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Subject: "Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl" Previous topic | Next topic
Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Wed 28-Nov-12 07:14 PM
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"Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
Wed 28-Nov-12 07:15 PM by Bravozulu

Los Angeles, US
          

I was under the impression that TTl flash mode requires only CW or Spot metering and that the camera shifts from Matrix to Spot/CW when the flash is set to regular TTl mode.

It didn't work, and I got annoying ambient light (with a strange coloration) by setting only the flash and not the camera. What are the steps to take to ensure regular TTl (no BL)?

Flash is an SB800 in the shoe of a D7000.

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Wed 28-Nov-12 10:01 PM
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#1. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 0


Chicago, US
          

All camera exposures have a component of ambient light. With TTL the flash is not always the overpowering power house the flash bulbs and strobes used to be.

See by Russ MacDonald. Look at the post about metering.

In basic task, set the ISO to a low value, shoot in the S, or A modes and use a shutter speed 1/125 to 1/200 this should force the ambient exposure to little to no contribution in the total exposure. You can use the M mode only but make sure the light meter is showing an under exposure.

If you are shooting in a mixed lighting situation, florescent or sodium vapor lights, you wand the ambient exposure to be minimal or you need to filter your flash and adjust WB to match the lighting.

George
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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 28-Nov-12 10:43 PM
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#2. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

I think you've got the directions backwards. The flash reacts to the metering mode selected in the camera. So if you set spot, you will ONLY get TTL - it won't do TTL-BL at all. If you set matrix, you get the choice of TTL and TTL-BL. I think CW is like matrix.

> It didn't work, and I got annoying ambient light (with a strange coloration) by setting only the flash and not the camera.

I'm not sure what "it" is that didn't work. If you set matrix, then set TTL, you should get what you want. (And as above, I think CW is the same.)

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Wed 28-Nov-12 11:19 PM
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#3. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 2


Los Angeles, US
          

It didn't appear that the Flash mode wasn't TTl, without the BL. That's what I meant by "it didn't work". Referring to setting the mode on the flash only and not setting Metering mode on the camera.

I thought they talked to each other (with the SB800) in the hot shoe. And that setting parameters on one or the other, limited parameters on the other. In other words, Matrix wouldn't be allowed when in TTl mode. And, correspondingly, TTl-bl wouldn't be allowed if camera metering were to set on Center or Spot.

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Wed 28-Nov-12 11:19 PM
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#4. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 2
Thu 29-Nov-12 07:53 PM by Bravozulu

Los Angeles, US
          

It didn't appear that the Flash mode was TTl, without the BL. That's what I meant by "it didn't work". Referring to setting the mode on the flash only and not setting Metering mode on the camera. There was obvious ambient light mixed in. Shutter speed was 1/160.

I thought the camera and flash talked to each other (with the SB800) in the hot shoe. And that setting parameters on one or the other, limited parameters on the other. In other words, Matrix wouldn't be allowed when in TTl mode. And, correspondingly, TTl-bl wouldn't be allowed if camera metering were to set on Center or Spot.

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Thu 29-Nov-12 08:10 PM
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#5. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 4


Garretson, US
          

I don't know about the d7000 but my d3200 won't do ttlbl in spot but will in cw. I haven't tried matrix. Since it is still nikon cls I assume it would be the same.

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberFri 30-Nov-12 02:45 PM
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#6. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 3
Fri 30-Nov-12 02:47 PM by Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>It didn't appear that the Flash mode wasn't TTl, without the
>BL. That's what I meant by "it didn't work".
>Referring to setting the mode on the flash only and not
>setting Metering mode on the camera.
>
>I thought they talked to each other (with the SB800) in the
>hot shoe. And that setting parameters on one or the other,
>limited parameters on the other. In other words, Matrix
>wouldn't be allowed when in TTl mode. And, correspondingly,
>TTl-bl wouldn't be allowed if camera metering were to set on
>Center or Spot.

