nikonians

Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.


Sign up Login
Home Forums Articles Galleries News Workshops Shop Recommended
members
All members Wiki Contests Vouchers Apps Newsletter THE NIKONIAN™ Magazines Podcasts Fundraising
VR8

Ottawa, CA
774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author
VR8 Silver Member Nikonian since 04th May 2008
Tue 02-Apr-13 08:29 AM

I posted on this in the D7100 forum and it was confirmed that the in camera flash respects the Auto ISO settings while external but in hot shoe flashes do not and use, often double the ISO. Does anyone know why or how to get around this. It seems strange that this was not fixed on the newer D7100 model.
My work around is Easy ISO, but it would be nice to use Auto ISO with fill Flash in my nature work.

Thanks


Victor

My website: www.rakmilphotography.com

mklass

Tacoma, US
6744 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#1. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 0

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Tue 02-Apr-13 01:13 PM | edited Tue 02-Apr-13 01:14 PM by mklass

As far as I know, Auto ISO was never designed to account for flash. It was designed to compensate for low ambient light when a specific minimum shutter speed is desired. So there is nothing to "fix" as it works as designed.

By trying to use flash with Auto ISO, you are attempting to do something that the camera is not designed to do. You are introducing another variable in the exposure that the camera cannot account for. If you see it "working" it is by accident, not design. (The onboard flash is pretty weak, so, depending on the scene, it may not be contributing more than a little fill, anyway.)

There have been many threads about this in the past, but people seem intent on ignoring the design limits of Auto-ISO and complain that it is broken.

Mick
http://www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

quenton8

Toronto, CA
1427 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#2. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 1

quenton8 Silver Member Awarded for bringing his experience to the Nikonians community helping members with printing and the use of post-processing software from the perspective of an IT professional. Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 11th Apr 2010
Tue 02-Apr-13 05:01 PM

The user manual for the 7100 specifically states "ISO sensitivity is adjusted appropriately when flash is used" (page 81).

So unless there is a firmware problem, or unless the user manual lies, it SHOULD work.

I don't have one to try it -- yet!

----
Dennis Smith.

VR8

Ottawa, CA
774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#3. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 2

VR8 Silver Member Nikonian since 04th May 2008
Tue 02-Apr-13 05:08 PM

The mystery thickens. As soon as I can I will re-read the manual and re-test in different modes.


Victor

My website: www.rakmilphotography.com

mklass

Tacoma, US
6744 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#4. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 2

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Tue 02-Apr-13 05:08 PM

I wonder what "appropriately" means. What gets adjusted in what order?

Mick
http://www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

Chris Platt

Newburg, US
481 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#5. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 4

Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012
Tue 02-Apr-13 11:03 PM

The D7000 manual says the same thing. There's nothing like putting a flash on a camera and trying - which I just did. I mounted an SB800 on my D7000 and took a few shots of a small plant. I took shots without flash, and with TTL BL and TTL. It wasn't a very controlled series, but with flash, the camera chose lower ISO settings than it did without it. TTL and TTL BL ISOs were closer to each other, but since these were handheld shots and my framing varied slightly from shot to shot, I can't draw any conclusions other than the camera must have appropriately adjusted ISO along with everything else, since every shot was properly exposed as I adjusted the shutter speed from 1/250 to 1/3200.

Visit my gallery.

mklass

Tacoma, US
6744 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#6. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 5

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Wed 03-Apr-13 12:18 AM

Interesting. I assume you also had flash sync speed set to Auto FP to shoot those high SS. Or was there just a lot of ambient light?

Mick
http://www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#7. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 0

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Wed 03-Apr-13 12:45 AM

>I posted on this in the D7100 forum and it was confirmed that
>the in camera flash respects the Auto ISO settings while
>external but in hot shoe flashes do not and use, often double
>the ISO. Does anyone know why or how to get around this. It
>seems strange that this was not fixed on the newer D7100
>model.
>My work around is Easy ISO, but it would be nice to use Auto
>ISO with fill Flash in my nature work.

