I'm sure we have all noticed that more and more sellers on eBay, Nikonians, our Cafe, and other places are asking for a 1.5-3% premium to cover their Paypal fees when accepting payment via Paypal.
Well, I don't like it!
Now, this is not intended to point fingers at anyone in particular but at the trend generally. I buy many hundreds of items from eBay and other places every year as an antique photographica collector. I also sell and trade as part of the hobby. Paypal is so simple to use it is my favored way to pay and receive funds from my transactions.
I do not and will not ever charge a buyer for using Paypal as I think it is just part of the cost of doing business. So, in that light, I have started to bypass items that I would normally buy if the seller wants that additional fee.
In short, I don't charge a fee and I won't pay a fee!
#4. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 3
That would be the way to do it. If you need $95 for an item and the Paypal is $2 or so and that 2 buck is so important, then tell me you want $97 or $98 and the fee is transparent and we're both happy.
#5. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 3
Although I agree with Mike in principle, to answer your shipping question - if I pay by check/cash I get one price, if paying with Paypal I get charged another (higher) price. If I choose FedEx over USPS for shipping I pay more but get a faster (better/reliable etc) service. That is the crux of the issue, paying by Paypal doen't get you a better lens/camera/whatever over paying by check but you (as the purchaser) are expected to pay for the convience of the seller getting their money faster. To me that is plain wrong.
It is also against Paypals terms and conditions that sellers don't pass on their charges directly to the purchaser. If it's an item on eBay, complain and see the item being removed or the seller not accept Paypal!!
#6. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 0
I have to agree c/Mr. Parker! -Charging 1.5% to 3% is very high for little work. -The service I have recieved from PayPal which is owned by Ebay is very poor (from my past bad experience). The associates lack knowledge about their services and tend to lead you in circles stating that it's Ebay not them and Ebay blames PayPal-so around the circle I went. -There are other ways to collect money c/o paying for such high fees. -I would'nt mind paying some percent of fee if there was Customer Service that came c/it!
#8. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 7
It is clearly stated on the PayPal site that a seller should not pass on PayPal fees to the buyer explicitly. If you include verbiage in your listing that you are charging a fee to recover PayPal fees you are in violation of their terms.
However, you are free to charge a handling fee when selling an item on this board. Or, as someone else pointed out, you can price your item to include all costs to you to get payed and to get the item from your hands to the buyer. These are simply acceptable business practices. In the end you are not going to sell something for less than you have predetermined is the least you will accept. In reality all costs of doing business are passed on to the consumer, whether they be disclosed or not.
Max Power St. Paul, US Registered since 13th Jan 2006
Mon 12-Jun-06 02:15 PM
#9. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 8
I am somewhat ambivilent about it. I don't like the sellers on ebay adding handling charges because a lot of people will send a check and still end up paying the fees.
While the charge is real to the seller, it is also real to a million other businesses out there. When you go to a department store or a restaurant, do they add a charge for CC processing? The only thing close I have ever seen is a discount for cash at gas stations, but that pretty much went away with pay-at-the-pump. And make no mistake, most people on eBay are running a business.
I would rather see the sellers just pay the fees and not pass them along. You would think the convenience of having instant money, and not having to go to the bank and wait for a check to clear would be of some value to them, without getting petty and passing it along.
As a seller, I don't ask for the fee. As a buyer, I may or may not buy an item becuase of the fee, depending on price.
It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.
It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.
Dave C Dunfermline, UK Registered since 10th Mar 2002
Mon 12-Jun-06 02:55 PM
#10. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 9
"When you go to a department store or a restaurant, do they add a charge for CC processing?"
In short, yes. It is built into their overheads and you are charged accordingly. In fact, if you pay cash you may think that you are being overcharged but banks charge businesses differently, and higher, than the public so that costs businesses too.
People/companies will charge to cover their costs, whether you are aware of it or not.
