Picked up a cheap 500mm Cad lens a while back. Fixed F8 aperture.
It mounts (of course )on the D60, but in Aperture Preferred mode, isn't there.
"Manual" mode seems to work. It looks like it's getting some kind of shutter speed selection from someplace, but....
However, I'm confused from there - I'd like match needle or automatic shutter speed, but I can't see (from the manual) how to get either one.
Naturally, the thing seems to like my old N6006, but I gave that to my daughter (who promptly gave it back, but that's another story) and I'm trying to abandon film.
My first Nikon was an N4004. Couldn't stand it - great camera, but if I wanted to go off "automatic", the fool thing pretty much needed to be on a tripod, or I needed to grow another hand. The N6006, although a bit confusingly computerized, did the job, but after playing with a cheap digital, I had to take the plunge. Naturally, there was a new model within hours, but WTH - for a "consumer" camera, it's pretty decent. I've been at this for a tad over 40 years if you don't count playing with an FR kit back in the mid 50's. The N4004 was preceded by a Spotmatic SPIIa. I gave that (and some lenses) and my whole darkroom (never set back up after a move in 1989) to my daughter's girlfriend.
#1. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 0 Sun 28-Aug-11 02:41 PM by aolander
The "500 Cad" will operate only in manual exposure mode. It is just like any non-CPU lens (no electronics) in that the D60 can't meter with it. Use manual exposure mode and guess at the shutter speed needed, using the histogram as your "meter". Or buy a hand-held meter.
The lens would meter on a D200, D300, D7000, etc. since they will meter with non-CPU lenses, i.e. older, manual focus, non-electronic lenses.
There wasn't any need to always have to use a tripod on your N4004 in manual modes. You were apparently using too slow of shutter speeds when "off automatic". A good book is "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson.
#2. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 1
(Now you tell me - I gave my daughter's girlfriend the Luna Pro, too.... )
Kinda what I figured.... Seems stupid that the camera can't do match-needle with a non-CPU lens, though - just set the aperture somehow, and flip through the shutter speeds. The meter is still there....
Oh well, it'll work on the N6006, and Kodak is still making some films. (My usual camera shop will do direct-to-CD processing at a reasonable price.) Now I just have to remember where I put the N6006, and maybe put a battery in it. (No idea how old the battery is.)
(Also, one of the great things about a digital camera is that it can auto-adjust things like ASA settings for you. Kinda "work no matter what" given ordinary daylight use. I really have to try that.)
About the tripod: What I was referring to was taking several hands to set the shutter speed and/or aperture using the top-panel controls (and the locks!) on the N4004. I was always afraid I'd drop the fool thing trying to release a lock.... I think they just didn't want me to do that .... Mostly, though, it kick-started me into the Nikon realm. I'd used a Nikkormat some years back - belonged to a cousin - but just didn't see any advantage over the Pentax SPIIa. When I decided to get a new camera, I really didn't expect anything to work with it, so a Nikon was worth looking at.
(Almost bought an F4 about the time I swapped for the N6006 - one of those "if you pick it up, you'll buy it" things, but the wife wanted food instead . I'm not really sorry, but probably should have kicked it up a notch when I bought the D60. I think the D300 was the better choice, but "cheap" won out.)
The nice thing about the N4004, though, was that the lenses & such all fit the N6006, and by swapping the body and normal lens (I probably should have kept that), I only needed a few bucks to make the upgrade. The short zoom I'd already picked up worked fine as a normal lens, and the long zoom just worked.... Stupid flash worked, too - the Devil made me by that one. Can't think of the name, but the flash tube housing is cylindrical. No decent accessories fit except for that "sock" thing that Porters sells. (Diffusers, etc.)
(Didn't make that mistake with the D60 - can't think of that model, either, but things like that fit it .)
And, way off topic, the "Puffer" really works well on the built-in flash for ordinary use.