There have been dozens of threads over the year on this. It is clear that using Auto ISO does not work in any expected manor with flash.

The results have definitely improved with each newer camera, and maybe they will get something that works well eventually, but for now, I think it is best to simply avoid using Auto ISO with flash.

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Chris Platt

Newburg, US
481 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#8. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 6

Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012
Wed 03-Apr-13 01:16 AM

Yes auto FP.

Visit my gallery.

VR8

Ottawa, CA
774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#9. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 7

VR8 Silver Member Nikonian since 04th May 2008
Wed 03-Apr-13 11:06 AM

Sorry to have opened an old thread, one would have hoped this to have been solved. Will keep my eyes open to see if this evolves. My own tests last night showed inconsistency. Thanks

Victor

My website: www.rakmilphotography.com

mklass

Tacoma, US
6744 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#10. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 9

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Wed 03-Apr-13 01:24 PM

Victor,

Solved is the wrong word. There is nothing wrong. Auto ISO works as designed -for non-flash situations. When you add flash to the equation, you are trying to use a tool improperly.

People who say Auto ISO doesn't work because they can't use it with flash are like people who say their wrench is defective because it can't drive a nail.

Mick
http://www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

VR8

Ottawa, CA
774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#11. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 10

VR8 Silver Member Nikonian since 04th May 2008
Wed 03-Apr-13 04:10 PM

My apologies for a misconception. Point taken. I was hoping to use flash at high shutter speeds while having some flexibility with aperture. I was using easy ISO, shutter speed in excess of 1/1000th, ISO 100, with the variables being ISO and aperture. I wanted to reduce those variables to aperture alone. Clearly that is not feasible. I understand others want this functionality as well, hence a solution to a desire. Not a solution to something broken.

Thanks and regards,


Victor

My website: www.rakmilphotography.com

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#12. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 11

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Wed 03-Apr-13 06:42 PM

>My apologies for a misconception. Point taken. I was hoping
>to use flash at high shutter speeds while having some
>flexibility with aperture. I was using easy ISO, shutter speed
>in excess of 1/1000th, ISO 100, with the variables being ISO
>and aperture. I wanted to reduce those variables to aperture
>alone. Clearly that is not feasible. I understand others want
>this functionality as well, hence a solution to a desire. Not
>a solution to something broken.
>
>Thanks and regards,
>
>
>Victor
>
>My website: www.rakmilphotography.com

I understand your need. You can come close to your desired solution by simply using Regular TTL (Not TTL-BL), Auto FP High Speed Sync, ISO to whatever you want, Camera Manual mode and set the shutter on 1/1000 and the aperture to whatever you want.

Then, the Regular TTL flash system will compute the correct flash power for that combination. This will not work for TTL-BL.

The Regular TTL flash system will compute the correct flash power for whatever combination of ISO, Aperture, and Shutter you chose.

However, since it is Regular TTL, it will not take the ambient into consideration, so you must choose settings that will make a dark image without the flash. If you want to allow some ambient into the shot, then you have to reduce the FEC by around 1 ev.

And it's up to you to make sure you don't pick a combination that will require more flash power than you have. Remember that in High Speed Sync mode, the maximum flash power is cut approzimately in half from normal flash sync.

Russ
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Chris Platt

Newburg, US
481 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#13. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 9

Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012
Thu 04-Apr-13 04:03 PM | edited Thu 04-Apr-13 04:04 PM by Chris Platt

I posted some comparison results here that weren't relevant to the conversation, so I have deleted them.

Sorry.

Visit my gallery.

JohnP793

Brentwood, US
25 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#14. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 13

JohnP793 Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Jan 2006
Thu 07-May-15 12:41 AM

I've been curious about this, particular for use in low light levels. I think the trick then is to use slow (or perhaps rear curtain) flash and auto ISO. When shooting this way, I've been getting something more akin to the "balanced" picture that one can get in a fill flash environment: the background appears to be well exposed and the subject is nicely illuminated- shadows filled in. ISO appears to increase to properly expose the background. I'm using a D7100 and an SB600 flash, and so far have played with this only in normal room lighting environments.