Paypal is not only to get the money to the seller quicker. It also means that the buyer will recieve their new goods quicker as a result. Sending cheques and waiting is always an option.
There's no such thing as a free ticket
Always look on the bright side of life de dum de dum........... Dave C Scottish Nikonian My Gallery
#11. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 9
I think what the original poster is complaining about is the PERCEPTION of being "gouged" by the seller when they demand that the buyer pay the paypal fees. As others have pointed out, Ebay/Paypal expressly forbids charging extra for Paypal fees.
IMHO, it speaks volumes as to the seller's disposition, just like when they strip the lens of all caps,tripod mount, etc. before selling it, ask for $20 in shipping when actual cost is $7.95 etc. The bottom line is that I don't want to do business with folks who nickel and dime every last cent out of a deal.
I've had several sellers offer to split the Paypal fees--obviously a much more reasoned approach as both buyer and seller benefit from a faster, secure transaction.
"No photographer is as good as the simplest camera."
alanglazier Rohnert Park, US Registered since 14th Oct 2004
Mon 12-Jun-06 03:48 PM
#13. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 12
I don't mind absorbing Paypal fees for smaller items when it just amounts to a few dollars.
On higher ticket items, it starts to add up to a fair amount of money. Frankly, I am usually not in a huge hurry to get the money. So I would be happy to take a check or money order if it means keeping the price down $20 or $30 or whatever. So at that point the benefit falls on the buyer. If they want the transaction to move more quickly, I think they should pay the extra fee.
On the other side, when I am a buyer, I would prefer to have the option of whether I pay extra to have things move more quickly.
Save money, or save time. I think the person who wants to save time should get saddled with the extra expense, just as would happen with expedited shipping.
DrJay32 Colorado Springs, US Nikonian since 12th Mar 2003
Mon 12-Jun-06 03:48 PM
#14. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 12
The best part of PayPal is that it lets an individual like myself accept pretty much any form of payment, including credit cards.
Ten years ago, if I sold you a lens, I had to wait for a check or money order and (if a check) hope for it to clear. If I had a $3000 item, how convenient is it for the buyer to be forced to pay cash?
PayPal actually adds convenience to the buyer and seller. Buyers send money instantly and can choose to pay via a credit card. Sellers get their money right away and can therefore ship items almost immediately.
Anyone who has worked for a company that does lots of shipping knows that there are markups at every stage in the sales pipeline. There is no way that it actually costs someone like B&H $20.00 to ship a 1.0 lb package to you via UPS ground, but they do it anyway. That's just business.
PayPal fees are not fun, but they are a cost of doing business.
#15. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 0
I agree that sellers should not visibly charge a paypal fee. If the cost of not having the item in time outweighs the paypal fee, I'll pay it, but you're right, I will exhaust all alternatives and I would not be as pleased with the transaction. I am in the process of purchasing another item here, and the $25 paypal fee was not considered. I opted to send a bank draft which is a minor inconvenience but I don't want to pay extra for seller's cost of doing business. At least I was given the option to use paypal or send a draft/money order.
Regarding shipping, I am usually a buyer and I see that as my cost, not the seller's.
#16. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 0
Good post & topic, and I understand your point.
When I offer any equipment here for sale, I try to offer it at a very (low) competitive price compared to what the items are selling for elsewhere (like e-Bay) to help my fellow Nikonians. I often include S&H in my (one) price, and have sometimes added a note to include 3% for Paypal payments to help avoid any further loss in my already low price.
I offer to accept peronsal checks, money orders, cashiers checks in my sales without any additonal fee. So people that choose to use Paypal are doing so for the convenience/speed (and additional security to some point) of the transaction process. And those who are willing to take a bit more time in mailing their payment will avoid any additional fee. Their choice...
When I sell on e-Bay, I usually factor in ~3% to the min bid/reserve price, & add a S&H charge that's added to the final (winning bid) amount. I don't ask bidders to add 3% for using Paypal because they many not include it when going through the Paypal process.