I think it helps to be able to reason this out:

TTL-BL mode requires a large portion of the frame to be metered by the camera so it can figure out how much ambient light there is, so it can balance brightness of the subject with it.

There are two metering modes that meter a large portion of the frame: Matrix and Center Weighted.

Consequently those are the two modes that will allow TTL-BL mode to work.

Regular TTL mode doesn't use any metering information from the camera, so regular TTL can be selected on the flash in any camera metering mode: Spot, Center-Weighted, or Matrix. That's why you can select regular TTL in any of the camera metering modes. The camera metering modes only affect the ambient contribution to the image. They have no effect on the power of the regular TTL flash. The regular TTL power is set entirely by the monitor preflash.

I invite you to read my CLS articles in order, here:
http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/2008/01/nikon-flash-two-separate-metering.html

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Fri 30-Nov-12 03:52 PM
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#7. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 6


Los Angeles, US
          

Understood. By the way my last entry had a typo. It should have read: "It didn't appear that TTl (with no BL) was achieved."

Following your advice on your blog, I wanted to make the strobe the only lighting. And to eliminate ambient. Somehow that didn't happen. I got spillover (pink) light from another room. And the painting I was shooting didn't convey the rich darker tones in the captured image. Spot metering or CW would have improved the exposure, I think.

By the way, on the SB-800 what is meant when selecting modes the words — TTl-FP — appear in the LCD screen? That's what I was shooting in.

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gbowen Gold Member Nikonian since 31st Mar 2011Fri 30-Nov-12 04:01 PM
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#8. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 6


Canton, US
          

A real eye opener, Russ. Gives me some ideas for doing some practice sessions and get this drilled into my head. I want it to become second nature. Thanks!

George

  

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Fri 30-Nov-12 06:40 PM
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#9. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 8


Los Angeles, US
          

Playing around with the camera and SB800 just now, I realized that the FP appeared after TTl in the flash LCD because under Custom Settings>Flash/Bracket the maximum flash speed was set to 1/320. I dropped it down to 1/100 and now the modes on the flash appear as — TTl, TTl-BL, A, AA, M.

Life has returned to normal.

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberSat 01-Dec-12 02:42 AM
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#10. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 7


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>Understood. By the way my last entry had a typo. It should
>have read: "It didn't appear that TTl (with no BL) was
>achieved."
>
>Following your advice on your blog, I wanted to make the
>strobe the only lighting. And to eliminate ambient. Somehow
>that didn't happen. I got spillover (pink) light from another
>room. And the painting I was shooting didn't convey the rich
>darker tones in the captured image.

To eliminate the ambient, you have to use the camera in Manual mode with the shutter speed set quite high, and of course the flash needs to be in regular TTL. My cookbook blog explains how to measure the ambient and what to do with the shutter speed to eliminate it.

>Spot metering or CW would
>have improved the exposure, I think.

Remember that spot and cw metering only affect the ambient. Therefore, if you are eliminating the ambient, the metering mode on the camera will have no effect on the image. The metering modes are used only to set the aperture and shutter. The flash sets it's own power separately, and the flash doesn't care what shutter or aperture you pick (as long as it has enough power).

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberSun 02-Dec-12 02:25 PM
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#11. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 9


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>Playing around with the camera and SB800 just now, I realized
>that the FP appeared after TTl in the flash LCD because under
>Custom Settings>Flash/Bracket the maximum flash speed was
>set to 1/320. I dropped it down to 1/100 and now the modes on
>the flash appear as — TTl, TTl-BL, A, AA, M.
>
>Life has returned to normal.

Not quite 'normal'. You have also reduced your flash sync speed, so you will have to use a much slower shutter speed when shooting flash. This can lead to excessive ghosting. 1/250th is normally the best flash sync speed to leave the camera set to.

