nikonians

Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.


Sign up Login
Home Forums Articles Galleries News Workshops Shop Recommended
members
All members Wiki Contests Vouchers Apps Newsletter THE NIKONIAN™ Magazines Podcasts Fundraising

Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author
Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 01:05 AM


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



I was using the CLS setup for protraits, like this .... D200 with built-in flash set for fill light, SB-800 into umbrellla for main, was working ok for the first few pictures, but a serious problem occurred.

This one individual in a small group kept having his syes closed, from blinking, in every picture I took. We tried everything, having a count, trying to fool him by shooting early in the count, by taking numerous photos, and each time his eyes were closed from blinking, even though I was sure he was trying to not blink.

Finally occurred to me that the CLS pre-flash was getting him, and the blink that followed was caught in the photos. I had to turn off the CLS stuff, re-set everything to manual etc. and proceed from there.

Has anyone else experienced this problem with a "fast blinker" like that. ? UNLESS there is a remedy or work-around, 'pretty much ruins the CLS system for group pictures and portraits, for my purposes.

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#1. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 0

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Wed 17-Mar-10 01:13 AM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 01:14 AM by kaouthia

>Finally occurred to me that the CLS pre-flash was getting him,
>and the blink that followed was caught in the photos. I had
>to turn off the CLS stuff, re-set everything to manual etc.
>and proceed from there.

You mean iTTL preflashes? If you still have your 3 groups, and they're all at manual power, it's still using CLS, just not iTTL.

I regularly use CLS with all three groups, but with manual power settings for each group (rather than letting iTTL figure it out for me).

Or, I'll have my key in iTTL mode and the rest in manual, but no, no problems with blinkers.

It's probably the built-in flash as fill that's doing it. I always have the popup flash set to -- if I need to use that as the commander, although usually I'm using an SB-900 with the head rotated away to one side or another.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#2. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 1

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 01:47 AM


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



I had to do manual ratios and with an added optical trigger.
There doesn't seem to be a built-in optical trigger in the flash.

Is it that only the camera flash does the pre-flash, and the remote main flash does not ?

I could try turning the camera flash down some more, but need there to be a fill for the main. Usually I want it to be turned down one full stop from the main, to give a 3:1 lighting ratio, but that one stop reduction still is enough to make the blink, if using CLS.



Gaxelsen

Arroyo Grande, US
16 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#3. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 0

Gaxelsen Registered since 30th Sep 2007
Wed 17-Mar-10 02:08 AM

Explore the FV Lock feature. FV Lock will allow you to fire the pre-flash, and then lock the value. Then, when you photograph, only one flash actually fires. No blink. For the D200 check your custom settings menu f4.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#4. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 3

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 02:27 AM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 03:18 AM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Ok, thanks ... great suggestion. I no longer have a D200, but will look into the FV lock for the CLS cameras I now have.

I set the FV lock for my Function button, and noticed that the lock comes off when the meter shuts off, so then I extended the meter-off time to a full minute. I wish it would persist until turned off, but its not always going to be a problem anyway, so I think I can use the CLS set-up after all. It sure is convenient not to have any sync wires or cables.

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#5. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 2

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Wed 17-Mar-10 02:29 AM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 02:31 AM by kaouthia

The SB-900 works in SU-4 mode as an optical slave. I'm pretty sure the SB-800 does too.

I believe any flash that's in a group told to use iTTL will fire pre-flashes, but the popup's only really an issue to blinkers because it's so close to the lens (and where your subjects are looking).

It's been a while since I've used a flash other than the key in iTTL mode, so I'm not sure off-hand. I'll have a check tomorrow.

One thing I do sometimes if I'm limited to one light and want a bit more "fill", is I'll just meter as normal, set the camera to underexpose 2 stops (rather than relying on flash to light the entire scene), then set the key light up as normal in a softbox or brolly or whatever using iTTL (you have to also tell your flash to overexpose to get an adequate amount if not using manual exposure settings, or it'll underexpose by 2 stops along with the rest of your scene). Then your scene is partially exposed, with the flash still acting as the key light.

How effective this is depends upon the ambient light available to get a fast enough shutter speed to stop camera shake and blur (even when underexposing by 2 stops, it may be too slow), and you may also need to gel your flash to allow it to balance well with the ambient.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#6. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 3

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Wed 17-Mar-10 10:52 AM

>Explore the FV Lock feature. FV Lock will allow you to fire
>the pre-flash, and then lock the value. Then, when you
>photograph, only one flash actually fires. No blink. For the
>D200 check your custom settings menu f4.

Exactly. Works great for subjects with a fast blink reflex.

Freewheeler10

Englewood, US
1105 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#7. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 1

Freewheeler10 Registered since 17th Apr 2008
Wed 17-Mar-10 12:43 PM

>>Finally occurred to me that the CLS pre-flash was getting
>him,
>>and the blink that followed was caught in the photos. I
>had
>>to turn off the CLS stuff, re-set everything to manual
>etc.
>>and proceed from there.
>
>You mean iTTL preflashes? If you still have your 3 groups,
>and they're all at manual power, it's still using CLS, just
>not iTTL.
>
>I regularly use CLS with all three groups, but with manual
>power settings for each group (rather than letting iTTL figure
>it out for me).
>
>Or, I'll have my key in iTTL mode and the rest in manual, but
>no, no problems with blinkers.
>
>It's probably the built-in flash as fill that's doing it. I
>always have the popup flash set to -- if I need to use that as
>the commander, although usually I'm using an SB-900 with the
>head rotated away to one side or another.

Hmmm. Leave all the CLS "stuff" on, and try FVLock, which, after you do a test
shot and turn it on, kills the pre-flashes until you turn it off.


