05 AM by Pursuit


Having recently purchased a new 64-bit Windows 7 system for image editing, I was thinking I would be upgrading from Capture NX to Capture NX2. However, in the absence of any form of vision statement from Nikon regarding their NX product line (such as support expectations and future release expectations), and because of the problems others have been describing here trying to use NX2 on Windows 7, I have decided to hold off any plans to upgrade.

I have now installed Capture NX on my 64-bit Windows 7 system and will use it until Nikon provides some motivation for changing. I don't use Capture NX for much - mostly just for it's RAW editing capabilities of my D3 NEF files - before switching to Photoshop for the bulk of my editing. That much, at least, seems to work fine on Windows 7. I don't know if I would have problems if I tried using Capture NX for all of my image editing needs.

Jim Kelly
Seasonally 808

  

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robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014   San Jose, US  Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006 Fri 12-Mar-10 11:29 PM
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#6. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 4



Jim there is such a vast difference in performance and power between NX and NX2, most of us have found we don't need to go to Photoshop at all. I think you are misreading the amount of problems with Win 7 64 bit. Aside from Danny's problem, which is hardware specific, the only issue seems to be a memory leak which I think has been there for a very long time. This is not a constant problem and closing the program occasionally takes care of it. I have encountered it a very few times in all the hours I spend in NX2. Yes a new version will probably come out this year, but I am sure owners of NX2 will get a better upgrade break than NX owners.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

  

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Pursuit Silver Member  Kihei, US  Nikonian since 04th Jan 2003 Sat 13-Mar-10 09:11 AM
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#9. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 6



That's a good point Bob. I have gotten into a rut and maybe I should consider taking the time to get out of it. I am very proficient in Photoshop, but I like Capture NX's raw conversion better than Adobe's ACR. So I only tend to use Capture NX for raw conversion and then jump to Photoshop. I played around with the 60-day trial of NX2 and didn't see a big advantage in the one step that I perform there. I had really only considered spending the money for NX2 because I thought NX wouldn't run on 64-bit Windows 7. When I found I could install Capture NX and run it just fine I decided to stick with what I know.

Jim Kelly
Seasonally 808

  

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ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community   Atlanta, US  Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005 Mon 15-Mar-10 07:51 PM
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#17. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 9



Jim

The functionality of NX2 is far superior to NX even if you are simply doing RAW conversions. The main new function is Picture Controls, but there are other functions that are useful. I've also seen a demonstration of Protect Highlights that recovered detail in a RAW image that I could not recover later using other tools.

I'm in essentially the same boat as Bob - I use NX2 for almost all my editing. I've found that it can handle 95% of what I could do in Photoshop in a fraction of the time and with better file economy.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member  Yorkshire, UK  Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003 Sat 13-Mar-10 07:26 AM
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#7. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 0



It is a bit difficult to comment on "speculation" - and links that no longer work.
As a starting point Nikon DSLR's do not have the widest colour gamut - which restricts the ability of any post process system or printer to produce some colours accurate.
Mac support is slow to implement - but that is true of many other hardware producers. Surely those upgrading operating systems on "day 1" availability should expect teething problems! If you are a computer nerd by all means upgrade instantly - if you are passionate about photography hold back until hardware manufacturers catch up - which is getting close for Windows 7.
Why "full PS"?
Current Elements, PaintShop Pro and NX2 do just about everything and advanced post processor needs except specialist actions like focus stacking.
NX2 performs extremely well for moderate and medium file quantity shooters, and is priced significantly lower in UK than Nik's competing products.
Nikon UK have said the next incarnation of NX2 is likely to have video editing as a function - which makes sense.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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sidewinder Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010 Sat 13-Mar-10 07:54 AM
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#8. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 7
Sat 13-Mar-10 10:44 PM by sidewinder


>As a starting point Nikon DSLR's do not have the widest colour gamut- which restricts the ability of any post process system or printer to
>produce some colours accurate.

Len,

What does this mean? A RAW file has no color gamut. Most, if not all, of the Nikon dSLR cameras support both sRGB and Adobe RGB. What cameras support a color gamut wider than Adobe RGB?

Scott

  

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expat Silver Member  Qawra St Pauls Bay, MT  Nikonian since 09th Mar 2010 Sat 13-Mar-10 12:39 PM
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#10. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 8



I have always been pleased with the speed and helpfulness of support from Nikon Europe but now very dissapointed that they have no interest in the Nikon NEF codec which does not work for Win 7 64 bit.
I have downloaded an independent codec but that should not have been neccasary considering all the Nikon / NX users in the world. This is especially annoying as where I live anyway I think all new laptops are 64 bit (not up to date with desktops)

  

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Robp Gold Member  Gainesville, US  Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009 Sun 14-Mar-10 04:43 AM
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#11. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 8



Scott,

Actually, the raw file does have a color gamut, which is the extent of the colors that the camera can manage, but it does not have an assigned color space such as sRGB or aRGB. Digital cameras can only detect the amount of color that their sensors can measure and this is limited by technology (the space is getting larger as time permits better technologies to develop).

Color Spaces such as sRGB, aRGB or ProPhoto RGB define Red, Blue and Green (colors cameras are designed to measure) as the primary colors which will be mixed to produce other colors and define limits to the size of the color space so that the size may be broken up into different amounts of Red, Blue or Green to be mixed. The limits set by the color spaces were established to allow the camera's data to be easily interpreted by software and to cover the space the camera could measure. Better measurement allowed larger color spaces; hence the progression to larger color spaces (sRGB -> aRGB -> ProPhoto RGB).