The reason you saw FP in the flash display was because the flash was set in Auto High Speed Sync mode. In that mode, when you choose 1/250th FP, or 1/320th FP,the flash will sync with speeds higher than regular sync speed. However, it also reduces the maximum flash power to less than 1/2 of what it is in regular sync mode.

When first learning the flash, I recommend that you turn Auto FP High Sync mode OFF in custom settings menu e1. Then FP will never appear in the flash display, and you will always have full flash power available.

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 04:11 PM
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#12. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 11


Los Angeles, US
          

Back to square one. For the 3rd time. I'm kind of wondering if I should forego much of the automation in CLS and use my Minolta Autometer IV and determine flash exposure with the camera and speedlight in manual mode.

I did that pretty successfully for 3 decades with film Nikons. And a lot of my shooting setups are routine. Same room, same distance, etc.

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 04:20 PM
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#13. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 12


Garretson, US
          

I ordered the Nikon Creative Lighting Systems book and can't wait to dig in. I wonder does using CLS make a person used to using manual rethink their approach and setting? I can't help you any just wondering out loud, but perhaps a step back and a reevaluation on how manual and CLS function would help? I would be sorely tempted to keep using the old way that worked for you if it wasn't for all the good comments and photos I have seen using CLS. I wish you luck! Bertotti


Out of curiosity have you tried ttlbl? I know it isn't what your after but I am curious how it did work out if you tried. Thanks! Bertotti

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 04:42 PM
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#14. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 13


Los Angeles, US
          

TTl-BL was straightforward to configure, and worked great. They do say, however, that it isn't ideal for repeatability. Any slight shift in surface texture or angle of backlighting can shift the results.

The road got rocky for me in trying to use the flash as the primary light. To eliminate ambient entirely and get accurate exposure of about 60 paintings with subtle coloration and low key saturation.

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 05:07 PM
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#15. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 14
Sun 02-Dec-12 05:08 PM by John Bertotti

Garretson, US
          

Seems painting would be hard to photograph. Have you tried you tried and true method you used to use? Did it help any? Sorry if I'm rehashing things here I find when people ask me things like this I sometimes stumble on things I missed or forgot. Sorry I can't help more! Maybe someday I'll know as much as you guys. Do you have a shot you could post now? Any filters on your lenses? I forgot to take a polarizer off the other day while I was indoors. Later Bertotti

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberSun 02-Dec-12 05:37 PM
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#16. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 13


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>I ordered the Nikon Creative Lighting Systems book and can't
>wait to dig in. I wonder does using CLS make a person used to
>using manual rethink their approach and setting? I can't help
>you any just wondering out loud, but perhaps a step back and a
>reevaluation on how manual and CLS function would help? I
>would be sorely tempted to keep using the old way that worked
>for you if it wasn't for all the good comments and photos I
>have seen using CLS. I wish you luck! Bertotti

The secret to using wireless CLS is to learn to think like the camera. It works remarkably well!

>Out of curiosity have you tried ttlbl? I know it isn't what
>your after but I am curious how it did work out if you tried.
>Thanks! Bertotti

TTL-BL is designed only for fill flash in bright ambient conditions. It doesn't work reliably in low ambient conditions. Also, when using TTL-BL it is essential that the light meter in the camera be zeroed. Most of the time camera P mode works best with TTL-BL. TTL-BL adds just the right amount of fill to most outdoor shots.

I invite you to read my CLS blogs here:
http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/2008/01/nikon-flash-two-separate-metering.html

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter MemberSun 02-Dec-12 05:40 PM
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#17. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 14


Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
          

>TTl-BL was straightforward to configure, and worked great.
>They do say, however, that it isn't ideal for repeatability.
>Any slight shift in surface texture or angle of backlighting
>can shift the results.
>
>The road got rocky for me in trying to use the flash as the
>primary light. To eliminate ambient entirely and get accurate
>exposure of about 60 paintings with subtle coloration and low
>key saturation.

TTL-BL was not designed for the flash to be primary light. It was designed to add the flash to the ambient. When you want the flash to be primary you should use regular TTL with the shutter set high enough to eliminate the ambient.