"Photographers deal in things which are continually vanishing and when
they have vanished there is no contrivance on earth which can make
them come back again. "
__Henri Cartier-Bresson


http://gallery.me.com/freewheeler
http://freewheeler10.blogspot.com/

gkaiseril

Chicago, US
6739 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#8. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 3

gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 12:58 PM

As noted the FV lock can be used, but there will still be the 'trigger' flash.

Another approach, or it could be used along with the FV lock, is to use the SG-3IR IR Panel for Camera Built-In Flashes. This accessory will filter out the visible light of the pre and trigger flashes.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#9. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 8

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 02:27 PM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 02:29 PM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Says its for the D70/s and D200, doesn't mention any after that ...
would it fit D300, D90, D700 etc. ?

IS the panel just totally opaque plastic, or IR-transparent ?

Is there enough reflected IR to bounce around behind an OPAQUE panel and trigger the other flashes ?

I am thinking of this set-up.

Remote SB-800 flash on TTL 1/1, with umbrella for main to one side of subject.
Camera on bracket holding the fill or kicker directly overhead, also set to REMOTE, 1/2.
Camera built-in flash for master, set to master, TTL, but with the blocked panel in front.

I have a translucent panel item like the one shown linked above, but could put gaffer tape over the back to make it opaque to visible light, relying on the bounce of IR to set off the remote-set fill and main. Does this sound like it will work ? 'Am going upstairs to try it right now. Flashmeter is used to detect whether first flash is exposure flash. If there is a pre-flash, it will register as insufficient to measure, and then the exposure flash does not get measured.

briantilley

Paignton, UK
30040 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#10. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 9

briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Wed 17-Mar-10 02:50 PM

>Says its for the D70/s and D200, doesn't mention any after that...
>would it fit D300, D90, D700 etc.?

Yes, it fits any Nikon SLR with a built-in flash.

>Is the panel just totally opaque plastic, or IR-transparent?

It lets through only IR light.

>Is there enough reflected IR to bounce around behind an OPAQUE
>panel and trigger the other flashes?

It's only opaque to visible light; IR light gets through the panel. It will allow remote Speedlights to be triggered, since they detect IR light.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#11. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 10

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 03:00 PM


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



I don't have the IR panel, but was wondering if there would be enough bounce behind a totally opaque panel. I could put that silver metallic duct tape over the back of the translucent panel I do already have, which is made just like the one for IR.

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#12. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 10

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Wed 17-Mar-10 03:33 PM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 03:34 PM by kaouthia

>>Is the panel just totally opaque plastic, or
>IR-transparent?
>
>It lets through only IR light.

That's not a bad idea. I used to cover my D200's popup flash with the IR cover from my old SB-50DX (just gaffer taped it over the flash head) before I picked up an SB-900 I could use as a master.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

gkaiseril

Chicago, US
6739 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#13. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 11

gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 03:48 PM

Your mileage will vary. Direct IR will provide the strongest signal. Trying to bounce off an opaque card and then the ceiling or walls may work but not always, especially in a large room or outdoors.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

briantilley

Paignton, UK
30040 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#14. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 11

briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Wed 17-Mar-10 04:17 PM

I see what you mean - I don't know the answer but it would be worth a try.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#15. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 12

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 07:32 PM | edited Wed 17-Mar-10 07:34 PM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Ok, I think I have a solution I can effectively use for portrats.
Thanks to the member who mentioned that the SB-800 has a built-in optical slave accessed thru the SU-4 setting. I had thought that required some specific Nikon equipment to use, but am really delighted to find that it is responsive to any flash.

SO, Camera on manual, mounted on bracket that allows vertical orientation, with SB-800 for fill flash moounted avove the lens, using the hot-shoe sync connection. FIll flash set to manual, 1/2 power, with diffusion dome as well.

Main light SB-800 into umbrella, on stand to side of subject, set to REMOTE SU-4, (optically slaved) and then to full 1/1 power.

This set-up gives me the lighting ratio control I need, provides f8 @ ISO 400, stays consistent, can be checked with an incident meter at the sujbect position, and overall exposure fine-tuned by aperture changes. With a minimum of wiring ... just the SK-6a with mounted SB-800 to the camera's hot shoe, which is neat enough and not in the way.

( In some previous thread, I showed the SK-6a modified to lose the side handle and bracket part that obstruct the SB-800's fifth battery box, and just mount on a Custom Brackets camera rotator bracket - the arrangement providing 9 batteries for the SB-900, in a compact configuration directly over the lens, even for verticals.)

Too bad the full CLS system is not employed this way, but the pre-flashes and trigger flashes were killing its usefullness, since I could not re-configure the system quickly when I had a "speed-blinker" type of subject. 'Have to be able to work quickly in the type of work I do, maybe taking 60 to a 200 portraits of marching band or Drum Corps subjects, and sometimes choral and orchestra groups set up on risers for a group picture. Too much to risk eyes being caused to blink by the pre-flash, and too many faces to check for them. Sometimes a person blinks by random chance, but that is why I take several pictures, and ask if anyone thinks they blinked.

By the way, there is a great way to tell a subject whether their natural and unavoidable eye-blink from the flash was actually captured, or came after as it the usual case. If they saw a white flash, their eyes were open during the picture and not blinked, but if they saw a red flash, their eyes were closed from a random blink. People can't blink fast enough for a regular exposure flash to be caught eyes shut, like they can when a pre-flash goes first.
THe red flash they see when their eyes are actually closed when the flash goes off is their seeing thru the blood in their eyelids' veins. Don't bother explaining to people about the blood, they will get the point from mentioning the light shining thru their eyelids.

Not everyone is observant enough to notice this, and sometimes I have told everyone to shut their eyes for an open flash, to see the red.

Try it, if you are curious.

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#16. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 8

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Wed 17-Mar-10 08:34 PM

>As noted the FV lock can be used, but there will still be the
>'trigger' flash.