As you're guessing, mostly it's the great-nieces and nephews, the kid, and the menagerie, lately. Once in a while I get itchy and go find a bridge or something. I found one the other day, but the camera wasn't with me - gotta go back. (I like the "underside of a bridge" stuff, as well as some "rarely visited oddities". Locally, there are a couple of little dams on Mill Creek that nobody really seems to know about anymore.)
#4. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 2
>Kinda what I figured.... Seems stupid that the camera can't >do match-needle with a non-CPU lens, though - just set the >aperture somehow, and flip through the shutter speeds. The >meter is still there....
Since the D60 is an entry level body and was designed to sell at the lowest possible price point, the feature reflects this. The D7000 and higher bodies continue to support non-CPU lenses including Reflex type telephotos.
#5. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 4
Heck of a pile of money for an "entry level" camera body ....
Actually, the silly part, IMHO, is that being able to tell the camera body manually what lens aperture you're using, and let it pick a shutter speed, or provide some kind of match-needle style metering has to be about as simple a function as you could ask for. My old SPIIa could do that, as can the N6006, which isn't quite "entry level", but close.
Come to think of it, my circa 1972 Exacta could do that - I've still got a 500mm (Spiratone) tele (not a Cad) that uses two rings - one to stop the lens down for metering, and a second one to crank it back open for focusing. Ready to shoot, and you turn the second ring to the stop. Not quick, but way simpler than an automatic stopdown. The basic Exacta setup used a preset lens well - same idea, except that pressing the shutter button stopped the lens down, and you had to crank it back open.
No need to tell the body what aperture you're using. The meter is trying to hit a grey-scale point by looking at the light coming in, and comparing that with the shutter speed currently set. Letting it tell you to change the speed to get closer, or to automatically set one it likes, would be trivial.
Aperture-priority mode needs to be smart enough to just tell you if you hit a shutter speed it can't set - too fast, or too long.... Manual mode ought to just tell you that you've picked a shutter speed and aperture combo that is correct (without really knowing what the aperture is).
Now, I'm getting upset ....
(Well, not really.... Just kind of funny to find a "legacy" lens that will mount, but won't work at all without an external meter, given that the one in the camera is smarter than I am .)
#6. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 5
>Heck of a pile of money for an "entry level" camera >body ....
The price of DSLR's are significantly more expensive than the equivalent film body. Considering that the F5 sold new for less than half the price of a new D2X or D3 body and about 2/3rds the price of a new D700. When you add 2 year production cycles for DSLR's and compare the 8 year production cycles for film bodies makes DSLR's cost even more.
>Actually, the silly part, IMHO, is that being able to tell the >camera body manually what lens aperture you're using, and let >it pick a shutter speed, or provide some kind of match-needle >style metering has to be about as simple a function as you >could ask for. My old SPIIa could do that, as can the N6006, >which isn't quite "entry level", but close. > >Come to think of it, my circa 1972 Exacta could do that - I've >still got a 500mm (Spiratone) tele (not a Cad) that uses two >rings - one to stop the lens down for metering, and a second >one to crank it back open for focusing. Ready to shoot, and >you turn the second ring to the stop. Not quick, but way >simpler than an automatic stopdown. The basic Exacta setup >used a preset lens well - same idea, except that pressing the >shutter button stopped the lens down, and you had to crank it >back open.
The 6006 was positioned above the N2020, and the N4004 and just behind the N8008. The N8008 was positioned just below the F4 series. When the N6006 was introduced, AF was still relatively new thus many buyers were transitioning from the MF bodies to AF bodies.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of entry level camera buyers never buy or use anything other than the kit lens that came with the camera. Most never add a Speedlight or other accessories either. Knowing this when Nikon set out to design the D40 to keep the price as low as possible, backwards compatibility and fully supporting MF lenses was not worth the added cost. Even the AF motor built into the body was ommitted to minimize the cost and therefore selling price. The lower price, helped to increase the number of units sold and improve the companies bottom line and market share.