Russ
Retired Professional Photographer
Nikonian Moderator
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

  

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John Bertotti Silver Member Nikonian since 01st Jul 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 05:57 PM
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#18. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 16


Garretson, US
          

Thanks for the link to the blogs. I have read them a couple times and still digesting! One reason I ordered the book! I did t realize ttlbl was not for indoors. I have been aging with it a lot lately inside in lit rooms! So far, right or wrong, I like it. Thanks Bertotti!

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 06:47 PM
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#19. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 17


Los Angeles, US
          

I should have stated the circumstances with more clarity.

TTl-bl was relatively easy.

But TTl, to shoot paintings on a wall with no ambient light contributing, quickly proved too complex for me. Metering should have been Spot. Set on the camera, for one thing. With relatively fast shutter speed and low iISO to block the ambient light.

White Balance was set to Flash, and I used a Gary Fong Diffusion 'dome-thingy' for even lighting.

My wife has 60 of her paintings sold and they go off to a show later this week. I have to document all of them. I'm going to set the strobe to manual, trigger my Minolta meter with a cord, and adjust camera settings to what the meter dictates. I'll bracket each shot with 1/3 =/- stop.

Later, when there's time for experimention I'll take a crack at CLS one more time. The item that disturbs me about CLS, is how spurious EC and EV +/- corrections show up in the image metadata. I didn't mention that, but It feels as if a monkey were let loose in the house!

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Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012Sun 02-Dec-12 07:18 PM
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#20. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 4


Newburg, US
          

"I thought the camera and flash talked to each other (with the SB800) in the hot shoe. And that setting parameters on one or the other, limited parameters on the other. In other words, Matrix wouldn't be allowed when in TTl mode. And, correspondingly, TTl-bl wouldn't be allowed if camera metering were to set on Center or Spot."

Your misunderstanding of the camera/flash communication has been addressed several times in this thread and the similar post you made in the D7000 forum. The camera and flash do talk together, but setting parameters on the flash will not change the setting on the camera. That relationship only works one way - the camera settings will change the settings on the flash from TTL BL to TTL, but setting TTL on the flash WILL NOT change the metering mode on the camera - and it isn't necessary.

There are lots of times when you might want to use TTL instead of TTL BL with matrix or CW metering, and you wouldn't want the flash to tell you that you couldn't do it. On the other hand, when you are in spot metering mode, you aren't metering enough of the scene for TTL BL to work, so selecting that metering mode on the camera causes the flash to revert to TTL if you had previously selected TTL BL because the flash couldn't give you a balanced solution anyway.

If you set the mode on your flash to TTL, and you set your camera to ISO 100, Manual exposure, f/9, 1/250, auto white balance, you should be able to achieve the results you want unless the ambient incandescent light is extremely bright. It is possible to get warm ambient light in the background (though it shouldn't be much of a problem at those settings). If warm light in the background is objectionable, you can always gel your flash to match the temperature of the ambient light and then select a tungsten white balance or set a custom white balance that will guarantee there is not warm light messing up your shot.

Trial and error method: Turn your flash off, set your camera on manual exposure and take a shot. Pick any metering mode you want: spot, CW, or matrix. Adjust ISO, aperture, and/or shutter speed until taking a shot produces nothing but a black frame. Leave those settings on your camera, turn your flash on, make sure it is set to TTL and take a shot. I guarantee you that no ambient light will be added to the scene.

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Mon 03-Dec-12 04:31 PM
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#21. "RE: Matrix/CW Metering on SB800 TTl"
In response to Reply # 20


Los Angeles, US
          

Thanks, Chris and Russ. The advice you sent is now printed out in miniature on little 'hack' cards. (pilot lingo). I keep a few in my camera bag — you know, checklists for various shooting scenarios.

And I'll do the practice drills you suggest until this info is routine.

Gary in Santa Monica

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