True enough, but so far I have not found anyone with a blink reflex fast enough that the "trigger" flash causes them to blink before the main flash fires. While the SG-3IR should block the visible portion of the camera's pop up flash it would not do anything about the pre-flashes from the remote flashes. I use the SU-800 (which emits only IR) as my CLS commander and still can get blinking if I don't use FV Lock.

In my small studio I use manual flash triggered by PocketWizards, but for location work I use CLS and have had very good luck with it.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#17. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 16

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 08:50 PM


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Pre-flashes .... "trigger" and CLS pre-flash for exposure determination .....

I guess I'm a bit confused as to when and what ... types of pre-flash occur. Is the trigger flash much different in its timing before the main flash, than the pre-flash for exposure ?




Len Shepherd

Yorkshire, UK
12722 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#18. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 0

Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003
Wed 17-Mar-10 09:12 PM

To help clarify CL-s sends out a pre flash (which is probably causing the blink) - BEFORE EACH SHOT.
If you take your initial test exposure on your current D700 (in your profile) the flash operates with no pre flash - so no blinking.
FV lock continues to get the exposure right if you change the aperture or the composition - but if you change focus distance you need to cancel FV lock and start again.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#19. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 18

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Wed 17-Mar-10 11:54 PM


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



But apparently to signal the remote flashes, even if the FV lock is on, and everything else is right, the master flash has to send a trigger flash BEFORE the exposure flash, so then you still may have a blink to get caught in the picture.

If this is not the case,? so much the better, but that is what has been said in some of the above posts, (the "trigger" flash, that is.)

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#20. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 18

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:39 AM

>To help clarify CL-s sends out a pre flash (which is probably
>causing the blink) - BEFORE EACH SHOT.

CLS preflashes themselves are almost instantaneous with the shot. If you've got all your flashes in manual power settings using CLS, you'd never notice that there even was any preflashes.

I'd say it's more likely that it's iTTL preflashes that are doing it.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#21. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 20

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Thu 18-Mar-10 11:47 AM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 11:53 AM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



That would be difficult to prove, I guess just by using the CLS on manual, and looking for blinking. The main proof I would be most comfortable with is if the flashmeter registered the main flash. But any sort of detectable flash registers first on it, and the pre-flash or trigger flash always register under-range, at any normal distance, but then put the flashmeter in a non-ready state, until it is cleared, and the main flash is not able to be measured.

On Manual CLS, the trigger flash has to send not only the impulse to fire, but the power ratio settings for each group.

In a simple three-light setup ( Main, fill, and background light ) I don't see much advantage or difference between the CLS and the SU-4 or optical slave, except that the remotes have to be set at each flash instead of from the master, and that the optical slave system is measurably instantaneous.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#22. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 8

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 12:07 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 12:46 PM by Arkayem

>As noted the FV lock can be used, but there will still be the
>'trigger' flash.
>
>Another approach, or it could be used along with the FV lock,
>is to use the
>SG-3IR
>IR Panel for Camera Built-In Flashes]. This accessory will
>filter out the visible light of the pre and trigger flashes.

Ths SG-3IR Panel will eliminate the visible light from the preflashes from the pop-up Commander, but it doesn't do anything to stop the visible light from the flashes in the umbrellas.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#23. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 21

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Thu 18-Mar-10 12:43 PM

>That would be difficult to prove

Would or wouldn't?

>On Manual CLS, the trigger flash has to send not only the
>impulse to fire, but the power ratio settings for each group.

Exactly, but that all happens almost instantly. There's not a noticable gap as there can be with iTTL preflashes.

Just look at the freeze frame in this video I did for another post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwG_KSSiyVE&fmt=22

You can clearly see the CLS signals at the top of the frame, and the SB-600's actual flash output at the bottom. It's about 1:09 into it.

On iTTL CLS it still sends all the same information as with manual, but it also has to fire the flashes several times at different powers and "read" the results so it can figure out what power ratio settings to send in the first place.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#24. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 0

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 12:44 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 12:47 PM by Arkayem

>I was using the CLS setup for protraits, like this .... D200
>with built-in flash set for fill light, SB-800 into umbrellla
>for main, was working ok for the first few pictures, but a
>serious problem occurred.
>
>This one individual in a small group kept having his syes
>closed, from blinking, in every picture I took. We tried
>everything, having a count, trying to fool him by shooting
>early in the count, by taking numerous photos, and each time
>his eyes were closed from blinking, even though I was sure he
>was trying to not blink.
>
>Finally occurred to me that the CLS pre-flash was getting him,
>and the blink that followed was caught in the photos. I had
>to turn off the CLS stuff, re-set everything to manual etc.
>and proceed from there.
>
>Has anyone else experienced this problem with a "fast
>blinker" like that. ? UNLESS there is a remedy or
>work-around, 'pretty much ruins the CLS system for group
>pictures and portraits, for my purposes.

I run into this all the time.

There are two ways to deal with it.

1) The best way is usually to use the FV Lock feature. It fires the preflashes, meters the shot, sends out the power settings to the remote flashes, and stops. Then, when you take the shot, there is just a single preflash that occurs after the shutter opens to fire the remotes. This approach nearly always works. You have to make sure to set your meter time-out in the menu to as long as possible, however, because when the meter times out, it resets the FV Lock.

2) For the really really fast blinker (animals are famous for this), you have to completely eliminate all preflashes. This can only be done by setting all of your remote flashes in SU-4 mode (also called Slave mode), and setting your master flash in Manual mode. Then, the instant the Master flash fires, the Slaves fire, with no delay. No one can blink fast enough to beat this. The problem is that you have to manually set the power of each flash in each umbrella, as well as the power of the master flash.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#25. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 21

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Thu 18-Mar-10 12:48 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 02:17 PM by Luke_Miller

One of our resident flash gurus, Hal Becker (HBB on Nikonians) has photographed the CLS sequence as shown in this thread.