>No need to tell the body what aperture you're using. The >meter is trying to hit a grey-scale point by looking at the >light coming in, and comparing that with the shutter speed >currently set. Letting it tell you to change the speed to get >closer, or to automatically set one it likes, would be >trivial.
Remember that the aperture diaphragm is always wide open regardless of aperture setting. The diaphragm only closes when the shutter is released or the DOF Preview button (if your camera has one) is pressed. Therefore the camera's metering system has to know what the aperture is set to.
>Aperture-priority mode needs to be smart enough to just tell >you if you hit a shutter speed it can't set - too fast, or too >long.... Manual mode ought to just tell you that you've >picked a shutter speed and aperture combo that is correct >(without really knowing what the aperture is).
>Now, I'm getting upset ....
No reason to get upset. It won't change anything.
>(Well, not really.... Just kind of funny to find a >"legacy" lens that will mount, but won't work at all >without an external meter, given that the one in the camera is >smarter than I am .)
There is always the Sunny 16 rule. Since the D60 is a digital body, you can use the histogram and the trial and error method to set the exposure. With a little practice you get very good at setting the correct exposure by eye. Remember when the Nikon F was introduced in 1959 it had a prism finder without any meter. Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!
#7. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 6
I once asked a buddy, who was an "Outdoor Writer", why an N8008 instead of an F4. The IRS would have gone for it .... "I can loose a N8008 and still only be at about half what an F4 is worth." I don't know how many he lost, but he probably was right. I really wanted one of those, way back when, too, but the N6006 was more than enough. Clearly a "consumer" camera, but capable. The N4004 was, OTOH, what you've suggested the D60 is - "beginner's". Everything I needed was there, and not a lot of it was hard to find (the N6006 is a little too "computerized" for some people, and that includes me, even though I've been in the computer field for over 40 years now). It was just a PITA to use the N4004 if I wanted to go manual....
The D60, OTOH, strikes me as the N6006 of the digitals at the time - everything is there, it's easy to use, and (finally) it's not overly computerized in terms of finding that stuff.
What's frosting me (albeit not all that much - I should have seen that coming, and maybe spent the extra few bucks) is that a simple variation on wide-open metering, namely "the aperture is not going to change from now" plus automatic or manual shutter speed selection (manual being "match needle") should have been very simple to implement. Wide open metering, with the attendant need to stop down as the shutter is depressed, is a whole lot more complicated. SO, a simple "this isn't a CPU lens" decision when entering Aperture Preferred mode makes the shooting aperture whatever's there right now. If you want to stop it down (or up), the metering system could easily comply without knowing what setting is actually in use.
(Haven't had my morning tea yet - seems like in auto mode the camera will actually do a final check when the lens stops down, before letting the shutter fire, if something changes. That's kind of what I'm looking for - pick a shutter speed at the current aperture, whatever that is - just a little earlier so I can play with the shutter speed to match a needle.)
Oh well.... The current financial setup here (working on a bankruptcy) is going to keep me from buying another camera for a while, so I'll live with it. I did try some guessing - works adequately in good 1-over lighting, and indoor sports is about the only time you'd want a 500mm Cad in much less lighting. (Which I don't do anyway.) I do get to see the donuts in the viewfinder, too, sometimes - new experience. I've never had a Cad before.... Spiratone was about giving those long glass teles away back in the 70's.
I do like the camera, at least.... Kind of a family joke. A cousin of mine's a working professional, and showed up here one day to take pictures of family members. Sort of a vacation thing. Josh turned up with an early digital built around the F-series (can't recall the model) that was worth a good $10,000. I really wanted that thing! My $350 Casio wasn't even close. I waited.... Not that the D60 is anywhere close either, but at well under $1,000, it was close enough for me!
#8. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 7
There are very, very few non-CPU fixed-aperture lenses in existence, and I suspect that an even smaller proportion are in the hands of those who might buy a lower-end Nikon DSLR. It may be disappointing, but I'm not at all surprised that Nikon chose to omit this particular feature from the D60 and similar cameras.