Indigo586

US
636 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#15. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 14

Indigo586 Registered since 25th Jan 2013
Thu 07-May-15 02:11 PM

I have a question for all those who think auto ISO should work with flash. If auto ISO should work with flash how does the camera determine which ISO to select? For ambient light only it chooses the ISO based on the light level, the lens focal length and the aperture in use.

Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
4207 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#16. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 15

Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Thu 07-May-15 03:40 PM

>I have a question for all those who think auto ISO should
>work with flash. If auto ISO should work with flash how does
>the camera determine which ISO to select? For ambient light
>only it chooses the ISO based on the light level, the lens
>focal length and the aperture in use.

I don't know about "should" but I'll take "does".

On my older D300, auto-ISO would work thusly: The preflash and regular AE system would measure the amount of ambient light, and knows the amount of flash light necessary. It increases flash as needed to give a good exposure. If there is not enough flash power, it increases ISO.

For my D800 and D4, it does the opposite: If some minimal flash is inadequate (I do not know how little), it increases ISO up to two stops relative to (I think) the current ISO manual setting, but not above the max auto-ISO. If that ISO is not adequate, it then increases flash power.

I personally hate this latter but I think it does so to provide more ambient light in the shot, and prevent the flash-burn kind of photos common in dark environments. I get that, sort of.


Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

fmrnykr

Oakland, US
219 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#17. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 15

fmrnykr Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Mar 2010
Fri 08-May-15 07:45 AM

I have always been curious about the combination of Auto ISO + flash. Since the experiment only costs a little time, I did a little experimenting.

Camera is a D3s, auto ISO (200-3200; min shutter = 125), Manual exposure f/5.6 @ 125s. No exposure compensation or FV compensation was used. I locked in these settings. SB900 mounted on camera's hot shoe, iTTL mode, with a Gary Fong Light sphere with inverted dome in the bounce configuration.

I took a series of shots that had different ambient light values, in different rooms, and found that the EXIF showed, on some shots, values different from my locked in manual settings (f/5.6 @125s). The camera selected ISO 800 most of the time.

One shot was exposed at f/6.3 @ 160s with a -0.3 EC and a -0.3 FV and another f/6.3 160s with a -0.3 EC and a -0.7 FV. The others shots used my original values of f/5.6 @ 125s, except for those in the “P” mode.

During the test, I never changed any of the settings from my original f/5.6 @ 125s so it appears that the camera will adjust to get the proper exposure with the combination of auto ISO and flash, even in the manual mode. I tried the “P” mode and the camera chose ISO 800 @ f/7.1 @ 125s with an EC of +0.3 with an FV of +0.3.

I’ll do it again tomorrow just to make sure I’ve not gone over the edge.

Any thoughts?

Bob
I
Bob White
San Francisco Bay Area (BWO Brooklyn, N.Y.)

Don't push the river, let it flow.

http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/ppuser/314628/cat/500

Ineluki

Nürnberg, DE
4229 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#18. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 17

Ineluki Gold Member Nikonian since 03rd Aug 2011
Fri 08-May-15 09:52 AM

Bob, same here. The D4 set to auto iso 100-25.600 and the SB 910 regulates its flashes according to iso. SB 910 is set to auto/fp indoor and auto/fp/bl for outdoor. I never missed a shot.

Egbert

www.allmondo.com

http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/ppuser/401509/cat/500/

fmrnykr

Oakland, US
219 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#19. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 18

fmrnykr Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Mar 2010
Sat 09-May-15 12:23 AM

Egbert,

I shoot a lot of events and being able to control the aperture using manual + auto ISO will be of great help.

Thanks for confirming that I have not gone over the edge.

Bob

Bob White
San Francisco Bay Area (BWO Brooklyn, N.Y.)