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=set_threaded_mode&forum=154&topic_id=22352&prev_page=show_topic&gid=0#22352

One of the things his study shows is both how long the CLS communications flash sequence is in a three group setup (which IMO is why we have the blink problem) and how short a time exists between the trigger pulse and the main flash (which IMO is why FV Lock is effective in combating blinks.)

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#26. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 25

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Thu 18-Mar-10 01:11 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 01:14 PM by kaouthia

It appears from reading that, unless I'm misunderstanding the theory, that I was right that it's TTL that's causing all the extra blinks from the flashes and probably the cause of the blinkers.

Setting them to manual cuts out the whole "send a pulse to the flash, see how bright it is, calculate adjustments accordingly, " phase for each group. In manual it just sends out the pulse "fire at this power". Not really much processing power or time needed for that one.

All I know is, if I've got an SB-900 commander on my hotshoe, an SB-900 in Group A pointed at a wall in iTTL mode, I can distinctly see the flash go off at least twice. In manual mode, the SB-900 in Group A only fires once (or if it is multiple times, it's fast enough that it's perceived as a single flash).

If you've got 3 groups in iTTL mode, that's 3 sets of flashes going off before the actual main flash for your exposure, and that's going to give people time to react and blink.

With 3 groups in manual, and the iTTL pre-flashes cut out, it happens so fast that people don't have time to blink. Even if you had your key in TTL mode, a single group is probably going to be fast enough to prevent blinkers, but if you've got 2 or 3 groups all in iTTL, it definitely lengthens the process.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#27. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 26

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 01:36 PM

>It appears from reading that, unless I'm misunderstanding the
>theory, that I was right that it's TTL that's causing all the
>extra blinks from the flashes and probably the cause of the
>blinkers.
>
>Setting them to manual cuts out the whole "send a pulse
>to the flash, see how bright it is, calculate adjustments
>accordingly, " phase for each group. In manual it just
>sends out the pulse "fire at this power". Not
>really much processing power or time needed for that one.
>
>All I know is, if I've got an SB-900 commander on my hotshoe,
>an SB-900 in Group A pointed at a wall in iTTL mode, I can
>distinctly see the flash go off at least twice. In manual
>mode, the SB-900 in Group A only fires once (or if it is
>multiple times, it's fast enough that it's perceived as a
>single flash).
>
>If you've got 3 groups in iTTL mode, that's 3 sets of flashes
>going off before the actual main flash for your exposure, and
>that's going to give people time to react and blink.
>
>With 3 groups in manual, and the iTTL pre-flashes cut out, it
>happens so fast that people don't have time to blink. Even if
>you had your key in TTL mode, a single group is probably going
>to be fast enough to prevent blinkers, but if you've got 2 or
>3 groups all in iTTL, it definitely lengthens the process.

If you want to see exactly what the preflash looks like, all by itself, just set your camera in Manual mode, select Rear Sync, and select a really slow shutter speed like 1 second.

Then, when you push the shutter, the preflash will fire at the beginning of the shutter cycle (actually before the shutter opens), and then the main flash will fire at the end of the shutter cycle. Try this with FV Lock and you will see that only the main flash appears to fire at the end of the shutter cycle. Even though there is a fire command sent just before the main pulse, it is not detectable.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

kaouthia

UK
189 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#28. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 27

kaouthia Registered since 20th Mar 2009
Thu 18-Mar-10 01:49 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 01:51 PM by kaouthia

>a really slow shutter speed like 1 second.

Interesting test, I hadn't thought of going quite that slow. I have all my bodies set for rear curtain, but I'm usually hovering between 1/60th-1/250th of a second when I use flash, so it goes by quite quickly. But that makes things a little more clear to me.

On a one second exposure...

SB-900 Commander set to --, SB-900 Group A TTL mode

Start of the exposure, the commander and Group A have a little light conversation, then they both fire at the end.

SB-900 Commander set to --, SB-900 Group A manual power mode (or fvlocked)

Start of the exposure, the commander sends out a little flash, nothing from Group A, then they both fire at the end.

Definitely shows there's more flashes (and more time to process it all) when everything's on iTTL mode.

John
--
Nikon D300s + MB-D10 / D200 + MB-D200 / D100 + MB-D100 / N90s + MF-26
Nikon 50mm f/1.8D, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 300mm f/4 AF-S, Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

gkaiseril

Chicago, US
6739 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#29. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 25

gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005
Thu 18-Mar-10 02:06 PM

To add to this comment, there are many post in Hal's images and some of them link to a series of articles by Max Bain, pixmax, about the timing and coding of the signals. You will find the Part V and the Flash Trivai the most relevant to use of the FV lock.

Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part I Testing Setup
Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part II Flash Sequences
Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part III Remote Group Setting Values
Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part IV SC-28 Remote Cord
Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part V FV Lock


Nikon i-TTL Flash Trivia

George
My Nikonian Galleries

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#30. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 24

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Thu 18-Mar-10 05:23 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 05:29 PM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



One minute or five, the meter will turn off eventually if left alone, and if something can happen, it will. That's one too much of added concerns to tolerate, having to remember to hit the FV before shooting a flash. The FV fires a flash, which has to be expained to some people, and if somehow the Function button is pushed again, the FV is toggled off. One has to keep checking in the viewfinder to verify.
As well, it takes up the Function button, which I prefer to set otherwise to another purpose.
When using the optical triggered SU4 feature, the setting of the remote flashes is not that much a chore, and keeps your head clear as to what you are doing. If you do use the CLS and have two or more groups differentiated in settings, there is no way to verify which remote is what, without going over to it and looking at its control panel to see which group setting it has. 'Just as well to simply set the ratio in manual and SU-4 while there.
I am impressed with the versatility of Nikon's CLS and am even more impressed that they provide the optical trigger feature for those situations where the CLS is problematic, or requires excessive supervision. Sometimes the KISS method of working is best.
One small complaint is that Nikon calls the optical trigger feature SU-4, as if you had to have a SU-4 to use it, or as if it were a proprietary technology, instead of the basic universal photographic flash technology it is, that has been around for over 35 years.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#31. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 30

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 07:04 PM

>One minute or five, the meter will turn off eventually if left
>alone, and if something can happen, it will.