You, the user of the RAW file, may assign the color space of your choice if your editing software and printer will handle it. Larger color spaces allow you to show more colors if the camera has been able to measure those contained in the space and if your monitor and printer can produce them. Problems arise when this is not true, so you can play it safe with sRGB, potentially have more color detail in aRGB, or even more detail if you don't hit (or can cover) problem areas in ProPhoto.

Rob

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sidewinder Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010 Sun 14-Mar-10 05:54 AM
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#12. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 11



Rob,

Okay. Is the RAW file gamut size controlled by the bit depth it is recorded at? Where is this defined? Is a 12-bit RAW file color gamut larger or smaller than Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB? 14-bit?

Scott

  

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Robp Gold Member  Gainesville, US  Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009 Sun 14-Mar-10 02:33 PM
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#13. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 12



Scott,

12-bit => 4,096 hues of a color, 14-bit => 16,384 hues. What do you think?

Here's a little teaser for you. Does 14-bit imply a larger color space or is the space the same size but more dense with detail.

How about doing a little research and reporting back to us. Here's a good place to start:

www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/prophoto-rgb.shtml

Have fun! There is a lot of stuff to know.

Rob

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sidewinder Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010 Mon 15-Mar-10 01:06 AM
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#14. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 13



Rob,

I read that link prior to my last post. Frankly, it created more questions that it answered. I found this too:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/700458/

Very interesting reading.

Unfortunately, I can find nothing that definitely says that the color space for a 12-bit or 14-bit image is different or the same. I do know that 14-bit allows for more granularity in the colors used.

Nor can I find any details on the size of the color space supported by Nikon cameras.

This was interesting but didn't really answer the camera color space question either:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm

Any more hints or enlightening links or information for me?

The bottom line is I can find nothing that suggests the Nikon camera color space is a limiting factor as Len seemed to suggest.

Scott

  

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Robp Gold Member  Gainesville, US  Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009 Mon 15-Mar-10 04:26 PM
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#15. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 14



Scott, I agree that your references are very interesting and that a definitive answer regarding any difference in 12 or 14-bit color space is difficult to find. Bob Johnson wrote a couple of articles comparing 12 and 14-bit resolution. Start with this URL and continue to his subsequent write-up by selecting "NEXT" at the bottom of the article:

www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/14-bit-raw-12-bit-part-two.html

Caveat to the following: I am not an "Expert" and have only limited credentials.

I've done a lot of research on the topic and have synthesized my opinion. Here are my conclusions:
1. The camera's gamut is fixed for any image it produces. The image's gamut may vary with lighting conditions or use of HDR techniques.
2. The camera's gamut exceeds the size of an sRGB, and probably an aRGB, color space for recent high-quality cameras (generally any that offer 14-bit resolution).
3. 14-bit resolution provides more detail (better color resolution) within the camera's gamut than does 12-bit.
4. The size of the camera's gamut is not affected by choice of 12 or 14-bit resolution.

So how do my conclusions affect my choices?
A. I shoot 14-bit RAW unless I need re-focusing speed with continuous shooting, e.g., for birds in flight.
B. I process in the ProPhoto color space, softproof for out-of-gamut colors and correct as I can (use black point compensation, alter highlight protection, etc.)

Rob

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sidewinder Silver Member  US  Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010 Mon 15-Mar-10 05:48 PM
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#16. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 15



Rob,

Thank you. I came to the same conclusions you did for 1, 3, and 4. I do as you do in regards to A and B.

Yes, I did find those Bob Johnson articles too. They solidified my choice to shoot 14-bit RAW when FPS was not required. But, they did not answer these questions I have: What is the Nikon camera (D300s, D700, D3) color space and how does it compare in size to sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB? Is the Nikon color space a limiting factor for viewing or printing?

I am still on the hunt...

Scott

  

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Robp Gold Member  Gainesville, US  Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009 Tue 16-Mar-10 02:00 PM
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#19. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 16



Scott,

Please see my message to Mark about diverging a bit from his original questions. I have some answers for you that should be substantiated with a lengthy discussion, so I'll start a new thread this afternoon discussing the Camera Color Space.

For now, without supporting data, I'll state that a RAW file from a D700 inhabits a color space very slightly larger than Adobe RGB, much larger than sRGB, and much smaller than ProPhoto RGB. It is generally larger than most printer's color space.

Here's a hint at substantiation:



The ghost image image represents the color space allocated by NX2 to an image from my D700. The color image represents the print profile of an Epson 3880 printer using glossy photo paper (relatively large color space).

Rob

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Robp Gold Member  Gainesville, US  Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009 Tue 16-Mar-10 01:17 PM
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#18. "RE: NX2 support - should we hold our breath"
In response to Reply # 0



Mark,

I apologize for sort of hijacking this thread for a discussion of gamuts and color spaces with Scott. I'll start a new thread on that topic this afternoon.

To respond to your original question, Nikon has not met my expectations in terms of software support. I have had much the same experience as you; they have recently informed me that my issues have been passed on to Nikon - Japan.

That said, Adobe has not provided much better support to me on an issue I had with Photoshop (it was not automatically updating). They did finally get it fixed, however.

Regarding your comment that your issue with NX2 involved a memory leak; I opened another thread to discuss that topic. I looked at memory usage during an edit session and concluded that NX2 did not have a true memory leak. On the other hand, it is a memory hog.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I think NX2 is workable and handles editing of NEF files far better than anything else. I'd like to see it improved (there is an NX3 wish list thread currently running) and will try to work with NIK/Nikon Support if they will let me.

Rob

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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