Paypal is a good service, but the seller gets "dinged" in the sale for the buyer using the service. I guess sellers could offer a 3% discount to buyers paying by mail via cashiers check/money order/personal check. Sound fair?
silverbowff Spokane and Vail, US Registered since 31st Oct 2005
Mon 12-Jun-06 06:22 PM
#17. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 16
I had a retail store for several years and in order to keep the doors open we had to include all costs and expenses in the retail price of our goods. Those expenses included rent, utilities, consumables, shipping on goods received, license fees, insurance, wages, employment taxes, inventory taxes, interest on business loan, bank fees which included credit card fees, etc. All these were passed on to the consumer. Every business has to do this or they die. PayPal charges 3% to the seller if he has a premier account. This is more than PayPal pays for its credit card fee to the bank because they do a huge volume of business with the credit card vendors. Small businesses pay a higher cost to the credit card vendors because they do a smaller volume. Those fees are somewhat negotiable based on volume and business history with the vendor.
Today costs are going up for everyone. Packaging materials, boxes, fuel, bank fees, etc. I buy and sell on eBay and other venues and I factor in these costs when I set a price on an item. I want to offer it at fair price including the expense of listing and selling the item. All the shipping vendors have been raising their rates and even adding surcharges for fuel costs so keep that in mind when you get the cost for shipping.
#18. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 17
Right on Jim. I grew up in a "retail" family. Everything you state is the God-honest truth. You cannot absorb any costs for any length of time and expect to operate profitably. ALL costs are passed on to the consumer, again either as an add-on or built in to the final price.
Czajka Northbrook, US Registered since 24th Mar 2006
Mon 12-Jun-06 08:41 PM
#19. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 18
Unfortunately, we live in such a credit card oriented society that anyone who pays cash these days for anything is basically paying 3% too much. Every price in a department store is increased at least 3% because the store is not going to take a 3% loss everytime someone purchases an item with a credit card.
American Express, I believe charges businesses 5% on transactions.
The reason gas used to be 3% less for customers paying cash is that they were the only business I ever knew of to price things right. I think most people thought they were being penalized for using a credit card in this situation. The truth was that the people paying cash were not being penalized unfairly as they are now.
The thing is you can pay cash directly from a bank account via Paypal and the seller will get the entire proceeds. At least I think it is that way. When I sold a couple of items on this board I got the entire amount deposited in my account. However, when I went to sell things on Ebay, I had 3% taken out of every transaction. At first I thought they were taking the final value fee out of the proceeds, then I received Ebay invoices.
I am pretty meticulous about money and how things work, but I must confess that I was always kind of in the dark about Paypal and Ebay fees. Nothing is documented in an obvious way. And lets face it, it is not that complex if only they told you everything up front.
For instance, I really don't know why I was charged 3% on the proceeds from my Ebay sales. Was it because the customer paid via credit card, or did they charge 3% because I opened a Premier Account so I could withdraw more than $500 in a month?
Paypal just says I received an instant payment. But, they never indicated to me if it was a cash or credit transaction.
But, bottom line from my perspective, I think the buyer should pay the fees if he is using a credit card.
#20. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 19
To clarify: Anyone with a Premier PayPal account automagically gets dinged 3% regardless of where the sender funded it from (unless it's an eCheck, where I believe the max is $5?). Again, once you have a Premier PayPal account, it makes absolutely no difference where the sender funds his/her payment from -- the seller will be dinged 3% (eChecks nonwithstanding).
If you have a Personal PayPal account, you CANNOT accept payments from credit cards, but you don't get dinged 3% -- and you can only receive a maximum amount per month.
It doesn't matter if it was an eBay auction or a Nikonians transaction (or anywhere else for that matter). If it's sent through PayPal, the receiving account determines whether or not a payment is (a): received and (b): charged the 3% fee.
There are additional fees for accepting international payments, as well.
#21. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 20
Now that's a good Paypal info summary. That for sure clearifies some issues.