On the D200 and the D3 you can set the timeout to infinite. I think some of the other cameras can be set to infinite as well.

>That's one too
>much of added concerns to tolerate, having to remember to hit
>the FV before shooting a flash. The FV fires a flash, which
>has to be expained to some people, and if somehow the Function
>button is pushed again, the FV is toggled off.

I just tell the group it's a metering flash - not the picture. It only has to be fired once, and then it works for all the remaining shots without (most) preflashes.

Yes, a second push on the function button is how you turn it off on the D200 and D3.

>One has to
>keep checking in the viewfinder to verify.
>As well, it takes up the Function button, which I prefer to
>set otherwise to another purpose.

I always use the function button for FV Lock, so it's perfect for me.

> When using the optical triggered SU4 feature, the setting of
>the remote flashes is not that much a chore, and keeps your
>head clear as to what you are doing. If you do use the CLS
>and have two or more groups differentiated in settings, there
>is no way to verify which remote is what,

I have a system for this. The group on my left as I face my subject is always A. The group on my right is always B. The hair light or back light is always C. That is all the groups there are.

>One small complaint is that Nikon calls the optical trigger
>feature SU-4, as if you had to have a SU-4 to use it, or as if
>it were a proprietary technology, instead of the basic
>universal photographic flash technology it is, that has been
>around for over 35 years.

This is a product of history.

The SB-28 Speedlights did not have an optical trigger capability built-in, so you had to buy a device called a Wireless Slave Flash Controller SU-4. This device mounted under the foot of the flash and made it into an optically triggered slave.

Newer Speedlights had the SU-4 circuitry built-in, so they just called it the SU-4 mode.

The Nikon SU-4 is still available (albeit a little expensive):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/158077-REG/Nikon_3070_SU_4_Wireless_Remote_Slave.html/BI/4775/KBID/5289/

I don't own one, but I think it can be used with any flash to make it into an optical slave.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#32. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 28

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 07:08 PM

>I have all my bodies set for rear curtain,

It's better to use Front Curtain (Normal) sync for portraits. As we have been discussing, rear curtain sync stretches out the flash sequence, especially at slower shutter speeds, and you will get lots of closed eyes.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#33. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 30

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Thu 18-Mar-10 07:12 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 07:15 PM by Luke_Miller

Actually I have and use the SU-4 since many Nikon speedlights lack the "SU-4 Mode". The SU-4 lets me use my SB-26 and SB-600 flashes as background and hair lights triggered by my monolights.

Regarding the meter timeout. In the studio I shoot wirelessly and the WT-4A will break the wireless connection when the meter times out so I set the timeout to infinite. Do the same on location with CLS to preserve the FV Lock setting.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#34. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 33

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 08:03 PM

>Actually I have and use the SU-4 since many Nikon speedlights
>lack the "SU-4 Mode". The SU-4 lets me use my SB-26
>and SB-600 flashes as background and hair lights triggered by
>my monolights.

I may not be remembering right, but I thought the SB-26 had a built-in slave trigger. It wasn't the same as the SU-4, but it worked. In fact, I think it was a predecessor to the SU-4.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#35. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 31

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:00 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 09:38 PM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Historically, that explains the really bad reason it is called SU-4.
I am going to guess that SU stands for Slave Unit, but whatever, it bespeaks of a insular corporate mentality, as if Nikon alone is in on the technology. SU-4 is only a specific piece of equipment Nikon makes or made, not an industry standard designation, or even an attempt at one. 'Similar to if Nikon called Program exposure the "FA mode," on subsequent cameras' controls. Have a field day with that comparison, but you get the point.

Anyway, I'm happy the flashes have the mode, however cryptic the menu controls.

In the spirit of keeping things simpler and more foolproof, setting your meter to never time out is an invitation to draining your battery unexpectedly and prematurely.

As for a system of grouping and naming them A,B,C, that is fine if you leave your stuff set-up constantly, but for location work, and for a variety of unstandard lighting situations, it is less useful.
If you are sure the flash(es) on your right are in fact set to "Group B", ON THE FLASH UNIT ITSELF, then a mental system will work fine, but if somehow the flash on the right is not set to B, operating from the camera position with that assumption and no direct verification will produce unexpected results.

Still it is great to get these different suggestions, and methods of working, while not everything works for everyone, with the flexibility of the Nikon system, you can usually find a way.

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#36. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 34

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:02 PM

Russ

I believe you are correct about the SB-26. Actually I have the SB-25 which does not have the SU-4 mode. I mistakenly referred to it as an SB-26 in my previous post. Good catch.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#37. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 35

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:31 PM

>I am going to guess that SU stands for Slave Unit, but
>whatever, it bespeaks of a insular corporate mentality, as if
>Nikon alone is in on the technology. SU-4 is only a specific
>piece of equipment Nikon makes or made, not an industry
>standard designation, or even an attempt at one.

I'll be first to add my criticism of Nikon-Speak. In fact this was the primary driving factor that lead me to write my CLS blogs (link in my signature block below).

I believe the terminology confusion was mostly caused by a big disconnect between the Nikon design engineers and the English-speaking Nikon Marketing people. The design engineers didn't work closely with marketing, so many things were guessed at for the English documentation. I have been told that the Japanese documentation is much better, but I don't read Japanese, so it doesn't help me.