#9. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 8
That there are very few fixed-aperture non-CPU lenses out there, I can't contest....
But I've got a few non-CPU lenses with adjustable apertures that don't "communicate" with the camera's metering system at all. As long as you're not trying to do wide-open metering (v.s. metering at whatever aperture the user sets on the lens) the camera doesn't need to know what the lens is up to. What you see is what you get , and the camera just picks an appropriate shutter speed, or lets you find one via a match-needle function.
(The D60's thumbwheel for shutter speed makes that very convenient.)
Not to mention being able to use (albeit at reduced functionality) the lenses I already had....
As I mentioned, I am upset to not find this simple a feature, but it's not the end of the world. Kind of a "WHAT?!" response here when I tried "aperture priority" and the camera insisted I didn't have a lens installed. Then, on "manual", no metering at all...
If I'd paid $350 for it, I guess "entry level" wouldn't bother me too much - Nikon not wanting to confuse new people with match needle metering, perhaps, but at the price I paid, a very basic feature to leave out, even if most people wouldn't bother with it.
But, this isn't a "Don't Buy A Nikon" thread, either.... More of a "don't buy that cheap Cad" .... I could have done worse. The two lenses I ended up with (a "package", both Nikon lenses - a short VR zoom and a long one - something like 35MM to 300MM in 35mm equivalence) are as good as I would ever need. I just wanted that Cad ....
#10. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 9
>...a very basic feature to leave out, even if most people >wouldn't bother with it.
I think that's the point - Nikon have to decide which features to leave out of low-end cameras in order to hit their price point. This one is an excellent candidate, because demand for it is likely to be low amongst the D60's target demographic.
This is by no means a new "problem", by the way: the F50 (N50) entry-level film SLR introduced in 1994 has exactly the same restriction.
#11. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 10
Price point is probably exactly why.... Just seems silly here until I start to think about some of the background level stuff....
I once had an IBM salesman respond to a "why can't it do this?" question with "it'd be trivial, but we'd spend a fortune changing the documentation".... (Imagine that - computers used to come with something more than a PDF ....) (OK, it was a much bigger computer .)
Then there was the flowcharting software I used to use once in a while. A comment in their manual to the effect that "we considered removing this feature, but figured that some hog farmer in Iowa is using it to count his stock"....
Just seems like switching to manual would let the CPU presume "what light you see is what you'll get" if it knows that there's no feedback from the lens - that's software, and software changes are cheap. 'Course, then there's the manual....
Oh well.... If I didn't really like the camera (and had a few bucks to spare), I'd fix it .... Could be worse. My daughter still is trying to steal the D60 from me. If I had the money....
#12. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 0
You've gotten good advice as to the reality of non-CPU lenses and also as to why non-CPU lenses aren't well supported on the D60 and other entry-spec bodies.
However, your experience here may actually be working against you. If you are like me, with a long history of film usage, it would simply not occur to you to simply take a picture, look at it and adjust the shutter speed and ISO to get a better/correct exposure and shoot again. In film days that'd have been a ridiculous waste of film, to say nothing of a slow turnaround. But now with digital you can see the situation three seconds later, adjust and have the shot ten seconds later. You can even delete the test shot and all you've lost is a tiny bit of electricity from the rechargeable battery. Of course it's not as instantaneous as aperture preferred auto, but...
Years ago I found myself in precisely this situation - 500/f8 non-CPU lens (although mine is a Tamron and I had a Nikkor too), a D100, and an interest in birding. Faced with the choice of not shooting or learning to cope, I discovered that it's actually not so hard to calibrate in a given lighting environment and then keep shooting in manual mode, just like we did back in the days with an Exacta VX-IIb or a non-metering Nikon F. Eventually I put enough nickels into one cookie jar to buy a body that does meter with such lenses, but in the meantime I got thousands of frames that I would never have gotten on film...
_____ Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member
My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!
#13. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 12
A little frustrating, since my old Pentaxes, and a couple of even older Exactas (as well as my N6006) can do this....