As to the fee markup and the ranting, why not just leave it alone and let the market decides what's gonna work. If the buyer and seller agrees on certain price and terms, so be it. If as a seller, your item doesn't sell at your asking price, you have the option to do something about it; same for the buyer, who benefits from the convenience of charging your purchase to a piece of plastic and wait till next month to worry about it, plus some added protection. As a buyer, you do have the option to main in a check or MO, which option is offered by most sellers. So leave it to the market. There are more important things to rant about.
tkerugger North Liberty, US Registered since 12th Oct 2004
Wed 14-Jun-06 02:22 AM
#23. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 22
Here's my take on the PayPal situation:
I have a Premier account, thus I get charged a fee on each transaction. However, I also have a (free) PayPal debit card, and I get cash back on EVERY purchase I make with it. I believe its currently 1.5% back on each purchase. Also, I have a PayPal Money Market account, which is currently earning 4.73%
So, the fees that I get charged I eventually make back with the cash back reward on my PayPal debit card (which is credited instantly, btw) and the interest from the money market account. I NEVER add an additional percentage on to someone buying from me. I can't imagine stopping at my local Target store, and, when I pull out my Visa, having them add a 3% surcharge to my order. I expect that to be included in the price at the register, and I can honestly say that I have not purchased items from fellow Nikonians for the same reason.
Just my opinion.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."
ScottL78 White Plains, NY, US Nikonian since 23rd Apr 2006
Wed 14-Jun-06 03:56 AM
#24. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 23
My take on paying a seller paypal fees, and charging a buyer for paypal fees...
When I sell something, I would rather have the cash right away. Half the time I don't even check off the box that says "Money Order" normally buyers send an email asking me if I will accept a money order. I tell them I prefer paypal. But if they must, then so be it. Therefore it is a convenience for me, why pass it on to the buyer.
When I buy something. I can settle with the buyer charging 3%. I pay with paypal because when I buy something, I want it yesterday. So paying with paypal normally assures me the item will ship in a day or 2 instead of 2 to 3 weeks for them to receive check, and check clearing.
But I saw in this section 2 batteries being sold. $10.00 shipping, and $10.00 paypal fees... That is completely obsurd. Shipping cost no more than $4.50 priority, and paypal for $100 purchase is no more than $3.00. So the seller is over charging by $12.50... I would never buy from someone like this.
The things I stay away from are the items that completely over charge for shipping. Especially those that mark down the item excessively and boost the shipping through the roof. And then at the bottom you see. "We cannot refund cost of shipping" So if the product is defective, and worth $500. But the seller sold it for $400 with $100 shipping. You are screwed out of $100...
Just sell the damn thing for the correct price. And charge the correct shipping. Enough trying to bleed buyers dry. Alot of these sellers have very little over head, without a store front, and without all the bills that come with a store front. This is where they should be taking advantage of being able to lower prices, and make more business... Sell in quantity, build a customer base, and make a load of money.
Every time someone buys something from me, they are more than pleased and sometimes shocked at my shipping costs... And when asked, I tell them. "Why over charge?" Priority shipping cost nothing for packaging, nothing for tape, and I normally use left over bubble rap and styrofoam from other purchases of my own.
gpoole Farmington Hills, US Nikonian since 14th Feb 2004
Wed 14-Jun-06 11:33 AM
#25. "RE: Paypal Fees - A Small Rant" In response to Reply # 24
My take on the low selling price and high shipping is a bit different - at least when it's being sold on eBay. I think the seller is avoiding some of the eBay commision. eBay's commision is based on the selling price only and does not include shipping, PayPal's cut is based on total price including shipping.
edited because I make too many typos.
Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera. D4, D810, D300 (720nm IR conversion), D90, F6, FM3a (black), FM2n (chrome) YashicaMat 124, Graflex Speed Graphic 4x5 My Nikonians Gallery & Our Chapter Gallery