However, SU-4 is slightly more than a simple slave. In addition to the normal simple slave mode, where the flash simply fires at the power you set it when triggered by another flash, there is an 'Auto SU-4' mode that makes the slave fire with the master, and then quench when the master pulse ends. This allows for a modicum of remote adjustment of flash power, by adjusting the power of the master flash.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#38. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 36

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:35 PM

>Russ
>
>I believe you are correct about the SB-26. Actually I have
>the SB-25 which does not have the SU-4 mode. I mistakenly
>referred to it as an SB-26 in my previous post. Good catch.

Good deal! I know that my remembery (my personal word) of that period 15 years ago is getting a little vague.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#39. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 37

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Thu 18-Mar-10 09:43 PM | edited Thu 18-Mar-10 09:46 PM by Alx

Visit my Nikonians gallery.



Synchronized quench is a pretty interesting added feature, if you want all your flashes to fire at the same power. I don't see how you can set different power levels, since the power of a flash is only controlled by its duration, GIVEN the full power of different model flashes will vary. but as far as two identical flashes set to different power levels, I am seeing some sort of conflict here between power ratios and synchronized quenching.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#40. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 39

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 18-Mar-10 11:17 PM

>Synchronized quench is a pretty interesting added feature, if
>you want all your flashes to fire at the same power. I don't
>see how you can set different power levels, since the power of
>a flash is only controlled by its duration, GIVEN the full
>power of different model flashes will vary. but as far as two
>identical flashes set to different power levels, I am seeing
>some sort of conflict here between power ratios and
>synchronized quenching.

It's definitely not something I find extremely useful, but I think for the creative mind there might be some way to use it.

For instance, here's an idea (I haven't tried it, btw). Set one slave to Manual SU-4 and the other to Auto SU-4. Then, the manual one would always stay at the same power as set on the back of the flash, but the other one would vary with the master. Just a thought.

But it would be very difficult if not impossible to set up a specific lighting ratio using the Auto SU-4 mode. I'll give you that! It probably would be better to just use the old fashioned Manual SU-4 Slave mode.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Freewheeler10

Englewood, US
1105 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#41. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 19

Freewheeler10 Registered since 17th Apr 2008
Fri 19-Mar-10 01:39 PM

>But apparently to signal the remote flashes, even if the FV
>lock is on, and everything else is right, the master flash has
>to send a trigger flash BEFORE the exposure flash, so then you
>still may have a blink to get caught in the picture.
>
>If this is not the case,? so much the better, but that is what
>has been said in some of the above posts, (the
>"trigger" flash, that is.)

One pre-flash, for a test. FV Lock On, no more pre-flashes til it's reset.
Maybe this will help:

"Quick field strategy tip. We've talked about the monitor pre-flash
as a beautiful thing. Not if your subject is a blinker. Most of the time,
the millisecond between pre-flash and real flash will beat even the
most sensitive eyes, and you will make your frame before they blink.
But there are some folks out there whose eyelids are spring-loaded,
and with the pre-flash enabled you will lose half your take or more.
FV lock quenches the pre-flash. With FV lock enabled, you get one
flash-the exposure making flash-and that's it." __Joe McNally,
"The Hot Shoe Diaries, Big Light From Small Flashes"

Gablerudy

Philadelphia, US
15 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#42. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 0

Gablerudy Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Oct 2007
Sun 21-Mar-10 12:19 AM | edited Sun 21-Mar-10 12:26 AM by Gablerudy

I had a similar problem with the blinkes .I purchased a su-800 and that solved my problem.maybe this will help you.Good luck.Rudy

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#43. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 42

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Sun 21-Mar-10 06:08 AM | edited Sun 21-Mar-10 06:13 AM by Alx

>I had a similar problem with the blinkes .I purchased a
>su-800 and that solved my problem.maybe this will help
>you.Good luck.Rudy


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



'Not sure what a su-800 is....
but apparently you have not read the whole thread.
Refer to posts #5, and #15

gkaiseril

Chicago, US
6739 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#44. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 43

gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005
Mon 22-Mar-10 02:37 PM | edited Mon 22-Mar-10 03:08 PM by gkaiseril

The SU-800 Wireless Speedlight Commander and available separately or as part of Nikon's R1C1 Wireless Close-Up Speedlight System. The device is basically an SB-800 with an IR filter over the flash tube. The unit can only control remote Wireless Speedlights and will not contribute any light or illumination to image. In Nikon's CLS AWS or Wireless terms this is a 'Commander' unit like the D70/70s only commands a remote group. While the SB-900/800 and other CLS Wireless cameras can not only command remote groups but add illumination.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#45. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 44

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Mon 22-Mar-10 06:17 PM

The crucial question here is now .... Are the trigger flashes close enough to the exposure flash as to be impossible for human reflexes to blink for the main exposure ? We have established that the CLS pre-flashes are far enough before the main flash to cause blinking, but the trigger flashes are still questionable.

Replies to the sense of "I've had no problems" are helpful, but are more anecdotal than definitive. If the trigger flashes are able to trigger blink reflexes that are caught by the exposure flash, that makes the CLS a hit-or-miss proposition for portraiture, especially groups.

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#46. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 45

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Mon 22-Mar-10 06:30 PM | edited Mon 22-Mar-10 06:53 PM by Luke_Miller

>Replies to the sense of "I've had no problems" are
>helpful, but are more anecdotal than definitive. If the
>trigger flashes are able to trigger blink reflexes that are
>caught by the exposure flash, that makes the CLS a hit-or-miss
>proposition for portraiture, especially groups.