(Now, if I could remember what I did with the Exactas....)
Still, the "try it" mode isn't the end of the world.
Lots of film experience, way back when, involving the whole processing range - b&w, color, and transparencies, as well as Cibachrome. I think the "expense" issue of film stuck with me. Even though film is relatively cheap and convenient when we're not sending the stuff to the drug store, using a meter just works better .... I think my daughter's girlfriend got the Luna Pro....
(All I have left is the N6006 and a K-series Pentax, and, come to think of it, a 4x5 Crown Graphic. That one's only slightly younger than I am, and probably belongs in a museum. I probably should have kept the Exactas, too, on the same basis, but the two that work are great "student" cameras. One's a classic early-60's - can't think of the model #, and one's circa 1972, after they went to what amounts to a clone of the Pentax SPs. I wish I had one with the goofy meter - the one that looks a bit like a Nikon F metering prism - just for laughs. I don't think any of them actually worked, though .)
#14. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 13 Tue 06-Sep-11 06:11 PM by gkaiseril
The Nikon F Photomic and the Nikormat line used 'ears' on the lens to communicate the aperture information to the metering system through a locating pin. Their lenses can be modified to work with the Nikon dSLRs but they will not report the aperture setting to the camera's metering system since the dSLR line of bodies do not have the aperture locating pin used by the Nikon F Photomic or Nikormat line.
The Nikon dSLRs are designed to use the chip in the lens. If there is no chip, the camera can not control the lens.
I have lenses that will focus on my D200 and D70 that your D60 can not automatically focus. Your camera does not have a focus motor within the body that these lenses require and both the D200 and D70 have this motor within their bodies.
Certain features require a very specific interface be present on the lens and camera body and if either device is missing the appropriate interface one can not expect the combination to work automatically or "auto-magically".
#15. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 14
However, my basic question seems to devolve to:
If the camera can detect an incompatible lens (i.e., can't detect or control the aperture), why can't it just presume that the lens is at whatever shooting aperture we want (aperture priority works that way anyhow), and just meter the incoming light, and set a shutter speed to go with that, given the "ASA" setting in use?
Seems like just software....
Guess it's to keep us from shooting with no lens at all on the camera ....
Oh well, the camera's great, otherwise.... Now if I can keep my daughter from stealing it....
#16. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 15 Tue 06-Sep-11 09:12 PM by gkaiseril
The firmware/software needs data for calculations. No electrical contact, no chip, no information communicated to the cameras processing center.
Have you looked at pages 146 - 148 of your D60 manual?
Some more advanced dSLRs like the D7000 will let you enter the missing data for the manual lens. Thus these cameras have the minimal data needed for the necessary calculations. Just one of a couple reasons I bought a D200.
#17. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 15
>If the camera can detect an incompatible lens (i.e., can't >detect or control the aperture), why can't it just presume >that the lens is at whatever shooting aperture we want >(aperture priority works that way anyhow), and just meter the >incoming light, and set a shutter speed to go with that, given >the "ASA" setting in use?
Remember that the Aperture diaphragm is always wide open except when the DOF Preview button is pressed or just before the shutter is released, the stop down mechanism on the camera stops down the aperture diaphragm to the f stop set in the camera. Since the D60 does not have the mechanical linkage to sense the aperture setting on non-CPU lenses there is no way for the D60 to set the correct aperture.
>Seems like just software....
It requires more than just software. Software will work if the lens is chipped. Mechanical linkage is required for the camera to sense the aperture setting. Good Luck and Enjoy your Nikons!
#18. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 17
Your explanation is correct, except that since the camera is metering wide open, and can detect a non-CPU lens (at least well enough to laugh at me ), there's no reason it can't consider the present (wide open) aperture is the shooting aperture, and not worry about trying to change it.
It can still set the appropriate shutter speed....
Worst case would be a need to use the thumbwheel to set the viewing/metering/shooting aperture into the CPU. I can't see bothering with that.