Don't push the river, let it flow.

http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/ppuser/314628/cat/500

burdicda

Melbourne, US
60 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#20. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 0

burdicda Silver Member Nikonian since 15th May 2015
Mon 25-May-15 10:40 PM | edited Mon 25-May-15 10:43 PM by burdicda

I found a tech article with the following information concerning using SB-700 in Auto-Iso mode:

Flash power and ISO: I know you didnt ask about that, but its a Nikon oddity that you should be aware of. While using auto-ISO the flash / camera system will actively try to conserve flash power and reduce heat output. It will almost always use a higher ISO than is really required and the flash will not use full power. The flash will rather dial up the ISO instead of pumping out more power. The flash will use your entire native ISO range before it starts shooting at 1/1 power. You have to be aware of that because its a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. For example, most of your shots will end up at say ISO 400, even though the flash could have produced a perfect exposure on ISO 200. But the quality difference between 200 and 400 isnt that bad on most modern Nikons and you put less stress on the batteries and the flash itself. This is generally a good thing. However, your ISO may climb up to areas which you dont want to deal with anymore. In that case you have to figure out at what ISO setting your flash can produce a correct exposure and turn off auto ISO. This will force the flash to work on full power in TTL mode. If the flash cannot produce a correct exposure at full power it lets off a distinct beep. You can also use the range indicator on the flash itself as a rough estimation on much power the flash is using in TLL mode. As the range gets shorter and shorter the flash uses more power.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
4207 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#21. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 20

Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Mon 25-May-15 10:44 PM


Well, that sounds like someone making up stuff to support observations rather than a technical article, but that aside....

It's flash is not really involved (well, beyond supporting iTTL), the camera is making the decisions, and different Nikon cameras do it differently, as I noted above.

I'd also doubt it was done for heat reduction, but who knows -- I think it was a bad decision how they changed, but they somehow forgot to ask me first.

Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

burdicda

Melbourne, US
60 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#22. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 21

burdicda Silver Member Nikonian since 15th May 2015
Mon 25-May-15 11:06 PM | edited Mon 25-May-15 11:07 PM by burdicda

I just now submitted the whole thing to Nikon support...it will be really interesting if they come back with an explanation...

"Forgot to ask you first"

Wow forgot to tell them that....hahaha

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

burdicda

Melbourne, US
60 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#23. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 0

burdicda Silver Member Nikonian since 15th May 2015
Thu 28-May-15 02:25 AM

Got an answer back from Nikon on using the D7100 in auto iso mode with an SB700

My Question First:
Customer By Web Form (Danny Burdick)
05/25/2015 06:52 PM
Is the following statement true? If you try to use an SB-700 speedlite in auto-iso mode will the combination be unpredictable? Do they fight over who wins the auto settings...and if so what is the the party line answer to avoid this in fighting...turn off auto iso and wing it or some speedlite setting trick we are all overlooking?
tnx

Their Answer:
D7100- Camera
SB-700- Speedlight
18-55mm- Lens
AF-C, Single area AF, CH for release mode- AF mode, AF area mode, Release mode

-Camera always produced ISO of 250 for 3 consecutive shots before having to recharge

-In order for the camera to continue firing at ISO 250, we had to let SB-700 recharge for approximately 7-10 seconds

-If we attempted to fire the speedlight before the 7 second mark, the ISO would raise in order to compensate for the loss in power of flash

So there it is finally from the horses mouth Nikon Tech Lab
after reading through hundreds of "experts" in a dozen different forums at a dozen different web sights...

The final word is as I interpret is
As long as the SB700 is at charge the auto iso will give you iso 250 for 3 rapid shots...
If the SB700 drops below charge the auto iso will pick up the difference and could go as high an iso as you told it it could...

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
4207 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#24. "RE: Auto ISO and Flash" | In response to Reply # 23

Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Thu 28-May-15 02:28 AM

>So there it is finally from the horses mouth Nikon Tech Lab
>after reading through hundreds of "experts" in a
>dozen different forums at a dozen different web sights...

Since you are happy now, please do not ask some other Nikon technician.


Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

G