All I can offer is more anecdotal information. I use CLS for portraiture and when I see a blink problem I use FV Lock. I have not had a blink problem when FV Lock was in use. Here is one example. I had a couple where the wife was a fast blinker. Out of the first four or five shots all caught her with her eyes closed. I went to FV Lock and had no further problems. I won't claim that FV Lock will eliminate 100% of the blinking 100% of the time, but in my (anecdotal) experience - blinking with human subjects is not an issue when you use it.

Note that you can have a blinking problem when you are using a single flash (no CLS communication flashes) due solely to the exposure pre-flash. My example of the couple above was that situation.

I use CLS for my location shooting since it gives me the flexibility to quickly change my set up without asking the subjects to wait while I check exposure with a flashmeter or trial exposures. I chimp to check for blinks and if present will immediately go to FV Lock. Usually it is not needed. I did not use it during my last wedding shoot and did not have one formal portrait shot ruined by a blink.

Of course Photoshop is your friend. I always take several shots of each setup and should I get a blinker I didn't notice during the shoot it is trivial to fix afterwards in Photoshop.

Last comment. I think if folks like Russ (Arkayem) say CLS is suitable for portraits and group shots when properly used you can feel confident it is so.

gkaiseril

Chicago, US
6739 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#47. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 45

gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005
Mon 22-Mar-10 11:08 PM

The whole sequence can take about 0.06 seconds to 0.15 seconds. You can find the timing test results at Nikon CLS Advanced Wireless Lighting, Part II. This means that one solution might not fit all of your situations. So the only real choices are t review the shots or use the FV lock.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#48. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 47

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Tue 23-Mar-10 12:26 AM


The only real solution seems to be to rely on the optical slave system. ]

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#49. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 48

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Tue 23-Mar-10 11:30 AM | edited Tue 23-Mar-10 11:31 AM by Luke_Miller

>
>The only real solution seems to be to rely on the optical
>slave system. ]


That works fine. I use it all the time in my studio, but not on location. On location I can't remember the last time I was the only person in the room with a flash. In SU-4 mode every flash in the room can trip your lights. That is the bad news. The good news is that when Uncle Bob or Aunt Sue are piggybacking on your set up all of their shots will be badly blown out by your lights.

If you believe manual flash is the solution for your work due to the potential of CLS to cause blinking I suggest radio triggers. I use PocketWizards, but cheaper solutions abound. IMO SU-4 mode brings a new set of problems to location work that I, for one, do not want to deal with.

Alx

Nashville, US
391 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#50. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 49

Alx Registered since 19th Nov 2005
Tue 23-Mar-10 01:04 PM


Lots of useful info ....
the original post and thread are about portraiture, so "location" work will will have parameters that differ.

One question, not rhetorical, what sort of location work gets a multi-light set-up in a room where other people are using flashes ?

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#51. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 50

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Tue 23-Mar-10 01:23 PM

>
>Lots of useful info ....
>the original post and thread are about portraiture, so
>"location" work will will have parameters that
>differ.
>
>One question, not rhetorical, what sort of location work gets
>a multi-light set-up in a room where other people are using
>flashes ?

I do events like Military Balls, where I set up a Photo Booth and take on-location portraits. With every guest using a point and shoot camera in the same ballroom, there is no way I could ever use optical slave SU-4 triggering. My lights would be going off all the time!

I always use wireless CLS for this.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1608 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#52. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 50

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Tue 23-Mar-10 01:45 PM

>One question, not rhetorical, what sort of location work gets
>a multi-light set-up in a room where other people are using
>flashes ?

When I am doing the formal portraits after the wedding ceremony I use a multi-light set up controlled by CLS. I often have family members and guests taking their own shots either of my subjects or of other members of the wedding party waiting for their turn to be photographed.

Another point to consider.

I've done two outdoor weddings where I shot the formals outdoors in sunlight and the flash was used for fill. CLS worked fine in both instances, but I have no illusions that will always be the case. In bright sunlight CLS can struggle as will optical triggers. My PocketWizards go with me for those times.

TEDDYREX

Anderson, US
30 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#53. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 37

TEDDYREX Registered since 06th Mar 2010
Fri 11-Jun-10 03:37 AM

Russ, concerning Japanese Nikon Marketing people vs design engineers working less than closely connected, many things got guessed at from the English documentation. Viz the Japon-to-English transliteration of "Nihon Kokagu" directly from "Nippon (Japanese)-Kogaku (Kodak)." Always ending on open vowels. Ever heard of such? My source is from Hong Kong in 1966. "Nikkor" transmogrified similarly, from Nikkon-renzu, no "L' at the time. No law -- just coincidence. Food for thought.

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6044 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#54. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 53

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Fri 11-Jun-10 12:21 PM

>Russ, concerning Japanese Nikon Marketing people vs design
>engineers working less than closely connected, many things
>got guessed at from the English documentation. Viz the
>Japon-to-English transliteration of "Nihon Kokagu"
>directly from "Nippon (Japanese)-Kogaku (Kodak)."
>Always ending on open vowels. Ever heard of such? My source
>is from Hong Kong in 1966. "Nikkor"
>transmogrified similarly, from Nikkon-renzu, no "L' at
>the time. No law -- just coincidence. Food for thought.

Very intersting. I knew that Kodak was involved in the early work, but I never knew that the name 'Nikon' came from the combination of Nippon-Kogaku. Thanks!

I know that there was a lot of guesswork in the early documentation. Now, it is much better, but engineers still usually don't communicate well with the marketing people regardless of whether they are Japanese or English speaking.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

blw

Richmond, US
27303 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to send message via AOL IM

#55. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 54

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Sat 12-Jun-10 03:14 PM

I was under the impression that Kogaku is Japanese for "optical."