You do lose wide-open metering & viewing, but that's probably not intolerable. We didn't used to have that anyway - OK, that was 1972, but....
I think I mentioned a tele I had with two aperture rings. One set the actual shooting aperture - for non-wide-open metering. The other one opened the lens back up for viewing. When you were ready to shoot, you turned that second ring back to the shooting aperture. The advantage was in not having to look to be sure you got back to the right setting. The disadvantage, well....
(Tri-X can save your backside sometimes if you forget.... I also found that I could process C41 films in B&W chemistry to get an effective ASA of something like 4000. Grains as big as footballs, but superb for available darkness surveillance work.)
My old Exactas had a preset lever on the lenses that you turned to "wide open" after metering. Pressing the shutter release closed the aperture. Pretty well idiot proof unless you tried to meter wide open, but you did have to crank the preset back open for focusing/viewing real fast sometimes.
No regrets, though, although once in a while I pick up the N6006 and remember all the fun I had with it. It just feels better .... Lots of film through that thing.... I used the D60 at my niece's wedding a couple years ago, though. The new flash is definitely better, the lenses slightly better (the VR feature was handy), and I didn't need a bearer to help carry the thing .... Sent the digital files to SnapFish. I don't think I printed a single frame here. (Which is kinda funny, 'cause I have three inkjets good enough for 3R or 4R prints, and that was all I really wanted. Snapfish is cheaper ....)
I did my brother-in-law's wedding (again, just as a guest) about 20 years ago, with the N4004. No problems at all, except that I was using a monster VHS camcorder, too, and my wife's cousin - about 21 at the time - and his dad both got seriously happy before the service, and I had to try to get the tape, take a few stills, and keep them from knocking both cameras off their tripods....
(I've shot "backup", as a guest, dozens of times - I work around the professionals, and work with them to be sure I don't muck up a shot, for example.)
#19. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 18
I'm not sure this debate is going anywhere...
The fact is that, for whatever reason, Nikon have chosen to omit this feature from all their lower-end SLR's for at least the last 15 years. I seriously doubt they are going to change their approach now, especially given the low probability that an owner of such a camera will want to use such a lens. That doesn't help you, of course, but that's the way it is.
The lens you mentioned with "two aperture rings" was of the type known as "preset", by the way. I had one myself. One chose one's aperture value with the main ring, metered the shot, then manually opened up using the secondary ring in order to frame and focus before stopping down to the pre-set value to take the shot. We worked a lot slower in those days!
#20. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 19
Yup, not going anywhere, but we're having fun.... (Or at least I am .)
You'd think I'd have remembered "preset", but I'm old....
(After all, I remember film....)
My cousin Mick (who owned the Nikkormat) got me into color work just after the Color Canoe was replaced by various drum (and simplified chemistry) techniques. Color wheel on the enlarger lens, and later a filter drawer in a D2V. Never raised the money for a dichroic colorhead. Mick dropped out of processing about then - color was still too much of a mess for him, and he didn't buy any drums. OTOH, I did....
The kicker was buying an enlarger. When I was quite young, I did some contact prints (127 film!), and never quite got going. About the week my dad tossed me out of the house (long story), I'd ordered that Exacta, and when it showed up, my apartment bathroom was perfect as a darkroom. This time, though I bought a cheap enlarger. Burned up a lot of money for the next couple years.... (Including the D2V.)
When my then-fiance and I decided I had to rent a bigger apartment, the darkroom basically didn't survive.
#22. "RE: Stupid lens on D60? (500mm Cad)" In response to Reply # 12
The 6006 is a later model and superior to the 8008 despite the numbers. I got one absolutely pristine off Ebay for 99 cents, and several more for $4.99 to $20. They are great. The later film cameras like the N65 are really easy to operate. I've got one sitting on my desk with a 60-300 Tokina trombone-zoom just waiting for a picture to come along. BTW the two-button reset on the Dseries is the film re-wind on the N65 (now you tell me).