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

blw

Richmond, US
27303 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to send message via AOL IM

#56. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 54

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Sun 13-Jun-10 09:03 AM

I looked it up in Wikipedia:

The name Nikon, which dates from 1946, is a merging of Nippon Kōgaku (日本光学: "Japan Optical")

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

TEDDYREX

Anderson, US
30 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#57. "NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 56

TEDDYREX Registered since 06th Mar 2010
Sun 13-Jun-10 06:25 PM

The rip-off and transmogrification from Eng. "KODAK" to Jp. "KOGAKU" began not too
long after Hiroshima. Wiki is FAR too new to be aware of the etymology of such "G.I." terms. "Nippon Kogaku" stands for "Japanese Kodak", 21st century Wiki opinion notwithstanding. Wiki is not wrong, just sixty years late. There are similar interesting derivations of "Canon", and "Hon Da" (Harley Davidson), but that's another blog. I'm
done yakking, and there is a LOT of information on this topic that I need to digest. My
$0.02 is done.

blw

Richmond, US
27303 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to send message via AOL IM

#58. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 57

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Sun 13-Jun-10 06:36 PM

Hmm... seems like this ought to be pretty easy to settle with a Japanese-English dictionary. The translation of "optical" surely predates WWII, doesn't it?

And I beg to differ about Honda being a rip-off of Harley Davidson. The company was founded by a man whose name was Soichiro Honda, so unless you think his parents changed their family name in the 19th century to be able to rip off the Harley Davidson trademark sometime in the 20th century, the claim that Honda is a derivation of H-D doesn't pass the sniff test.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

TEDDYREX

Anderson, US
30 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#59. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 58

TEDDYREX Registered since 06th Mar 2010
Sun 13-Jun-10 06:50 PM

>Hmm... seems like this ought to be pretty easy to settle with
>a Japanese-English dictionary. The translation of
>"optical" surely predates WWII, doesn't it?
>
>And I beg to differ about Honda being a rip-off of Harley
>Davidson. The company was founded by a man whose name was
>Soichiro Honda, so unless you think his parents changed their
>family name in the 19th century to be able to rip off the
>Harley Davidson trademark sometime in the 20th century, the
>claim that Honda is a derivation of H-D doesn't pass the sniff
>test.

Well, it seemed appropriate at the time. G.I. barracks talk and all.
I'll need to research it a bit. O.K., do you know the derivation of
the "Canon" marque? (This was found in Pop Photo of a few decades ago.)
((Double parens: isn't there a more legit place to blog like this?)) Domo.

briantilley

Paignton, UK
30040 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#60. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 57

briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Sun 13-Jun-10 08:15 PM

Check out the Nikon Historical Society for what I presume is a definitive statement.

Nippon Kogaku K.K was formed in 1917, the name meaning Japan Optical Co.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

blw

Richmond, US
27303 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to send message via AOL IM

#61. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 59

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Sun 13-Jun-10 09:00 PM

> do you know the derivation of the "Canon" marque?

I didn't, but I assume that Canon does. Excerpted:

In 1933, when Precision Optical Instruments Laboratory was established, the name given to cameras manufactured on a trial basis at the time was Kwanon. This title reflected the benevolence of Kwanon, the Buddhist Goddess of Mercy, and embodied the Company's vision of creating the best cameras in the world.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

jrp

San Pedro Garza García, MX
36444 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#62. "RE: Dealbreaker for the CLS and portraiture." | In response to Reply # 55

jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter Member
Thu 17-Jun-10 03:30 AM | edited Thu 17-Jun-10 04:11 AM by jrp

Brian,
Kogaku takes several meanings.
One must remember that Japanese characters are ideograms, not letters.

In "normal" use, when written with the kanji characters 高額 it means "Commerce" / "high price" / "high value"

光学 means "Optics" (not "Optical" which is: kogakuno)

工学 means "Study/Research" but also "Technology/Education"
however always fully connected to or in relation to Engineering.

"Kogaku" in educated Japanese means "the science of problem solving", i.e. Engineering -in its fullest meaning.

Its relationship to Kodak is none, although the confusion is easily understandable when westerners came in contact with Japan and listen to the word, with its almost mute final vowel.

Have a great time :-)
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Mainly at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story
Please join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members who help this happen; upgrade.
Check our workshops at the Nikonians Academy and the Nikonians Photo Pro Shop

jrp

San Pedro Garza García, MX
36444 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#63. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 58

jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter Member
Thu 17-Jun-10 04:28 AM

Correct, Brian

Honda Saichiro was born on 1906.
Although he never claimed anything in this regard, he is possibly a direct descent of Honda Tadakatsu (also known as Honda Heihachiro). A Japanese samurai general of the late Sengoko and early Edo period. He lived from 1548 to 1610 and was one of the Tokugawa Shogunate Four Heavenly Kings.

Have a great time :-)
JRP (Founder & Administrator. Mainly at the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story
Please join the Silver, Gold and Platinum members who help this happen; upgrade.
Check our workshops at the Nikonians Academy and the Nikonians Photo Pro Shop

TEDDYREX

Anderson, US
30 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#64. "RE: NIPPON, KODAKU, and other nomenclature." | In response to Reply # 61

TEDDYREX Registered since 06th Mar 2010
Thu 17-Jun-10 06:05 PM

> Kwanon. This title reflected the benevolence of Kwanon, the Buddhist Goddess of Mercy, and embodied the Company's vision of creating the best cameras in
>the world.
Fun dialog. It was worth it. And so it ends. But remembering that
"Historical Societies" are quite notorious for changing "facts"!! Pop
Phot, circa 1965, opined that the name came from the Latin phrase,
"Sine qua non", a claim or superiority, but the whole quote wouldn't
fir the name-plate. Ergo "Qua non" became Canon; a derivation as
good as anything else. So far. Thank you gentlemen for your diligent
research and good moods. TRex

G